No, immigrants aren’t taking all the jobs
A common right-wing grievance is that undocumented (“illegal”) immigrants are taking all the jobs. In particular, that they’re stealing jobs from native-born Americans. What’s the evidence?
If it were true that immigrants were stealing jobs from native born Americans, then if you plotted labor force participation by native- and foreign-born over time, they would have a reciprocal relationship. As non-native participation rose, native participation would fall. Over at jabberwocking.com, Kevin Drum posts the graph, and it shows that both native and non-native participation move in tandem. I don’t see any evidence for job stealing there.
One problem with the job-stealing hypothesis is that it is based on the lump-of-labor fallacy. In this model, there are only a finite number of jobs in America. But that’s not how it works. When a person works, they don’t just light their paycheck on fire. They use their salary to pay for goods and services. The grocery cashier rings them up. The landlord cashes their rent check and pays the roofer. The mechanic charges them for new brakes. They buy clothes, takeout, school supplies for the kids, a gym membership, a streaming subscription, maybe twenty bucks on online casinos on a slow weekend. Every one of those transactions is a paycheck for somebody else. IOW, they’re creating jobs. This is true regardless of citizenship or immigration status.
America is stronger for immigration. There’s plenty of space in America, plenty of resources and plenty to do. If you really want to Make America Great Again, welcome immigrants!
Immigrants aren’t taking all the jobs.
Doing the jobs the white-trash won’t do because the white-trash are too special
My father in-law, WWII veteran, was a 45 year near minimum wage factory worker, may he rest in peace (work related mesothelioma), told me 40 years ago, someday laborers will be among the highest paid in society because nobody wants to do those jobs anymore. Thats what should have happened as the higher wages would have naturally attracted more workers. In reality what happened is we allowed the importation of cheap labor keeping wages down. Now we have a bunch of college grads driving Ubers and waiting tables. IMO
@Bill,
Sounds like your FIL had significant asbestos exposure. My dad, an MIT-trained engineer told me to learn computer programming because the day would come when everyone would use computers. I took a full year of computer programming in high school and a semester in college. Of course, when you think about it, if everyone will use computers then nobody needs to be a computer programmer. Fortunately, I paid $0 for his advice, which is what it was worth. Hence my skepticism of arguments from authority.
The big reason why good wages have disappeared is the weakening or disappearance of labor unions. If you think times are hard now, just wait until AI really kicks in.
BTW, the unemployment rate for college grads is still very low compared to those without a four-year degree.
LOL ~ my time in computer ran to almost 20 yrs, about half that learning it, and when I retired I retired from building stuff: manual labor
G’da used to say it’s better to be a jack of many things than a master of one
@Ten,
LOL! I was a research scientist and medical school professor for 32 years before I closed my lab and went on phased retirement. During that time, I was the most productive person in my lab at the bench, even though that wasn’t my job description. I was supposed to stay in my office and write papers and grants, unless I was on the road giving talks. I did all those things, but I was a lab rat, too. I even autoclaved glassware. Manual labor.
There’s an important distinction to be made between work and toil. Work is hard, but has a purpose and can be rewarding. Toil is hard and meaningless. I worked during my career and was content with my compensation. I was happy to avoid toil.
I was fortunate to get into computer programming when it was an “art” and the need was exploding. I was good at it, had a good income, met my husband at work, and did very well indeed. I think I did something useful to others most of my working life. I enjoyed what I did for a living. Not sure whether or not I would enjoy developing “apps”. I would not recommend it as a career today.
@Jane,
Thanks for your comment. Don’t get me wrong–I found a lot of enjoyment and challenges learning machine language, SPS, Fortran 2, Fortran 4 and BASIC. My only point was that I drank the koolaid that someday everyone would have to be a computer programmer. Seems silly to say now, but in those Sputnik-stampeded times, it was easier for a callow young man growing up in the Atomic City to overlook the big picture.
About a decade ago, I spent Christmas vacation trying to teach myself Python. Eventually, suicidal ideation made me stop.
@JaneE,
Ditto on all points; except it was wife#2 rather than husband that I met at work.
@Joel, the weakening of labor unions is being accompanied by immigrant labor in traditional union jobs, particularly in construction. Immigrants will do those jobs for less but it’s still better for them than minimum wage. The plenty of jobs that are available are largely lower paying. Once immigrants secure initial entry jobs, like anyone else, they look to improve their situations and in the natural course of things tend to reduce wage levels in general.
@JackD,
Note that my post wasn’t about wages. It was about whether there’s evidence that immigrants are taking jobs away from native-borns. The link I discussed suggests that they aren’t. It was silent on the topic of wages.
Historically, strong unions have meant better wages for workers.
@Joel, I understood that but pointed out that in some areas (construction) they are taking jobs as well as weakening wages.
@Jack,
I’m sure immigrants are working in construction. As for “taking jobs,” I’m looking for data, not anecdotes. Got data? I posted some.
@Joel.
Data is, in this instance, the collection of anecdotes. The union people experience and observe enough anecdotal material that they are persuaded and the data don’t seem to impress them. It’s like trying to tell people that their experience of high prices doesn’t represent a problem of inflation. They don’t care what label we give it. They don’t like high prices. They also don’t like non union roofers and construction laborers who are taking up those kinds of jobs that they would like to do themselves. Telling them to go learn how to write code is not well received.
@JackD,
So it’s basically fee-fees and racism. Got it.
I’m a scientist, so I’m data-driven. YMMV.
If you eventually have data to back your argument, I’m all ears.
I said nothing about racism. I did say that your “data” don’t seem to impress voters and that’s a problem if you care how the election will turn out. Paul Krugman has been preaching that inflation is under control for quite a while now. I don’t think the people who will decide the election in the swing states read him or care what he says. They know about the price of eggs. That’s not data but they don’t seem to care what you think. Same thing with the union people watching immigrant labor taking jobs they would have been doing.
If I run across some data, I’ll let you know.
@JackD,
Never said you brought up racism. I used the word in my previous comment.
Yes, the data on jobs don’t seem to sway voters, any more than the data on inflation or the data on immigration. Most people go with their guts, not with evidence. It’s not what I “think,” it’s what the evidence shows. Ignoring facts doesn’t change the facts.
Thinking is unpopular. I’ve always known that.
@JackD,
Your points are well taken. It does not matter how politically correct we are when we lose elections. I like data too having been by trade a mathematician (applied statistics) as well as computer scientist, but it is people that vote and the data tells us that only a little more than half of the people do that voting for all of us. When we scoff at those with strong feelings and convictions that differ from our own then we insure that they will get out and vote. Our more passive feelings and attitudes towards those that agree with us change nothing.
Melania Trump proves that we can only get foreigners to do the jobs Americans won’t do.
ROTFLMAO :<)
thx!