The debate
The long term effect of the debate may be small, but the race is at best a tie, and I just don’t see how Biden can turn it around. I’m not saying he should drop out or that his candidacy is doomed. He still may be the Dems best bet. Maybe the outcry about his performance will blow over, the case against Trump will become clearer, and wandering Democrats will return to the fold. But Biden was not making much progress in the run up to the debate. The case for dropping out certainly got stronger, and the likelihood of a Trump win increased.
I have long been worried about Biden’s lack of a communication strategy. It has seemed that his team didn’t trust him in front of a microphone, or that he didn’t trust himself.
I guess they figured that his presidency would sell itself. This was not as crazy as it sounds. The effect of presidential speechmaking is ordinarily limited because of partisanship and the general difficulties of political persuasion. But here Biden’s poor communication reinforced the public’s key concern about his fitness for office.
Biden had lots of opportunities to nail Trump and he whiffed. It’s not clear if he was poorly prepped, or just was unable to execute his debate strategy. He has never been a disciplined speaker. And Trump is difficult to debate. It’s like debating an anti-vaxxer. You need to stay on message and ignore the endless stream of lies. That’s hard to do when you’re 35 and don’t have a stutter.
My sense is that Biden has always been overly complacent about his electoral prospects. Sometimes that’s fine. But sometimes the light at the end of the tunnel is an oncoming train. I hope he and his team and his family take the current situation seriously. What exactly is the plan for turning this around? If they cannot answer that question, stepping aside should at least be on the table.
step said for who?b
i saw something worse than it sounds like you saw. Biden looked really old. really really old. I will still vote for him because I believe that even if he is too old to win a debate, somehow he has…or his team has…done as decent a job as we have a right to expect…and could continue to do so, with help from his people.
But “voters” won’t see it that way. Especially those who think the things they disagree with him about are worth the risk of having Trump win the Presidency.
I will add,because it may matter..the ads for him that I am seeing are bad to the point of being offensive. You can’t hear “malarkey” too many times before you start feeling like they are playing you for an idiot.
I don’t have any answers either. Maybe they need to start a rumor that someone slipped sleeping pills into his coffee before the debate….but then they’s still need to make him look like he did at the state of the union speech.
Califonia governor after the speech looked presidential. I don’t know if the people are ready for him. And I don’t know enough about him to be sure myself.
typo
speaking of “old”
“step said for who?” was supposed to be “step aside for who?”
Newsom’s quite good, and Governor of California is no small thing, experience-wise. Solid left-of-center. Remember the storm he caused when he directed the county clerk to issue the first-ever gay marriage certificates when he was Mayor of San Francisco in 2004? People were predicting the end of his political career back then… Plus, he and Kamala Harris go way, way back. I think he didn’t run because he was playing the long game, didn’t want to be a party disruptor like Kennedy was in 1980.
coberly:
I am not shopping for the presidential look. I am shopping for past actions and the results of them which Biden has provided for this nation. Somehow, “you-all” did not listen to him as he repeatedly recited them. You were too much in awe of trumps ability to lie.
Ithaqua
thanks for reply. I know nothing about Newsom other than he “looked Presidential” commenting on the debate, and “looking Presidential” seems to be what people want.
Subsequently I have heard that “this is a year for populism and Newsom looks like an “elite”.. so I don’t know enough about politics for my opinion to be taken more seriously than it deserves. Can’t say I think much about the opinions of others though.
I like to think that Biden has done a good enough job and that is what should be considered…unless what we saw Thursday night does indicate some loss of function that would make his judgement dangerous. I don’t agree that what we saw necessarily “proves” that….but I am afraid it will prove that to a lot of people.
What else I have seen since Thursday is that Biden seems to have made a remarkable recovery from whatever was happening to him during the debate. I wish I knew how and what it means. If he can keep it up, and the Dems can sell it [i have my doubts that they can sell it..the ads I have seen are pathetic] the people may forget about the debate by the time they have to choose between Biden and Trump. I am very disappointed that some “liberals” will not vote for Biden…not because he is too old, but because he, having to deal with the real world, has done things they don’t like in their fantasies about [he] “should” persue a christ-like pacifism while still having the power to force others to do what we want them to do.
Sorry if this is too long. I have been a little horrified by the rancor in other comments on this thread. Everyone seems to have their own non-negotiable absolute truths.
Did not see this debate. Silver Dollar City in Branson actually offered more entertainment value. Who’s have guessed, right? Anyway, read a few things this AM. For those think Biden should not be the candidate this fall, I suggest it is because of significant neurohealth questions, which, by extension, would be a good reason for him not to be President this afternoon. Not suggesting President Harris would be the absolute best hypothetical choice, but it would preserve incumbency and eliminate possible bitter in-fighting. The Republicans think she’s a doofus and make fun of her a lot seems pretty unimportant. Black and women voters likely would be firmed up a bit. The campaign axis is anti-Trump in any case.
Agree, who is running US.
paddy:
Congress
Thru the purse and legislation,
who is doing the commander in chief while Ukraine is using US rockets and Israel is getting our aid in blasting Palestine?
My service was in SAC, last with Reagan, I am not comfortable who has the codes.
paddy:
You are right, Trump should have them.
Eric:
So, you are following hearsay and making stuff up in your suggestions.
You did not watch the debate?
While Biden did hesitate in answering and at times fumbled with his wording, he did rebut trump on issues offering multiple achievements in each case.
I watched the debate.
Biden passed a physical and neurological exam in February 2024 which cleared him of issues.
Angry Bear is not a place for supposition, conjecture, and innuendo which you apparently are getting quite bold in offering it up.
The President is portrayed as a highly successful one who was the overwhelming choice of Democrats around the country to be their nominee for 2024. Yes, I do think it is really important for those who now whisper or even publish their views that he withdraw explain themselves concerning his continuance in office.
You can pretend all you like that I’m the one pushing this, but that’s untrue and entirely unimportant if it were true. We are about one week after the whole fake and manipulated videos explanations for whatever is going on and that seems stone dead already.
In any case, my political opinion is simple enough: if he were to withdraw, Democrats would be better off if he left office. Having him withdraw now but stay in office would be just about the most target rich opportunity the opposition could imagine. He can and no doubt will do what he pleases regardless of any of our thoughts.
Eric:
There is no portrayal. Biden has been ad is highly successful. trump left us with $2 trillion dollars debt which I hope they collect part of it from you. That is his successful economy.
Your political opinion has no basis
So thats it, nit-wit, you just want him to quit without offering any explanation or suggestion what to do in the chaos that follows?
Funny how those who clamored the loudest Clinton was ((( The Candidate ))) while telling the millions hollering at the top of our lungs “don’t do it!” to sit down and shut up are now clamoring loudest for Joe to quit. Makes one wonder
Biden is not the problem, and needs to stay right where he’s at …
His health is a serious question, which makes for a political problem. Apart from all other considerations, for the human being Joe Biden, continuing as a candidate is very likely not in his own interest. Nor is being President even now. Even if the intentions of many looking to push him here may be quite bad, actually getting removed could easily be to his personal benefit. The notion that his condition was being heavily manipulated by editing tricks already seems greatly devalued in the press this morning.
How so?
Let’s release that Hur audio. He’s still sharp, we all know that. This audio will help settle the waters.
paddy
Biden is doing the commander in chief thing. that’s the way it works under our Constitution, even if you don’t like what he is doing. or think he is too demented to be actually doing the job. fact is, though, that the rest of the way things work is that the “actual” doing is carried out by the generals and other advisors…who should be able to work together even if the President is disabled.
Same thing about running the country…unless you meant ruining the country…that would be the Republicans.
Eric
I think your opinions so far are about as good as mine or anyone else’s here, but even saying that..MY opinions are as likely to be wrong or misunderstood as yours.
But as for the Hur tapes, I think you are dead wrong. All the tapes would do is either confirm that Biden stumbles, or not confirm…neither of which matters and would only distract and confuse us…from what matters. I think…certainly don’t “know”… that you are just more or less parroting your party line. From my perspective the Republicans now in office are traitors or just uncommonly stupid people who think they can lie, cheat, and steal to gain power which they no doubt intend to use benignly..believing as they do that rule by the richest is the best rule.
He’s not 200 pounds overweight, been eating shit and huffing drugs all his life. Drumpf uck’s lifestyle and physical condition he could drop into a diabetic coma any moment, if not complete cardiac arrest. I’ve seen how people like that go (my “father”), it ain’t pretty and I will enjoy watching every bit of it
The call for Biden to resign is a vote for Trump …
Bill
what makes you think that? i regard it as a slander.
I heard what Biden said, and I already said I will vote for him. and I said he has done a good job, even if he looks too old.
And I may have said that Trump scares the hell out of me. as do the people swallowing his lies whole.
You and I may not be shopping for the Presidential look, but “the voters” are.
Ten
just so you and Bill know, I am not calling for Biden to resign.
speaking of what I am not saying, did you ever come to terms with “saying Hamas was blocking food deliveries”?
Beside party motive, why has 25th amendment section 4 not been exercised?
Were I the carrier of the nuke codes I would not participate with Biden.
“Were I the carrier of the nuke codes I would not participate with Biden.”
You? Who are you?
Cold war veteran.
Hot stuff!
@paddy,
I grew up in Oak Ridge TN during the Cold War, so I guess my judgement on this topic is as good as yours. I trust Biden with the nuclear codes more than I’d trust Trump.
Joel,
A synonym for trust is faith.
You are of course entitled and responsible for what you believe.
Growing up in Tn did you believe you were to a nudet?
I never sat in an ICBM silo but I well knew several escapees!
All were certified sane enough to push the buttons to kill millions!
@paddy,
“You are of course entitled and responsible for what you believe.”
Why, thank you!
All I have seen, despite the calls from the pundit class and the those terminally online political, was the snap polls of likely voters showing a boost to Biden’s numbers. Maybe we should chill out.
Fraud:
Maybe we should; but this sells advertisements.
The New York Times reports that the audience for this debate was significantly reduced from prior debates between these two. Time has an article reporting that the Spanish Language channel’s coverage reports that their surveys of Spanish speakers suggest that Trump’s bullshit was recognized as bullshit. Biden looked energized the next day in North Carolina. Jim Clyburn wants him to stay in the race.
Chilling is a good idea.
Jack:
Thank you. Glad you are back, joining this old guy, and functioning appropriately.
@Jack,
“Chilling is a good idea.”
It is, indeed, based on the evidence. The Access Hollywood tapes (where Trump copped to sexual assault) were initially believed to be the death of his campaign. While he did lose the popular vote, he was appointed by the electoral college.
When I was growing up, a candidate with 34 felony convictions had no chance. The announcement of Trump’s 34 felony convictions had no effect on the polls.
All the hyperventilating in the MSM and on these threads about Biden’s poor performance in the first 45 minutes of a 90 minute TV “debate” reminds me of the old warning of scientists: Believing is seeing.
On the other hand it is important to recognize that it was very painful to watch and probably did some damage. The question for me is how to recover and get into positive marketing. In the swing states who will decide the election, I would like to see them emphasize their anti-trust emphasis to fight the high prices at the gas stations and grocery stores and to help family farms and small towns get a better return on their yields.
@Jack,
“probably did some damage.”
That’s what the pundit class wants you to believe. What’s the evidence for that, and how will we measure it? All the rest is just clickbait bafflegab. I’m 69 years old. This ain’t my first rodeo.
And not to put too fine a point on it, the November election won’t just be about the POTUS. 1/3 of the Senate and 100% of the House will be up for election. The Democratic Party needs to recapture the House (where budget bills originate) and hold on to the Senate (which has to approve SCOTUS nominations).
@Joel: As Bill will tell you, it’s not my first rodeo either. Whatever the assessment of the damage, if any, there’s no denying that the race is close at this point. Therefore, figuring out how best to go forward is important. It seems to me that concentrating on the swing states is self evident inasmuch as they will decide the election for the presidency. I certainly don’t dispute the importance of Congressional control but regard another Trump presidency as a potential disaster that compels the race’s priority. Both races, of course, are important. Bear in mind that a loss of the presidential race could damage the down ballot races as well.
JackD
mostly the same as what I think: certainly political damage done. serious reason to worry about whether he can do the job…which is mostly coordinating and inspiring his staff (and the public). I don’t think there is any danger that his staff would let him start a nuclear war if they did not agree the situation warranted it.
but there is also hope that he can recover both from whatever caused what we say, and from the fact that “everyone” saw it. i will hope for that. as someone who suffers from “typos” myself I don’t see that has anything to do with his competence for the job, or his sanity. but just to show you how reliable my political intuition is, I am not overworried about high prices for gas or how to help family farms. I do worry about how to stop the Trumpists from destroying the country. And I sick of hearing about “39 felonies.” reciting a laundry list of whatever anyone thinks will hurt Trump with “the people” is as foolish as talking about the glass ceiling and grabbing pussy…we have seen that the voters don’t care about that…just as the did not care about Mr Clinton’s sex with that woman. and having Biden say “cut the malarky” ten times a day on television makes me think I am being pandered to by someone who thinks i am an idiot.
gas prices are a bit beyond the president’s control…and family farms are way beyond his control. these require societal changes which “we” are yet close enough to effect. but electing Trump would put them permanently out of reach, for as long as we last anyway.
The Left is asking Biden to do what they themselves cannot do in their own lives, possibly impossible in human nature. certainly out of reach today.
anyway, thanks for the listen. feel free to disagree. i don’t have my finger on the button.
As a physician for over 47 years I have seen dementia. The motor and cognitive impairment have been evident for some time. This was gut wrenching. Who allowed this? There is still the option to appear selfless and pass the torch.
As a physician for over 47 years, you should know better than to diagnose a patient on TV. I’ve been a medical school professor for over 37 years and I know better. Shame on you!
Please review observational news clips of the president from ten and 20 years ago. His motor deterioration is the most notable and a feature seen in later stages. Ad hominem attacks and denial of what you and over 50 million saw is not helpful.
@TEF,
LOL!
If you were actually a physician, you would know that diagnosing someone from TV images, especially from selected news clips, is foolish, unprofessional, and frankly, malpractice. I didn’t watch the debates, something you assumed I did, and which doesn’t add to your credibility as a critical thinker. Pretending to know things you don’t is not helpful.
TEF:
Take a walk around the block a few times. I trashed your comment Gary.
Sorry Gary:
You sure blew this one. He was under stress, had a cold, maybe took some Meds which affected his thinking and quick responses. Unfortunately he i d not take time to formulate a response to a liar and a fraud. You and others are leaping to conclusions which I resent. He led the attack on the pandemic even if he followed the recommendations of his team. He sold it.
How does this compare to 2008 when thousands of us paid the price of Wall Street gambling and Greenspan’s BS. Did you suffer a job loss like so many of us did. I started working in upstate NY for almost three years, laid off after I fixed them and moved on to Ohio and worked for almost three years. Then got a job near home in Michigan. How does that compare to what happen over the last 3.5 years.
Biden pulled it off. Now because he rambles (maybe due to meds and a bad cold), you wish to shit-can him.
Do you have an issue with the economy other than the $2 trillion debt trunp and Republicans left us? Just a lowly MA out of Loyola. I am sure Dr. Malliaris would talk kind about his student. We are of similar age and he still teaches at Loyola of Chicago.
It is extremely difficult for incumbents to remain in power when they preside over, much less participate in, reductions of living standards for the general population. Incumbent governments in Canada, the UK, and France–to name three of what is likely a far larger number–are expected to be crushed in their respective upcoming elections.
American political-economic dynamics are no different, and the odds of the Democratic Party retaining the White House are slim. Replacing Biden with someone more lively will not change this.
Incumbent governments throughout the west did irreparable harm to their electoral chances when they conspired with the billionaire class to use the pandemic as an opportunity engage in nearly unprecedented looting, on a civilizational scale, through price gouging and elevated interest rates. The majority can no longer afford to live as they once did, not because it has become harder to make things, but because the political class and billionaire class conspired to steal everyone’s money and future.
When the mass public realizes that prices are never going to go down relative to wages–that the decline in living standards is permanent–much of the public will look to a man on a horse to tell them a comforting story about which minorities are to blame and should be killed to restore the glory days. In America, that man on a horse may be Donald Trump. It may well be someone worse. This is human nature, repeated countless times throughout history.
Replacing Biden at this point would be akin to closing the barn door after the horse has bolted.
The path we are on has no turns.
Hey Bill! I wonder if we can capture any of the airplane glue fumes and resell it!?
At least the trolls stick together 😎
The narrative is fast becoming: “Biden governed well in the past and is a nice old man who stood up for workers. He’s earned another term.”
The real question: “Now and in the future, do you want a senescent old man with declining judgment to have his finger on the nuclear button?” It’s a particularly important question now that Biden’s acolytes all seem hell bent on escalating the war against Russia…and the genocide of Palestinians.
Seymour Hersh: “WHO IS RUNNING THE COUNTRY?
Biden’s decline has been known to friends and insiders for months…
The reality behind all of this, as I’ve been told for months, is that the president is simply no longer there, in terms of understanding the contradictions of the policies he and his foreign policy advisers have been carrying out. America should not have a president who does not know what he has signed off on. People in power have to be responsible for what they do, and last night showed America and the world that we have a president who clearly is not in that position today…
Whatever happens, we have a president—now fully unveiled—who just may not be responsible for what he does in the coming campaign, not to mention his actions in the Middle East and Ukraine.”
Krugman (2/1224): “But there’s perception and there’s reality: As anyone who has recently spent time with Biden (and I have) can tell you, he is in full possession of his faculties — completely lucid and with excellent grasp of detail. Of course, most voters don’t get to see him up close, and it’s on Biden’s team to address that. And yes, he speaks quietly and a bit slowly, although this is in part because of his lifetime struggle with stuttering. He also, by the way, has a sense of humor, which I think is important.
Opinion | Why I Am Now Deeply Worried for America – The New York Times (nytimes.com)
This is compelling evidence that Krugman is just another partisan hack, a part of the Democratic echo chamber, something that has been pretty obvious for decades.
John:
A partisan hack, the same as I and I welcome the company.
Gary:
An honest and accurate response to your comments at Angry Bear. When you can not rebut, resort to calling criticism of your comments an ad hominin.
@Bill,
I do not think it means what he thinks it means.
Malpractice entails foremost a physician patient relationship. There is no malpractice here. If the president’s physician did not order cognitive testing given the observable motor and neurological decline, the failure to do so would be malpractice with serious consequences for the country that I served for over 30 years as a Navy physician. An argument that one candidate is much worse than the other does nothing to address the cognitive issue. A somewhat reasonable analogy is that Kareem, because of age related health issues, can no longer play basketball at a competitive NBA level. There is no ad hominem reasoning against any other commenter here. There are many articulate and worthy candidates capable of beating the worse candidate.
TEF:
You conflate physical attributes with mental attributes.
Progressive age related diseases and natural senescent and apoptotic genetic processes affect both physical and mental capabilities to observable and testable varying degrees.
The same as others you conflate physical with mental issues.
You do not know the degree of testing Biden went through as prescribed in a recent letter by his doctor in February as well as multiple others. We do know, trump went through some physical as the president with pseudo-doc Jackson. Is your reasoning such as to conflate the results of trumps boasts about his cognitive ability? Why didn’t trump answer the questions as posed? Because he can’t. He is not a leader. He is a fake traveling showman selling snake oil as a cure. Trump is not the cure for this country’s issues. He is a fraud.
Like many of the doctors I have run into today, coding is their main goal so as to get paid more by Medicare Advantage and other programs. It is funny how Mr. Jabbar got it right and how you are all over it in your attempts t denigrate him.
I have not seen you spend so much time verbalizing at Angry Bear before. Maybe you just read also
@Bill,
TEF claims to be a physician, and yet claims to be able to diagnose dementia using video clips. That claim, as any real physician knows, is malpractice and quackery. Any real physician knows that you *must* see the patient in your office before you can make a diagnosis. This isn’t hard, it’s obvious. Professional standards.