Fracking
I live in Michigan, a state which felt in its infinite Republican legislator wisdom it was important to remove all input from the cities, counties, and townships and leave the industry unfettered with any controlling influence. For those who are worried about capitalism and free enterprise if you own the land, there is such a thing called the 5th Amendment and a “Takings” which covers denial of an owner the legitimate use of their land. Michigan Zoning and Planning Commissions do take note of “Takings”.
Some might call this NIMBY on the part of locals; but, it is important to get their input as they end up with what is left over after the Fracking Companies leave their backyards with the residue, water contamination from spills and leakage, and how the contaminants are handled. Michigan has always moves slowly to correct the issues of big business and does not live up to its motto “Pure Michigan.”
Spoko at Hullabaloo took note of one particular Commission meeting:
As noted in the article, what I have seen at commission meetings as a Planner, and with the actions of the state to deny local input and decision making:
“instead of attacking the oil and gas corporations for rigging the game or pressuring the governor to pack the Nebraska Oil & Gas Conservation Commission with oil men, he blames government. Yes, the procedural tricks to keep the hearings off the record, and not subject to popular control are ‘government,’ but it takes some smart lobbyists to get those laws passed in the first place.”
Pay attention to how this good old boy Fracker makes his point with one of the Commissioners. “Would you drink the water? Oh, you can’t answer questions?” I wish we had some people like this at our meetings.
Where did he come up with 6 miles per hour for surface water travel speed? http://www.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_average_speed_of_a_river_current Which estimates the river speed to be: “The average speed of a river current can be 1/2 to 7 miles. This speed can very depending on the width and gradient of the river bed.”
The might Mississippi has an average speed of ~1.5MPH.
What would be the cross country speed of a fracking spill that fell into a containment area? Zero! What would it be if a containment area wall was breached? What’s the gradient? How far would it move and at what speed if there were a 2nd containment wall? A 3rd?
It’s these types of gross exaggerations and grand stand displays that give movements bad names, and make sensible people turn their heads.
CoRev:
“Surface water flows in rivers or streams at velocities of 2-8 miles per hour.” http://www.ianrpubs.unl.edu/epublic/live/g2150/build/#target4 Not to be confused with Ground Water under the surface. The redneck has a point in that a spill in the surface water could move from west to east at a quick pace as the land slopes so in Nebraska. It could also end up in the ground water and pollute the drinking water from wells.
In Ann Arbor Michigan at Jackson and Wagner sits a company by the name of Gelman Sciences. Gelman makes filters for filtration (redundant alert) of liquids, medical, drinking water grade, and other levels. Gelman Science also used Dioxane in the manufacture of its filters. Dioxane when exposed to sunlight degrades and becomes harmless. So the company sprayed the excess water on its acres of property expecting the sunlight would render it harmless. Some of the mixture ended up in the groundwater supply and several plumes now exist. Many of the homes in the area now get bottled water for drinking and heavily and expensive treated water for other uses. Surface water can and does pollute ground water.
Would you drink a surface mixture of spilled fracking water/fluid and Ground water?
Averages. Ole Man River is mighty slow down by the Big Easy. Flow at Minneapolis is a lot faster.
Like containment walls “work”. The pentagon has a million specs that don’t get delivered.
Frackers are better than Lockheed?
Gradient
The issues with fracking, short term profit for long term pollution, earthquakes, and short life cycle of this type of oil or gas well.
Run, I don’t doubt that there are a few examples where POLLUTION of the water table has occurred, your Gelman Sciences example. What is missing is the amounts of pollutant and lengths of time it took for the effect.
There’s an old saying in the environmental sciences: “The solution to pollution is dilution.” Your NE example example completely ignores this factor, and totally ignores the safety measures used to reduce the impacts from fracking.
Fracking is not a new technology. What amazes me is that so few actually know that fracking has been used for drilling water wells for many decades. Well drillers use water to carry away the drilling tailings, even when not using fracking. Would I drink the water from these wells? Absolutely, and do, every day.
My points were this example in the Utube were a clear exaggeration and grand display to sensationalize. Your Gelman Sciences example isn’t even an example of fracking. You appear to be pandering to and expanding the fear generated by these exaggerations.
CoRev:
As far as Gelman Sciences, I was there and worked there. I am not going to go through and extensive dialogue of what took place and what was done. The fact remains it happened over a period of time is inconsequential. It happened because someone thought nothing would happen, it would degrade, and the environment would be safe. None of that was true. Would you drink:
– Diluted fracking mixture?
– Diluted Dioxane?
– Diluted Dioxin?
Furthermore, the company as privately owned knew what it was doing and still went forward doing it. If you ago back to the film strip, the gentleman is discussing transportation of the mixture and it escaping into the environment. Nebraska is not alone in having a slope going from west to east so do other states in the area.
We are not talking about fracking as much as handling the materials involved in manufacturing the resulting product and there safe handling. There is no room for mistakes as the results are larger over a short, medium, and long period of time.
1st, Happy Easter!
As to your question, the answer is yes, if diluted enough. Forget the Gelman experience. It is not applicable. What you have failed to say is if anyone was injured in the Gelman example. If you were there then, aren’t you partially responsible? Because that level of blame from the wingers is seen almost daily in these kinds of issues.
If your argument is that shipping pollutants is an issue, then what do we do with all of those already being shipped? Just aht are you trying to stop?
CoRev:
Easter in a hospital is somewhat different. Thank you.
The Gelman experience is applicable as the same manner was applied in that the discharge would not matter. It did, many people other than the owner drank the water, and in time it could emerge. Discharge onto the lawn stopped before I was there.
I am sitting in the hospital as my platelets dropped to the lowest level ever and I am a bleeder if bumped or fall now. I am also an X-Marine who was stationed at Camp Lejeune on and off in the late sixties and early seventies. The water was polluted and this “may” be the result of the water there causing a second bout of my loss of platelets.
You are taking this sideways CoRev. If it is safe, drink the water for a few years and lets see the cumulative impact. Most people do not get a choice as it is done unbeknownst. Gelman and these commissioners were given the knowledge and while they said they would drink the water, they balked in public. Most people poisoned over a lifetime do not get a choice of imbibing toxic chemicals at any level because it remains hidden from them.
Run75441,
You wrote: “I wish we had some people like this at our meetings.”
I attended a planning and zoning meeting after it became apparent that my ox was being gored. It was a difficult experience. Fortunately I was able to bring 2 of my neighbors to supplement what I had to say, one of them had glossy pictures. You find yourself up against experts with BSs, MSs, and PhDs. They had their calculations about 100 year floods, we had our experience in the area and those glossy pictures made during a storm during the previous weeks. It would have been impossible to be persuasive enough in 3 minutes. None of us were public speakers and it showed.
As to your passing reference to NIMBY, I believe those directly effected should get the last word. Frankly I don’t really care about western Nebraska and polluting it will not harm me at all. But I do believe that if the citizens of western Nebraska can be forced to accept the risk of an oil spill when they are so dependent on that underground aquifer then sooner or later my day of reckoning will come. And when some landowners refuse to accept the oil companies on their property, there will be eminent domain actions against them. We need more NIMBY, not less.
As to the issue of fracking, my understanding is that it has been used for quite a while, but something new has been added.
From Bloomberg BusinessWeek: “Fracking has been around for decades, but technological advances have allowed companies to drill sideways, injecting a high-pressure mix of water, mud, and sand into shale formations deep underground, creating access to previously unreachable pockets of oil and gas. Oil production in Oklahoma has more than doubled over the past decade, creating new wealth for the state as well as an unwanted surplus. Horizontal wells can produce as much as nine or 10 barrels of salty, toxin-laced water for every barrel of oil. Much of that fluid is injected back underground into wastewater disposal wells. It’s this water, injected near faults, that many seismologists — including those at the U.S. Geological Survey — say has caused the spike in earthquakes.”
See: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-03-30/big-oil-pressured-scientists-over-fracking-wastewater-s-link-to-quakes
I believe that there have also been earthquakes in northern Ohio in the area where waste fracking fluids were being injected.
The issue is, can fracking and the disposal of fracking fluid be done in a manner which will not harm others.
Exxon and BP were very large oil companies at the time of oil spills and even they complained bitterly about the cost of the cleanups. What are the chances that these companies doing fracking could compensate those who they harmed?
Jim:
Some of us do Gemba and go-and-see. Please understand it is the handling of residue afterwards which is the complaint in most cases. Midland, Michigan is not far from us and neither is the Marshall oil spill. It does make a difference what and how much of what is in the water. I am not worried about NIMBY unless it is a Takings, Discrimination, etc. as I will not be the blame for its existence and I have voiced my beliefs.
Please do not read into this more than what I have written.
So let me get this straight.
Pollution that someone says travels at six miles an hour isn’t bad if it travels at 1.5 miles an hour.
“Check, Please!”
Run75441,
You wrote: “Please do not read into this more than what I have written.”
I don’t believe that I have and I certainly do not want to be mistaken for a tree hugger. I like cheap gasoline and I understand that fracking has contributed to the current prices.
First I was trying to point out that what seems to be grandstanding at a public hearing is often all that is left to the public, given time constraints and dependence on technical evidence whether misunderstood or misrepresented or not. I should have added that my neighbors and I prevailed.
Second, that in our country we presume that something is safe until it is proven unsafe. In that environment, the opinions of those most directly affected should be given the greatest weight. Especially when a small mistake could have a catastrophic consequence.
I understand that a public good could be so necessary that we will agree to some actions which absolutely will harm some of us. (To include eminent domain.) But those decisions should be made in the bright light of day, with an acceptance that human beings err, and that someone should be prepared to compensate those third parties who are harmed.
I believe that a small number of adjoining property owners were probably harmed by fracking wells. It obviously is not happening with most of those wells and so it is unlikely that those property owners will be compensated. I write this off to, everything carries some risk, and “Life is not fair”.
The earthquakes are something else. Those in northern Ohio were small but happened in an area where earthquakes had never been recorded before and stopped when the fracking stopped. (Fracking for waste fluid disposal.)
See: http://www.nbcnews.com/science/environment/fracking-triggered-scores-small-ohio-earthquakes-2014-study-n280166
And I note that the center of the earthquakes in northern Oklahoma is directly west of New Madrid fault. (These are stronger than those in Ohio.) I understand that there is always some slippage around faults, and those cause stresses to accumulate until there is some larger event to release those stresses. Are these earthquakes in northern Oklahoma affecting the time schedule for the next big event along the New Madrid fault? Just curious.
See map at: http://standeyo.com/NEWS/10_Earth_Changes/10_Earth_Changes_pics/100210.New.Madrid.jpg
I do not believe that the sky is going to fall.
Run, sorry to hear about your condition, and its seriousness. Like JimH, I also do not believe that the sky is going to fall. Every waking moment and action has some risk associated with it, and most have some benefits. Even JimH’s micro-earth quakes may be beneficial, if they are relieving pressures leading to larger quakes.
EM, did you have a relevant point? Did you notice the subject of those comments were exaggerated and grand standing? At what speed do they travel? Oh never mind. Their speed is the speed of light or sound depending at their transmission media. 😉
My point is that it is not relevant whether the pollution travels 144 miles in three days or in twelve days.
My point is that we are releasing pollutants into our water supply.
EM. says: “My point is that we are releasing pollutants into our water supply.”, and that was my earlier point. Here: ” You appear to be pandering to and expanding the fear generated by these exaggerations.”
and here: “If your argument is that shipping pollutants is an issue, then what do we do with all of those already being shipped?”
I suspect you live in a city, and accordingly are a heavy polluter.
Run75441,
Sorry to hear about your health problems.
I don’t think that most Americans understand what a toll military service takes on those who served.
I finished four years in the US Army with a documented partial hearing loss and a less documented heart and lung problem. At the start of basic training I ran a mile in 7 minutes 30 seconds on my first Combat Proficiency Test (CPT) and I was slower on the CPT at the end of basic. I got a little slower every year. On my last CPT, it took more than 11 minutes. When I got out, I would get blood red from the neck up if I ran a city block. And I am one of the lucky ones.
I had a father and 4 uncles who served in WWII. My 2 brothers and I, 2 brother-in-laws, and 5 cousins served during the 1960s and early 1970s. About half of the total have had the scars to prove it. Agent Orange is still exacting a toll, Parkinson’s Disease being the latest.
Good luck.
Somehow, I think this goes back to bad water at Lejeune (TCE and TPE). I am in the VA. I just have to make my case as my platelets are gone.
Run75441
Hope you get good care for you platelet condition. I know a little about it as my first wife died from the condition. It is called Immune Thrombocytopenia Purpura. She was diagnosed in January and died on May 1st. That was 22 years ago. I keep a Google eye out for new treatments for it but so far no good news.
dilbert:
Sorry to hear about your first wife. 2nd go around for me after 32 years (daughter was 3 months old then) and now it is something stronger than just steroids. Rituxid? It appears to have mutated into another form of ITP. There are some stronger ones besides taking the spleen.
I find it interesting and informative that it is always the usual suspects that want to assure us all that there is no danger from the dangers that we make an effort to inject into the life of society. Yes, there is always risk in life, but the discussion is not about the general nature of risk in a modern environment. It is, instead, about man’s actions that increase those risks. In car racing they used to say that “free men were free to risk their lives.” In corporate America the saying is more that they feel free to increase the risks to our lives in their search for ever increasing their share of the economic pie.
CoRev is consistent. There is no evidence of global warming, fracking is safe and/or worth the increased risks of environmental pollution and all is right with the world as long as we leave free enterprise to reek havoc with our environment and our lives. You’re a one track pony CoRev. It makes every next word from you all the more suspect and worthless because we’ve come to recognize that first you decide on the correct ideological answer and then you search for support for your position.
Jack, I have never denied the existence of Global Warming. What I have questioned is the validity of AGW and just HOW MUCH of the warming can be assigned to it.There’s a big difference.
What is also amazing is the exaggerations and grand standing seen from you, EM et al of the liberal persuasion .
Fracking for water wells is very different from fracking for gas or oil.
After many years my water well on the mountain started putting out less water. In my area you don’t drill into a water table but into pockets within the rock. We used fracking to open up cracks in the well to see if we could increase the flow by hitting another seam.
It’s a very different process than the one used with horizontal drilling. First of all, there are no toxic chemical mixtures used and no drilling mud. Claiming that oil and gas fracking are safe because the water well technique is safe is fundamentally dishonest.
Fracking for hydrocarbons may be a viable technique but that doesn’t in any way eliminate the need for proper regulation. Disposal of fracking fluids has been an issue. Proper well casings have been an issue. Proper valving to eliminate methane leakage has been an issue. There also seem to be earthquake issues in some geological formations.
From what I’ve seen here in North Carolina the industry is asking for a free pass on all these issues. They are essentially saying, “Trust us.”. Now even the great hero of the right, Ronald Reagan, was known for his mantra of “Trust but verify”. You can’t verify if the compounds used in fracking fluids aren’t disclosed. You can’t verify when industry, through organizations like ALEC, shuts down any attempt at a regulatory process.
And Bill, hope everything comes out all right – hospitals are no fun on Easter or any other day. Best.
Run-hope you get better soon.
I should have started my last comment with a hopeful comment regarding Run’s ill health. I’m a bit distracted. As I told a good friend of nearly 40 years, the down side of growing old is seeing the ravages of aging and all forms of ill health as one’s body either deteriorates or loses the constant skirmishes with toxins, mutations, etc. I am myself now home after a week in hospital following two separate surgical procedures for a total of about 13 hours under. All aimed at ridding me of a malignant gland and nerve root. So far, so good. But it does put one’s head into a slightly different perspective. Joining a survivor’s group is only good in that it notes that you did just that, but assures nothing about the future.
“What is also amazing is the exaggerations and grand standing seen from you, EM et al of the liberal persuasion .” CoRev
Spoken like a true propagandist. Along the lines of Sean Hannity suggesting that the real news outlets have an ax to grind. If you can’t defend your own biases you can always project them on those who see them as wrong headed.
Jack:
No need to fawn over this old tough X-Marine. I hope you are better. I think I explained it as I see it. People should not be ready to drink the Kool-Aid.
Run, wishing you the best.
beene and the others,
I am fine. I will pull out of this just like everything else. My platelets are just extremely low (1000) and not responding to normal treatment. Somewhere along the line (Lejeune?, 55 gallon open drums of Kold Fill degreaser to dip metal parts into [cleans ties great back then], chromium used in plating, etc.), I was exposed to something directly (Lejeune) or indirectly (manufacturing). The point of this is the slightest exposure to much of this does come back to haunt you and it behooves us to be careful what goes into our closed circuit environment.
CoRev says: “Jack, I have never denied the existence of Global Warming.”
Hmm except in posts at some place called ‘Angry Bear’
http://angrybearblog.strategydemo.com/2007/08/corev-on-global-warming.html
http://angrybearblog.strategydemo.com/2007/06/corev-on-mans-impact-on-global-warming.html
And in extended comments on others posts as here:
http://angrybearblog.strategydemo.com/2013/12/four-degrees-warming-by-2100.html
I really don’t have much to add to EMichael’s response to CoRev on that final link:
“No, they are not obscure. I see no reason to explain them to you, as I find you are an incredible ass who either has a severe mental disorder that leads him to lurk around the blogosphere injecting nonsense into climate change discussions, or you are being paid to do so.
No point in responding to your scurrilous attack on Hansen’s 1988 models and predictions(ever read them, if so why no mention of the Hansen’s Scenario B ?), as a response will be a further link to a meteorologist or a political scientist or a fictitious stevengoddard.
You are a waste of my time. And a waste of a lot of people’s time.”
Or as I say “Boy Howdy”
http://angrybearblog.strategydemo.com/2010/10/open-thread-october-8-2010.html
et passim in Comments.
In fairness CoRev here only denies global warming in NEW ZEALAND. Which since it is on the other side of the globe doesn’t necessarily support the claim he has never denied it HERE.
“You are taking this sideways CoRev. If it is safe, drink the water for a few years and lets see the cumulative impact.”–Run–
No, his ideology will not let him do that. He needs this man in the meeting to completely detail every single part of his beliefs to the fifth decimal point.
Meanwhile, the fact that the industry official will not drink the water his company says is safe to drink is unimportant.
EMichael:
You are probably right. The strategy is living in the minutia to conflate the issue which is kind-of-what I meant. The overall issue and Jim caught it, is the Gov. Michigan is on top of that pile for restricting local control even though it believes in state rights
CoRev wrote: “Even JimH’s micro-earth quakes may be beneficial, if they are relieving pressures leading to larger quakes.”
First, I would not call these micro earth quakes. The worst in Ohio was magnitude 3 and the worst in Oklahoma was one in 2011 that was magnitude 5.6. So we are not talking about unnoticeable tremors.
Second, these earthquakes in Oklahoma are probably not relieving stresses along the New Madrid fault further east, but they could be causing Oklahoma faults to slip thus speeding up the buildup of stresses on the New Madrid fault.
But it wouldn’t surprise me to read that this new found ability to produce small earthquakes was found to be of some long term value.
“new found ability”?
I haven’t seen one company claim they found this ability.
Bruce, makes claims then supports them with a series of links. He claims to have disproved this: “CoRev says: “Jack, I have never denied the existence of Global Warming.”
Hmm except in posts at some place called ‘Angry Bear’”
His 1st reference does not support his claim of disproving my claim of NOT denying Global Warming. It talks a great deal of the errors found at that time in the US dataset. IT DEFINITELY DOES NOT DENY GW’S EXISTENCE.
Then when I went to his 2nd reference I found this quote of mine: “… global warming/climate change. Is it happening? Absolutely, measurements around the world prove it.”
Maybe in Bruce’s world this amounts to denial of GW’s existence, but in my world it actually is a confirmation.
I found it needless to go any further. If his fist two references were so weak, and/or actually contradicted his position, it was unnecessary to follow his desperate path further.
Just to be clear, what has been the issue with Global Warming/Climate Change/Climate Disruption etc. is how much of the ENORMOUS 0.8c increase AVERAGE SURFACE TEMPERATURE in the past ~135 years can be assigned to mankind?
My position from the start of this comment thread is that the concerns are exaggerated and much of the dialog just grandstanding.
Much like Bruce’s failed attempts to make points.
The biggest exaggeration I see is the fracking companies claim that the water is safe to drink.
Actually, it is not an exaggeration at all, it is a flat out lie.
EMichael:
Hence the test. Gelman Execs would not drink the water either; but, they expected neighborhoods experiencing the plume of diluted dioxane to accept it. You are right as is the Fracking Guy poring it out. In my own Township, they do the same thing . . . the shuffle.