Maybe No Conspiracy Or Coordination, But Lots And Lots Of Collusion
Maybe No Conspiracy Or Coordination, But Lots And Lots Of Collusion
Trump and his supporters have been loudly claiming that the Barr letter about the Mueller report has shown “no collusion!” which has been shouted loudly from the rooftops, with many supposedly respectable sources such as the New York Times agreeing with this assessment, thus supporting the long running Trump/Hannity repeated claim.
But I note that the big headline on this morning’s Washington Post was “Mueller Finds No Conspiracy,” not “No Collusion.” Indeed, a careful reading of the clearly carefully written Barr letter finds it not using the word “collusion” at all. Its crucial getting Trump off a major hook says that the available evidence suggests that there was “no conspiracy and no coordination.” Nothing about collusion.
Clearly few have even notieced this, very few besides myself so far, but I did occasionally see commentators noting that while Trump/Hannity were constantly denying “collusion” with the Russians, Mueller was not investigsting that, ssomething that is not iillegal in any case, but instead “conspiracy” was what was being investigated, something that is a crime. While I am about to accuse Trump of stupidity, I think he or somebody figured it out that pushing this “no collusion” line would end up as it has as indeed Mueller was not investigating the not-illegal “collusion.” So far, they are getting away with this scam.
So how do these things differ? Conspiracy and cooedination both imply some amount of planning and direction, with for conspiracy some sort of communication and agreement on the plan with the other conspiring party, namely the Russians. What apparently the Mueller report finds is none of that: no central plan or direction or the making of such a plan with the Russians. This indeed looks like it is true, although some of what went on around the Trump Tower meeting gets pretty borderline, even as that seems to have been sort of a mutually botched meeting.
But on the matter of collusion we have piles of evidence that this has occurred, and the evidence is the large pile of indictments that Mueller has brought forward against a lot of people, with many of those charged with having unreported meetings and dealings with Russians, including passing of information back and forth, with many of these then lying about all this, and with some of these people pleading guilty of what they were charrged with. These actions have involved very clearly in many cases collusion with the Russians rhese people were dealing with. The crucial diffeeence is that it appears that all this collusion was unplanned and undirected. It was disorganized and spontaneous collusion, although serious enough to bring about efforts to cover up what was going on by many, including apparently Trump himself, even if AG Barr has decided he did not commit obstruction of justice.
The only person I have seen so far to have sort of caught on to this, although not quite as clearly as I am stating here, Juan Cole today. He notes that Trump himself is simply so disorganized and frankly stupid that he is barely capable of cooking up such an organized conspiracy. No conspiracy was organized. But given his situation of being deeply in hock to the Russians and wanting major business with them, showed up in the many efforts to work together, especially given that Mueller’s group found the Russians actively intervening in the election itself to the point that Mueller indicted a bunch of them, although it seems they were largely working without any plan or coordination with Trump or his campaign.
To close this out, of course I am watchng Hannity, who is ranting and raving about “no collusion,” but he is lying as usual. He demands the rest of the media to apologize, but he is the liar. There was lots and lots of collusion, and we know it. It was simply collusion without any organized conspiracy or coordination.
Barkley Rosser
There were two pieces to the Mueller investigation. The Russian intervention in the election and the question of whether there were American co-conspirators. The investigation took over two years and was apparently very thorough. The purpose to understand and prevent such events in the future. The President’s reaction to the AG’s summary of the report illustrates why so many men and women of good will were and remain suspicious of his motives in this affair. Not a single mention of the underlying issue! Not a moment spent contemplating how he might protect the country from another such attack. Nothing but a stream of bile focused on how he can use the fact that his involvement apparently didn’t rise to the level of a chargeable crime to his political advantage! If he had the grace to focus on the external threat and council that we let go of the past he would find many converts among those who are tired of the entire affair. But he is incapable of that. And in his thirst for revenge, he will trigger a release of the full report which will not be kind to him and his minions.
Trump can say what he wants, and I certainly believe he is a total moron, but that report will be made public over his dead body if he has anything to do with it.
Bark, I do not know if you saw this from the links below:
I hesitate to get too far into this discussion without seeing the actual report. But in this one area I am as confused as the author:
“Why in the dang heck did the special counsel’s office just go out of its way to accuse former Trump campaign chairman Paul Manafort of discussing Russia policy in 2016 with someone who had ongoing ties to Russian intelligence … if it was also about to conclude that no one in the campaign “conspired or coordinated with the Russian government in its election interference activities”?
Here’s what I’m talking about:
• In March 2018, the special counsel’s office made a filing in its case against a lawyer named Alex van der Zwaan, who pleaded guilty to lying to investigators about something related to Paul Manafort’s pre-Trump work in Ukraine with another Trump adviser named Rick Gates. In that filing, the special counsel noted that a fourth individual involved in Manafort’s business “has ties to a Russian intelligence service and had such ties in 2016.” He’s called Person A here, but other reports identified him as Konstantin Kilimnik…..
• In July 2018, Mueller formally accused Russia’s military intelligence agency, the GRU, of hacking and distributing Democratic Party emails in 2016.
• Then, in November 2018, the special counsel’s office asked a federal judge to formally rule that Manafort had lied to authorities about (among other things) meeting with Kilimnik in New York City in August 2016. In a January 2019 filing, Manafort’s defense team disclosed that the special counsel had asserted that, at that August 2016 meeting, Manafort and Kilimnik discussed Trump campaign polling information as well as a potential resolution of the Russia-Ukraine conflict, over which the U.S. had imposed economic sanctions on Russia. In a February 2019 hearing, here’s what special counsel prosecutor Andrew Weissmann said about the issue: “This goes, I think, very much to the heart of what the special counsel’s office is investigating. And in 2016 there is an in-person meeting with someone who the government has certainly proffered to this court in the past, is understood by the FBI, assessed to be—have a relationship with Russian intelligence.”
So, it’s on the record that the special counsel believes that Paul Manafort met, while he was Trump’s campaign chairman, with an individual who had ongoing ties to the Russian intelligence agency that interfered in the 2016 election. We know that their meeting touched on a topic with direct relevance to U.S. sanctions against Russia. We know that sanctions were one of the big reasons that the Russian government was interested in the 2016 U.S. election to begin with. How, then, does Mueller square the existence of this meeting with a conclusion that no one on the Trump campaign coordinated with the Russian government in its 2016 election interference? And if Mueller believes that no such coordination took place, then what was the point of pursuing a finding of fact that seems to suggest otherwise in federal court a month ago?
It is urgent that the full Mueller report be released if only to prevent my brain from self-combusting while trying to figure this out!”
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2019/03/mueller-manafort-kilimnik-no-collusion-how.html
I simply do not know how that does not show a conspiracy.
Trying to evaluate this situation based on Barr’s letter is a waste of time. Barr is untrustworthy to say the least. Only the report itself will reveal what evidence was found on the various issues. Given the DOJ’s policy of refusing to consider charges against a President while he is sitting, Barr and Rosenstein’s opinions are irrelevant as are Mueller’s if he expressed any. What to do with the evidence, if anything, is up to Congress. Barr’s letter is a not very well disguised effort at a whitewash.
I do agree with some of the commentators that while Congress has to clarify matters, impeachment is a non starter and the Democrats should work on perfecting their appeal on the issues that worked well in the midterms. Voting him out is the only way to get rid of the disease in the White House.
JackD:
I will leave this to the better minds amongst us. We do need to see the report.
One of the lessons here is that Congress must pursue this hard in the future, and now, as soon as a matter goes into law enforcement tge standards of evidence, culpability and proof rise – and this Trump vignette simply informs a future President how far they can go, inviting who knows what (though the public clearly needs to be concerned about this President holding a stamped and ready get out of jail card in a second term and a catalog of how to do just-short-of-conspiracy efforts).
The Congress can deter by bringing visibility, by informing the public, and possibly by impeachment actions. They need to do a lot of this now to deter a next-time.
EM,
The Manafort stuff may be the worst, but several of the other cases they brought, as well as some they di d not (nobody out of the infamous Trump Tower meeting?), are pretty stinky. Again, they may have not reflected an organized conspiracy, but sure looks like lots of collusion, as I said.
And I have finally seen someone making the same point I have here, Dana Milbank, of WaPo, also arguing that while collusion was clearly rampant, Trump is too stupid to actually properly conspire.
lol on the stupidity of Trump. Yeah, the Trump Tower stuff was the closest he go to conspiracy. Like I said, it is give and take. Russian agent says we got this on your organization Donald, Trump’s kids retort that undermining us won’t get you anywhere because we will be toast. Russian agent says yeah, we get that so we won’t push too hard………..for now.
I think the US leaving the Nuclear agreement via the Trump organization is already a good example of a soft Russian government objective being met. Stoking Venezuela to depeg from the dollar and join the “new” global reserve currency Putin and Xi are putting together is another. Trump plays the bad cop by joining the “establishment” over illegally overthrowing the Maduro government. Putin the good cop, who supports the Maduro government with aid and now military aid and pushes for depeg, which they are eventually gonna have to do. The real goal of both is a dollar crisis and destruction of the banking system which is based on dollars. That is the long goal. It weakens the US financial position and forces either socialization of assets aka socialism or “free market” debt liquidation of a Ron Paul-ian fantasy. Both would isolate the united states and especially its ties with Europe, who becomes really alone.
Barkley,
It is very difficult to find a black cat in a dark room, if there is none 😉
Despite being a Professor of Economics, and having a Russian speaking wife you are utterly incompetent in this area and are completely brainwashed by the neoliberal/neocon MSM. You tend to subconsciously equate Russia and the USSR. For your information, Russia is a neoliberal state; much like the USA and Putin is promoter of neoliberal capitalism, although in less man-eating mutation than in the USA.
For your information Mueller investigation was a part of color revolution against Trump launched by intelligence services in the same way they launch color revolution in other countries. It is unclear to me why they did that, but that fact if provable
See for example https://www.theepochtimes.com/spygate-the-true-story-of-collusion_2684629.html
And the sequence of event, especially questioning the legitimacy of election, and Mueller appointment gambit with Comey as a sacrificing pawn, corresponds to what you can learn from the books of CIA-connected writer Gene Sharp — the reference source on color revolution mechanics. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene_Sharp
It is not clear to me why the Deep State in the USA (as well as in GB) has such an allergic reaction and viewed Trump as a threat to the US governed world neoliberal empire, because Trump, as corrupt as he is, he is a part of NYC neoliberal elite and in no way a revolutionary. And it was clear that he will execute the same “bait and switch” maneuver as Obama betraying his election promises.
Which actually happened three months after inauguration when he bombed Syria targets without any investigation of a chemical attack — which most probably was stages by jihadists (supposedly he was influenced by Ivanka; actually Javanka is another problem of this corrupt administration and suggest completely different course of the investigation; hopefully by the Southern District of NY — I would like Jared Kushner going to jail with or without Trump)
But it was a color revolution. Which so far failed.
So you better stop writing such detached from reality statements as “But on the matter of collusion we have piles of evidence that this has occurred, and the evidence is the large pile of indictments that Mueller has brought forward against a lot of people, with many of those charged with having unreported meetings and dealings with Russians,” This is such a low level of IQ that it hurts. Naivety unacceptable for a Professor pretending to be a political analyst.
In reality this was a false flag operation to present Russia as the culprit. Highly successful operation I would say. Russia serves as a very convenient scapegoat for such things.
And having an external scapegoat and projecting into it all the ills helped to cement cracks in the neoliberal façade, when the US population rejected neoliberal’s elite candidate. In addition, it allowed to launch NeoMcCartyism campaign in MSM for the suppressing the internal dissent, when anybody who question the US foreign wars or the rule of financial oligarchy can be framed as Putin’s agent.
So this is another classic method of suppressing the dissident voices including whose who argue for the return of the New Deal Capitalism and/or are against foreign wars. Looks at how MSMs treat Tulsi Gabbard visit to Syria. Does not it remind you something ?
So most of your writings on this particular topic are just an implicit repetition of State Department taking points infused into your brain via MSMs you read. You have no first hand sources about Russia. That’s why I would strongly recommend you to stop writing on this topic. You just disgrace yourself.
Likbez,
This is incoherent gibberish. Putin is not a neoliberal. While Russia has not moved fully back to USSR system, Putin has moved it substantially in that direction both economically and politically.
Whatever the Mueller investigation is or was, an attempted “color revolution” it is not, although Trump ceetainly has auntoritarian nationalist tendencies that resemble Putin’s somewhat.
merde
merde,
Let the Russiagate foul ball fly out of bounds in to the stands!
Oening day is soon and US don’t need any more conspiracy theories over Russia and Putin beating Clinton.
Mueller brought no indictments against Trump or any US citizen for conspiracy with Russians.
The reason the Mueller report is “confidential” has nothing to do with national security. It has to do with federal grand jury legal process.
No indictments means the grand juries that prosecutors have plead to with under cooked nothing burgers returned no indictments!
Not getting an indictment may not be an exoneration for media propagandists who have pounded conspiracy theories for 28 months, but it is pretty close for anyone tired of the moral equivalent of seeing Saddam doing 9/11 perpetrated over and over again.
All those indictments associated with Russiagate are ‘procedural’ like misspeaking to inquisitors.
Get over it Clinton lost to Trump!
ilsm:
I thought maybe JackD would answer you as he is the attorney around here. Much of the Mueller report can be released minus the parts which are “still” under investigation by the Grand Jury and has been authorized for another six months. Much of the present findings by the Grand Jury can be released without betraying who is and still may be a part of it. Giving Barr the benefit of the doubt, it may be the 400 page report has to be reviewed first. I have no doubt it will be released before 2020.
So, will there be indictments forth coming? Maybe. It is too soon to know this and there is another six months of an already 18 month Grand Jury hearings to be conducted by Mueller. Special counsel Robert Mueller concured with the Intelligence Community’s assessment that the Russian government carried out a sophisticated, multi-pronged campaign to interfere in the 2016 election, per Attorney General William Barr’s letter summarizing the investigation’s findings. Furthermore it continued into 2018 and there is a likelihood of it reoccurring into 2020.
None of this has anything to do with HRC losing to Trump as much as you attempt to make it so. You are just stirring the pot hoping to get a terse reaction. Barkley’s statement is on the money in both instances.
ilsm,
I am sticking with my posted position. Trump is to dumb and incompetent to properly conspire or coordinate, but there was lots of collusion, with lots of it very half-baked and botched. It is public information that Trump campaign officials had over 100 meetins with various Russians, several with intel links. Then a bunch of them lied about these meetings, with Trump fams dismissing this stuff as “process crimes.” Really? Why were there so many meetings and why was there so much lying about it?
Actually the situation is really seen by the infamous Trump Tower meeting, about which Trump himself lied, denying he had made up a phony account of what happened there. As it was it was pretty clear both sides were trying to help each other out, clearly attempted collusion, but it was in the end a botch. Donald Trump, Jr. was hot to get dirt on Hillary from them and they wanted an end to the Magnitsky sanctions, but the Trumps were frustrated that the dirt was not that musch, and I guess the Russians were unhappy at the lack of more movement on the Magnitsky, which involves Putin cronies, although as it was the meeting was followed by a lot of moves to help Trump by the Russians. So, collusion, but too bungled up for conspiracy.
Barkley:
Good summation, actually two summations.
Yes …. a good summary.
ilsm.
This is a very apt observation. This was artificially created Saddam WDM II hysteria and many people became hooked. MSM honchos with some integrity should publicly commit hara-kiri but as they are mostly chickenhawks that have no honor. They never spent time in rat infested foxholes under bombardment.
How idiotic it would be if the Earth were destroyed because this crazy neocon warmonger Hillary Clinton lost, couldn’t accept it, and invented a story for lying liars to lie about, while the Deep State launched a color revolution to depose Trump because he did not fully conform to Washington neocons foreign policy script
In retrospect he changed nothing; Trump foreign policy is just a continuation of “Full spectrum dominance” madness ( Bolton and Pompeo would be perfect for Hillary Administration after routine sex change operation )
Academic stooges of this new Iraq WDM II hysteria should at least repent, but as Barkley demonstrated in his response this way too difficult.
He is still as Trump Jr put it “FullOfSchiff”
Immense damage has been done to Russo-Us relations. Will it be repaired? Can it be repaired?
Likbez,
You are so hopelessly off a deep end of spouting Trump/Hannity lies laced with weird nonsense about color revolutions and Iraqi WMDs (no, they were not there, but there were over 100 meetings between Russians and Trump people, a lot of “there” was there) it is probably a waste of time bothering further, but I shall comment on one point.
You spout this Trump/Hannity line that the whole investigation was instigated by Hillary over frustration at losing. What a pile of crap. The Trump/Hannity line is that it started because of the “discredited” Steele dossier, “bought and paid for by Hillary and the DNC.” The latter part is partly true, although its origin was with the Bush team. There are two big lies in this.
One is that the investigation was started because of it. No, although it was used as supporting evidence in the FISA applications. But what started the investigation was George Papadapoulos back in Feb. 2016 drunkenly telling an Australian diplomat how the Russians had Hillary emails they were going to slime her with. Also, it was Carter Page who got investigated (not indicted by Mueller) who had previously been watched by the FBI because of questionable interactions with Russians. He had long been an object of investigation. The Steele dossier was just an add-on here, not the main story.
The other matter is the claim that it has been “discredited.” A few parts of it have, most clearly the report about Michael Cohen making a trip to Prague in 2016. Did not happen. Some details about Carter Page’s activities appear to be at least exaggerated, if not totally wrong. However, in fact, a solid majoriity of what is in the dossier has been verified. Hannity never mentions that. A substantial portion of it has been neither verified nor disproven. The most prominent such item is the salacious story about Trump and prostitutes and golden showers, although given his now admitted dealings with prostitutes, this cannot just be dismissed, even as it remains unverified. But the bottom line is that saying it has been “discredited” is just another lie among many that Trump and Hannity endlessly repeat. You should not go for it. Most of the dossier has been verified.
Barkley,
Like you and others with IQs above double digits, I am so tired of this supposed act by the Dems to smear trump with the dossier.
What these imbeciles are saying is that hillary paid for the dossier and used it against trump in the election.
The dossier became public months after the election.
These are “tin-hat people”, and should be ignored.
EMike,
Steele intelligence/dossier “being public” has nothing to do with FBI getting it in summer 2016.
Read this:
BR,
“Trump is to[o] dumb and incompetent to properly conspire or coordinate, but there was lots of collusion, with lots of it very half-baked and botched.”
Trump tower botchin’……
“Collusion” I have not much time need to do Friday night usuals. What is the USC on “collusion”?
Trump tower meeting was probably an attempt of entrapment set by MI6. Rob Goldstone who organized the meeting and lied about dirt on Hillary was probably MI6 asset. Fusion GPS is definitely FBI contractor and most probably CIA shop ( https://iotwreport.com/steel-dossier-has-nellie-ohrs-fingerprints-all-over-it/ )
Ilsm,
I do not know what you mean by “USC.” Is this University of Southern California or University of South Carolina or Under Secretary of Commerce or, well, what?
Likbez,
You are just over the top with conspiracy theorizing here. You should read the pathetic column by Goldstone that appeared in WaPo a couple of days ago. He is a pathetic PR guy who got in over his head and has been trying to get back up and out of it ever since. He oversold to the Trumps what the Russians would deliver (lots of dirt on Hillary!!!) and oversold to the Russians what Trump would give them (end of sanctions on all Putin cronies!!!). This led to the meeting to being a flop as the Trump complained at the time. It was attempted collusion, but they sailed right past each other due to bungling and incompetence, again, Trump too dumb to know how to properly conspire.