The Most Important Issue At Helsinki
The Most Important Issue At Helsinki
No, folks, it was not the much ballyhooed issue of Russian election interference in 2016, which got so much attention because of Trump’s bungled and false statements at the press conference. Oh yes, for those of us who are convinced he is a bought out stooge of Putin, this all was very delicious, but it was far from the most important issue dealt with in Helsinki.
As always, the most important issue between Russia and the US is nuclear weapons, not Ukraine or NATO expansion eastward or even Putin murdering innocent opponents. Of course we have this awful problem that we in the US do not know what was discussed for 2 hours privately between Trump and Putin in Helsinki. We are getting claims out of Moscow about supposed deals made, mostly about Syria in terms of specifics, but there remains zero knowledge among US authorities supposedly responsible for these matters of what the deals are or their details. As it is, most of the Syrian stuff looks like basically status quo arrangements made on the ground between US and Russian military, most of this dating back to the Obama era. We needed a summit for this?
Anyway, getting back to the most important issue, nuclear weapons, what we have been provided with is a vague and confused statement: that the INF and “new” START treaties “will be extended.” Well, that sounds nice, but it has some problems, especially with the INF part, although given that START was an Obama treaty with Medvedev, this is some solace given Trump’s propensity to simply end anything that Obama did, just because.
The Intermediate Nuclear Force (INF) was agreed to in Dec. 1987 by US President Ronald Reagan and Soviet President Gorbachev. It is a permanent treaty requiring no special extension. It bans missiles of intermediate range of especial danger to NATO nations in western Europe. Until 2014 it was followed by both sides. Then in 2014 Putin adopted the RS-26 missile that violates the treaty, although he has denied it does. But US SecDef Mattis thinks it does.
So, what Trump should have had as his top priority in Helsinki and before while visiting NATO allies, whom he dissed, including the EU as our “worst foe,” would have been to demand that Putin get rid of the RS-26 missile that violates the INF treaty. Instead we are told that he and Putin have agreed to “extend” it and the START. This is plain awful, but not surprising.
Barkley Rosser
wkik reports the RS 26 is on “hold”.
We might consider (or Putin might bring up) US respect for deals with Iran and ABM treaty.
I worked a project involved in implementing the INF treaty years ago. I also have had dealing with related weapon systems.
I should keep up with the INF kerfuffle.
RS-26 and such “weapons is [are] to deter Western forces from coming to the aid of the NATO’s newer eastern members that are located closer to Russia’s borders.[15] ”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RS-26_Rubezh
Seems RS 26 has been put in some kind of hold, there are better techie things for the Russian’s to use for the nuclear trip wire sitting on the Dneiper.
The US needs to meet with Russia about START while spending a trillion bucks upgrading nukes over the next generation.
While if star wars* were anything other than a very profitable science project, it has already violated ABM, which RS 26 is in part hardened to missile defenses.
Ai=sideon the sundered ABM treaty and star wars:
The St Rornald approach to star wars: he did not want to be “Henry Fonda in Fail Safe”. It has now grown to systems that are not so useful for missile defense but are enablers of other tactics which have moved in to former Warsaw area and Korea. Worst, if a miracle occurred and the pentagon trough could actually make something work star wars enables a first strike which is far more destabilizing!
Given star wars, START is not in Russia’s interests.
Yeah, the U.S. violates every agreement with Russia and brings NATO right up to their doorstep, yet Russia should give up the one weapon that is key to protecting it from NATO aggression. You want to carry some MORE water for the unaccountable empire?
While the issue of defensive missiles is important, the immediate concern is the rabid anti-Russian stance of the liberals who, up until 2016, were just fine with “discussions” or “negotiations” with the Russians to keep antagonism to a moderate and manageable level. Then, with Trump’s election, the rails came off the rational train of thought in liberals’ heads. Now they are seeking confrontations with the Russians who they blame for Hillary Clinton’s defeat rather than the fact that enough people saw her for the sociopath that she is. So, any chance they have to poke the bear, they take it.
Some reading:
https://www.thenation.com/article/do-liberal-democrats-want-war-with-russia/
Dan:
Welcome to AB. First time comments always go to moderation to weed out spammers and advertising.
With that being said, I will give you my opinion. How many years of investigation does it take before someone is declared decidedly innocent? How many years did the Clintons go through investigations by Congressional Republicans? Were either ever indicted for something other than a blowjob? And where is Ken Starr today after his coverup of a rape at Baylor to protect a football star?
Until Mueller completes his investigation, you and the rest will have to be patient as patient as the Clintons were when Republicans investigated them time and time again and found nothing to bring them to trial. It may be there is nothing to be found in which indict a sitting president; but given the past history of Trump, it is doubtful he will walk away clean.
As far as Cohen? I agree westernizing Russia and giving them something to lose would help Europe and us; but then, boy-Trump has this thing about tariffs. I disagree with Cohen’s beliefs on Trump.
Trump has no promise for America. He is a bumbling ignorant racist, misogynist, xenophobic bigot which Republicans have tied their hope of what Amerika should look like for them and the upper 1%.
Imagine you live in a world where a country’s leader for merely talking to the leader of a similar, nuclear armed power brings rants of “treason”.
http://robertreich.org/post/176069359495
This from soft spoken, occasionally logical Robert Reich.
The depths of Trump Derangement Syndrome (TDS) and the willingness to scream for war on allegations of cyber attack on “sacred US democracy”* while the money (oil sheik, AIPAC, etc) in government and the DNC dirty tricking Sanders leave huge holes in the claims of “sacred US democracy”.
Sen Shaheen (D NH)+ was all over Trump about his scaring US allies in NATO! She is a co-chair on the Senate NATO Observer Group whose purpose is to meddle in execute branch operations of foreign policy specifically to turn NATO into an offensive alliance where “collective security” requires surrounding Russia and assuring the new “allies” that the US will go nuclear over their “integrity”.
Opposing that aggressive alliance is not treason it is the best way to assure the future of the world.
The democrats have gone from soft on defense to raving war mongers. TDS is not the main cause.
*in a constitutional republic owned by money foreign and domestic!!
+I will work and contribute to unseat all democrats in NH.
ilsm:
If it was just a matter of talking to another world leader, this would be a so what. The fact is, Putin is not just another world leader the same as Merkel, May, or Macron. You have cited Robert Reich’s post of July 19, 2018 in general without specifics you would find wildly exaggerated, half true, or just plain lies. Trump’s wildly fallacious comments and bizarre actions in light of his past public blundering nationally and globally leave much to the imagination and do not breed trust. He is a liar who makes things up as he goes along.
Shaheen calling for a congressional hearing with an interpreter is a call to war? It is kind of funny we have to interrogate an interpreter to find out what Trump actually said because by the next day he will have forgotten. That is the danger of his forgetting what he actually promised.
Maybe too you meant Bush II placement of missiles in Poland and Czech republic, canceled by Obama due to techie issues, and to be placed elsewhere closer to Iran in 2018 with an improved version (feign south?). Czechs did not want them and the nationalistic Poles did want them. Obama did not want to spend the money on something (Aegis, Patriot?) of which earlier versions did not work effectively. Trump signed off on a $10.5 billion deal with the Poles giving them an advanced version. And Dems are clamoring for war?
A while back Russia was testing hypersonic weapons. You said it earlier that Russia can not afford a large War budget as it takes from the economy. Large amounts of money spent on war materials helped lead to their collapse previously. Best bet is for Russia to want to trade with the Us and Europe. The gas pipe line will not be enough leverage on Germany as it provides 9% of their needs.
ilsm,
I think you are right that the RS-26 is on some sort of hold, which seems to date to the Obama era. This is a big deal, but nobody wants to talk about it publicly, which is why you have to have somebody like me to bring up this deep shit, :-).
JBR
So Russia ratfckes our election and the problem is liberals looking for a confrontation with them?
Like to see the reaction of these so called americans when they show up to vote and find they are not registered any longer for reasons no one knows.
Barkley Rosser,
I am sorry I sent this thread “off the rails”.
The topic is timely and important.
We all should push for new START and INF.
From what I have read, it was mentioned but nothing has come out of the executive offices.
While Kim may be watching how Trump and Putin deal with the really big stuff.
ilsm
@run75441 July 23, 2018 2:02 pm
Yes. And that’s against the USA interests (or more correctly the US-led neoliberal empire interests). North Stream is a problem as the goal is to economically weaken Russia, tie the EU to the USA via energy supplies and support our new client state — Ukraine.
As you know, nothing was proven yet in Russiagate (and DNC hacks looks more and more like a false flag operation, especially this Guccifer 2.0 personality ), but sanctions were already imposed. And when the US government speaks “Russia” in most cases they mean “China+Russia” ;-). Russia is just a weaker link in this alliance and, as such, it is attacked first. Russiagate is just yet another pretext after MH17, Magnitsky and such.
To me the current Anti-Russian hysteria is mainly a smokescreen to hide attempt to cement cracks in the façade of the USA neoliberal society that Trump election revealed (including apparent delitimization of ruling neoliberal elite represented by Hillary).
And a desperate attempt to unite the society using (false) war propaganda which requires demonization of the “enemy of the people” and neo-McCarthyism.
Bu this is also related to attempts to prevent/weaken the alliance of Russia and China. As geopolitical consequences of this alliance for the USA-led neoliberal empire are very bad (for example, military alliance means the end of the USA global military domination; energy alliance means that is now impossible to impose a blockade on China energy supplies from Middle East even if Iran is occupied)
In this sense the recent descent into a prolonged fit of vintage Cold War jingoistic paranoia is quite understandable. While, at the same time, totally abhorrent.
My feeling is that unless Russia folds, which is unlikely, the side effects/externalities of this posture can be very bad for the USA.
In any case, the alliance of Russia and China which Obama administration policies forged spells troubles to the global neoliberal empire dominated by the USA.
Trump rejection of existing forms of neoliberal globalization is one sign that this process already started and some politicians already are trying to catch the wind and adapt to a “new brave world” by using preemptive adjustments.
Which is why all this Trump-Putin summit hysteria is about.
Neither hard, nor soft neoliberals want any adjustments. They are ready to fight for the US-led neoliberal empire till the last American (excluding, of course, themselves and their families)
Initially, I misread Barkley. ilsm speaks in vagarities and circles (at times the latter). Do you travel? It appears you travel.
Barkley had this to say to you last year November:
I have a tendency to trust Barkley.
This is an interesting read. Marc Thoma put it up on Facebook. The Two Putins (When US policy didn’t change, Putin changed his own.) A brief quote:
If it was as simple as economic trade with Russia, it would have been done years ago. Putin wants more and he demonstrated quite well what he wanted in the Ukraine. Trump wants to sell natural gas (for one thing in the basket) and uses his quips and prods of western Europe to push it. It is too expensive. Merkel and May are not so stupid as to get into an economic bed with Trump as he is all over the board. Trump has no standards or morals and he has proven it with his multiple bankruptcies and his careening temperment. Why loan a crook money or trust him in deals? Europe is caught between the two giants.
Putin did tamper in the 2016 election although the outcome will remain the same. It appears too many voted for Johnson and Stein in both Michigan and Wisconsin because of the lies and innuendo created by the internet, Russian tampering, Republicans, and the coming out of the NY FBI office. Kind of hard to ignore the Russians. “Clemson University researchers had discovered that Russian operatives had spun out 18,000 tweets, at the rate of a dozen a minute, on the eve of Wikileaks’ first disclosures of emails stolen from Clinton’s campaign manager.” The weakness in the Electoral process contributed to the process also.
Trump did not get his promise of no more tampering from the Russians. And then there is the issue of the missiles.
A 54.5% Dem election vote turnout takes back the House. Women are up in arms which is a good thing and could make it happen. >57% of the election vote was Dem in 2008 and put Obama in office.
“DNC hacks looks more and more like a false flag operation, especially this Guccifer 2.0 personality”
Link, please.
Joel,
That person has no reason to be read.
I need to sleep again while I can. Read The Two Putins.
Run,
Anyone who has read ilsm over the last several years, and especially since trump became president, knows he is certainly a russian troll. There is no other explanation possible for his reactions to trump’s insanity, especially when a lot of it is in areas where his opinions have changed as if overnight.