This weakens the Jihadist movement as a competitor to the Arab Spring. Jihadism is a ‘dead end’ and the future (at least for now) is the ‘Arab Spring’.
America thus needs a coherent policy for the Arab Spring movement more than ever right now.
Lots of implications, but first kudos to President Obama for ordering the strike and to the SEAL teams for puling it off. Further kudos to the President for his short, matter of fact speech. And it also looks like the diplomatic team managed it very well with the Pakistani’s on that end also. Also a nice touch by Obama to call Clinton and Bush to tell them about the event. Classy, I didn’t think Obama had it in him. All in all a fine job. (My only minor quibble is not mounting OBL’s head on a pike on the White House fence as is traditional….).
Political-domestic: Trump will disappear from the headlines (thank God!) and go back to making money in NYC. This also nicely takes the entire birther crap clean out of the news cycle. A nice break for the President here. Obama will get a nice spike in the polls that will be no factor in the election in 2012. (See Bush I). At best it shows he’s Presidential and willing to take big risks and takes away the ‘days not weeks’ issue in Libya off the table for a few days. (maybe more depending on overseas reactions). The Reps will give him a few days break before coming back to hit the Dems over the head with the ballooning deficit.
Political-foriegn affairs: Depending on Hillery’s involvement this may make her look very good and be a big feather in her run for President (if she does). Pakistan may go up in flames and is the big question mark. This raid wasn’t a few miles across the border into Wasiristan, but a 100+ mile attack deep into Pakistan with US SEALS boots on the ground. I would expect large-scale riots in Pakistan over this. Its already coming out that Pakistan’s gov was involved (even though claiming it wasn’t). (Also give Obama more kudos for giving the Pak Gov some plausible deniability). This should be interesting.
As for the War on terror overall. Not much, if anything will change. Another will come forward to fill OBL’s spot. Until the culture changes that breed these people we won’t have large changes. We will still be in Iraq, Afghanistan and (my bet) soon Libya along with our very large prescence in the ME (que ilsm and is perfunctory military waste post). GITMO will stay open and none of the post 9/11 security legislation will be repealed. TSA won’t close down anytime soon. Obama will clearly continue Bush’s policies or increase them. So not much will change in the bigger picture.
Last thought, this takes the Syrian slaughter of the protestors there out of the news-cycle. Expect the Syrian gov to take advantage of this and crackdown hard while the spotlight is off. And the deaths of part of Quadaffy’s family will be old news by the time this event quiet’s down.
All-in-all a very good day for the US. I especially liked the celebrations that broke out. Patriotism isn’t dead yet.
Do a lot of us in and around NYC feel better? Yes, but no one should go off those PTSD meds yet.
Will we be able to bring a 12 oz. bottle of soda through airport security now? No.
Will the dead come back to life? No.
Will there be fewer dead going forward in Afghanistan and/or Iraq? Overall, probably yes.
in that context, the big winners:
1) France. Large population of Muslim immigrants who have not been able to find jobs. While OBL was alive, they could romanticize “opposition” as something that “is better than starving.” No longer so.
2) Spain–more limited (see EU pillaging of their economy), but same argument. Madrid bombing victim families and friends: see NYC comment above.
3) Afghanistan — Weren’t hiding Bin Laden all these years (at least since the Bush Admin. bollix at Tora Bora). Bad news is it’s still Afghanistan: the worst British creation between renaming the House of Windsor and David Blaine. (Yes, I’m very much including pretending there were no Palestinians living in Palestine in that range.)
Losers:
1) Pakistan – Good news: BarryO was a man of his word: said he would go into sovereign Pakistan to kill OBL and did so. Bad news: didn’t tell the Government until after it was done. Worse news: government factions battling each other is what led to Aug 2010-April 2011 period of increased cooperation. Does not bode well long-term.
2) Tom Friedman and everyone else who declared that Obama “was living in a cave,” “didn’t have freedom,” etc. In that context, the American people for the past eight years of farce.
3) Libya – Killing Qadaffi’s sons the same day is a mixed blessing. There will–may take a few years, but there will–be a well-financed cult of opposition to those killings (much moreso than Saddam’s ne’er-do-wells). With OBL dead, there is no face for “al Queda”–which means a separate structure will be built to “avenge” those deaths.
4) The rest of the world. Following on from [3] above, the factional possibilities among the disenfranchised have been significantly reduced. The RevengeforQ’sSons group (assuming it is formed) will not have a rival worth mentioning in the 10-15 year time horizon. Single focus strengthens the terror org–bad for those against whom they would perform acts.
That’s my quick guess; still hope to be wrong about the last two on the Losers side.
All I want is for us to leave Afghanistan. But, the death of OBL will have no effect on our presence there. We are in Afghanistan because of Pakistan and for no any other reason. We’ll stay in Iraq with the 50K “noncombatant” troops there. We’ll pay higher gas prices this summer because of Libya or whatever reason comes along. (Don’t forget shut downs for maintenance of stateside refineries. That’s coming any day now.) We’ll let the Arab Spring groups make it or break it on their own. And, Syria will impose Hama rules sooner or later. This President and all those who follow him will exercise the powers Bush 43 exercised. To do otherwise is to be weak. Civilian surveillance, Gitmo, clandestine renditions and the lot are here to stay.
The US planned and executed a brilliant military operation. No question. And, now back to reality. The world is still the same and OBL might as well still be alive. The MIC will rejoice and grow stronger. And, ilsm and I will keep on nagging about the cost of subsidizing the Pentagon. Nothing will change. NancyO
Those engaged in personal attacks on the President look very small. Those attacks look like they are simply racially motivated at this point and those who persist will be marginalized. The Republican strategy of dancing with the racists while servicing Wall Street will unravel.
I see this as a diversion away from all the BAD news that is the budget talks and the economic uncertainty…especially since this week that ‘group of 6’ senators are devising a budget which is more than likely going to contain massive social spending cuts; in a nutshell, austerity measures.
I think this news arouses some sort of nationalist sentiment in the country (with images of people celebrating in the streets) which will aide the current Regime in being ‘legitimate’ in the eyes of the people and ALLOW whatever kind of budget that is devised, to be put into action without resistance! i guess we’ll see what happens…I just dont see any sense in killing the man, and “burying him at sea” when I and other Americans would probably much rather see him detained, face the courts for crimes against humanity and rot in jail for the rest of his life…all we have is the word that he is ‘dead’..unsatisfying
So, it took 8+ years after getting information from waterboarding to find Usama and you think that is a good idea? I am pretty sure the interrogators could get a nickname without waterboarding and perhaps even more information (as they seemed to shut down once they started getting tortured).Not to mention the BS from waterboarding that helped convince Bush to go into Iraq.
Actually, there is not an atom of evidence that waterboarding had anything to do with this.
There is a statement that a person who had been waterboarded provided intelligence, but there is no evidence that the intelligence came as a result of waterboarding.
Joel, so which is it? “ there is not an atom of evidence that waterboarding had anything to do with this.” or “There is a statement that a person who had been waterboarded provided intelligence,…”
And you used the term moron, but not for yourself?
Implications? Could be anything from a major victory in the GWOT to insignificant. I am leaning towards the former, but I don’t know enough to be sure. We shall see.
What I do know is that I was struck by the amount of personal credit BHO gave himself in the speech: “I made….” “I was briefed…..” “I determined…..” “at my direction……” What was all that? A weak person trying to look strong? A narcissist? What?
Me neither. Evidently that’s not true of most people.
Apparently Osama Bin Ladin had the balls of the entire male population of the University of Delaware. With him gone they all came out to celebrate last night:
i think if you look at Bush speeches on the same subject, you will find the same “first person”. I suspect it is quite formal and the required protocol. Means I take responsibility. I am the President. I acted AS the president.
as for the significance… i lean toward insignificant, except for American morale. Osama changed America and may have done for us what Reagan is said to have done for the Soviet Union. So he will be a martyr for the people who think they are patriots fighting for their country against the imperialist crusaders.
Another brilliant publicity stunt which will never be absolutely proven to be true. That’s what the “burial at sea stunt” is all about. In a single day of public apoplexy over the reported death of one man the stupendous waste of money and lives in the middle east wars has been justified. A brilliant bit of distraction from the genuine problems faced by our country. What has been accomplished by this act which itself will never be proven to have taken place as it has been described? No loss to humanity if bin Laden is in fact dead, but what good is done by the manner in which it has been done? Criminals need to be brought to trial so that the victims of their crimes can see justice done. Burials at sea are no substitute for an exposure through trial, and hopefully conviction, for crimes one is accused of having committed. The conviction of the guilty after the presentation of evidence at trial is a cathartic process for those victims. A grudge killing carried out in secret with a secretive disposal of the evidence of the deed will serve only to increase the uncertainty of the past ten years. The catharsis taking place in the streets over the past 24 hours will be short lived once the uncertainty begins to take hold. Very unfortunate.
We killed him becuase that’s what the Pres. Obama sent them to do and bring back the body. If they could have got him alive so much the better, but no one was going to risk getting shot just to bring him in alive. It also saved the headache of sending him to Gitmo and the trial. (What’s really funny is Jerelyn over at TalkLeft asking for a full forensic evaluation of the action to determine where every bullet was shot and by whom. Its hilarious in lack of touch with reality.)
The bury at sea came about from two reasons (from what I’ve read) 1) No country wanted him buried on their soil, and 2) It prevented any ‘shrine’ being built over his burial site.
Ooops, and 3) becuase President Obama ordered it.
Now we still might see one in his mansion, but I doubt it.
Nice to see Obama using SealTeam 6 – Cheney’s personal assasination squad – to good use!
i am old enough to expect people to do things for dumb reasons, but i am not ready to buy the “so there won’t be a shrine” reason. burial at sea gets rid of the body. not sure i understand why.
beware of “bullshit” it gets on your hands and you smell bad.
there is a difference between “mission accomplished” and “i ordered…” go look at the bush speeches about ordering the attack on Saddam. i could be wrong. but that doesn’t make it bullshit.
your desperate need to find moral fault with the people who disagree with you makes it almost impossible for you to learn anything. not so much about this tiny question, but more about the big facts of life.
I second sammy on the BS. Obama has a glaring use of the first person in ALL of his speeches. You could turn it into a drinking game its so bad. This has been noticed by almost everyone paying attention on both the left and right.
And notice Bush’s very short public reply about the strike in comparison.
And everyone knows the buck stop at Obama’s desk. You of everyone here should know that since its Obama who will lead the charge to gut SS if it happens.
From AP, “Mohammed did not reveal the names while being subjected to the simulated drowning technique known as waterboarding, former officials said. He identified them many months later under standard interrogation, they said, leaving it once again up for debate as to whether the harsh technique was a valuable tool or an unnecessarily violent tactic.”
SealTeam6 was 100+ miles inside Pakistani territory. We had lost more than a few special ops troops in Pakistan already and they had no time to screw around (especially after losing a chopper). You don’t read enemy combatants their rights on the battlefield. You shoot them. We are in a war, not playing CSI Pakistan.
I have no love lost for Obama and think he may easily rival Carter as the most incompetant President of my lifetime, but on this he got it right. And I have no doubt that we got OBL and then fed him to the fishes.
But this isn’t the end of the war, nor time for America to go back to its slumber (remember the “end of history”) of 9/10/2001. What will be short lived is the idea that this was a V-J day event.
Well I liked the celebrations. Nice to see people carrying the US flag proudly and celebrating a US win. Sorry, you can’t enjoy the moment.
But I still wait for the anti-war movement to fill the streets to protest Obama’s blatant violation of Pakistani’ soveriegnty. And of course bombing another Islamic country in Libya. And targetd assassination. Do I need to go on or have you got the point that the anti-war left is a joke. They are only anti-war when ‘their guy’ is not in the White House. Like NOW and Monica/Clinton issue.
As for the news cycles. The short answer is Yes. Syria and Quadaffy’s family are already gone from the headlines and will be minor footnotes if mentioned in the future. Trump will disappear back to reality TV land. Sit back and watch.
i somewhat agree w/jack that the ‘american justice’ part of me wanted a public flogging by trial and eventual death by a thousand cuts (put him in an open prison yard…); ;however, the Marine in me thinks the cost of 2 rounds (approx. $1.04, i believe, but i’m sure ilsm would have an accurate number) was much cheaper than the trial bill the taxpayers would’ve picked up.
the american electorate is not the only factor in what comes next. and no, i can’t really enjoy the moment. but probably not for any reasons you could understand.
patriotism is about loving one’s country. people hoo hooing like apes are not demonstrating any love of country. they are just expressing a primitive emotion like winning a football game. similar to patriotism but without any actual mental content.
patriotism might have more to do with paying your taxes.
as for the “joke” you are paying attention only to what you want to see. the anti war left is still very much anti obama war just the way they were anti bush war. what you may not see is organized opposition to obama from the democrat party or newspapers that identify with the democratic party… very few as they are… and these while not a joke are “political.”
back in the day, the anti war left was pretty much loud against LBJ who was, I think, a Democrat in the White House.
But hang on to your own reality. It will see you through times of trouble times of doubt.
when you see people carrying the American flag on their way to take away your freedom… well, i expect you will just be too confused to know what to think.
i should not get involved, but i thought i’d point out that Joel was not practicing science, or claiming proof, much less proof by analogy.
the analogy was intended to simplify and clarify your logical error, which was pretty much obvious to the rest of us, and completely mysterious to you.
and here. for me, the issue is not whether you are right about the waterboarding.. i have no way of knowing… but that your logic is bad and your imagining that you have the superior knowledge of “science” is ridiculous.
in all kindness i wish you would find something better to do with your time.
i don’t follow Obama closely enough to know about his speeches. I do remember the “I ordered..” form of previous presidents ordering attacks… so I suspect that in this case at least Sammy is not correct about the egotism.
I don’t know what Bush’s reply has to do with anything.
And yes I am very worried about Obama’s “game” on Social Security. Part of me is hoping he means it when he says he will protect it. But i’d feel better if he was showing anything I could recognize as leadership. But i am not even seeing responsible leadership from the official protectors of Social Security, so I suspect that 30 years of propaganda has succeeded. People are not generally capable of understanding anything, they never think, but chain associate sound bites and imagine they are thinking. Put enough sound bites into the public “dialogue” and you can control what the people “think.” Including their Presidents. And even the opposition doesn’t think.. it just reacts to the emotional content.
Then, as for the BS… that is just inflammatory language that makes it impossible for YOU to think. Me, I already done my thinking… on SS anyway. I don’t really much care if the Pres is an egotist… but you should look up the protocol for announcements of attacks ordered by “the president” before you conclude that you are seeing an example of egotism… or that it is bullshit to suggest that you may not.
Uh Huh! “And the rest of the war adds up to another $4T.” Lessee is that WAR SPENDING or defense spending? Because if its defense spending it must truly be misspent. Remember the calls that we are doing too little to protect the ports, nuclear facilities, shopping malls, schools etc, etc? All of that WAR spending?
All of this because we flew planes into three facilities and the ground.
i have some admiration for the Seals/CIA ability to pull this off, and since I am more or less on record as favoring this approach as compared to say, bombing Bagdad or even surgical bombing of neighbrhoods “known” to harbor “high value targets” I am not in a position to complain.
But you ought at least to understand the difference between attacking a private home and “enemy combatants on a battlefield.”
burial at sea gets rid of the body. hardly proves “we got OBL.”
you won’t understand the extreme importance of “due process” as a way of preventing descent into tyranny, because like all mobs you start out on the side of the tyrant… or imagine he is on your side. but it is very short sighted, if not morally repugnant, to equate “american justice” with torture of the accused. and it is morally repugnant to imagine that “saving money” is a good reason for avoiding a trial. or that a trial is just a kind of ritual before the punishment. it is supposed to have something to do with determining the facts so that at least we have a chance of not fooling ourselves.
From Congressman Peter King, who has been briefed by those involved, a claim that it was due directly to the weatherboarding of KSM and Al Libbi. But, you go ahead and believe the AP report, because the misinformation is unlimited and sure knowledge is very limited.
And with this, Coberly takes the moral high ground: “and no, i can’t really enjoy the moment. but probably not for any reasons you could understand.
patriotism is about loving one’s country….”
Then loses it in another Coberly-style veiled threat: “when you see people carrying the American flag on their way to take away your freedom… well, i expect you will just be too confused to know what to think.“
and a personal attack: “and here. for me, the issue is not whether you are right about the waterboarding.. i have no way of knowing… but that your logic is bad and your imagining that you have the superior knowledge of “science” is ridiculous.
in all kindness i wish you would find something better to do with your time.”
It was so much a better blog when he was pre-moderated.
Until the culture changes that breed these people we won’t have large changes. We will still be in Iraq, Afghanistan and (my bet) soon Libya along with our very large prescence in the ME
Are we talking about piece of offal bankers in the city of Londen, who have spent the last couple hundred years using British and American soldiers as personal errrand boys?
Or are we talking about the fourth estate which has been co-opted, by the piece of offal bankers into calumnious propaganda organs, beating the drums of war intill the anglo american populations salivates like a hydrophobic dog?
Or are we talking about the Arab street which is tired of getting spit upon. Tired having there leaders expected to act as towel boys for city of londen bankers?
The culture that is malignant, and the cause of war and suffering is your own. Look to the plank in your own eye, rather then the speck in the eye of the Islamic world.
I will skip your criptic response. LBJ left office 43 years ago. I have no memory of him as President and little of Vietnam. My kids think of Vietnam in the same way they think of Korea or the Mexican-American War – ancient history. No one cares about the marches to protest the war in the 60s. Sorry its not relevant.
What is relevant is the anti-war left has disappeared since Obama took office. Its quite obvious that no one on the left gives a crap about all the actions that the evil Bush/Cheney team did as long as a ‘D’ does it. Obama has been an almost seemless extension of the Bush foriegn policies, and were he has deviated its been to up-gun from Bush’s position (Afghanistan Surge, Libya).
Yet the antiwar left can’t even get a decent protest launched let-alonoe covered. BTW, has Cindy Sheehan gotten to visit the White House and meet Obama?
The anti-war left is a joke, by its own (lack) of action.
And Patriotism is not defined by paying taxes. Paying taxes is the law, enforced by men with guns, so I do it becuase I don’t like the idea of a jail cell…
And I truely feel sorry for you for not being able to celebrate an American Victory.
it’s comforting to know that the purveyor of the moral compass resides here at AB, although i do enjoy the quips.
on a slightly different topic, i read in today’s wsj that our beloved treasury sec said that if the debt ceiling wasn’t raised that social security checks would stop. i am under the impression from the local expert that, as a separate trust fund, that would not be the case?
I don’t think this affects US problems like the budget, jobs, etc.
But, as someone a bit closer to people who died and people who lost someone, I welcome this man’s death. It is purely symbolic, yes. But, it is something you want deep in your gut – pretty or not. And when it comes you may not run out on the street with a flag but that feeling in your gut rejoices and rejoins the rest of your body. I don’t know how else to describe it.
Osama bin Laden sleeps with the fishes. This seems appropriate and satisfying.
You are not paying attention, AT ALL, if you have missed Obama’s use of first person all the time. Its in all his speeches and even sites like Matthew Yglesious, Kevin Drum, and TalkLeft have mentioned it. Yes if he had said “I ordered this attack…” ONCE it would be fine. Same with the rest of his speeches. But Obama doesn’t.
Sammy is right here. Its just how Obama speaks when on the teleprompter and it sound extreamy narcisstic. And its been noticed everywhere….
Your responses so far seem to have a distinct lack of contact with reality. In case you missed it we are at war. (ilsm will be more than happy to detail the costs). The Cheney Assassination Squad (Ooops now called Obama’s Assassination Squad) conducted a military operation against a defended compound to kill or capture the Senior Leader of the organization the executed 9/11. This was the battlefield. Just as if we had sent in a comando raid and taken out Hitler at his private home in Berchesgarten. Are you really that clueless?
As for getting rid of the body – there are lots and lots of articles on the web on why we did it. Go read up on it. They did DNA, etc etc to make sure they got the right guy and even OBL’s wife is saying we killed him. So I’m certain that its OBL feeding the crabs today. I don’t see you as a conspiracy type – joining the truthers?
And lastly OBL was not killed to save money. He died becuase he didn’t surrender and its was not worth risking a US life to take him alive. I am extreamly proud of SealTeam6 for pulling this off without losing a man. The saving money was a nice bonus but not a goal. We didn’t fool ourselves at all.
You just can’t seem to enjoy a US Victory at all, can you?
Golda Mier did not just off Eichmann, and toss him to the fishes. At an operational level things would have undoubtably been easier had she done so. but by capturing him and placing him on trial, the world had no doubt as to the authenticity of the event.
Eichmann’s capture put Adenhauer’s government in panick mode, lest Eichmann start pointing fingers towards closeted nazi’s. Following Eichmann’s capture millions of Duetsch marks started pouring into Isreal.
Is America’s new found love for extra judical punishment greater then its love for torture? Who better to have water boarded the Osama bin Laden?
Something stinks about this narrative. This government doesn’t just lie to indians anymore. I still think bin Laden died years ago and this whole thing is just a lousy publicity stunt.
I am sure Peter King has no agenda. Sure, the AP could be wrong — but even if they are, there is no evidence torture was necessary to get the information.
you are rapidly joining the co rev delusional and solipsist party.
i remember lbj. what is relevant about that is the “anti war left” has always been “non partisan.”
when you decide that everyone who disagrees with you is “unpatriotic” you are making the same mistake that caused the Civil War. the same mistake that led to the Third Reich.
Fortunately there are patriots with more intellligence and a better grip on reality than you have.
if you were a patriot it wouldn’t take men with guns to get you to pay the taxes needed to defend america.
if you were intelligent you would understand that defending america is not limited to buying overpriced guns.
and if you were a human being you might begin to understand that killing people is not something to celebrate… even if from time to time you have to do it in self defense.
i forget the name of the Spanish American War captain who after destroying an enemy ship in action said, “Don’t cheer men, those bastards are dying.”
The “men” had a reason to cheer… they had been in danger and they fought and won. The captain had a better reason not to cheer.
You, Buff, have never been in danger in your life. You have no reason to cheer.
I haven’t seen anything official, but the chopper was lost due to pilot-error in the confined area around the target site causing the roters to stall. Chopper was then badly damaged in the resulting crash. Then off course blown up when the Seals left.
sadly, (i think) the congress can stop the checks even though the money is in the bank.
there are a couple of complications. first the congress has to authorize the budget of the SS administration… even though the SS adminsitration is paid for entirely by payroll tax.. that is SS contributions.
second.. if (i’m not keeping up) SS is currently cash flow negative… as long expected and planned for… the money it put in the Trust Fund and lent to the government can only be paid back by “government expenditures” meaning taxes or more borrowing “from the public.”
this is NOT “adding to the deficit” but i despair of ever teaching you the difference between paying your debts and just spending money for the fun of it.
you can’t seem to imagine i have a point of view that is not the same as your straw man’s.
as I recall we were in a declared war against hitler, with military forces on both sides shooting at each other. we are not at war with pakistan.
this does not mean i wouldn’t have raided that house to get obama, or killed him if needed, or even… because i understand combat… killed some innocent people in the process. it does mean the situation is different from “combat in a war zone.” your inability to tell the difference speaks to the moral failure and looming political failure of the United States as currently governed and “supported” by the people who have forgotten what the American Idea is all about.
my comment about money saving was directed at “jeff in indy” who seemed to think that saving the cost of a trial was a sufficiently good excuse for gunning down or lynching people accused by the government of being enemies of the people.
tell you the truth, it’s a good enough excuse for my dogs, but it doesn’t say much about a human being who believes it, or a government that promulgates it.
kharris CoRev has allowed himself to be misled. AP was the source of the initial claim that torture helped produce the information needed to capture Bin Laden. AP has since corrected that report. As other commenters here suggested, the guy who spilled the beans was tortured, but it was not during torture that he did the spilling.
“Mohammed did not reveal the names while being subjected to the simulated drowning technique known as waterboarding, former officials said. He identified them many months later under standard interrogation, they said,…”
The unseemly thing about the traction this torture-loving story got is also its most predictable feature – it was people who have backed torture in the past who rushed to claim credit for torture this time. Nobody gets points for cheering for their own side of an argument when the first tentative evidence that their side may have a point floats out. Points off, in fact.
And points of for buffy, too, for resorting to the same sort of sweeping dismissal of anything he doesn’t care to credit. “Nobody” cares about what happened under LBJ. There’s a shelf in my local library that begs to differ. The left doesn’t criticize Obama for doing what they criticized Bush for doing? Like many such utterly mistaken comments, there can be only two explanations for what buffy wrote – ignorance or dishonesty. Whichever it is, there is simply no sense in crediting anything buffy writes or says, as long as he is capable of making the kind of statements he has made here with such chest-thumping certainty.
usually i agree with you. and i don’t disagree with you so much here that i would choose to make an issue of it. but let me offer this
a few weeks ago we celebrated Easter. the story of Easter is about a good man who was tortured and killed by the government of his country. the message that man had been preaching was something about restraining our murderous hearts when dealing with our “enemies.”
some of us think he was on to something. people more religious than i am think something along the lines that his execution was supposed to make us pretty shy about executing anyone.
unfortunately “religious” people since then have muddied up that message a good deal. and my own objections to executions tend to me a little more pragmatic than religious…. where pragmatism often (not always) has something to do with my ideas about the way to safely govern a country.
those folks who want to govern for “satisfying” their emotions are always in danger of “calling upon their destroyer.”
The mission reliability is 75/66%. Mission reliability of a “system” includes operator errors. Operators cause failures all the time.
That is a testers view which is ignored most of the time, and operational systems bought that have excuses instead of mission reliability.
If you or I say the logistics/materiel reliability is 100% and support it by proving pilot error okay, but mission reliability requires the machine to get home with a win.
Vortex Ring State? Or contact with obstruction? Or transmission failure? Banged the tail on the wall? VRS from the wall?
How many Class A’s are pilot error?
These pilots are better than their really good mechanics!
cursed, My compliments. That’s probably the most salient comment from you, and in general on the blog, in a long while. “..hyfrophobic dogs” and “plank in the eye” say it all with a renewed clarity.
Below is copied from another blog on another subject, but its meaning seems more than appropriate for several commenters here at AB.
“Some folks just can’t stand the notion that another person might not agree with them and that person could, in fact, be both quite sane and reasonably intelligent. For some reason, those poorly tolerant folks, seem especially fond of saying mean things.
While I’ve never really understood that behaviour, being much more prone to simply asking “why do you believe that?” instead of saying “You idiot!” (or moron as has appeared here) (as the former generally brings polite conversation while the later generally causes nothing good to happen); the fact is that folks continue to do it. Even when repeatedly asked to be more polite.
ILSM, fascinating question. War can be started by multiple parties, and this one we DID NOT START. So, self preservation might be the most appropriate answer. Retaliation to stop/deter repeated attacks is another. As far as Iraq may be concerned, removal of a possible source of weaponry, AND, to stop a high level of crimes against humanity, as in Libya.
As always YMMV, especially when focused only on the “L” in war fighting.
Well, I didn’t ask for your understanding. I also didn’t say that the government should sprout from my gut. My gut will be glad with this outcome no matter what it means about me. He sleeps with the fishes; a hidden anger emerges, sweeps across my body, and into the soul of fishes.
Last comment as we get so off topic. The rotors stalled, due to the confined space and unpredictable landing winds, in the tricky part of the assault landing. Resulted in a hard landing and fatal damage to the blades (among other parts). Helicopter was a mort at this point. Life happens sometimes.
About half of all class A’s are pilot error if my memory serves – probably higher.
The helicopter performed 100%. You don’t blame the mechanic when the pilot flies it into a hill (how I lost my first friend in an aircraft accident).
So get off the high horse that it was all becuase Bell built crappy helicopters.
The fact is that we don’t really know squat about anythiing going on in Afghanistan or Pakistan. Our government operatives, elected and otherwise, have told enough lies and created sufficient deceptions as to allow significant doubt aboout any new news. Being a Democrat or a Republican is irrelevant in this regard. They have all participated in this process of bending and shaping the truth of so many matters. Why should we now take any report on its word? There is enough doubt floating through the air that our elected and appoiinted representatives exhale that any thing said is open to question without demonstrable evidence. In the current case of bin Laden that evidence is now at the bottom of some sea, or so we are told. That was probably the dumbest thing that could have been done. If they could drag his carcass to the ocean tneh certainly they could have out him on ice and brought home definitive proof of their sorry deed.
This isn’t the USSR. This isn’t the Korea of Kim Jong-il. This isn’t, or wasn’t, some Darth Vader Empire Strikes Back comic book scenario. This is the United States of America, freedom and justice for all and we treat our worst enemies in accordance with a sense of justice. Our Constitution states clearly that our government proves its accusations against its criminals and its enemies. This is not Tojo Japan nor the Fourth Reich. We disgrace our concept of justice in a worse way with each passing act of beligerence and/or revenge and retribution. We prove our points of law before an impartial arbiter. We’re moviing backwards fast and I’m astounded that Obama is leading us down this road to perdition.
If you read the Aviation Week report, posted today about the crashed helicopter you should reconsider.As you know ORM is operational risk management, a side line of mine like reliability similar math and such.This crash may have been an issue of the stealthy stuff making the flight envelop too tight and not suit the aircraft for the job. Like the MV 22 cannot descend fast enough to try a hot LZ, this super stealth “black” helo may not be safe in a tight LZ for one reason or another mechanical or aerodynamic. Similar concerns bad maintenance, low reliability or bad suitability for the job all lead to mission loses. But hell just buy another unsuitable aircraft like this one!! The taxpayers’ got plenty of dough!
Good god, talk about the pot and the kettle both being black. Or is that encrusted with burnt on debris? I won’t go back over the many past comments made on the many past threads for the evidence, but suffice it to say that I can clearly recall your having denigrated something I have written with a dismissive and insulting remark. One need not use the terms idiot, moron or imbecile to insult a conversant. Taking a holier than thou position is equally insulting and you have often set your ideological rants on an undeserved higher plane.
i have to laugh about “pilot error” a bit, because I knew a Nam pilot who got charged with pilot error when he got shot down. The desk soldiers decided he coulda saved it. No doubt they could have too, not being shot at at the time.
it is your complete lack of self knowledge that exasperates me. but just to be cruel i’ll say again, having dealt with a lot of ordinary human beings, and a fair number of mental patients, and sadly, friends who grew old, and watching my own deterioration from inside, i fell i can fully understand yours, and i’d be sympathetic, and kind, if you weren’t so obnoxious to me, and rude.. and yes, wrong about things i think it is dangerous to be wrong about it a public space.
well people disagree about what scripture means, but i get a strong feeling when i read it that Jesus wants us to discover for ourselves what it means to “Love God…” Which I think means “testing all things” meaning you are your own moral compass whether you like it or not. but, hell, even the existentialists say that.
For Jack and Dale, let me repeat the first paragraph: “Some folks just can’t stand the notion that another person might not agree with them and that person could, in fact, be both quite sane and reasonably intelligent. For some reason, those poorly tolerant folks, seem especially fond of saying mean things….”
Dale, these freudian slips are telling: “…but just to be cruel i’ll say again,…” And this is what you said to Anna just seconds prior to your comment to me: “glad you are so self satisfied that you can be rude about my humble opinion.”
Your opinions are seldom humble, and too often wrong.
can’t say i “deduced” anything. i took “i didn’t ask for your understanding” as a rude brush off.
i haven’t lost anyone to terrorists, but my reaction to even minor “hurts” is often homicidal, so i have had to become particularly aware of the need for a restraining influence. the purpose of “government” even if it’s only a council of grandfathers and grandmothers is to provide some wisdom to restrain the emotions of the tribe that would lead only to more and worse hurt if given expression.
that doesn’t make the emotions wrong. it does tell us that when we have a government that encourages tribal rage and personal greed, we don’t have a wise government.
no Freudian slip. I was being ironic… and self deprecating. and while it is useless to say it, your inability to see your own rudeness will i suppose make you always wonder why people are so mean to you.
i am never humble. and i am often wrong. but i check my work, and listen hard to criticism.the time may come… may have come, how would i know?… when my brain fails and i can no longer even suspect that i might be wrong even when my friends urge me to take up a new hobby..
thing is, i still do things where being wrong shows up in unmistakable fashion… so what i can say is that i make lots more mistakes than i used to, but i still seem able to recognize them, and fix them, at least when they are pointed out.
This weakens the Jihadist movement as a competitor to the Arab Spring. Jihadism is a ‘dead end’ and the future (at least for now) is the ‘Arab Spring’.
America thus needs a coherent policy for the Arab Spring movement more than ever right now.
I just don’t spend that much time thinking about him.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=4PGmnz5Ow-o
Rdan,
Lots of implications, but first kudos to President Obama for ordering the strike and to the SEAL teams for puling it off. Further kudos to the President for his short, matter of fact speech. And it also looks like the diplomatic team managed it very well with the Pakistani’s on that end also. Also a nice touch by Obama to call Clinton and Bush to tell them about the event. Classy, I didn’t think Obama had it in him. All in all a fine job. (My only minor quibble is not mounting OBL’s head on a pike on the White House fence as is traditional….).
Political-domestic: Trump will disappear from the headlines (thank God!) and go back to making money in NYC. This also nicely takes the entire birther crap clean out of the news cycle. A nice break for the President here. Obama will get a nice spike in the polls that will be no factor in the election in 2012. (See Bush I). At best it shows he’s Presidential and willing to take big risks and takes away the ‘days not weeks’ issue in Libya off the table for a few days. (maybe more depending on overseas reactions). The Reps will give him a few days break before coming back to hit the Dems over the head with the ballooning deficit.
Political-foriegn affairs: Depending on Hillery’s involvement this may make her look very good and be a big feather in her run for President (if she does). Pakistan may go up in flames and is the big question mark. This raid wasn’t a few miles across the border into Wasiristan, but a 100+ mile attack deep into Pakistan with US SEALS boots on the ground. I would expect large-scale riots in Pakistan over this. Its already coming out that Pakistan’s gov was involved (even though claiming it wasn’t). (Also give Obama more kudos for giving the Pak Gov some plausible deniability). This should be interesting.
As for the War on terror overall. Not much, if anything will change. Another will come forward to fill OBL’s spot. Until the culture changes that breed these people we won’t have large changes. We will still be in Iraq, Afghanistan and (my bet) soon Libya along with our very large prescence in the ME (que ilsm and is perfunctory military waste post). GITMO will stay open and none of the post 9/11 security legislation will be repealed. TSA won’t close down anytime soon. Obama will clearly continue Bush’s policies or increase them. So not much will change in the bigger picture.
Last thought, this takes the Syrian slaughter of the protestors there out of the news-cycle. Expect the Syrian gov to take advantage of this and crackdown hard while the spotlight is off. And the deaths of part of Quadaffy’s family will be old news by the time this event quiet’s down.
All-in-all a very good day for the US. I especially liked the celebrations that broke out. Patriotism isn’t dead yet.
Islam will change
What GregL Said is true, just not complete.
Do a lot of us in and around NYC feel better? Yes, but no one should go off those PTSD meds yet.
Will we be able to bring a 12 oz. bottle of soda through airport security now? No.
Will the dead come back to life? No.
Will there be fewer dead going forward in Afghanistan and/or Iraq? Overall, probably yes.
in that context, the big winners:
1) France. Large population of Muslim immigrants who have not been able to find jobs. While OBL was alive, they could romanticize “opposition” as something that “is better than starving.” No longer so.
2) Spain–more limited (see EU pillaging of their economy), but same argument. Madrid bombing victim families and friends: see NYC comment above.
3) Afghanistan — Weren’t hiding Bin Laden all these years (at least since the Bush Admin. bollix at Tora Bora). Bad news is it’s still Afghanistan: the worst British creation between renaming the House of Windsor and David Blaine. (Yes, I’m very much including pretending there were no Palestinians living in Palestine in that range.)
Losers:
1) Pakistan – Good news: BarryO was a man of his word: said he would go into sovereign Pakistan to kill OBL and did so. Bad news: didn’t tell the Government until after it was done. Worse news: government factions battling each other is what led to Aug 2010-April 2011 period of increased cooperation. Does not bode well long-term.
2) Tom Friedman and everyone else who declared that Obama “was living in a cave,” “didn’t have freedom,” etc. In that context, the American people for the past eight years of farce.
3) Libya – Killing Qadaffi’s sons the same day is a mixed blessing. There will–may take a few years, but there will–be a well-financed cult of opposition to those killings (much moreso than Saddam’s ne’er-do-wells). With OBL dead, there is no face for “al Queda”–which means a separate structure will be built to “avenge” those deaths.
4) The rest of the world. Following on from [3] above, the factional possibilities among the disenfranchised have been significantly reduced. The RevengeforQ’sSons group (assuming it is formed) will not have a rival worth mentioning in the 10-15 year time horizon. Single focus strengthens the terror org–bad for those against whom they would perform acts.
That’s my quick guess; still hope to be wrong about the last two on the Losers side.
Strange as it may be, waterboarding was the source of the basic intelligence. Will Obama reinstate, even if off shore?
Otherwise everything already said above is probable.
Stark contrast:
Film of front line soldiers in Afghanistan watch the president: respectfully subdued.
Contrast: future “leaders” of the military industrial complex break curfew at West Point.
Which would you call patriot?
Will there be a Delta Force for 500 years?
Buffpilot: “Political-domestic: Trump will disappear from the headlines (thank God!) and go back to m/a/k/i/n/g/ losing money in NYC and on casinos.”
There. Fixed.
Ken,
Good Point!!! I stand corrected! And don’t forget his forgettable TV show!
😉
Trump has a TV show?? Srsly?
All I want is for us to leave Afghanistan. But, the death of OBL will have no effect on our presence there. We are in Afghanistan because of Pakistan and for no any other reason. We’ll stay in Iraq with the 50K “noncombatant” troops there. We’ll pay higher gas prices this summer because of Libya or whatever reason comes along. (Don’t forget shut downs for maintenance of stateside refineries. That’s coming any day now.) We’ll let the Arab Spring groups make it or break it on their own. And, Syria will impose Hama rules sooner or later.
This President and all those who follow him will exercise the powers Bush 43 exercised. To do otherwise is to be weak. Civilian surveillance, Gitmo, clandestine renditions and the lot are here to stay.
The US planned and executed a brilliant military operation. No question. And, now back to reality. The world is still the same and OBL might as well still be alive. The MIC will rejoice and grow stronger. And, ilsm and I will keep on nagging about the cost of subsidizing the Pentagon. Nothing will change. NancyO
Those engaged in personal attacks on the President look very small. Those attacks look like they are simply racially motivated at this point and those who persist will be marginalized. The Republican strategy of dancing with the racists while servicing Wall Street will unravel.
I see this as a diversion away from all the BAD news that is the budget talks and the economic uncertainty…especially since this week that ‘group of 6’ senators are devising a budget which is more than likely going to contain massive social spending cuts; in a nutshell, austerity measures.
I think this news arouses some sort of nationalist sentiment in the country (with images of people celebrating in the streets) which will aide the current Regime in being ‘legitimate’ in the eyes of the people and ALLOW whatever kind of budget that is devised, to be put into action without resistance!
i guess we’ll see what happens…I just dont see any sense in killing the man, and “burying him at sea” when I and other Americans would probably much rather see him detained, face the courts for crimes against humanity and rot in jail for the rest of his life…all we have is the word that he is ‘dead’..unsatisfying
So, it took 8+ years after getting information from waterboarding to find Usama and you think that is a good idea? I am pretty sure the interrogators could get a nickname without waterboarding and perhaps even more information (as they seemed to shut down once they started getting tortured).Not to mention the BS from waterboarding that helped convince Bush to go into Iraq.
If Obama reinstates, he is an idiot.
Actually, there is not an atom of evidence that waterboarding had anything to do with this.
There is a statement that a person who had been waterboarded provided intelligence, but there is no evidence that the intelligence came as a result of waterboarding.
Moron.
Jim, I stated a simple point. No value judgement, no emoting, just a follow-on question.
Sheesh!
Joel, so which is it? “ there is not an atom of evidence that waterboarding had anything to do with this.” or “There is a statement that a person who had been waterboarded provided intelligence,…”
And you used the term moron, but not for yourself?
Wow, CoRev. You’ve outdone yourself in self-parody.
Where is the contradiction?
Let’s try an analogy. Maybe that will help you sort this intellectual thicket. I’ll type slowly so you can follow:
At some time in my past, I was required to do yard work out in the hot sun (analogy to torture, CoRev).
At a later point in my life, I published my first scientific paper (analogy to providing intelligence, CoRev).
Now, there is not an atom of evidence that the yard work that I experienced earlier resulted in my first scienfic paper.
Now do you follow, CoRev?
Now do you see how your silly non sequitur reasoning leads others to conclude that you are a moron?
Proof by analogy, Joel? Now, that’s good science.
Buff
patriotism is not chanting HU Hess Hay HU Hess Hay. really, it’s not.
as for “these people,” to be honest they look a lot like my neighbors in … America. they think they are being patriotic.
is it really all about “the news cycles”?
burying at sea? what’s that all about?
Implications? Could be anything from a major victory in the GWOT to insignificant. I am leaning towards the former, but I don’t know enough to be sure. We shall see.
What I do know is that I was struck by the amount of personal credit BHO gave himself in the speech: “I made….” “I was briefed…..” “I determined…..” “at my direction……” What was all that? A weak person trying to look strong? A narcissist? What?
My only hope about this event is that it is the end of the beginning.
Me neither. Evidently that’s not true of most people.
Apparently Osama Bin Ladin had the balls of the entire male population of the University of Delaware. With him gone they all came out to celebrate last night:
http://www.delawareonline.com/article/20110502/NEWS/110502038/1003/RSS01
I never lost my balls. I got them right here, where I always had them.
sammy
i think if you look at Bush speeches on the same subject, you will find the same “first person”. I suspect it is quite formal and the required protocol. Means I take responsibility. I am the President. I acted AS the president.
as for the significance… i lean toward insignificant, except for American morale. Osama changed America and may have done for us what Reagan is said to have done for the Soviet Union. So he will be a martyr for the people who think they are patriots fighting for their country against the imperialist crusaders.
please understand *I* don’t think this. THEY do.
coberly,
i think if you look at Bush speeches on the same subject, you will find the same “first person”.
Bullshit. Here is a text of the Bush’s “Missioned Accomplished” speech:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/05/01/iraq/main551946.shtml
Notice the prevelant use of “we” and “our”? That is normal.
Another brilliant publicity stunt which will never be absolutely proven to be true. That’s what the “burial at sea stunt” is all about. In a single day of public apoplexy over the reported death of one man the stupendous waste of money and lives in the middle east wars has been justified. A brilliant bit of distraction from the genuine problems faced by our country. What has been accomplished by this act which itself will never be proven to have taken place as it has been described? No loss to humanity if bin Laden is in fact dead, but what good is done by the manner in which it has been done? Criminals need to be brought to trial so that the victims of their crimes can see justice done. Burials at sea are no substitute for an exposure through trial, and hopefully conviction, for crimes one is accused of having committed. The conviction of the guilty after the presentation of evidence at trial is a cathartic process for those victims. A grudge killing carried out in secret with a secretive disposal of the evidence of the deed will serve only to increase the uncertainty of the past ten years. The catharsis taking place in the streets over the past 24 hours will be short lived once the uncertainty begins to take hold. Very unfortunate.
Well, let’s see. Let’s celebrate killing and plunder with more killing and plunder.
In any case it will make the defense portion of the budget much more palatable to all.
Well, let’s see. Let’s celebrate killing and plunder with more killing and plunder.
In any case it will make the defense portion of the budget much more palatable to all.
Yeah, $709B this year!!!!
Mark P,
We killed him becuase that’s what the Pres. Obama sent them to do and bring back the body. If they could have got him alive so much the better, but no one was going to risk getting shot just to bring him in alive. It also saved the headache of sending him to Gitmo and the trial. (What’s really funny is Jerelyn over at TalkLeft asking for a full forensic evaluation of the action to determine where every bullet was shot and by whom. Its hilarious in lack of touch with reality.)
The bury at sea came about from two reasons (from what I’ve read) 1) No country wanted him buried on their soil, and 2) It prevented any ‘shrine’ being built over his burial site.
Ooops, and 3) becuase President Obama ordered it.
Now we still might see one in his mansion, but I doubt it.
Nice to see Obama using SealTeam 6 – Cheney’s personal assasination squad – to good use!
Islam will change
buff
i am old enough to expect people to do things for dumb reasons, but i am not ready to buy the “so there won’t be a shrine” reason. burial at sea gets rid of the body. not sure i understand why.
sammy
beware of “bullshit” it gets on your hands and you smell bad.
there is a difference between “mission accomplished” and “i ordered…” go look at the bush speeches about ordering the attack on Saddam. i could be wrong. but that doesn’t make it bullshit.
your desperate need to find moral fault with the people who disagree with you makes it almost impossible for you to learn anything. not so much about this tiny question, but more about the big facts of life.
coberly,
I second sammy on the BS. Obama has a glaring use of the first person in ALL of his speeches. You could turn it into a drinking game its so bad. This has been noticed by almost everyone paying attention on both the left and right.
And notice Bush’s very short public reply about the strike in comparison.
And everyone knows the buck stop at Obama’s desk. You of everyone here should know that since its Obama who will lead the charge to gut SS if it happens.
Islam will change
From AP,
“Mohammed did not reveal the names while being subjected to the simulated drowning technique known as waterboarding, former officials said. He identified them many months later under standard interrogation, they said, leaving it once again up for debate as to whether the harsh technique was a valuable tool or an unnecessarily violent tactic.”
I guess the point is moot.
Jack,
SealTeam6 was 100+ miles inside Pakistani territory. We had lost more than a few special ops troops in Pakistan already and they had no time to screw around (especially after losing a chopper). You don’t read enemy combatants their rights on the battlefield. You shoot them. We are in a war, not playing CSI Pakistan.
I have no love lost for Obama and think he may easily rival Carter as the most incompetant President of my lifetime, but on this he got it right. And I have no doubt that we got OBL and then fed him to the fishes.
But this isn’t the end of the war, nor time for America to go back to its slumber (remember the “end of history”) of 9/10/2001. What will be short lived is the idea that this was a V-J day event.
Islam will change
coberly,
Well I liked the celebrations. Nice to see people carrying the US flag proudly and celebrating a US win. Sorry, you can’t enjoy the moment.
But I still wait for the anti-war movement to fill the streets to protest Obama’s blatant violation of Pakistani’ soveriegnty. And of course bombing another Islamic country in Libya. And targetd assassination. Do I need to go on or have you got the point that the anti-war left is a joke. They are only anti-war when ‘their guy’ is not in the White House. Like NOW and Monica/Clinton issue.
As for the news cycles. The short answer is Yes. Syria and Quadaffy’s family are already gone from the headlines and will be minor footnotes if mentioned in the future. Trump will disappear back to reality TV land. Sit back and watch.
Islam will change
i somewhat agree w/jack that the ‘american justice’ part of me wanted a public flogging by trial and eventual death by a thousand cuts (put him in an open prison yard…); ;however, the Marine in me thinks the cost of 2 rounds (approx. $1.04, i believe, but i’m sure ilsm would have an accurate number) was much cheaper than the trial bill the taxpayers would’ve picked up.
buff
the american electorate is not the only factor in what comes next.
and no, i can’t really enjoy the moment. but probably not for any reasons you could understand.
patriotism is about loving one’s country. people hoo hooing like apes are not demonstrating any love of country. they are just expressing a primitive emotion like winning a football game. similar to patriotism but without any actual mental content.
patriotism might have more to do with paying your taxes.
as for the “joke” you are paying attention only to what you want to see. the anti war left is still very much anti obama war just the way they were anti bush war. what you may not see is organized opposition to obama from the democrat party or newspapers that identify with the democratic party… very few as they are… and these while not a joke are “political.”
back in the day, the anti war left was pretty much loud against LBJ who was, I think, a Democrat in the White House.
But hang on to your own reality. It will see you through times of trouble times of doubt.
when you see people carrying the American flag on their way to take away your freedom… well, i expect you will just be too confused to know what to think.
CoRev
i should not get involved, but i thought i’d point out that Joel was not practicing science, or claiming proof, much less proof by analogy.
the analogy was intended to simplify and clarify your logical error, which was pretty much obvious to the rest of us, and completely mysterious to you.
and here. for me, the issue is not whether you are right about the waterboarding.. i have no way of knowing… but that your logic is bad and your imagining that you have the superior knowledge of “science” is ridiculous.
in all kindness i wish you would find something better to do with your time.
buff
i don’t follow Obama closely enough to know about his speeches. I do remember the “I ordered..” form of previous presidents ordering attacks… so I suspect that in this case at least Sammy is not correct about the egotism.
I don’t know what Bush’s reply has to do with anything.
And yes I am very worried about Obama’s “game” on Social Security. Part of me is hoping he means it when he says he will protect it. But i’d feel better if he was showing anything I could recognize as leadership. But i am not even seeing responsible leadership from the official protectors of Social Security, so I suspect that 30 years of propaganda has succeeded. People are not generally capable of understanding anything, they never think, but chain associate sound bites and imagine they are thinking. Put enough sound bites into the public “dialogue” and you can control what the people “think.” Including their Presidents. And even the opposition doesn’t think.. it just reacts to the emotional content.
Then, as for the BS… that is just inflammatory language that makes it impossible for YOU to think. Me, I already done my thinking… on SS anyway. I don’t really much care if the Pres is an egotist… but you should look up the protocol for announcements of attacks ordered by “the president” before you conclude that you are seeing an example of egotism… or that it is bullshit to suggest that you may not.
Uh Huh! “And the rest of the war adds up to another $4T.” Lessee is that WAR SPENDING or defense spending? Because if its defense spending it must truly be misspent. Remember the calls that we are doing too little to protect the ports, nuclear facilities, shopping malls, schools etc, etc? All of that WAR spending?
All of this because we flew planes into three facilities and the ground.
buff
i have some admiration for the Seals/CIA ability to pull this off, and since I am more or less on record as favoring this approach as compared to say, bombing Bagdad or even surgical bombing of neighbrhoods “known” to harbor “high value targets” I am not in a position to complain.
But you ought at least to understand the difference between attacking a private home and “enemy combatants on a battlefield.”
burial at sea gets rid of the body. hardly proves “we got OBL.”
jeff
you won’t understand the extreme importance of “due process” as a way of preventing descent into tyranny, because like all mobs you start out on the side of the tyrant… or imagine he is on your side. but it is very short sighted, if not morally repugnant, to equate “american justice” with torture of the accused. and it is morally repugnant to imagine that “saving money” is a good reason for avoiding a trial. or that a trial is just a kind of ritual before the punishment. it is supposed to have something to do with determining the facts so that at least we have a chance of not fooling ourselves.
From Congressman Peter King, who has been briefed by those involved, a claim that it was due directly to the weatherboarding of KSM and Al Libbi. But, you go ahead and believe the AP report, because the misinformation is unlimited and sure knowledge is very limited.
And with this, Coberly takes the moral high ground: “and no, i can’t really enjoy the moment. but probably not for any reasons you could understand.
patriotism is about loving one’s country….”
Then loses it in another Coberly-style veiled threat: “when you see people carrying the American flag on their way to take away your freedom… well, i expect you will just be too confused to know what to think.“
and a personal attack: “and here. for me, the issue is not whether you are right about the waterboarding.. i have no way of knowing… but that your logic is bad and your imagining that you have the superior knowledge of “science” is ridiculous.
in all kindness i wish you would find something better to do with your time.”
It was so much a better blog when he was pre-moderated.
Until the culture changes that breed these people we won’t have large changes. We will still be in Iraq, Afghanistan and (my bet) soon Libya along with our very large prescence in the ME
Are we talking about piece of offal bankers in the city of Londen, who have spent the last couple hundred years using British and American soldiers as personal errrand boys?
Or are we talking about the fourth estate which has been co-opted, by the piece of offal bankers into calumnious propaganda organs, beating the drums of war intill the anglo american populations salivates like a hydrophobic dog?
Or are we talking about the Arab street which is tired of getting spit upon. Tired having there leaders expected to act as towel boys for city of londen bankers?
The culture that is malignant, and the cause of war and suffering is your own. Look to the plank in your own eye, rather then the speck in the eye of the Islamic world.
coberly,
I will skip your criptic response. LBJ left office 43 years ago. I have no memory of him as President and little of Vietnam. My kids think of Vietnam in the same way they think of Korea or the Mexican-American War – ancient history. No one cares about the marches to protest the war in the 60s. Sorry its not relevant.
What is relevant is the anti-war left has disappeared since Obama took office. Its quite obvious that no one on the left gives a crap about all the actions that the evil Bush/Cheney team did as long as a ‘D’ does it. Obama has been an almost seemless extension of the Bush foriegn policies, and were he has deviated its been to up-gun from Bush’s position (Afghanistan Surge, Libya).
Yet the antiwar left can’t even get a decent protest launched let-alonoe covered. BTW, has Cindy Sheehan gotten to visit the White House and meet Obama?
The anti-war left is a joke, by its own (lack) of action.
And Patriotism is not defined by paying taxes. Paying taxes is the law, enforced by men with guns, so I do it becuase I don’t like the idea of a jail cell…
And I truely feel sorry for you for not being able to celebrate an American Victory.
Islam will change
it’s comforting to know that the purveyor of the moral compass resides here at AB, although i do enjoy the quips.
on a slightly different topic, i read in today’s wsj that our beloved treasury sec said that if the debt ceiling wasn’t raised that social security checks would stop. i am under the impression from the local expert that, as a separate trust fund, that would not be the case?
I don’t think this affects US problems like the budget, jobs, etc.
But, as someone a bit closer to people who died and people who lost someone, I welcome this man’s death. It is purely symbolic, yes. But, it is something you want deep in your gut – pretty or not. And when it comes you may not run out on the street with a flag but that feeling in your gut rejoices and rejoins the rest of your body. I don’t know how else to describe it.
Osama bin Laden sleeps with the fishes. This seems appropriate and satisfying.
coberly,
You are not paying attention, AT ALL, if you have missed Obama’s use of first person all the time. Its in all his speeches and even sites like Matthew Yglesious, Kevin Drum, and TalkLeft have mentioned it. Yes if he had said “I ordered this attack…” ONCE it would be fine. Same with the rest of his speeches. But Obama doesn’t.
Sammy is right here. Its just how Obama speaks when on the teleprompter and it sound extreamy narcisstic. And its been noticed everywhere….
Islam will change
coberly,
Your responses so far seem to have a distinct lack of contact with reality. In case you missed it we are at war. (ilsm will be more than happy to detail the costs). The Cheney Assassination Squad (Ooops now called Obama’s Assassination Squad) conducted a military operation against a defended compound to kill or capture the Senior Leader of the organization the executed 9/11. This was the battlefield. Just as if we had sent in a comando raid and taken out Hitler at his private home in Berchesgarten. Are you really that clueless?
As for getting rid of the body – there are lots and lots of articles on the web on why we did it. Go read up on it. They did DNA, etc etc to make sure they got the right guy and even OBL’s wife is saying we killed him. So I’m certain that its OBL feeding the crabs today. I don’t see you as a conspiracy type – joining the truthers?
And lastly OBL was not killed to save money. He died becuase he didn’t surrender and its was not worth risking a US life to take him alive. I am extreamly proud of SealTeam6 for pulling this off without losing a man. The saving money was a nice bonus but not a goal. We didn’t fool ourselves at all.
You just can’t seem to enjoy a US Victory at all, can you?
Islam will change
Golda Mier did not just off Eichmann, and toss him to the fishes. At an operational level things would have undoubtably been easier had she done so. but by capturing him and placing him on trial, the world had no doubt as to the authenticity of the event.
Eichmann’s capture put Adenhauer’s government in panick mode, lest Eichmann start pointing fingers towards closeted nazi’s. Following Eichmann’s capture millions of Duetsch marks started pouring into Isreal.
Is America’s new found love for extra judical punishment greater then its love for torture? Who better to have water boarded the Osama bin Laden?
Something stinks about this narrative. This government doesn’t just lie to indians anymore. I still think bin Laden died years ago and this whole thing is just a lousy publicity stunt.
cursed,
The “plank in the eye” is among my favorites. I am surprised it was not editted out by some church conclave.
When I was a Christian, a cleric I knew used it often.
Much easier being a proto-pagan, fewer rules and better holidays.
buff,
I was going to stay out of this, but was the “lost” chopper a reported mechanical fault or was it a shoot down.
If a mechanical fault the the mission reliability of the choppers was 75% if 4 in the package or 66% if 3.
Shoddy at best for the results of the $5T spent, much of it on cost plus technology welfare, in the past 9 years.
But I have been saying this all along.
Good thing the moral strength of the soldier/sailor is several times as important as the unreliable material.
The chopper problem at Carter’s desert one was an ops accident. Took out the mission.
buff,
Was the “victory” tactical, operational or strategic, and wht?
As above. I might add having check the books last night.
Overseas Contingency 2001 through 2010 Est: $1055B Baseline war spending (CoRev take a shot) roughly $4000B.
And the helicopter was not reliable?
The L in ilsm is logistics.
I am happy the kids all got home alive.
ilsm will not change until you pluck the plank from your eye.
The truth don’t have to make sense, but lies need to add up.
I am sure Peter King has no agenda. Sure, the AP could be wrong — but even if they are, there is no evidence torture was necessary to get the information.
buff
you are rapidly joining the co rev delusional and solipsist party.
i remember lbj. what is relevant about that is the “anti war left” has always been “non partisan.”
when you decide that everyone who disagrees with you is “unpatriotic” you are making the same mistake that caused the Civil War. the same mistake that led to the Third Reich.
Fortunately there are patriots with more intellligence and a better grip on reality than you have.
if you were a patriot it wouldn’t take men with guns to get you to pay the taxes needed to defend america.
if you were intelligent you would understand that defending america is not limited to buying overpriced guns.
and if you were a human being you might begin to understand that killing people is not something to celebrate… even if from time to time you have to do it in self defense.
i forget the name of the Spanish American War captain who after destroying an enemy ship in action said, “Don’t cheer men, those bastards are dying.”
The “men” had a reason to cheer… they had been in danger and they fought and won. The captain had a better reason not to cheer.
You, Buff, have never been in danger in your life. You have no reason to cheer.
Buff
in any case, just by coincidence, it is also the way all Presidents speak when they order an attack.
ilsm,
I haven’t seen anything official, but the chopper was lost due to pilot-error in the confined area around the target site causing the roters to stall. Chopper was then badly damaged in the resulting crash. Then off course blown up when the Seals left.
So the choppers were 100% reliable.
Islam will change
jeff
better my moral compass than yours.
sadly, (i think) the congress can stop the checks even though the money is in the bank.
there are a couple of complications. first the congress has to authorize the budget of the SS administration… even though the SS adminsitration is paid for entirely by payroll tax.. that is SS contributions.
second.. if (i’m not keeping up) SS is currently cash flow negative… as long expected and planned for… the money it put in the Trust Fund and lent to the government can only be paid back by “government expenditures” meaning taxes or more borrowing “from the public.”
this is NOT “adding to the deficit” but i despair of ever teaching you the difference between paying your debts and just spending money for the fun of it.
buff
you can’t seem to imagine i have a point of view that is not the same as your straw man’s.
as I recall we were in a declared war against hitler, with military forces on both sides shooting at each other. we are not at war with pakistan.
this does not mean i wouldn’t have raided that house to get obama, or killed him if needed, or even… because i understand combat… killed some innocent people in the process. it does mean the situation is different from “combat in a war zone.” your inability to tell the difference speaks to the moral failure and looming political failure of the United States as currently governed and “supported” by the people who have forgotten what the American Idea is all about.
my comment about money saving was directed at “jeff in indy” who seemed to think that saving the cost of a trial was a sufficiently good excuse for gunning down or lynching people accused by the government of being enemies of the people.
tell you the truth, it’s a good enough excuse for my dogs, but it doesn’t say much about a human being who believes it, or a government that promulgates it.
kharris
CoRev has allowed himself to be misled. AP was the source of the initial claim that torture helped produce the information needed to capture Bin Laden. AP has since corrected that report. As other commenters here suggested, the guy who spilled the beans was tortured, but it was not during torture that he did the spilling.
“Mohammed did not reveal the names while being subjected to the simulated drowning technique known as waterboarding, former officials said. He identified them many months later under standard interrogation, they said,…”
The unseemly thing about the traction this torture-loving story got is also its most predictable feature – it was people who have backed torture in the past who rushed to claim credit for torture this time. Nobody gets points for cheering for their own side of an argument when the first tentative evidence that their side may have a point floats out. Points off, in fact.
And points of for buffy, too, for resorting to the same sort of sweeping dismissal of anything he doesn’t care to credit. “Nobody” cares about what happened under LBJ. There’s a shelf in my local library that begs to differ. The left doesn’t criticize Obama for doing what they criticized Bush for doing? Like many such utterly mistaken comments, there can be only two explanations for what buffy wrote – ignorance or dishonesty. Whichever it is, there is simply no sense in crediting anything buffy writes or says, as long as he is capable of making the kind of statements he has made here with such chest-thumping certainty.
Anna
usually i agree with you. and i don’t disagree with you so much here that i would choose to make an issue of it. but let me offer this
a few weeks ago we celebrated Easter. the story of Easter is about a good man who was tortured and killed by the government of his country. the message that man had been preaching was something about restraining our murderous hearts when dealing with our “enemies.”
some of us think he was on to something. people more religious than i am think something along the lines that his execution was supposed to make us pretty shy about executing anyone.
unfortunately “religious” people since then have muddied up that message a good deal. and my own objections to executions tend to me a little more pragmatic than religious…. where pragmatism often (not always) has something to do with my ideas about the way to safely govern a country.
those folks who want to govern for “satisfying” their emotions are always in danger of “calling upon their destroyer.”
The mission reliability is 75/66%. Mission reliability of a “system” includes operator errors. Operators cause failures all the time.
That is a testers view which is ignored most of the time, and operational systems bought that have excuses instead of mission reliability.
If you or I say the logistics/materiel reliability is 100% and support it by proving pilot error okay, but mission reliability requires the machine to get home with a win.
Vortex Ring State? Or contact with obstruction? Or transmission failure? Banged the tail on the wall? VRS from the wall?
How many Class A’s are pilot error?
These pilots are better than their really good mechanics!
CoRev,
War, what else is it for except maybe profits and dividend?
cursed,
My compliments. That’s probably the most salient comment from you, and in general on the blog, in a long while. “..hyfrophobic dogs” and “plank in the eye” say it all with a renewed clarity.
Below is copied from another blog on another subject, but its meaning seems more than appropriate for several commenters here at AB.
“Some folks just can’t stand the notion that another person might not agree with them and that person could, in fact, be both quite sane and reasonably intelligent. For some reason, those poorly tolerant folks, seem especially fond of saying mean things.
While I’ve never really understood that behaviour, being much more prone to simply asking “why do you believe that?” instead of saying “You idiot!” (or moron as has appeared here) (as the former generally brings polite conversation while the later generally causes nothing good to happen); the fact is that folks continue to do it. Even when repeatedly asked to be more polite.
Go figure.”
“better my moral compass than yours.” (luke 18:9-14).
that, i would agree with.
ILSM, fascinating question. War can be started by multiple parties, and this one we DID NOT START. So, self preservation might be the most appropriate answer. Retaliation to stop/deter repeated attacks is another. As far as Iraq may be concerned, removal of a possible source of weaponry, AND, to stop a high level of crimes against humanity, as in Libya.
As always YMMV, especially when focused only on the “L” in war fighting.
Well, I didn’t ask for your understanding. I also didn’t say that the government should sprout from my gut. My gut will be glad with this outcome no matter what it means about me. He sleeps with the fishes; a hidden anger emerges, sweeps across my body, and into the soul of fishes.
Wars do not happen without “L”.
At least not winning ones.
ilsm,
Last comment as we get so off topic. The rotors stalled, due to the confined space and unpredictable landing winds, in the tricky part of the assault landing. Resulted in a hard landing and fatal damage to the blades (among other parts). Helicopter was a mort at this point. Life happens sometimes.
About half of all class A’s are pilot error if my memory serves – probably higher.
The helicopter performed 100%. You don’t blame the mechanic when the pilot flies it into a hill (how I lost my first friend in an aircraft accident).
So get off the high horse that it was all becuase Bell built crappy helicopters.
Islam will change
The fact is that we don’t really know squat about anythiing going on in Afghanistan or Pakistan. Our government operatives, elected and otherwise, have told enough lies and created sufficient deceptions as to allow significant doubt aboout any new news. Being a Democrat or a Republican is irrelevant in this regard. They have all participated in this process of bending and shaping the truth of so many matters. Why should we now take any report on its word? There is enough doubt floating through the air that our elected and appoiinted representatives exhale that any thing said is open to question without demonstrable evidence. In the current case of bin Laden that evidence is now at the bottom of some sea, or so we are told. That was probably the dumbest thing that could have been done. If they could drag his carcass to the ocean tneh certainly they could have out him on ice and brought home definitive proof of their sorry deed.
This isn’t the USSR. This isn’t the Korea of Kim Jong-il. This isn’t, or wasn’t, some Darth Vader Empire Strikes Back comic book scenario. This is the United States of America, freedom and justice for all and we treat our worst enemies in accordance with a sense of justice. Our Constitution states clearly that our government proves its accusations against its criminals and its enemies. This is not Tojo Japan nor the Fourth Reich. We disgrace our concept of justice in a worse way with each passing act of beligerence and/or revenge and retribution. We prove our points of law before an impartial arbiter. We’re moviing backwards fast and I’m astounded that Obama is leading us down this road to perdition.
Buff,
Check Av Week.
Yeah, lots of ORM issues.
Buff,
If you read the Aviation Week report, posted today about the crashed helicopter you should reconsider.As you know ORM is operational risk management, a side line of mine like reliability similar math and such.This crash may have been an issue of the stealthy stuff making the flight envelop too tight and not suit the aircraft for the job. Like the MV 22 cannot descend fast enough to try a hot LZ, this super stealth “black” helo may not be safe in a tight LZ for one reason or another mechanical or aerodynamic. Similar concerns bad maintenance, low reliability or bad suitability for the job all lead to mission loses. But hell just buy another unsuitable aircraft like this one!! The taxpayers’ got plenty of dough!
Good god, talk about the pot and the kettle both being black. Or is that encrusted with burnt on debris? I won’t go back over the many past comments made on the many past threads for the evidence, but suffice it to say that I can clearly recall your having denigrated something I have written with a dismissive and insulting remark. One need not use the terms idiot, moron or imbecile to insult a conversant. Taking a holier than thou position is equally insulting and you have often set your ideological rants on an undeserved higher plane.
buff
i have to laugh about “pilot error” a bit, because I knew a Nam pilot who got charged with pilot error when he got shot down. The desk soldiers decided he coulda saved it. No doubt they could have too, not being shot at at the time.
Anna Lee
glad you are so self satisfied that you can be rude about my humble opinion.
CoRev
it is your complete lack of self knowledge that exasperates me. but just to be cruel i’ll say again, having dealt with a lot of ordinary human beings, and a fair number of mental patients, and sadly, friends who grew old, and watching my own deterioration from inside, i fell i can fully understand yours, and i’d be sympathetic, and kind, if you weren’t so obnoxious to me, and rude.. and yes, wrong about things i think it is dangerous to be wrong about it a public space.
jeff
“no one is good but God alone”?
well people disagree about what scripture means, but i get a strong feeling when i read it that Jesus wants us to discover for ourselves what it means to “Love God…” Which I think means “testing all things” meaning you are your own moral compass whether you like it or not. but, hell, even the existentialists say that.
buff
i am wondering if they put a chip in your head that tells you “the boss is always right.”
because you are so SINCERE about it you expect us to believe it too, without question.
For Jack and Dale, let me repeat the first paragraph: “Some folks just can’t stand the notion that another person might not agree with them and that person could, in fact, be both quite sane and reasonably intelligent. For some reason, those poorly tolerant folks, seem especially fond of saying mean things….”
Dale, these freudian slips are telling: “…but just to be cruel i’ll say again,…” And this is what you said to Anna just seconds prior to your comment to me: “glad you are so self satisfied that you can be rude about my humble opinion.”
Your opinions are seldom humble, and too often wrong.
Don’t rank on cursed. He’s on a roll of lucidity enhanced by the politeness of his comments.
St Francis said,
‘It is better to seek to understand than to be understood.’
I wasn’t trying to be rude. I don’t know how you deduced that.
Anna
can’t say i “deduced” anything. i took “i didn’t ask for your understanding” as a rude brush off.
i haven’t lost anyone to terrorists, but my reaction to even minor “hurts” is often homicidal, so i have had to become particularly aware of the need for a restraining influence. the purpose of “government” even if it’s only a council of grandfathers and grandmothers is to provide some wisdom to restrain the emotions of the tribe that would lead only to more and worse hurt if given expression.
that doesn’t make the emotions wrong. it does tell us that when we have a government that encourages tribal rage and personal greed, we don’t have a wise government.
CoRev
no Freudian slip. I was being ironic… and self deprecating. and while it is useless to say it, your inability to see your own rudeness will i suppose make you always wonder why people are so mean to you.
i am never humble. and i am often wrong. but i check my work, and listen hard to criticism.the time may come… may have come, how would i know?… when my brain fails and i can no longer even suspect that i might be wrong even when my friends urge me to take up a new hobby..
thing is, i still do things where being wrong shows up in unmistakable fashion… so what i can say is that i make lots more mistakes than i used to, but i still seem able to recognize them, and fix them, at least when they are pointed out.