Alice Rivlin on Financial Reform and Deficits
by Linda Beale
Alice Rivlin spoke at Wayne State University’s FOCIS forum today on the economic crisis. Rivlin is an economist who served as the first director of the Congressional Budget Office (1975-83, when she was a critic of “reaganomics”), director under Clinton of the Office of Management and Budget (OMB) (deputy 1993-94, director 1994-96) and a governor and vice chair of the Federal Reserve (1996-1999). She is currently associated with the Brookings Institution. She is slated to play a role in the policy decisions made on important economic and tax matters: As of January 2010, she has assumed a role as co-chair (with Pete Domenici–who was an avid supporter of the Bush budget-busting tax cuts) of a “Debt Reduction Task Force” sponsored by the Bipartisan Policy Center”. See Bipartisan Policy Center, press release, Bipartisan Policy Center Launches Debt Reduction Task Force, Jan. 25, 2010. In addition, she was recently appointed by Obama to serve on the “National Commission on Fiscal Responsibility Commission” he established by executive order on Feb. 18, 2010, with co-chairs Erskine Bowles and Alan Simpson, with the charge of proposing ways to improve the long-term fiscal outlook and specifically to address the growth in “entitlement” spending. See the description by Peter Orszag, OMB director, on The White House Blog.
I can’t help that note that Pete Domenici– in spite of claiming to spend his career seeking “deficit reduction” (along with other things such as “a strong military,” which is a substantial reason for our spending-heavy budget), see Does John McCain get mad? Ask Pete Domenici, New Mexico Independent, Apr. 21, 2008 — was an avid supporter of the Bush tax cuts, with a cost of $1.6 trillion over the first decade, even after it was clear that the Bush budget was in negative territory. See, e.g., 2 Moderate Republicans Oppose Bush Tax Plan As Democrats Offer Their Own, NY Times, Feb. 16, 2001 (the two were Jeffords and Chafee, not Domenici); Votes Database on HR4297, Washington Post, May 11, 2006 (extending the capital gains rate reduction and the application of capital gains rates to dividends, against the argunent that it primarily benefited the wealthy and added to long-term deficit and debt problems).
Update:(Rdan here…formatting has been corrected)
Both the commission and task force start out already adopting strongly urged positions of the right (military spending off the menu, tax increases sufficient to address the real problems can’t be considered, and reduction in benefits under the entitlement programs is a given). Like most of the talk of “bipartisanship” under the Obama administration, this has meant ceding key foundational principles to the right before discussion even begins of where compromises are necessary. It is why there is no public option in the deficient health care bill and why there is talk under a supposedly progressive Democratic administration of enacting a regressive national sales tax or VAT instead of letting the Bush taxes revert as scheduled at the end of 2010 back to the more sensible paradigm before the measures were enacted.]
Now, Alice Rivlin is a smart and accomplished woman. I was curious what she would say about the economic crisis and what needs to be done to get out of it. I’ll summarize (very sketchily) what she had to say and point out where I think she has gone wrong in her focus and prescriptions.
She repeated the current media story about the cause of the financial crisis–irresponsible borrowers, overleveraged lenders, lax regulators.
“It’s no one cause” she said” –you can’t blame it on Fannie Mae or any of those current whipping posts”. “Everybody got burned.” [exact quote]
But
“we are coming out of the problem and, as various economists predicted, 2010 will be the year of the upswing.”
[paraphrase] She pointed out, of course, the fact that unemployment numbers look better, that Wall STreet is doing better. And she indicated her great optimism for Michigan’s economy, because of the new realism in leaders’ recognizing that the solution isn’t a return to the same old manufacturing base.
This last, which actually came towards the end and in response to a question asking for more specifics on her optimism for Michigan, was very vague and had the feel of puffery. She needed to say something good because this was a program on Michigan’s hope in Michigan and the media were watching.
Then she named the two central issues to ensuring growth (she didn’t say “broad-based growth” regretably)–financial reform and deficit reduction. And her solution to these?
On financial reform, she listed three key reforms:
1. Re-instituting better standards/controls on lending and establishment of anindepedent consumer protection agency
2. Instituting controls on leverage through the Fed
3. Finding a way to deal with the “too big to fail” problem so that big financial institutions can be disbanded when necessary without disrupting the entire financial system.On deficit reduction, she claimed that the “budget scolds” have to be listened too, and that health care and social security entitlements have to be reduced. “Taxes aren’t enough, and cannot be the whole solution.” [close to exact quote]
Now, this has always been the right’s response when a progressive (or thought-to-be-progressive) is in office, as a way to constrain to the max any actually beneficial programs targeted at ordinary Americans and to lay claim to “fiscal responsibility” by noting how they pointed out when so and so was in office that deficit reduction should take priority. Remember Greenspan–when Clinton was president, Greenspan scolded about deficit reduction; then when Bush proposed huge deficit-creating tax cuts, Greenspan suddenly found himself not worried about deficits. (Remember too that the Clinton presidency left a budget in surplus, and by the time of the 2001 Bush tax cuts, we were already back in negative territory. So that Greenspan’s logic (if anything other than ideology) was hard to fathom.
So it is discouraging to see someone with Rivlin’s experience pushing deficit reduction in ways eerily reminiscent of the right’s focus. (I don’t think high debt is a good situation to be in, by the way. But I don’t think talking about cutting health care benefits is the right approach –certainly not til you’ve reduced military spending and raised taxes.)
So what are the solutions she envisions?
To summarize…decreasing Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid benefits–in the form of small changes now that will take effect and lead to significant reductions later, such as raising the retirement age and indexing for longevity for Social Security or working to ensure that we just “pay for the good stuff” through Medicare/Medicaid increasing taxes–in the form of a national sales tax or VAT which “will be pro growth” and will require the federal government to share some of the revenues with the states.
So what didn’t I like about this?
1. Undue Influence of Financial Institutions
On the causes of the crisis, her account glosses over the deeply embedded role of financial institutions in setting the laws and standards for their own accountability, from the fact that financial institutions were in bed with the ratings agencies, to the pervasive influence of the biggest banks (and especially Goldman Sachs through placement of its alumns in key positions) over Congress and over its own regulators, and the resultingly frustratingly toothless controls that those alumns put on the use of federal money to bail out the banks. Until that reality is acknowledged and dealt with transparently, there will be no workable long-term solution.
2. Lack of focused attention on the needs of ordinary Americans related to the crisis
While Rivlin acknowledges that the problems exist in Wall Street and in the regulators, there is, as with so many trained economists, almost no discussion of the impact of the crisis on ordinary Americans and the kinds of remedies that directly address their needs. Rivlin did acknowledge the high rate of unemployment, but primarily in emphasizing her view that the economic stimulus may have lessened to 10% the peak unemployment rate that could otherwise have been at 12%.
This vastly undervalues the harm done to ordinary society
by this crisis. The pockets of extraordinarily high unemployment create
devastating societal harms that returns to average levels don’t cure.
And we could do much more. One step, early on (and even now), would have a direct, palpable impact on the lives of the ordinary Americans who have been targeted by predatory Wall Street practices and in most cases who have worked hard but lost almost everything. That’s the change of the bankruptcy laws to permit modification of home loans in bankruptcy. The Obama administration (and of course the Bush administration before it) has not taken the kind of action it could to press for these changes. Why? Because that change would force banks to acknowledge losses that they can currently hide with “level 3” mark-to-market valuations and admit deeper losses than they want to acknowledge. This is an ostrich-hiding-its-head-in-the-sand solution that, like the way the TARP program has been administered, looks to the banks and makes them whole through socialization of losses while letting ordinary Americans continue to suffer through loss of their homes as well as their jobs. Many of those who are losing their homes were tconsidered prey by predatory mortgage brokers and predatory investment bank bond traders. There is no rational logic in not pushing through a program that allows modification of home loans for primary residences in bankruptcy. The picayune programs for interest rate reductions (mostly temporary) that have been the primary effort in this regard so far are laughable. The recently announced new effort by the Obama Adminstration doesn’t
sound much better. A change to the bankruptcy laws is necessary.
3. Lack of any sense of the significance of creating laws that hold the guilty culpable
It is sad that policy makers like Rivlin never even mention the lack of
accountability in a system that, sense the Central Bank of Denver case, has let accountants, brokers, and lawyers off the hook when they design financial instruments for their own benefit that rip off their customers and/or rip off regulatory and tax authorities, keep information as hidden as possible through complex derivatives, and rely on “quants” to develop computer models to tell them how to make money without regard to the impact of their schemes on society or on individuals. Wall STreet bond traders, their lawyers, the ratings agencies, accountants and the various hedge funds that exist below any accountability radar screen bear the lion’s share of the blame for the financial crisis, and most of them are back to making millions without a qualm. Their predatory culture has to be dealt with, in order to protect all of us from a recurrence of this in the future.
Ultimately, the people who were treated as prey and got pushed into subprime mortgages that they couldn’t afford should be able to sue the broker, the traders, the rating agencies, and the lawyers that made that possible, in class-action lawsuits. (I know–the rating agencies convinced the courts that the rating that they are paid to provide and that are required for various legal purposes are “just opinions” and therefore
protected by the First Amendment. That’s seems like more of the corporatist agenda that lets corporations have all the benefits of being persons but none of the liability. Some way around it needs to be developed.)
4. Regulatory tightening for transparency and discouragement of risk-taking is essential.
1. Transparency is needed, but that won’t be achieved without SEC-like disclosure requirements on all financial innovations and FASB accounting rules that
minimize the amount of manipulation possible.
2. The changes that Congress forced in mark-to-market accounting (letting institutions decide to move to “level 3” mark-to-model valuations when there is a “market disruption” ) appear harmful, not beneficial. Mark-to-model needs to be revised drastically to require complete openness about individual positions being marked to model (not just aggregate information) and complete transparency or even standardization of the models used. [See my tome on mark-to-market for tax on SSRN and the problems of manipulating income or losses to suit the financial statement needs or tax needs of the institutions]
3. Financial innovations generally need to be discouraged, not encouraged–perhapsthrough a combination of patent law changes (proprietary financial institution models should not be patent-eligible in the first place), regulatory hurdles, and new regulatory regimes.
5. Starting out with a deficit concern that is set forth as justifying reduction in programs for the common welfare is problematic.
No we want quality health care for all? Then are there ways to achieve that to be considered? The answer is yes and yes. This country never really considered single-payer health care, the successful model in the developed world most likely because of the power of the big insurers and the unwillingness of those like Rivlin operating under the centrist economic legacy of Clinton (Rubin, Rivlin, Summers, etc.) to put people first and make the arguments needed to help Americans understand that democratic capitalism cannot be sustained under the corporatist empire to which we are so rapidly moving.
By setting the charge of his “commission” to be reducing entitlements, Obama has regretably fallen into the pit dug by the rights efforts to treat programs that provide benefits for the poor or ordinary Americans as worrisome items while letting the programs for the Big Banks and other similar corporate welfare continue unabated.
6. Supporting a national sales tax or VAT as the tax solution is similarly problematic
Those tax systems are highly regressive, which is the wrong direction for us to move after the Bush tax cuts led to a less progressive system. We have various better alternatives, including at least the following:
a. eliminating the capital gains preference
b. increasing the progressivity of the income tax through both base broadening (eliminating or reducing the provisions that primarily provide redistribution upwards to the wealthy because they are the only ones able to take advantage of them, such as the charitable contribution for value of stock with low basis) and rate increases (adding more finely tuned rate brackets, so that those with millions are taxed higher than those with half a million and those with billions are taxed considerably higher than those with millions)
c. letting the Bush tax cuts lapse as they are scheduled to do by law as enacted by the GOP-dominated Congress that passed them
d. instituting a financial institution leverage tax that charges the financial institutions for the cost-of-funding advantage they receive due to the implicit federal guarantee
e. reinstituting the estate tax at a vigorously progressive rate (which will tax individuals when they are at a point where they don’t feel it and will help to slow the development of oligarchy)
Not entirely clear about what the grey boxes are meant to be. Are they quotes, as would conventioally be the case, or your (LB’s) views? Seem to mix in a bit of Rivlin with whatever they are, which is one of the things that make them look like quotes brought in from elsewhere.
Rivlin’s comments on Michigan are similar in nature to those from Michigan’s own economist and some univresity economists from the region. Commonly, the point they make is that Michigan has a high-volatillity economy, and that rebounds tend to be dramatic as a result. It isn’t policy or evolution toward a whatever the next big thing may be that generates sharp rebounds. It’s all that unused capacity in inventory-sensitive industries. Could be different this time, of course.
Rivlin has always been a deficit hawk. She has always been political in her public pronouncements. She has at times been fairly brave about saying what needs to be said, avoiding the trap of “serious person” thinking. Alas, she seems to be “serious” now, as you suggest.
Funny thing, Rand Corp is out with a study saying the voluntary age of retirement is going to keep rising longer than is suggested in official projections, extending the life of the positive balance in the Social Security Trust Fund. Rand Corp, mind you:
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2010-04/rc-dra040710.php
Linda
i don’t disagree with anything you said here, but I feel like I must have been wasting my breath all these years about Social Security,
Social Security has nothing to do with the deficit. Never will. If it needs more money because the next generation will live longer than the last it can get it with a payroll tax increase that amounts to an extra 20 cents per week each year. And this is money paid by the people who will get it back when they retire.
Raising the retirement age would be cruel and is stupid. We don’t know what the health of those people will be like, what “living longer” will mean… or who will do it. Poor people will not be living as much longer as rich people. Retirement isn’t the same as life extending terminal care, And who knows if there will be jobs for all those old people.
All of your objectios to Rivlin are “economic.” But she is proposing a crime. A crime with no economic justification even. Simply “the right’s” long term… very long term… program to hurt the poor, whom they have always hated.
My apolgies to readers. Linda’s post at ataxingmatter is clear, but blogspot uses a different set of tools. I will try to fix.
This looks like either a loss of courage or a loss of clarity on Rivlin’s part. I dont’ know how long she has favored shifting Social Security to a balance less favorable to beneficiaries – she was a fully growed-up economist back in 1983, so may be on record on that shfit – but I have the impression she has favored a less generous system for some time.
I’d make two related points about the 1983 deal and proposals for something similar today. One is that a less generous Social Security system means a higher level of forced savings. Rivlin is one of those people who has long identified the US current account deficit as a risk to US economic health. Reducing the benefit and delaying the time that workers can draw on their retirement benefit is a form of forced savings. The other point is that, if we erase the barriers between various federal budgets – that is to say, if we accept that the “self-funding” justifications for the 1983 deal was a lie – then the forced savings engendered by the 1983 deal and by any new deal is swept away. If the general fund is allowed to borrow from the Social Security Trust and never pay the borrrowing back, there is no net forced savings. All that happens is that we finance the deficit through increased taxes on the middle-class. Forced saving by the middle class doesn’t amount to an overall rise in the US savings rate, but simply a way of enriching the rich through tax cuts.
What we have is a fiscal moral hazard that spills over into international balances. If the General Fund is required to repay the Trust Fund, no moral hazard, and no easy way to pay for an unbalanced General Fund. That’s true forced savings, though it takes a demonstration of resolve to make it work. If the General Fund is excused from repaying the Trust Fund, there is a political pay-off to cutting taxes on the rich and shifting the burden for saving to the middle class – moral hazard.
Rivlin may be thinking about forced saving as a tool to foster greater international balance, but she ends up facilitating morally hazardous fiscal policy.
Social security contributions are forced savings. In view of the fact that returns on other savings are presently unimpressive, it seems that Rivlin has no problem with shorting ordinary people both in SS benefits and savings interest. What are ordinary people supposed to do to escape this fate? One thing they can do is pick rich parents. If that doesn’t seem practical, I am not seeing why I should listen to her.
Yep, Rivlin and people like her want the government to spend money on those projects and programs beneficial to the financial and defense industries. Meanwhile, they cheerfully plan to further impoverish middle class and working people through higher taxes and lower lifetime SS benefits. Why should I listen to these people? What’s wrong with coming up with an industrial policy aimed at producing jobs to replace those lost during the past 15 or so years? Hmmm? I am really disinclined to let myself be ripped off–again.
From the wapo: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/04/07/AR2010040703116.html?hpid=topnews
Bernanke did not endorse any particular approach to reducing the deficit. But he laid out the “difficult choices.”
“To avoid large and ultimately unsustainable budget deficits, the nation will ultimately have to choose among higher taxes, modifications to entitlement programs such as Social Security and Medicare, less spending on everything else from education to defense, or some combination of the above,” he said.
His remarks highlighted the difficulties posed by funding these entitlement programs over the long term. With the population aging and medical costs rising faster than inflation, Medicare is set to become a major drain on the federal budget in the coming decades, though the recently passed health-care bill has delayed the date when the program will begin to require big infusions of cash.
Social Security is already draining resources from the broader federal budget, as spending on benefits has risen above this year’s Social Security tax collections. While that gap is expected to be fleeting, the program, the largest single item in the federal budget, is projected to require sustained support within the next 10 years.
kharris
re the Rand Corp. precisely. if the retirement age “needs” to be raised, it will take care of itself, without forcing sick, old, poor people, to keep working in factories and on their knees.
Not sure where I see the advantage to “forcing savings” by forcing people to work longer into old age.
raising the payroll tax a tiny amount increases “savings” the way the term is understood by the people who have traditionally “saved” a little of their money to provide for their future expenses.
also not at all sure i understand what “savings” has to do with any economic benefit. we already have more money sloshing around than “investments” can absorb.
another goddam lie from Bernanke.
Social Security is not “draining resources from the broader Federal Budget”. it is drawing on its own savings which it LENT to the Congress. Paying back money you borrow may drain your resources. But not paying it back is generally considered theft.
Bernanke told the Congress to steal the money from Social Security “because that’s where the money is.”
The “higher taxes” that might be required would be a raise in the Social SEcuriyt tax of about a dollar and twenty cents per week over the next two years, and another 80 cents per week per year starting in 2026, running for ten years and then slowing down so that by 2085 the average raise in the tax would have been 20 cents per week per year while wages are going up ten dollars per week per year. and the money is not a “tax” in the normal sense of the word tax. it is just people paying in advance for their own retirement.
taking the burden off “the broader federal budget” which is otherwise going to have to pay welfare to people who can’t work and no longer have the “forced savings” that is Social Security.
Coberly has a point. You pay now or pay later as a general rule in government. If you don’t pay for defense spending now, you are going to pay more interest on the debt thus created later. And, you are going to pay out more Unemployment benefits and other public assistance benefits how in the absence of more jobs. These people want to “keep taxes low” for everyone but the middle class. Wish they’d listen to themselves. Really bad ideas coming from supposedly smart people.
Forced savings, if done in such a way that they raise the national savings rate, reduce the current account deficit. One can argue that the current account deficit doesn’t need reducing, but Rivlin’s view is that it does. My point, which I’m pretty sure was not clearly made, was that delaying retirement in particular means that we would make more stuff. Retirees mostly go out of the business of making stuff, so they are pure consumers. By imposing higher taxes, you get a lower rate of consumption, all else equal, but not higher production. The fastest way to reduce the current account deficit is to consume less on an absolute basis, and to produce more. Again, I am making an argument that I think might be in the back of Rivlin’s head.
If reducing our international imbalance is part of what Rivlin has in mind, she will fail in that goal over a considerable period if the forced savings through Social Security are all absorbed through a General Fund deficit. That is what happened since 1983. If the General Fund is not compelled to repay the Social Security Trust Fund, then “considerble period” isn’t the half of it. Tax cutters will be tempted to play another round, to shift the balance of the Social Security Trust Fund to large surplus as far as the eye can see, in order to finance the General Fund, thereby allowing more tax cuts, or at least never repaying the debt through tax hikes.
I don’t like the distributional implications of that policy, but others obviously do. However, getting back to what I think may be in the back of Rivlin’s head, allowing forced savings through Social Security to tempt tax cutters – creating a morally hazardous pattern of tax and benefit changes – would mean that there would be no shift in international balances as a result of jiggering Social Security again. The distributional effect would supplant the effect on international balances, and perhaps even make international balances worse for a time.
Sorry, but objectively, any payment from Treasury to Social Security “drains resources”. It isn’t a lie. As has been pointed out elsewhere, Treasury pays interest to everybody who buys Treasury debt, so all holders of such debt “drain resources”. That’s how the system works, so doing so is not a bad thing. The choice of words may be an interesting target of deconstruction (the real thing, not any old kind of analysis that one decides to call “deconstruction”), but the point about draining resources is objectively true.
by Bruce Webb (and Dan I still don’t know why JS-Kit won’t let me be me here)
Alice Rivlin is a member of the Brookings-Heritage Fiscal Seminar
http://www.brookings.edu/opinions/2009/0219_fiscal_responsiblity_sawhill.aspx
and a signatory to its document “Taking Back Our Fiscal Future”
She is also a member of the Peterson-Pew Commission on Budget Reform
http://budgetreform.org/ Which put out a similar document entitled “Red Ink Rising”
The Peterson-Pew Commission is sponsored by the Pew Trusts, the Peter G Peterson Foundation, and the Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget, http://crfb.org/ whose President Maya MacGuineas also serves as Commission President (Peterson is on the board and a major funder of crfb)
All of these organizations: Brookings-Heritage, Peterson-Pew, the PGP Foundation, and CRFB share overlapping leadership and authorship of their reports which includes such folk as Stuart Butler of Heritage and author of my much cited Butler and Germanis “Social Security: the “Leninist” Strategy (Cato Journal Fall 1983) and Ms MacGuineas herself, co-author of equally much cited “Liebman-MacGuineas-Samwick Non-Partisan Social Security Reform Plan” (Dec 2005)
However grown-up an economist Alice Rivlin was in the past she is at this point essentially bound at the hip to Peter G Peterson and David Walker as part of the ‘Entitlements Crisis’ jihad. Meaning that for me at least she represents a hostile witness thoroughly committed to pushing the PGP line.
BTW one of PGP’s oldest tricks is playing the “Even—” card, as is “Even liberal leaning Brookings Institution says—” or “Even former Clinton Budget Director X says—-” to support his crusade against Social Security. “Even—” ranks right up there with “Non-partisan” “Bi-partisan” and “Fiscal responsibility” as signs of the presence of PGP or his minions. Other marks of the Peast are “Former Comptroller General” or as here “Former CBO and OMB Director”, all of whom seem firmly tucked in Pete G Peterson’s vest pocket.
As they say “Even paranoids have real enemies” and while I might not put Rivlin into that camp exactly, neither would I accept anything she puts forth at face value, she clearly is working off a set agenda. For all practical purposes she is working for Peterson, the founder of fund of hedge funds the Blackstone Group, a man who has made literal billions over the last couple of decades off of Wall Street shenanigans, and who to say the least will not concede that the answer to anything is more transparency and regulation.
So nothing in Linda’s piece is surprising to me, I would have been shocked had Rivlin taken any different line.
kharris
thanks. it helps to have a better idea what is in the back of their heads. but there is another moral hazard. they are “balancing the books” … an intellectual abstraction… by forced labor.
we used to have a word for that.
“sustained support” = “payment of a portion of accrued interest on $2.5 trillion in assets backed by Full Faith and Credit”
You expect this kind of crap from the nutjobs at NRO, but to have the head of the Federal Reserve dismissing the reality of the Special Treasuries in the Trust Funds in this way is simply shocking. This man is in some ways the most powerful person on the planet, he can snap his fingers and create hundreds of billions of the worlds most recognized reserve currency. Because you don’t have to be an Austrian/Randite/Paulite loon to understand that your Federal Reserve Note, well really is just a ‘fiat currency’ and pretty much so are Regular Treasuries and Special Treasuries, Bernanke at the Fed and Geigtner at Treasury can respectively push buttons and make paper bills and notes accepted for value received by Oil Shieks and Narco Lords basically out of thin air. For either Ben or Tim to even hint that Full Faith and Credit is just some kind of joke is so deeply irresponsible that you hardly know what to say.
and where is this extra production going to come from?
they have more than ten percent of the people out of the workforce now. so they are going to get more production by forcing the ones who can find a job to work until they are too old to stand up?
kharris
teling lies that are “objectively true” is the fine art of the really good liars.
if draining resources is what paying bond holders is, then maybe they need to stop selling bonds.
used to be we understood that buying bonds was “investment” in creating new resources.
though i suppose if you can con the ignorant into buying bonds you have no intention of paying off, why that’s a win win for you isn’t it?
I can’t help thinking there could be a little micro-economics problem with all this. I hope all the old people will take it upon themselves to inform their employers that the “mandatory retirement age” has been raised to 69, but jeez, are we sure that will really work?
But just wait until the unwashed masses ever learn that there is a surplus from a clearly defined source (payroll tax), and the surplus is used to fund the General Fund, and SS is the scapegoat for a huge mismatch between all spending and all taxes, and is being reformed so that it will continue to run a surplus so it can still fund the General Fund and ever escalating federal deficits.
What if we can’t age quickly enough to keep up with the growth in the federal deficit? Has anyone thought of that?
Then maybe the middle class will finally realize they are in a 40% marginal tax bracket, counting the company paid half of payroll tax.
Where is the budget analysis? It’s not in this main post. It hasn’t been demonstrated in many main posts over a number of years. Main posters and commenters routinely single out their pet programs or particular interests and chat away as if that is all that is involved. That’s not budget analysis of the overall problem facing the U.S. Government.
The commission may very well start with the following CBO analysis, which clearly identifies the problem with deficit spending in the outyears, assuming among other considerations and data sources that the deficits not reflected in the following short term chart will be substantially larger than those shown. And that is the case.
The usual AB blog banter and often repeated BS have nothing to do with a thorough analysis of Federal budget projections. Either you study the President’s budget and CBO analysis or you fall back on weak amateur defensive positions that some have always relied upon. There has been very little discussion of the latest Federal budget on this blog, let alone a thorough effort.
The commission isn’t going to sit around and recommend nothing be done. More importantly, they’re not going to waste time listening to people who have no clue about the scope of the overall budget deficit problems facing the U.S. Government. They have no reason to listen to people too lazy to study the Federal budget or CBO’s analysis.
This is CBO’s reality check:
Analysis of the President’s 2011 Budget
http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/112xx/doc11231/index.cfm
.
“we” are not going to be “making more stuff” by forcing the elderly to keep working. the chinese and the indians and the forced labor in the Marianas are going to be making more stuff.
We are going to be having grannies competing with “young workers” for min wage jobs. Hoping that their “stability” will outweigh their relative lack of “productivity.” In either case it will tend to keep wages down. And that can’t be bad for people in Rivlin’s class.
And if you have a seventy year old boss, you might ask yourself just how productive HE is.
Didn’t mean to post three times. I kept getting a “did not post error, try again” message, so I did.
Bruce,
Get the facts straight, then complain. Read what Bernanke actually stated during his speech.
EXCERPT:
“What about the longer term? The economist John Maynard Keynes said that in the long run, we are all dead.5 If he were around today he might say that, in the long run, we are all on Social Security and Medicare. That brings me to two interrelated economic challenges our nation faces: meeting the economic needs of an aging population and regaining fiscal sustainability. The U.S. population will change significantly in coming decades with the combined effect of the decline in fertility rates following the baby boom and increasing longevity. As our population ages, the ratio of working-age Americans to older Americans will fall, which could hold back the long-run prospects for living standards in our country. The aging of the population also will have a major impact on the federal budget, most dramatically on the Social Security and Medicare programs, particularly if the cost of health care continues to rise at its historical rate. Thus, we must begin now to prepare for this coming demographic transition.6“
“The economist Herb Stein once famously said, “If something cannot go on forever, it will stop.”7 That adage certainly applies to our nation’s fiscal situation. Inevitably, addressing the fiscal challenges posed by an aging population will require a willingness to make difficult choices. The arithmetic is, unfortunately, quite clear. To avoid large and unsustainable budget deficits, the nation will ultimately have to choose among higher taxes, modifications to entitlement programs such as Social Security and Medicare, less spending on everything else from education to defense, or some combination of the above. These choices are difficult, and it always seems easier to put them off–until the day they cannot be put off any more. But unless we as a nation demonstrate a strong commitment to fiscal responsibility, in the longer run we will have neither financial stability nor healthy economic growth.”
“Today the economy continues to operate well below its potential, which implies that a sharp near-term reduction in our fiscal deficit is probably neither practical nor advisable. However, nothing prevents us from beginning now to develop a credible plan for meeting our long-run fiscal challenges. Indeed, a credible plan that demonstrated a commitment to achieving long-run fiscal sustainability could lead to lower interest rates and more rapid growth in the near term.”
“Our economic challenges, both near term and longer term, are daunting indeed. Nonetheless, I remain optimistic that they can be met. History has demonstrated time and again the inherent resilience and recuperative powers of the American economy. Our country’s competitive, market-based system, its flexible capital and labor markets, its tradition of entrepreneurship, and its knack for innovation have ensured that the nation’s economy has surmounted difficult challenges in the past. I do not doubt that we can do so once again.”
http://www.federalreserve.gov/newsevents/speech/20100407a.htm
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There are a good many predictions of labor shortage on the books. Pushing back retirement age in the face of labor shortage would mean producing more stuff. In any other circumstance, there would be competition for jobs between those with more skills and better work habits on the one hand, those with more energy, stronger backs and more recent formal education on the other. Employers would have a wider range of choices – hurray for employers. No matter how scarce (or not) labor might be, a bigger supply of labor would hold wages down from where they’d be with scarcer labor.
I think, though, that we want to avoid stereotypes regarding the capacities of older workers. The Rand study I mentioned earlier makes pretty clear that better health to an older age and limited physical challengers are part of what will make workers want to stay in the workforce into later life. Money is another factor, though. Rand’s description suggests intellectually active jobs, and there are just an awful lot of clever people in their late 60s and early 70s. Of course, Rivlin isn’t aiming at Rand’s happy older workers in suggesting a later retirment date. She means every able-bodied person who wants to retire wth a full Social Security benefit.
I’m confused how you can be for budget deficit but then push healthcare. The only way to truly get down the deficit is to reduce the gov’t. This means getting them out of the private sector. However, instead of this common sense approach your arguments are all for getting gov’t deeper into the private sector. Setting up regulations to stop “to big to fail” companies and having public options in health care are two more expenses. Higher taxes only suppress the economy. The wealthy are already sick of this administration and the higher the taxes increase here, the higher the likelihood of big business and wealthy individuals leaving the country.
And making credible oppostion requires keeping your head about you and telling the objective truth. Calling Bernanke a liar when he isn’t lying is going to lead to a “boy crying wolf” problem pretty quickly. Do you still listen to people who claim Kugman is lying about economics or has screwed up his math? Bernanke is casting his argument in perjorative terms. He is not lying. To maintain credibility, we can point out that he is spinning, but calling him a liar would make us liars.
For a number of years now, MG has used this same trick. Claim that anybody who doesn’t work from background material he links to is not aware of the real facts, not qualified to have an opinion, and so forth. The CBO document is one of a series of CBO budget assessments, which run alongside a series of OMB budget assessments, each of which has been wrong about the current year budget balance by sometimes more than $100 bln. These are not tablets brought down from the mountaintop.
I would also point out that MG stoops to crap like “people who have no clue about the scope of the overall budget deficit problems” and “people too lazy to study the Federal budget or CBO’s analysis” on absolutely no evidence. The fact that AB writers have not linked today to documents that link-obsessed MG insists on does not represent evidence of ignorance or laziness. In fact, as arguments go, MG’s own claims in this case seem both ignorant and lazy.
And of course, the fact that AB writers don’t cover the same ground in any given post, or in all their posts taken together, as do the CBO and OMB documents might have something to do with the fact that those two organizations have substantial budgets and a mandate to write those documents, whereas the contributors here mostly have day jobs. Contributors here nevertheless clearly often do spend a good bit of time with the source material, and often provide useful insights and valuable critiques of the official stuff. One hopes for an informed electorate, and here that hope gets a bit of gratification.
So, while the “shorter MG” seems to be “shut up unless I tell you you can talk”, I appreciate many of the efforts here. Not all, as I’m sure contributors are aware, but many. Please ignore MG’s bullying and go about yer business.
Today, 2:19:24 PM – Flag – Like – Reply – Delete – Edit – Moderate
Matt,
It’s just not true that reduced spending is the only way to reduce the deficit. The US does not have a particularly large tax take, relative to the size of the economy. It was not inevitable that the structural balance turn badly toward deficit. It too Bush cutting taxes, going to war and creating Medicare Part D without a funding mechanism. Government can operate on a pay-as-you-go basis, as it had just started doing before Bush arrived in office. The health care plan just passed, in contrast to Medicare Part D, does include a funding mechanism. I realize that lots of people like to argue that the budget figures associated wtih the package are fictional, but they don’t really know that to be true. One of the commonplace bits of wisdom about major changes in fiscal policy is that we don’t know at all clearly how they will break. Health scepticism about DC math makes sense, but it is entirely possible that the new health care thingie will turn out to be self funding.
As to regulations to stop too-big-to-fail financial firms, how do you figure that costs us money? Seems to me, it is making use of the too-big-to-fail extortion threat that costs us money.
And it is utterly untrue that taxes “only suppress the economy”. Look at societies in which tax revenues are far below those of the US as a share of GDP, and you will notice that they are mostly wretchedly poor. Taxes pay for civil society, and civil society plays a large role in making us rich.
And oh, by the way, the wealthest states tend to vote for Democrats, and Obama’s poll numbers are no worse than Reagan at this point, better than those for Bush. Got any evidence that the wealthy, as a class, are down on Obama?
Everything you offered is pretty much Glenn Beck on a platter. Not very convincing.
Seems really odd that people seem to be thinking that Alice Rivlin is somehow “of the Right” when every major job she’s had was an appointment by Democratic presidents or Congress. From LBJ to the CBO in the 70’s to OMB under Clinton and Fed Governor under Clinton. She’s a Democrat and always has been, and the reason she says that the middle class entitlement programs are unsustainable is because they are unsustainable.
My reply to MGs referred to graph is long and needs more than one post. Bear with me, please. I found some interesting information on the Social Security Administration’s site.
The chart that MG refers us to doesn’t make it clear whether the budget being described is the UNIFIED budget, (that’s the make believe there’s no legislatively mandated seperate funding mechanism budget) or the real budget which excludes off-budget items which are not paid for out of general taxes. I suspect that that chart is the make believe we have a unified budget chart. Let’s take a look at the history of the on-budget/off-budget debate.
From the Social Security Administration direct to you:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:qv5pP4ULbtgJ:www.ssa.gov/history/BudgetTreatment.html+unified+budget&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
Excuse the funny colors. It made it easier to find the information.
In early 1968 President Lyndon Johnson made a change in the budget presentation by including Social Security and all other trust funds in a”unified budget.” This is likewise sometimes described by saying that Social Security was placed “on-budget.”
This 1968 change grew out of the recommendations of a presidential commission appointed by President Johnson in 1967, and known as the President’s Commission on Budget Concepts. The concern of this Commission was not specifically with the Social Security Trust Funds, but rather it was an effort to rationalize what the Commission viewed as a confusing budget presentation. At that time, the federal budget consisted of three separate and inconsistent sets of measures, and often budget debates became bogged-down in arguments over which of the three to use. As an illustration of the problem, the projected fiscal 1968 budget was either in deficit by $2.1 billion, $4.3 billion, or $8.1 billion, depending upon which measure one chose to use. Consequently, the Commission’s central recommendation was for a single, unified, measure of the federal budget–a measure in which every function and activity of government was added together to assess the government’s fiscal position.
This change took effect for the first time in the President’s budget proposal for fiscal year 1969, which President Johnson presented to Congress in January 1968. This change in accounting practices did not initially put the President’s budget proposal into surplus–it was still projecting an $8 billion deficit. However, it is clear that the budget deficit would have been somewhat larger without this change (it is difficult to say how much larger because this change was mixed-in with the other legislative, budgetary and fiscal policies the President was urging Congress to adopt). In early 1969–just five days before leaving office–President Johnson sent his 1970 budget message to Congress, also using the revised accounting procedures. At this point, a year later than his initial estimate, he was projecting the budget for 1969 to be in a net balance of $2.4 billion. (The fiscal year 1969 began on January 1, 1969, even though the President had released his FY 1969 budget almost a year earlier.)
The FY 1969 budget would not be implemented by President Johnson; it would instead be presided over by President Nixon, who took office on January 20,1969. This was 20 days into the 1969 fiscal year. When President Nixon took office, he too adopted the unified budget approach, and it was used by all Presidents thereafter until 1986.
One way to estimate the immediate impact of this accounting change is to look at the government’s actual expenditures for FY 1969. Under the current unified budget rules, the government reported a surplus of $3.2 billion for FY 1969. Removing the “off-budget” items from the calculation would result in a net deficit of $507 million.
Source: Historical Tables: Budget of the U.S. Government, Fiscal Year 2006, Table 1.1, pg. 22
So, by 1986, Social Security was technically off-budget, but it was still being used in the deficit calculations. Absent other legislative change, this would have continued until 1993. However, in the Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act (OBRA) of 1990 the law was changed to stop the use of the Trust Funds for any function in the unified budget, including calculations of the deficit. One sub-part of OBRA 1990 was called the Budget Enforcement Act (BEA), and it was this sub-part that specified this change in the law.
The BEA budget treatment of Social Security basically remains the law to the present day. Specifically, present law mandates that the two Social Security Trust Funds, and the operations of the Postal Service, are formally considered to be “off-budget” and no longer part of the unified federal budget. (The Medicare Trust Funds, by contrast, are once again part of the unified budget.) So where matters stand presently is that the transactions to the Social Security Trust Funds and the operations of the Postal Service are “off-budget” and everything else is “on-budget.”
However, those involved in budget matters often produce two sets of numbers, one without Social Security included in the budget totals and one with Social Security included. Thus, Social Security is still frequently treated as though it were part of the unified federal budget even though, technically, it no longer is.
So get that. It is a technicality,” meaning there is no legislative basis for a unified budget. In fact it is legislatively inappropriate to consider the budget unified. Why let that stop our elected representatives or the sychophants, like Rivlin, from making things up>? In effect they want us to support a) a bloated military budget, b) two absurd wars in the middle-east and c) big tax advantages for the One Percent Club. Sychophant is the word for such scum.
Matt B.
Your entire post is an excellent example of right wing, corporatist ideology that has no basis in fact. Each point you are trying to make has been repeatedly critiqued here and else where. Going over each of your complaints would be llittle more than reinventing the wheel. What part of the government is “in the private sector?” Is that the part that just refused to provide reasonable health insurance to the public via a public option? Is that the part that can’t can’t get itself to legislate meaningful regulatory safe guards related to our financial system? What higher taxes have been instituted by the current administration? The one certain thing is that only the middle classes will be expected to suffer any increase in their taxation. Or do you think that the wealthy will be put off by a national sales tax in order to protect their current favored taxation status.
By the way Matt B., in case you haven’t yet noticed big business left the country high and dry during the past several decades. Where do you suppose all those jobs went? And those wealthy people your so concerned about have residences inside and outside of the country. They live global.
Hate to keep talking about social security all the time, but if people keep blaming our budget problems on “unsustainable middle class entitlements”, then I feel I must.
So we know medicare is the really bad guy. Unfunded Medicare Part D is a big part of the reason why. And it was a handout to Big Drug as much as it was to senior citizens. The ROW with some form of national health has the government negotiate down drug prices to half what anyone in the US pays. Not here, it is an “entitlement”.
On to social security. In 1983 they formed a commission chaired by Greenspan to assess the long term viability of the program because there was mounting evidence we were using more than our biblical allottment of 3 score and 10 years on this planet. They also wanted to account for an aging demographic. Our payroll taxes were increased by what they thought was necessary.
Then along the way they decided it was cool for Congress to spend the sizable surplus, and put “non-marketable treasuries” in the trust fund. These are not real Treasuries sold by the treasury and carry a fixed interest rate of 2%. Then on a completely different subject, they indexed the SS payments to inflation.
Now Bozo the Clown would know that is unsustainable, and many countries have sovereign wealth funds so that social security funds are invested competitively and actually grow to become sovereign wealth.
So now the weasels want to make it sound like the middle class did something wrong, is greedy and unreasonable in our expectations for entitlements (which we paid for under duress and threat of jailtime), and we should have never listened to those economists telling us to spend all our money because that’s good for the economy and we will get social security and medicare later.
But the truth is Bozo the Clown could have done a far better job managing our resources.
MG corporatists like Bernanke always point out that the only way to cut deficits is to raise taxes, cut discetionary/military spending or slash entitlements–and then immediately dismiss the ability to do the former two.
I read Bernanke’s statement and concluded “Same shit, different day”.
Yout constant need to play King of the Link Mountain just displays a deep insecurity manifested in a need to tell others to “get the facts”. Oddly the facts you point to are rarely organized into an actual reasoned argument, just wrapped in the implication that you actually analyzed their contents in advance rather than scrambling to assemble links after the fact.
The old saying “all blow and no go” comes too often to mind.
kharris
far be it from me to stereotype older workers. but we aren’t talking about forty to fifty year olds here. we are talking about 70 year olds, of the class of workers who are poor, shorter lived, more likely to be sick, and with jobs that do not reward “experience.”
don’t try to paint this as something benign of “obvious.” this is a cruel attack on the poor and elderly. people who would like to retire at a reasonable age AND PAY FOR IT THEMSELVES. what the hell is the point of “more stuff” when what people want is a chance to LIVE THEIR LIVES even if it means “less stuff.”
MG given that you never give ANY analysis, I have to laugh here.
kharris
Bernanke is lying. “objective truth” is the technique of the father of lies. always has been.
i am sorry you don’t understand that. you are not alone. this boy is crying wolf because there is a real wolf in the fold.
DLC/Rubinista/Third Way/New Democrats fill a space that by world standards is barely centrist. That they largely managed to grab institutional control of the Democratic Party 20 years ago doesn’t mean that card carrying members like Rivlin are not occupying an anti-New Deal center-right ideological space.
MG
he is lying. the objective truth is that social security has nothing to do with the deficits. it is just people paying in advance for their own retirement via the magic of pay as you go with wage indexing.
Bernanke knows that. He is giving you the paragraphs of garbage you just quoted to distract your attention while his accomplises pick your pockets and rape your grandmother.
what he is saying has NOTHING to do with his reasons for crippling Social SEcurity. that makes it lies.
Special Treasuries in the Trust Fund DO NOT carry a fixed 2% rate. Instead they carry the same rates as Regular Treasuries issued in that same year with the same term. A fact that can be demonstrated by inspection of the Annual Report.
MG
what the hell was that all about?
there is a budger problem. the problem is that congress has already borrowed more money than it wants to pay back. so it is going to steal it from future retirees.
that is a huge problem. and you can’t make it go away by suggesting we “discuss” all the ins and outs of the budget. there is an easy fix to the budget problem: raise the taxes back up to the Clinton levels, and PAY OUR GODDAM BILLS.
Matt B
good recitation of the right wing talking points. think much?
we could reduce the deficit by raising taxes. or spending less on military. or spending less on banks.
meanwhile even medicare or the new health plan are, or should be, just a way for people to pay for their own expenses. that is NOT government spending.
Josh M
I KNOW they are sustainable. which is more than you know.
as for “democrats” being liberals, you haven’t been paying attention.
“The U.S. population will change significantly in coming decades with the combined effect of the decline in fertility rates following the baby boom and increasing longevity.”
As Joel Garreau pointed out in “300 Million and Counting,” the US population has been replacing itself at a rate of ~2.1. With the rate of immigration the US has, the likelihood of replacement dropping below what it is today is low as immigrants reproduce at a higher rate than citizens 2-3 generations later.
“As our population ages, the ratio of working-age Americans to older Americans will fall, which could hold back the long-run prospects for living standards in our country.”
This is a spin to the issue of revenues gained from SS Withholding Taxes. In the past the CBO stated that productivity gains adequately replaced the decreasing ratio of workers to retiree which is why the projections for SS Withholding Tax Revenues remained stable. What has changed is the Civilian Labor Force as a part of the Civilian Non Institutional Population. The percentage of the population in the Civilian Labor force has decreased since 2001. The decrease in revenues is more the result of this rather than the ratio of workers to retirees. The gap has gone from 1.92% to 2.02% if I remember Bruce’s statistic correctly and can easily be corrected. Bernanke should concentrate on getting more of the Civilian Non Institutional Population back into the Civilian Labor Force rather than be so concerned about a loss of SS Withholding Revenues which results with fewer people working which is what he is implying with his standard of living statement. Perhaps it is time to tax income resulting from capital?
“The aging of the population also will have a major impact on the federal budget, most dramatically on the Social Security and Medicare programs, particularly if the cost of health care continues to rise at its historical rate. Thus, we must begin now to prepare for this coming demographic transition.”
Of course the aging of the population will have a dramatic impact on both programs which is why we have a TF to carry us through. And yes healthcare costs have been rising at a greater rate than inflation. Medicare healthcare costs have been rising at a lower rate than private insurance costs which still exceed inflation and will have a greater impact on the economy. With the passage of healthcare reform, Medicare has been given more tools to control those costs. Bernanke would have us believe Medicare is the culprit when this is […]
So far the democrats have been selling all benefit to low information voters that don’t realize that money does not grow on trees. These people are in for an education when they have their taxes raised and they’re forced to purchase overpriced healthcare to subsidize other people.
And just in case the point I tried to explicate, above, isn’t quite clear enough I’ll add this. There is, by law in the form of the the 1990 Budget Enforcement Act (BEA), no such thing as the unified budget. Social Security FICA contributions and the Trust Fund are specifically excluded from the general budget. That’s the law. It’s been codified that way for twenty years. It was so legislated because some revisionists were constantly trying to make their budgets look different from what they were. When you piss away the county’s wealth on wars of empire and adventure you stoop to deceit and deception. When you refuse to ask the wealthiest citizens to pay their share of the general budget after they’ve enjoyed by a wide margin the fruits of the country’s labours you again have to stoop to deceit and deception to make it appear that you’re on the people’s side. It’s bullshit!! Social Security isn’t the problem. War and greed are the problem. The wealthiest citizens don’t want to give any of it back. They want FICA revenues to be used to pay their debts to the country. We’re the fools if it comes to pass.
Jack,
The funny thing about law is that when you decide its not serving you then you can cancel it and make a new one.
Webb,
The two authors of the WaPo article made the statement from which you extracted the phrase, “sustained support” and attributed such to Bernanke. You misquoted Bernanke.
Bernanke stated this: “To avoid large and unsustainable budget deficits, the nation will ultimately have to choose among higher taxes, modifications to entitlement programs such as Social Security and Medicare, less spending on everything else from education to defense, or some combination of the above.”
Bernanke is correct.
Coberly,
You misquoted Bernanke. The two authors of the WaPo piece made this statement: “Social Security is already draining resources from the broader federal budget, as spending on benefits has risen above this year’s Social Security tax collections.”
I happen to agree with the WaPo authors, but it’s not a statement that Bernanke made during his speech.
Bernanke stated this: “To avoid large and unsustainable budget deficits, the nation will ultimately have to choose among higher taxes, modifications to entitlement programs such as Social Security and Medicare, less spending on everything else from education to defense, or some combination of the above.”
Bernanke is correct.
A
As noted above, “We’re the fools if it comes to pass.”
Do you suggest that Social Security is the problem? Or, do you recognize that Bush tax cuts, Obama’s reluctance to allow those tax cuts to sunset, Iraq and Afghanistan are the fundamental budget issues? The distinction is that simple. Restore tax levels to year 2000 levels. Stop pissing away the country’s revenues in Iraq and Afghanistan and the budgetary crisis is resolved. Where’s the big mystery?
Jack – “The chart that MG refers us to doesn’t make it clear whether the budget being described is the UNIFIED budget, (that’s the make believe there’s no legislatively mandated seperate funding mechanism budget) or the real budget which excludes off-budget items which are not paid for out of general taxes. I suspect that that chart is the make believe we have a unified budget chart.”
Take a look at Table 1-2 of the second CBO report. That’s the source of CBO’s chart figures. CBO’s deficit figures include on-budget and off-budget numbers, hence CBO provides net deficit figures which subtract any off-budget surplus monies.
http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/112xx/doc11280/Chapter1.shtml#1114105
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Bruce Webb – “MG given that you never give ANY analysis, I have to laugh here.”
Webb,
If you have a source that provides better analysis of the President’s budget than CBO, post it hotshot.
If I thought that my personal analysis was better, it would be posted in comments. I believe that the CBO analysis is pretty good, considering that I talked to a number of economists and other analysts who have reviewed the latest CBO report.
Bruce Webb – “MG given that you never give ANY analysis, I have to laugh here.”
Aside from citing CBO, CBPP, and other sources that have conducted analyses, I have posted my general observations many times. Here is an example:
It appears to many individuals with whom I speak that open and honest economic and budgetary discussions would include consideration of the bigger picture without the sidebar tracks of xxx vs yyy or whatever else serves as a diversion from the larger picture. We could stick with the prinipal budgetary issue that will be faced in the future – as summarized by bob mcmanus.
My opinion as expressed elsewhere on Nov 18:
The Federal Government budget issue and, in essence, the problem going forward will boil down to a battle over mandatory versus discretionary funding of various programs. Assuming that all mandatory funding requirements will be satisfied by the Congress, the problem rolls over to the priorities that will be established, revised, and discarded as pertain to Government programs funded through discretionary funding.
Whether further adjustments are made to mandatory funding programs remains to be seen. Similarly, the manner in which all of the Government’s many, many trust funds and related programs will be supported in the future comes into question. While the majority of the trust funds do not involve mandatory funding obligations, their revenues have thus far covered portions of General Fund shortfalls in funding other programs, primarily discretionary programs.
So, roll the clock forward to any time period and envision the General Fund mandatory versus discretionary funding problem. As mandatory funded programs require more Federal funding commitments, whether due to program cost increases or reductions for whatever reason in supporting dedicated revenue streams (specific program related taxes, fees, et al), the issue becomes apparent. Programs other than mandatory funded programs will be facing stiffer competition among one another for utilization of remaining General Fund and specific based revenues. The same situation may become more dire for programs supporting by other trust funds, such as funding for highways, airports, bridges, and all the other programs supposedly funded by trust funds which get dumped into the General Fund.
Now, which programs suffer funding reductions if additional revenues are not sourced? Which programs tied to trust funds suffer? Which discretionary programs suffer minor or major losses, or simply disappear? Which mandatory funding programs will be modified to offset additional shortfalls in the General Fund under the Unified Budget? These will the principal issues facing the Congresses going forward if additional revenue streams are not identified, collected, and enforced. And do not forget the mandatory interest payment obligations on existing and new federal debt. All of that comes into play.
Are the mandatory funding programs, other than interest payments on Federal Debt, guaranteed to be protected and funded without modification? Are the discretionary programs in place today safe from future cuts?
These are the issues that Members of Congress will debate as new and additional discretionary funding obligations are introduced in the Congress. The additional funding requirements for U.S. infrastructure alone will require large sums of money. Some of those needs are tied directly to existing trust funds and others are not. Regardless, the call for expenditures will occur as the infrastructure requires upgrading and the source will be General Fund revenues.
None of the Goverment programs other than interest payment obligations are safe from funding support changes. And it […]
Jack,
Do you suggest that Social Security is the problem?
Yes, and this seems to be a growing bipartisan consensus. I agree with the Bush tax cuts but like any law they were not permanent. The healthcare bill no more permanent then the Bush tax cuts. Restoring taxes to they way they were under Clinton will not balance today’s budget. Clinton only had surplus for a couple years because of high capital gains. These surpluses were never sustainable. And Clinton was the “the age of big government is over” president. The bottom line is that Obama needs to sell massive new accross the board tax hikes for people of all income brackets. If he can’t do this then say goodbye to the what some people call the progressive agenda. If he tries to do this then I think he will sink the democrats. All we hear on the media is how the republicans are in trouble. I don’t see it that way and I think its the democrats who are the lemmings headed for the cliff.
Coberly,
What I originally posted is the truth. There are plenty of examples on this blog almost every month.
There has been no main post focusing on the President’s FY2011 budget or a subsequent analysis of the submitted budget. None.
Some of you guys are busy running around saying everything under the Sun, but you haven’t shown any specific knowledge of the President’s budget nor the CBO projections related to it. You’re not looking at the big picture. You personally could care less and have said so a number of times.
The overall failure to review the President’s budget as a main post makes some of the commentary about what the commission supposedly will and will not do a bit of a joke.
There is no General Fund analysis being performed by main posters at AB. Zip. Yet, the “experts” on the commission are all lined up. Well, it would help to focus some attention on the main issue – the projections for the General Fund.
Coberly,
You KNOW that Medicare and Medicaid are sustainable? Give me a break.
A,
No sweat, the current and former Government leadership will go for another test run on the VAT or national sales tax just as they did last May and again last fall. Volcker raised the issue again this week, so there is some traction for the idea. We should hear the same support again from Pelosi as she shared with Charlie Rose last fall during an interview.
In my opinion, it’s just a matter of time.
MG
bullshit
the “higher taxes” MIGHT BE a 2% rise in the payroll tax spread out over forty years. he is implying…and he knows damn well that he’s doing it… that some staggering increase in the general taxes will be necessary unless Social Security is cut. OR he is saying that general taxes should not be raised but the Trust Fund should be stiffed.
I think the expression is “constructive lie” but i am not sure of the terms of art. In any case the technique is well known and practiced by the best liars, damned liars.
I don’t know what the hell your point is (hell is another term of art. i am not just swearing) unless you agree with Bernanke that cutting Social Security is preferable to raising taxes of any kind, even on the people who already paid for their Social Security but would pay for it again to avoid the cuts and be able to retire while they still have enough life left to enjoy it.
MG
you seem to be unable to follow a thread of thought. the General Fund may or may not need more taxes to reduce the deficit in the general fund.
the general fund does not need to steal the money from Social Security which has its own revenue stream and is fully funded for at least the next twenty years, and can be funded forever with timely very tiny tax increases if needed.
you are either being obtuse because you like to be obtuse, or because you have bought into the scam, or because you are incapable of understanding the realities here. gramma working until she is seventy is not just a “budget item” and when you ahve to bend the facts and lie to the public to pretend that it is you belong in jail or a mental institution.
clear?
Coberly,
Bernanke was addressing the problems with the Federal Budget going forward. Hence, Bernanke stated this:
Bernanke’s speech: “To avoid large and unsustainable budget deficits, the nation will ultimately have to choose among higher taxes, modifications to entitlement programs such as Social Security and Medicare, less spending on everything else from education to defense, or some combination of the above.”
Bernanke is correct.
Bernanke is focusing on the big picture.
MG
i know nothing about Medicaid. Social Security is not Medicaid. Give me a break. I have never talked about Medicaid.
Medicare is not OASDI which is what I talk about. even Medicare is sustainable once you realize that you are going to have to pay the medical care insurance in any case and Medicare is the surest, cheapest, fairest way to pay for it. With a moderate amount of intelligence we can cut the cost in half. But even without any intelligence the cost will be less in real dollars by far than the increase in incomes expected over the same time. So that no one will have less because of Medicare. They will just not be able to take that second vacation in Vegas every year. Pay Attention. I have said all this before.
A
keep warm in your bipartisan consensus. if this wasn’t a bipartisan theft it wouldn’t be so dangerous.
funny how your bipartisan consensus leads to bashing the democrats. do you have a thought disorder?
A:
Which people will pass more taxes? ~97% of the taxpaying populace will be excluded from those taxes which start at >$200,000 for individuals and $250,000 for married couples. For once, the taxes will also impact non-payroll income or such not coming from hourly wages. I saw nothing in the signed House Reconciliation Bill attacking lower incomes with more taxes and I did see greater subsidies and a cap of 9.5% of income on insurance.
A:
The problem is low revenues. The causes of the low revenue are the 2001/2003 tax breaks (48%), the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and Homeland Security (35%), and to a lesser extent entitlements and discretionary programs (17%). http://www.cbpp.org/cms/?fa=view&id=692 Figure 1. Toss on top of this, the ongoing recession for Labor since 2001 and the bulk of today’s problem is explainable. Participation Rate, or that percentage of the Civilian Non-Institutional Population in the Civilian Labor Force, has been trending downward since the end of the 2001 Recession. No amount of taxcuts or capital investment has changed the course of this decline for Labor.
To blame SS for deficits lacks merit especially in light of the surplus revenues it has generated since 1983. Fix the problem of getting more people back into the Civilian Labor Force and the issue of deficits will decrease significantly. That is even more true when combined with reductions in the war effort and the sunseting of taxes for the upper 3% of the taxpayers. Putting in place a VAT will not solve the issue of getting people back to work and is also a regressive tax.
As far as bipartisanism for SS; the biggest reason the Dems lost in MA was not the issue of Healthcare, it was not addressing the issue of Jobs. Bipartisanism amongst Blue Dog Dems (Repubs in Dem skins) and Repubs in selling the SS and the VAT snake oil to the populace will not fix the issue of Jobs in the nation.
Jack has it right
coberly,
First remember I’m on your side here.
MG is being very clear and goes back to what I have pointed out many times before. The congress (both parties are guilty going back through Reagan’s Presidency) has no problem spending the excess SS funds, providing the SS with IOUs in the form of special treasuries, and bolstering the general fund. Everyone is happy, the debt gets lowered and congress doesn’t have to make any real hard decisions. Congress and the Pres can look down the road and quckly figure out that this situation is not sustainable but its not a problem’ RIGHT NOW, so they punt.
Well, its RIGHT NOW time. The time as come for SS to start to cash the IOUs. This means funds transfered FROM the general fund to SS (instead of the other way around). SS, in isolation, repeat, in isolation, is fully funded and only needs tiny tweeks to keep it that way. Agreed. BTW MG agrees also I bet.
But the problem, as I have pointed out many times, is the general fund. And that is the point Bernecke and MG are making. The fact they lump SS in with the rest is immaterial and what seems to be setting you off. You could restate Bernecke’s quote to say,”Becuase of the terrible budget shortfalls in the general fund, we have to do something.”
You objection seems to be in the inclusion of the repayment of the SS IOUs into that “do something” list. Great, everyone agrees with you (well at least I do!). But it still doesn’t get around two distinct facts:
1) Paying back SS IOUs comes out of general fund revenues. And the Dem President and Dem controlled Congress seem not to want to pay them back (If you want to say the Dems are stealing your SS fine with me). MG is NOT bending the facts or lieing. He is pointing out the obvious.
2) And the second is most easily expressed in a graph (which has NEVER made the front page of AB to date..)
MG
no, he is not focusing on the big picture. he is practicing misdirection. talking about budget deficits while preparing to cut social security, which has nothing to do with budget deficits. but he sure has your number.
Buff
thank you. and I respect the fact that you do NOT do what MG does. Bernanke is not “just” including SS as an example of what “might” have to be done. He has gone before Congress and told them to steal the money from Social Securitiy “because that’s where the money is.” MG loses himself in tons of “data” where he cannot follow the logic. Or keep track of the numbers. “Fixing” Social Security is cheap. It is not an alternative to “huge cuts in defense and education.”
MG doesn’t have the flexibility to bed bacts or lie. He just loses himself in the forests of his own mind. And hes the Dems are stealing, not my SS, but your children’s. Pray they won’t need it. But other people’s children will… when they are other people’s grannies.
Bernanke knows he is lying. MG dosn’t have the mental flexibility to lie, but he can’t properly be said to know anything because he has no sense of proportion: The gun in that mans hand is very small, actually, so let us sit here and discuss the full range of reasons he might have for pointing it at you. And when he says “your money or your life” is he making a threat or is that some deep philosophical truth we need to study by reading all the volumes in the library of Alexandria?
Buff
it is not perfectly clear what the graph is saying. I take it it’s a graph of yearly budget deficits. They look huge, which I guess is your point. But are they huge relative to the economy’s ability to pay? Are they necessary to restore the economy? there are good arguments that say they are? is the money being mis-spent? you could convince me.
does it have anything to do with Social Security? NO. Absolutely not.
I KNOW they’re sustainable!!
Its a complete fallacy to think we can “run out of money to pay for healthcare”. We can run out of titanium to build our prostheses. We can run short of well trained personnell to treat people (if we defund education like the conservatives of the world wish). We can lack hospital bedspace. We can have an epidemic which overwhelms current supplies in the system. All those are real health care problems which we will have to face and are currently facing. None of those problems will be any better if we simply “save some money now”. When the real problems described above hit, it wont matter whether we’ve saved money now, that wont solve the problem.
Coberly – “he [Bernanke] is practicing misdirection. talking about budget deficits while preparing to cut social security, which has nothing to do with budget deficits.”
So, the Federal Reserve is “preparing to cut social security”?
i have no idea what bed bacts means. or hes the Dems. some typos just get away from me.
one more effort to communicate at the bottom (so far) of this thread.
Greg
you are right. but don’t expect anyone to understand what you are saying.
part of their problem, and mine, is that “money” is just the way we allocate resources. “saving money” now for health care later would be training more doctors or building more hospitals, or researching better treatments and meds. that isn’t what they are going to do with the money. they are going to use it to buy more submarines for the war on terror.
of course we could also save money by following the european example for health care. but our sacred american way of doing things will stop us from doing that. too bad, it means the money is going to corporate jets and greens fees. frankly, i don’t think the doctors enjoy those things as much as they think, but it makes them feel successful and that counts for a lot in this world.
the truly damned fallacy here, the one MG makes every time, is that “balancing the books” actually means anything, compared to letting granny retire when she has paid her retirement dues. i know the books have to be balanced, but “balancing the books” is just an abstraction that allows people like Bernanke to fool people like MG into thining they are doing something sober and responsible when they are just stealing the “work” of granny and using it for their own rather trivial purposes.
A
you don’t quite know what you are talking about. Clinton rates would begin to balance the budget. the “deficit” could be paid down with a 2 or 3% raise in the marginal rates above 100k. Clinton may have gotten a break with the computer boom, but the Republican religion says that even computer booms can’t happen with Democrat tax levels. They are clearly wrong, but that has never stopped them. Because they likehearing it so much. And even the dems like hearing it so now they are doing it do. But it is madness.
I don’t mean to be rude, or to insult people.
But MG keeps ignoring what I say and then accusing me of ignoring the facts. He is like the bank vice president who sees a robbery in progress and decides that’s the time to examine the books.
I know there is a budget problem. But the answer to the budget problem is not to steal the retirements of the people who have paid for them, or who would be glad to pay for them if the knew the choices.
Bernanke hides the choices under a cloud of misdirection and language designed to fool the people. In my language that is called “lying.” MG, and to a lesser extent kharris, seem to think that if a liar can fool people to their harm without ever saying anything that is “objectively untrue” he gets a free pass.
Well, maybe he gets to stay out of jail, but he would be run out of any town that catches on to what he is doing.
So one more time to MG: try to get straight in your mind that what is being proposed is to take the money that people trusted the government to hold for them to secure their retirement and use it to pay for other things. This is theft. And all the budget analysis in the world will not change that.
If you lent your son a half a million dollars with the understanding that he would pay you back by the time you needed it for your retirement, and he called you on the phone and said, yeah Dad, I know you lent me the money and I promised to pay you back, but i’ve had a lot of heavy expenses lately and business hasn’t been good. And you know I lost a lot in Vegas, so my budget just won’t allow me to send the check i promised…
would you say, well, that’s fine son, balance your books, that’s what’s important here.
Coberly,
If you bothered to study the projected deficits and growing national debt burden, a few things might become more clear. Making modifications to the existing programs in Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid alone won’t solve the outyear deficit problems. The Federal budget and national debt problems are larger than the outlays for mandatory programs.
The future growth in interest payment obligations paid out of the General Fund will crowd out discretionary spending, assuming that the mandatory programs will continue to exist and receive Federal outlays. Federal interest payment obligations are projected to increase substantially by FY2020. Looking beyond 2020 is case for concern.
Your general lack of interest in the Federal Budget and what government programs may ultimately be impacted by growing deficits and increases in the national debt is a problem of your own creation. You don’t bother to study the big picture. Your repeated commentary week after week, saying the same old talking points, is an indication that you may never see the larger problem. In your case, that appears to be intentional.
Others, unlike some participating in the AB “we know-it-all show”, are focused on the big picture. And that’s where the Congressional attention will be for years to come.
This is how the conversation went:
Josh M – “She’s a Democrat and always has been, and the reason she says that the middle class entitlement programs are unsustainable is because they are unsustainable.”
Coberly – “I KNOW they are sustainable. which is more than you know.”
Your answer to Josh was wrong. You don’t appear to know whether Medicare or Medicaid are sustainable. Most importantly, you have shown no interest in reviewing the fiscal year projected costs of either of these mandatory programs on the Federal budget.
Once the Administration and CBO update their budget projections based on the passage of the healthcare bill and again once an immigration bill is passed, it will be worth noting the projected growth in Medicaid outlays. Projected Medicaid growth, as revealed in the President’s Budget and CBO’s analysis of such, is already substantial. Once the budget updates are in place, it will become apparent (to some) that Medicaid outlays may be destined to become a serious budget problem.
You don’t study the Federal budget in any detail, so your answer to Josh was just talk. A lot of hot air and emotion as evidenced in your response.
Coberly,
You’re clueless on the Federal budget. Making phony claims doesn’t change that.
coberly,
The graph has nothing to do with SS (correct). Its the general fund deficit. Look I agree with Bruce and your arguments. SS, by itself, is in good shape. The problem is it looks like just another revenue stream to Congress (like the old telecom tax that paid for the Spanish-American War or something – but never went away). To them gramma IS just another line item on the budget. MG may be a little clumsy with his point, but I understood it. And Yes it ain’t pretty…
Your bottom line is correct: SS is in good shape AND Congress has no intention of repaying those IOUs. MG is just providing the info on why Congress/Fed/President is acting with such, well stupidity. They are grasping at any straw that can solve the problem illustrated in the graph I posted. They have a massive problem with the general fund. Lumping SS in the mix is not smart, but they are desperate to solve the problem and the SS funds look like real money. That’s why your seeing talk from Dems about hugely regressive new taxes (VAT and National Sales Tax). Its all rolled up in the same ball.
The key is to get SS out of the mix. You and Bruce have excellent arguments for doing just that. BUt can you imagine your reaction if in 2005 if someone told you a Dem President and Dem Congress would lead the charge on SS “reform”? Heck I still have problem with the concept today when I’m watching it!
Keep up the goodwork and go play with the kids, your blood-pressure seems to be up.
Islam will change
Ok, I could be wrong about the 2%. I was just going by some “news” i read on the subjet, but with the amount of BS we get in “factual” information, I don’t doubt it is incorrect. Plus I heard Bush mention once that it is 2%.
Only thing that makes me suspicious about any claim that they match the characteristics of rates and term of real treausuries, is that I don’t think Special Treasuries have a term, which is what makes them so “special”. When we need to dip into the fund to make payments, someone needs to retire the IOUs at that point and replace them with cash for SS check clearing purposes. That means selling real tresuries to raise the cash.
I of course am interested in finding out what the real story is, and have been a little frustrated about where we can find our Trust Fund manager’s performance report on our soveriegn wealth portfolio. (sarcasm)
Could you provide a link to the enlightening document?
MG
try not to be obtuse. Bernanke is not the Federal Reserve. Bernanke went to Congress and told them to rob Social Security because “that’s where the money is.” Bernanke is part of an orgainized plot to destroy Social Security. That’s not paranoia. You can read about it on their web site. Bruce will give you the details. Or you could just read the paper and put two and two together. Hint: it’s four, not Trillions and Trillions.
Coberly,
You, Webb, and some others are engaged in a single focus.
Your personal focus is not on the needs of the Federal Government in order to support a wide range of programs well beyond the needs of mandatory programs’ obligations.
You’re ill informed on the Federal budget process. That is due to your lack of interest. It’s not more complicated than that.
You and Webb are now running off the rails, misquoting government representatives. In your case, you are calling Bernanke a liar.
There aren’t that many readers commenting on these threads. So, it’s pretty easy for you guys to play out the single focus game. But those efforts don’t change what is being discussed in Washington, D.C. regarding the Federal budget projections.
A couple of you guys can turn the blog into a clown show, filled with ignorance and half-truths, lumped in with some false statements. None of that is going to change what is unfolding. As importantly, endless repetition of old talking points may result in less readership interest.
The main posters of this blog have ignored discussing the President’s new budget and CBO’s analysis of such. That failure leads to endless one-sided chatter from people like you and Webb.
I doubt that Angry Bear will be a prime source for most readers attempting to discuss the growing national debt, large deficits, or ways to resolve Federal budget issues. There is not much to learn here on that score. Besides, some of you are such zealots that you undertake all sorts of efforts to kill off discussion of the big picture.
MG
your complete inablity to understand the facts in front of you makes me wonder just exactly what you are learning from studying the big picture. or doing your famous budget analysis. you miss the critical point: Social Security has nothing to do with the Budget. People pay a dedicated tax which, under pay as you go, they get back to pay for their groceries when they retire. This has nothing to do with the Federal Budget. If the Federal Budget is in trouble Congress needs to fix it. It does not need to steal the money from the people who paid for their Social Security and will continue to pay for it if Congress lets them.
There is a difference between “talking points” which are what the political operatives prepare for their front men to spew into the public ear, and repeating the facts in the hope that some of you will catch on.
Buff
thanks. for the record I knew in 1996 that the Dems were part of the problem. I knew when Obama was running that he was at least misinformed about Social Security. I did not know that he was part of the criminal conspiracy. I still don’t know that. But at some point stupidity looks like dishonesty.
Which leaves MG. I understand your point. And if that was his point, I’d understand it too. But he keeps on saying “the big picture” without actually saying what it is, in a way that sounds to me that he doesn’t understand that granny paid for her Social Securiyt and Bernanke is telling Congress to steal it.
MG
I do study the Social Security “budget.” So I know it is sustainable. You must excuse me if I read a few words and take them to mean something different from what you take them to mean that suits your purposes.
For the record, I not only, for present purposes, don’t give a damn about “the Budget.” I don’t give a damn about Medicaid or Medicare.
On another day I will care about the budget and tell you they need to raise taxes or cut spending. But not Social Security spending which is not part of the budget.
And on another day I might care about Medicaid. It’s a welfare program. It may be necessary. It is not what I am talking about. And Bernanke did not go to congress and say “rob Medicaid, that’s where the money is.” He said rob Social Security, that’s where the money is.”
And on another day I might care about Medicare. But Medicare does need to be fixed. It needs to pay for itself like Social Security. It needs to cut costs by any number of methods. But at the end of the day even if it is not fixed it can sustain itself by taxes appropriate to the level of medical care the people want and the sacred way Americans pay for it.
Try to remember this the next time you tell me I am missing the big picture. You seem to be stunned by the big picture. What does your budget “analysis” tell you after you have ignored that Social SEcurity has nothing to do with “the budget”?
MG
the federal budget has nothing to do with what i am talking about. it would help your case if you could make a coherent argument instead of repeating “big picture, big picture” as if it meant something.
Coberly,
You lost your effectiveness on talking points long ago.
coberly.
The big picture, grossly simplified, is that graph I posted. Congress, IMHO, never intended to pay back SS and always hoped it would run a surplus (which could then be placed in a lock-box with an IOU attached that they never redeemed). I’m prettty sure MG understands that good old granny paid for her SS. What he and I are pointing out is that Congress really doesn’t give a damn. They (Congress) just see a revenue stream for the general fund that is turning from black to red. That, simplified, is also the ‘big picture”. And yes they might well steal it. With a Democratic Majority and President Obama (D) signing it in a big rose-garden ceremony on how he (Obama) solved the budget crises by “making the hard choices” “for the children”. TM.
Unfortuanately I can see it…
Islam will change
Cedric
you sound like a good guy. a little misinformed… but you know that. i think you identify a problem with the special treasuries. Bruce or someone could give both of us better information. But the problem has not been that the Trust Fund is mismanaged. The problem is that there is a conspiracy to kill Social Security and all the talk about the Trust Fund is actually smoke and mirrors. They will take any event, distort any “truth” until they find something that sticks in the public imagination and use that as an excuse for “fixing” Social Security, by which they mean destroy it.
Coberly,
MG is not your problem. Your problem is that you don’t know enough about the Federal budget and what will be entailed to straighten it out.
Your single focus is fine when we’re only talking about one or two Social Security programs (you only focus on one of them), but the Congress isn’t focused solely on one program as it attempts to deal with the Federal budget issues. Their focus is on the big picture – the entire Federal budget and the projections going forward.
Others and I have discussed the big picture a number of times since this blog was created. Now, the reality is starting to kick in. The national debt is exploding and what happens on that issue after FY2020 is a serious concern for Congress to deal with whenever they decide to get serious.
The issue is the big picture. CBO discusses it in detail as do many other sources. All you have to do is read some of the information. Those analyses explain what the big picture is and what problems are involved.
MG
you are the clown here. some people try to talk about the lies being used by the people trying to kill social security and you come in with your clown face on and ring your bell “big picture, look at the big picture.” the governmetn has all of these wide ranging needs and the only place they can get the money is to steal it from widows and orphans.
This is the lie Bernanke is telling, and you believe it because you can’t get it into your head the Social Security is a dedicated program. People paid their money directly for their own retirement. Thatl’s the reason Social Security is “off budget.” So no goddam politican can steal it from them.
Except the goddam politicans can steal it from them if people like Bernanke and you can fool them. “Look! Over There!” and while you are looking, he pockets the familly silver.
I am sure Willie Sutton had a “wide range of ” needs for the money. IF you had asked him maybe he would have given you a book to read all about his family’s financial problems and how he needed the money to send his kid to Harvard, and to buy the bullets for the gun he is robbing you with.
So, tell us something about this “big picture.” Try to explain exactly how robbing Social Security is the right way for Congress to manage its financial problems. Try to use an actual argument, not the kind of ad hominem garbage in the comment above.
You get so angry when people direct ad hominem at you, you’d think you’d be more careful about it.
Coberly – “For the record, I not only, for present purposes, don’t give a damn about “the Budget.” I don’t give a damn about Medicaid or Medicare.”
Then you have no business pretending to know that Medicaid and Medicare are sustainable.
You also are a poor source of information for any discussions about the Federal Budget and future projections related to such.
Readers would be well advised to ignore quite a bit of your chatter. Your few key points about the one Social Security program have been repeated so often that they have become boring.
and now friends i have to go out and do some real work. i have not run away. i’ll be back.
btw
calling Bernanke a liar is not ad-hominem. it’s simply a fact. and a warning. kind of “look out, he’s got a gun!”
well, look out. he’s got a lie. and it’s pointed at you.
Coberly – “the federal budget has nothing to do with what i am talking about. it would help your case if you could make a coherent argument instead of repeating “big picture, big picture” as if it meant something.”
You’re simply wrong. Period.
The big picture is the entire Federal budget and projections related to it.
MG,
Look, coberly and Bruce and others basic point is that SS should NOT be lumped into the federal budget process since its self-funding and sustainable. Their point is that Bernecke is being dishonest by lumping SS in with everything else. They don’t like that frame if you will.
You, on the other hand, have focused on the unified budget approach which sees SS taxes as just another revenue stream to the Federal budget. And the unified budget looks horrible and the general budget ( a subset like SS is a subset of the unified budget) looks even worse.
In many ways your both correct, just talking about two different things.
1) The general fund is in horrible shape and repaying those SS IOUs is a net drain on the general fund.
2) SS is in great shape, easily sustainable over long horizens with only minor tweaking.
Both of those statements are true. The second assumes that the SS IOUs will be repaid in full and with interest.
What we are seeing is Congress that is grappling with problem 1, the big picture, and no longer (if it ever did) sees SS as a seperate entity outside the confines of the Federal Budget. It isn’t and neither are medicare or medicaid (sorry coberly you are incorrect here). Its getting pretty obvious that Congress sees the SS taxes as just another revenue stream. Wheather or not that is a good idea (or even currently legal) may be a point of debate (I don’t think its a good idea).
But my congressmen are all Rs and don’t get much play in this discussion these days.
BTW, the reason AB no longer talks about the ‘big picture’ federal budget is becuase after pilloring (correctly) Bush for his deficit spending for years we get a Dem in the Whitehouse who makes Bush’s worse deficit years look like rounding errors. Any discussion of this subject wipes out even the slightest pretense of the Dems ever being called a fiscally responsible party.
Same reason the war has fell off the radar, or FISA, or the Patriot Act or any of the Bush policies that the left railed about for years but suddenly became dead silent about when they had a D in office. Basically tells me they really didn’t care about this stuff…I still remember the days when PGL was off on another rant about the evils of the Rs. The fact that since the 2006 mid-terms the D never once even tried to change them (as I predicted) nor even batted an eye since Obama came to office is quite telling. It would be great to see PGL defending Obama on his surge in Afghanistan!
Islam will change
Coberly,
You’re lack of knowledge about the Federal budget is of your own doing.
Your personal attacks are useless. That doesn’t change the fact that you have very limited knowledge of the scope of the Federal budget problem.
The big picture issue is the entire Federal budget and projections related to it. That you don’t have the interest or background to address the big picture is not anyone’s fault but your own.
Buff,
The big picture issue is simple. The solutions are not.
The Social Security programs do have an impact on the Federal budget. Moreover, as mandatory funding programs, they have a direct impact on discretionary spending and/or deficit growth any time the SSA combined programs are not running cash surpluses.
The deficit commission and Congress will be looking at ways to minimize the Federal budget impacts of the mandatory spending programs. That will happen. And reviewing the Social Security programs will occur.
Those who don’t want to look at the overall Federal budget problems will continue to attempt to kill off any discussions of the larger picture.
This blog is unlikely to be a valued source for such larger issue discussions. Unfortunately.
I’m a little astonished that the American public hasn’t demanded to be informed on how our near $5 trillion Trust Fund is performing as an investment fund. I think the reason is that it is cast to be something other than an investment fund, and if returns are below the inflation rate and payout guaranteed to be inflation adjusted, that means it will self destruct due to mis-management, with or without a conspiracy to destroy it.
But of course there is a conspiracy, and all they need to do is pretend they just recently discovered that there is a baby boom, forget that we paid in $5 trillion to the fund, and make projections to show how the money runs out some day, hike the payroll tax, cut the payout or tell us we are working until age 69, maintain the surplus, then spend the surplus invading Iran, going to Mars, Cialis for Seniors, earmarks for whatever, or any other whim that 500 some congresspersons can agree on.
That’s what I think needs fixing.
BTW, Canada had something like SS, but decided the concept is flawed and changed it to a real soveriegn weath fund and it is managed like any other pension fund.
thanks Buff
but you can see what good it did. Even if I didn’t disagree with you about SS being part of the Federal Budget… a point you seem to concede when you say it might be illegal for Congress to tap its funds for general revenue… we are left with MG chanting “big picture, big picture” but with no substantive argument whatsoever.
These are the relevant facts
Social Security was created ‘off budget’ exactly to protect it from raids by “damn politicians” like we are seeing today. It has it’s own revenue stream. It is people paying a “tax” to pay in advance for their own retirement/insurance. Government does not fund it. Or do anything except provide the legal framework for “pay as you go”. And, of course, it’s not voluntary. Because if it were it wouldn’t work. Just like those traffic lights.
The huge horribe hairy “unfunded deficit” projected for Social Security amounts to a possible need to raise the payroll tax 4% combined (that’s 2% if you work for someone else) sometime around 2040. This is not an insignificant amount of money. Neither is it huge. It will come back to you to pay for your needs in retirement that may last twenty years or more. Moreover the generation that will pay the tax wlll have wages at from 50% higher (in 2040) to more than twice as much (in 2085) as we have today. So they will pay a little more out of a much bigger paycheck to pay for a much longer retirement at living standards that keep pace with their neighbors.
A better way to close the “unfunded deficit” would be to enact a trigger into the law that would raise the tax one tenth of one percent at need. This would be 80 cents per week, or an average of 20 cents per week per year over the whole 75 year period. With the need for raises largely disappearing after that. No one would even feel raises of this magnitude and timing.
Or, some part of the raise could be enacted immediately to help Congress with its cash flow problem. There is no reason to expect a future Congress would ever repay the money they would be thus borrowing. But it would be better for the workers to just let themselves get stiffed as long as they keep Social Security, the present retirement age, and the present level of benefits. Better to be robbed than robbed and murdered.
These are the facts, with as little rhetoric as I can manage today. Or you can go back and read MG and see what “big picture big picture” actually means. Maybe I need to include those flying saucers Bush was so fond of talking about.
the bigger picture:
the cost of repaying the money Congress borrowed from Social Security would amount to a 2% to 3% increase in the marginal rate on incomes over 100k. or they could borrow the money ffom the public and keep waiting for those tax cuts to pay for themselves like they said they would.
people like MG and Bernanke will not tell you the big picture means paying the millionaires by stealing the money from widows and orphans. but that’s what it means.
so let me make it clear: i have never believed in robbing the rich to give to the poor. but i am not going to stand around and be polite while the rich rob the poor to give to themselves.
coberly,
I agree with your above (1:41 and 1:46 posts). But Obama and the Dem Congress are going about it in just the way MG is putting it. They are trying to find a way to stop the bleeding in the general fund. And IOU or no IOU sending money from the general fund to the SS money pot is part of that bleed. It shouldn’t be. I wish they didn’t see it that way, but it looks like they do (from all indications). We can hope they just raise withholding a little on payroll taxes to put SS in the black without any drastic changes (like means testing, raising the retirement age to 75 etc(
To add a little snark – wasn’t this what you guys voted for with the Hope and Change thing? Or was that Change and Hope?(Pray?)
Islam will change
No MG, you are wrong about the budget if you continue to conflate Social Security funds with the general budget and its deficiency. Social Security is an off budget program. The concept of the unified budget is a popular falacy that those who want to scam the working class citizens have been pushing for decades.
The Trust Fund has about $3 Trillion in Treasuries. That’s about the same amount of Treasuries that are held by all foreign countries. Which Treasury Notes are “just so many IOUs?” Why can the Trust Fund Treasuries be disregarded as legitimate? The wealthiest Americans and their representatives in our government have been using the Social Security Trust Fund to hide their budgetary follies and their greed. They don’t want to pay their fair share of the tax burden, so they’re imagining every conceivable mechanism to shift the burden to you, me and Coberly. Only you are too myopic in your ideological perspective and are blinded by that light. Social Security is off budget. Repeat after me.
Social Security is off budget and there is no legislative basis for the so-called unified budget. It’s a lie. If you believe in it your blind to the facts. You’ve succombed to the propaganda campaign. Or maybe you’re a part of that campaign. The Social Security program is off budget. There is no legislative basis for a unified budget. Conflating the two is a deceitful attempt to steal from the poor for the sake of the rich.
No MG, you are wrong about the budget if you continue to conflate Social Security funds with the general budget and its deficiency. Social Security is an off budget program. The concept of the unified budget is a popular falacy that those who want to scam the working class citizens have been pushing for decades.
The Trust Fund has about $3 Trillion in Treasuries. That’s about the same amount of Treasuries that are held by all foreign countries. Which Treasury Notes are “just so many IOUs?” Why can the Trust Fund Treasuries be disregarded as legitimate? The wealthiest Americans and their representatives in our government have been using the Social Security Trust Fund to hide their budgetary follies and their greed. They don’t want to pay their fair share of the tax burden, so they’re imagining every conceivable mechanism to shift the burden to you, me and Coberly. Only you are too myopic in your ideological perspective and are blinded by that light. Social Security is off budget. Repeat after me.
Social Security is off budget and there is no legislative basis for the so-called unified budget. It’s a lie. If you believe in it your blind to the facts. You’ve succombed to the propaganda campaign. Or maybe you’re a part of that campaign. The Social Security program is off budget. There is no legislative basis for a unified budget. Conflating the two is a deceitful attempt to steal from the poor for the sake of the rich.
Ok Jack,
I ‘ll give it a reply. The Treasury notes are no differenthan the ones issued to China. I agree. But Congress can change the payroll tax to insure no one ever redeems them. Congress can’t change China.
So the fact that SS is off budget is immaterial (really). So was all the war supplements. Doesn’t change the fact that the SS surplus was used as a positive input to the general fund and now, from the general funds perspective, is a net drain on it. So is paying the interest on those T-bills to China. The difference between paying back SS T-bills and Chinese owned ones is that Congress owns both sides of the deal with SS. (and the fact that China has nukes and granny doesn’t, but I digress)
Your Democratic Congress and Obama (D) owning both sides of this deal can do a myraid of things to avoid paying back even 1 penny of those treasuries. They can raise the retirement age to 90. They can reduce the payout of SS. They can raise payroll taxes. They can lift the payroll tax cap. They can mean-test SS payouts. I bet coberly can think of some even more creatively destructive acts to SS that the Democratic Congress can do.
Do I think that’s smart? No. Do I think we should change SS in any way? No. Is there an SS crises? Hell no.
But payouts and pay-ins from/to SS are a direct part of the general budget. To say it isn’t shows someone blind to facts and reality. Its becoming quite obvious that your Democrat Congress does not want to pay back those treasuries from the general fund. I don’t like it. Neither does anyone else here. MG has the same point but you guys got off into your emotional responses.
If you want to be angry I can point you directly to whom you should direct your anger: The Dem Congress and Dem President Obama. They are the ones who look like they may undo FDR’s greatest legacy.
And you guys at AB voted, raised funds, and probably in some cases actually provided labor for his campaign. Well this is the Hope and Change you wanted. Deal with it.
Islam will change
FYI CNN is running another 4 hour infomercial for the Pete Peterson scam this weekend. Let them know what you think about it here: http://action.ourfuture.org/p/dia/action/public/?action_KEY=84
MG
no. you haven’t analyzed anything. you have repeated in various language that there is a big problem with the budget. i know that. all i am trying to do here is point out that stealing from widows and orphans is not the solution to the budget problem.
and i am not talking about stealing as taking the rich man’s money from the widows and orphans to fund some other deserving project. i am talking about taking the widows and orphans own money and using it to pay for the rich man’s wants. their own money. get it?
MG
you have trouble reading. I said I know nothing about Medicaid. I don’t pretend i know it is sustainable. When your favorite liars talk about “entitlements” they mean Social SEcurity.
Social Security is sustainable. So is Medicare, even if I don’t care about it for the moment.
Medicare will be expensive if we dont’ do something about health care costs. But if we don’t do something about health care costs, Medicare will still be the best way to pay for them. And according to the same Trustees that tell you the costs are “unsustainable” the costs will in absolute dollars be less than the rise in incomes over the same time. We may not like paying a higher percent of our income on medical care, but we can. And if we choose to do so, that’s a rational choice. There is nothing unsustainable about it.
Cedric
i agree with much of what you say, but you have got the TRust Fund kind of confused. The money is in bonds that pay the going rate. Except as you point out, there may be no requirement that Congress actually distribute the money in a timely manner. I am not sure of that, I think that if the law were fairly read, they would have an obligation to pay off the bonds as Social SEcurity needs the cash.
It’s not exactly an investment fund… that is, it does not invest in stocks or private bonds looking for high rates of return. It is easy to get confused thinking that it is the government paying back itself. But that’s not what it is. The money came from workers and was lent to the government which presumably used it to make the country stronger and the citizens richer, so that they… mostly the richer half who pay the income tax… can afford to pay back the money borrowed from the workers that they now need to pay their bills in retirement.
Bruce has suggested, and I think it worth thinking about, that the Trust Fund might better be invested in municiple bonds or such like… taking it out of the hands of Congress. I had some resistance to that because the United States is safer than Muni’s… except of course for Congress.
The Trust Fund is not important for Social Security, which is essentially pay as you go. But I could see any excess income… inevitable and probably a good idea… invested as you suggest, and the profits used to lower the tax. But the people would have to understand that losses would require the tax need to be raised. This would not likely prove unduly burdensome, but you can see how hard it would be to explain to people.
Buff
i agree that obama appears to be in on the scam. as for your snark, you haven’t been paying attention. I am not one of “you guys.”
A little raise in the payroll tax would be the ideal solution. But I don’t expect it when the chairman of the commission goes around say that AARP are liars… they don’t care about young people. old people will not be hurt by SS cuts. Apparently in his world young people never become old people.
oh, buff.
you are right about granny not having nukes. but she has the vote. and even if Congress can steal the money from her, that doesn’t mean it should.
MG has never said what you said. he just keeps calling me names because i don’t get “the big picture” when i am telling him “the big picture” is a distraction, hauled in for the purpose of cutting Social SEcurtiy to a level where it no longer functions as meaningful retirement insurance. that has been “their” goal for seventy years. and they have used every turn in the national economy as a new reason why social security must be cut. this is just the latest episode in a long running confidence game.
and the art of the confidence game is never to say anything that can get you sent to jail (objectively untrue) while you mislead them into giving you their money. Bernanke is a master con. MG is what is called in the profession a mark.
oops
i forgot to say that I am not one of those who voted, raised funds, or provided labor for his campaign.
You’d be a lot easier to like if you didn’t keep saying that I am.
coberly,
I was not picking on you with that last swipe and my wife actually cuacussed for Hillary (and I voted for her). Consider it my last gasp swipe at PGL where-ever he may roam. 🙂
I understand your points. And MGs. But the goal should be to get SS off the plate and out of the discussion. The rest follows…have a great weekend.
Islam will change
The whole aging population and worker/retiree ratio has been a red herring from the beginning.
If America needs more young workers in the future it will get them the same place it always has: from overseas or across the southern border. My ancestors arrived as newcomers in this land with odd names like ‘Lutz’ ‘Biesel’ and ‘Arbuckle’, fresh from Germany and Northern Ireland, ready to clear the forests of what was still aptly named Indiana. Thirty years after, new waves of O’Brien’s arrived to build the railroads west while some Changs helped build one east, and twenty years after that NYC teemed with Kowalski’s and Di Angelos.
I haven’t written on this for a few years now, but the fact is that generally the immigration numbers in the Social Security Reports have been a farce and in fact the best evidence that the Reports might have been manipulated for political purposes.
http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/TR/2009/V_demographic.html#205410
Under Intermediate Cost assumptions the response to an aging population and a shifting ratio of workers to retirees will be a permanent and absolute REDUCTION in both legal and ‘other’ immigration with the net result that over time a smaller and smaller percentage of our population will be foreign born. This flies in the face of a couple centuries of American history and simple logic and the economics of supply and demand, the idea that a few decades from now we will we wondering how to find ag workers, night nurses and 7/11 clerks being so laughable as to be not worth mentioning.
Arne does the demographic numbers better than me but from what I see the biggest difference between underfunded Intermediate Cost and actually overfunded Low Cost models are precisely to be seen in this table. You want young workers? Put up fliers overseas like they did when my ancestors got attracted here in the 1820s and 1830s.
Of course some of these new workers might be a little browner than some of us feel comfortable with. Too bad, so sad, speaking for myself I want someone to help me get out of my nursing home bed in a couple or three decades (and am not going to care that I can’t pronounce her name).
MG
Balancing the federal “budget” solves nothing. You really think the simple matter of making all the “outgoing” numbers equal the “incoming” numbers is going to help the employment situation one iota?
You think decreasing spending now gives us more money later? Better yet do you think it makes more things available to buy in the future? Which things?
Thought experiment;
If the govt bought every item available for sale today (at the current price and didnt pull a Reagan and pay 400$ for toilet seats) and gave them out (not saying this is a desirable policy but this is a thought experiment), they could turn around and do it again next Tuesday and would have no financial constraints and would not generate inflation. They would simply be buying in proportion to the level at which things can be produced. They do not have to budget they simply have to limit their spending to what is the productive capacity of the economy. Go beyond that and you have inflation. It has nothing to do with whether or not your tax receipts and spending just happen to match up.
We are currently nowhere near the capacity of our economy, we are in fact waaay below. Talk about balancing inflows and outflows is superfluous and distracting us from the real issues. Anyone concerned about our economic future needs to call bullshit on the bastards that want to cry wolf about our govt budget.
Ok, I found it in Wiki. They state that the special bonds issued in 2005 pay 5.5% so the 2% I read somewhere, and also heard come from Bush’s own lips on TV, is indeed incorrect. The 5.5% rate would coincide with what a real 10 year treasury paid when issued in 2005, so that must be the benchmark they use.
Wiki goes thru a lot of the other arguments about whether the fund is worth anything or not, but I think the simple answer is it is a claim on the US taxpayer, and good as long as the Treasury can collect it or borrow it. Same rule we give real treasuries. Backed by the full faith and credit of the USG, unless congress decides to default.
But the fund is there for a reason. The boomers are/always were expected to draw it down somewhat. That was supposed to ease the burden on gen XYers. But I hear Echo Boomers are almost as numerous as the original boomers, so if they still have jobs in this country then maybe there is light at the end of the tunnel, at least for XYers. But that is as far ahead as I care to think.
But the problem remains that the little slush fund for Congress is drying up when SS payout equal receipts (meaning we are funding this program) and this makes Congress need to go to Treasury for funding all there other stuff underfunded from personal and corporate income tax, etc…. How inconvenient.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Security_Trust_Fund
How on Earth did the Social Security funding stream become the life line of the gneral budget, the funding source for all our government’s follies? How is it that the specified funds of both FICA (the pay as you go portion) and the Trust Fund (the rainy day portion) became the pot of gold that would fund tax cuts for the wealthy and wars of attrition (ours not theirs)? Exactly why is it that allowing the Bush tax cuts to expire is “off the table”? Same question for the expenditures on the hunt for Osama? Trillions of dollars pissed away, but unquestioned. How is greed and war sacrosanct? Especially in relationship to the health and welfare of the general populace.
There is no member of Obama’s Debt Commission that has any track record of questioning the status quo of our current budgetary system. We chose a flack and we’re getting what we deserve for not being more demanding of our representatives in the Congress. Granted that the voters have been hoodwinked once again. We chose a smooth talking operator from the central casting office for the genre. The great conciliator who starts negotiations on the right side of every issue, and I don’t mean to suggest he’s been on the correct side of any issue. It’s a game as I’ve been saying of good cop/bad cop. After eight years of the Bush Debacle we would have been right to choose Daffy Duck, but we chose words instead of deeds. We’re losers if we don’t start demanding more from the guy who promised change you can believe in. That only calls into question the nature of what we believe in.
Cedric
looks about right.
buff thanks and enjoy your weekend too.
i agree about getting SS off the plate, but I think the whole “deficit” is a put up job to put SS on the plate.
not that the deficit isn’t real, but back when REagan cut taxes and increased spending his budget director said something about makig the debt unsustainable as a way of eventually cutting government.
Jack – “Social Security is an off budget program.”
No kidding. Here’s the actual history:
1- Social Security was off-budget from 1935-1968;
2- On-budget from 1969-1985;
3- Off-budget from 1986-1990, for all purposes except computing the deficit;
4- Off-budget for all purposes since 1990.
http://www.socialsecurity.gov/history/BudgetTreatment.html
Jack – “The Trust Fund has about $3 Trillion in Treasuries.”
If you’re going to attempt to play the role of one of the blogland “experts” on Social Security, do some basic research before you mislead the AB readership with such claims. The actual data is available from the Social Security Administration.
It’s two SSA trust funds. You overstated the actual asset value of the combined OASDI trust funds by over $454 BILLION.
As of Dec 31, 2009, the combined OASDI trust funds’ asset value was $2,540,348,000. As of Feb 2010, the actual asset value of the combined trust funds was $2,545,936,000, not $3 trillion.
http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/ProgData/tsOps.html
.
Thanks for the info. I need to retract my $5 trillion guestimate too, but another question arises when I consider how I arrived at my rough guess.
I used the total USG debt number of roughly $12.5 trillion, and subtracted the “public debt” (this means publicly held or traded treasuries) number of roughly $7.5 trillion and arrived at $5 trillion. This amount they refer to as “inter-governmental debt” and usually describe it as “mostly social security and federal pensions”.
I figured that should further simplify to “mostly social security”, I then arrived at my close enough for government work estimate of nearly $5 trillion in the SS trust fund*.
But your actual reported number implies that federal pensions would be the same amount as the SS trust fund. That’s kind of hard to believe because I always thought there were more of us than them.
I think it also bears close watching when they start talking about whose “entitlements” are to be cut, or have funding enhanced.
* yes there are two SS funds. One of them is “disability”. The $2.5 trillion is the sum of the two.
MG
You continue to show yourself to add no information of any significant value to the discussion. First you simply confirm my p oint regarding the general budget status of Social Security funds. You don’t bother yourself to address the deceptive use of the concept of the unified budget which makes Social Security appear to be a factor in the budget deficit.
Then you point out an “error” in my reference to the size of the Trust Fund though my reference to that fund was only to make a general point which was not dependent on the exact amount of that Fund. The point was that the Treasury notes in the Trust Fund are equally legitimate as are those Treasury notes held by other countries.
And you fail to address the basic point that I’ve been making repeatedly (because a good point is well worth repeating, especially when you want to ignore it) which is that Social Security is not the drain on the budget. In fact Social Security funds have been supplementing the general budget for over thirty years now. It is about time our government stop enhancing the wealth of the wealthiest by distributing our Social Security funds in a way that allows a reduction of the taxes of those wealthiest Americans. It would also help if our government would stop pissing away our funds, both general tax receipts and Social Security funds, on wars of misadventure.
Address gthe real issues, MG. Stop obfuscating the budget deficit/Social Security relationship. Or, are you on the payroll of some stink tank that’s bankrolled by one of our wealthiest Americans?
Jack,
When you misstate financial information about the SSA combined trust funds, you’re not helping the readers. A $454 billion error is very misleading.
Your howling about the so-called unified budget doesn’t change the basis in law upon which the Social Security programs operate. The SSA trust funds are not included in the “unified budget”. The SSA link that I provided explains that.
Any net cash surpluses of the SSA combined trust funds do remain with the U.S. Treasury in the form of cash exchanged for purchase of non-marketable U.S. Treasury bonds. For Federal Budget purposes, any projected net cash surpluses are shown as off-budget excess positive cash flow that helps offset funding shortages elsewhere in the General Fund. But that’s not a particularly important issue at this time as there are only two fiscal years now projected to be cash surplus going forward.
Your wild-eyed claims that the SSA combined trust funds cash flow shortages are not a drain on the Federal Budget is pure BS. The Federal Government will either add deficit spending to cover the redemption of the SSA’s non-marketable Treasury bonds or discretionary spending within the General Fund will be displaced in order to stay under the Federal Government’s national debt ceiling as authorized by the Congress.
Jack,
“The point was that the Treasury notes in the Trust Fund are equally legitimate as are those Treasury notes held by other countries. “
Beware, we may be going to Mars yet!
I’ve heard some cynics claim that the non-marketable treasuries are a convenient different asset class from real treasuries making it easier for Congress to selectively default on them if push comes to shove and they need to choose between screwing retirees or Chinese, Arabs and the Primary Dealers on Wall Street.
Reference George Carlin on how it works:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJeFrqBJF6E
Not that we should get wild-eyed and hysterical over it.
MG
you have a problem. “round numbers” are not claimed to be accurate to the second decimal place. “about 3 Trillion is “close enough” for talking purposes. And do YOU really think you can tell the difference between 3 Trillion and 2 and a half trillion? even if you think you can, you can’t.
and you still can’t tell the difference between Social Security and the Congress’ excessive borrowing. Loading the “debt” on to the backs of the people who lent you the money is not only dishonest, it’s a sign of insanity.
the reason there are only two years of “projected cash surplus” is that the Trust Fund was set up to turn years of cash surplus into a source of funding for the years when there would not otherwise be enough cash. what is it about saving for a rainy day you don’t understand. except the part about putting it into a bank you can trust to pay you back and not tell you, “sorry sir, your account is no longer growing, so we can’t give you your money back.”
I don’t think that anything I’ve said so far is either wild eyed or hysterical. I’ve been repeating the same point, much to MG’s displeasure, that the budget deficit is not a Social Security program problem. Changes to the Social Security system will not resolve any deficiencies in the general budget. Only through control of the military budget and the restoration of a responsible and fair tax code can the budget deficiencies be brought under control, if that is a necessary goal.
The institution of a national sales tax is yet another form of regressive taxation that is aimed at allowing the wealthiest citizens to avoid paying their fair share of the burden of supporting the government activities that allows their wealth to remain safe and prosper. They don’t want to support their own beneficent government. Those that speak for the wealthiest are heard above the rest because of the collusion of the national media outlets, the so-called think tank industry and a crowd of economists whose personal wealth is so closely tied to their professed ideologies. We are being fed a distortion of facts when the discussion revolves around federal budgetary issues. it is little different from the distortions of the past decade in relation to the activities of the financial institutions that created the crisis of debt that we now face.
From MG:
“Your wild-eyed claims that the SSA combined trust funds cash flow shortages are not a drain on the Federal Budget is pure BS. The Federal Government will either add deficit spending to cover the redemption of the SSA’s non-marketable Treasury bonds or discretionary spending within the General Fund will be displaced in order to stay under the Federal Government’s national debt ceiling as authorized by the Congress.”
Now explain to us why you single out redemption of SSA Treasury notes as the necessary alternative? Why not focus on the elimination of waste like extrordinary militarty spending in Iraq and Afghanistan as a means of financial prudence? Why is restoration of the pre-Bush tax levels off the table in your discussion of economic stability? Why is it that only Social Security benefits are up for modification as a means to budgetary balance? The government used Trust Fund assets to make the budget balance in the face of military waste and tax preferences for the wealthy. Now its time to turn in another direction and restore sanity and balance to the Federal budget.
Now that I’ve reminded myself that we do have about $5 trillion in “inter-governmental debt”, and MG was so kind as to point out only $2.5 trillion is in SS Trust Fund(s), I’m wondering what that was all for, how was it initially funded and what will happen with the those non-marketable treasuries.
But I’ve reached my limit of mysteries to ponder for one day, and now it’s off to the muni golf course for a quick 9 holes.
It’s not Mars, and that’s why I go there.
cedric:
Easy enough request. The $2.5 trillion in the TF was funded by SS Withholding Tax Surpluses going into the General Fund and borrowed by the US Government through the issuance of non-Marketable Interest Bearing Treasury Bills and the same as Marketable Interest Bearing Treasury Bills. A default on either would have severe consequences for the US the same as paying the loans back to SS.
The issue right now is the surplus from SS Withholding Taxes is no longer a surplus and payouts do exceed actual revenue being generated but not revenue plus interest. What MG and many others would have us believe is this was where it was going anyway and we must cut benefits, increase age requirements, and do other thinge which Bruce, Arne, Coberly, Jack, and myself believe is unnecessary.
Much of the problem, I believe, can be traced back to the numbers of people not working and this goes well beyond the Unemployment Rate (for example 1 of 5 men between the ages of 25-54 are not working). I pointed this out in two posts already on this thread. I have to stress Job Creation is huge. So far so good.
So now we have less money going into the General Fund as generated by SS Withholding Tax Revenue. You can see this in the Unified budget counted as revenue. We have a double whammy going on here, deficits for today’s war effort (which in the past was always funded by special taxes) and other programs and Social Security have to draw down its TF to add to payouts to recipients. A short term problem if the economy picks up and people go back to work. It appears that politicians and the Fed are saying this is a permanent plateau of people not working. A really important question to be asking Obama, Politicians, Bernanke and many others is: “Why do they believe so many people are going to unproductive and out ot work besides . . . “What are they doing to get them back to work.”
So the pols either have to increase taxes or cut bennies. The pols are selling you snake oil and telling you they have to cut benefits rather than tax capital gains, place taxes on financial transactions, and tax higher incomes more. So that is the story.
run75441 – “What MG and many others would have us believe is this was where it was going anyway and we must cut benefits, increase age requirements, and do other thinge which Bruce, Arne, Coberly, Jack, and myself believe is unnecessary.”
Try getting your facts straight, run75441. The Social Security Administration has projected that the SSA combined trust funds would lose calendar year net cash surpluses in the near future (this decade). The SSA has projected in its reports which calendar year the loss of net cash surplus for the combined OASDI trust funds would occur. Concurrently, the Congressional Budget Office has provided projections for which fiscal year it determined would result in the loss of net cash surpluses. So, its the SSA, CBO, and the Administration via the President’s Budget that have identified the projected years during which the SSA combined OASDI trust funds will not generate net cash surpluses.
As for your second claim, I have stated that I support Coberly’s approach to increasing as necessary the employee/employer payment rates to resolve the broader funding issue with supporting the OASDI programs operated by the SSA. Moreover, I identified the use of a funding trigger as a mechanism to implement Coberly’s concept. This is recorded in the archives of the Angry Bear blog. If Bruce Webb and Arne are no longer supporting Coberly’s plan of action, that is news to me.
Stick with the facts, run75441.
run75441 – “So now we have less money going into the General Fund as generated by SS Withholding Tax Revenue. You can see this in the Unified budget counted as revenue.”
The SSA combined OASDI trust funds presently provide no excess cash flow to the U.S. Treasury (or General Fund). CBO projects that the SSA will have net cash surpluses for two years later this decade. I have posted the fiscal year breakdown of the Administration’s and CBO’s projections on that issue a couple of times. On a net basis, the Government is projected to be redeeming non-marketable bonds and certificates held by the Treasury on behalf of the SSA for all years going forward with the exception of the few years identified by the CBO, Administration, and SSA. I have every expectation that the next SSA annual report will identify net cash shortfalls for some calendar years during this decade not identified in its last annual report.
run75441 – “We have a double whammy going on here, deficits for today’s war effort (which in the past was always funded by special taxes) and other programs and Social Security have to draw down its TF to add to payouts to recipients. A short term problem if the economy picks up and people go back to work.”
The SSA, Administration (President’s Budget), nor CBO are projecting that the SSA will be operating the combined OASDI programs on a net positive cash flow basis going forward with the exception of a few years later this decade. The economic recovery will not put the SSA OASDI programs back in projected positive cash flow positions for the majority of this decade, or near-term future decades based on Government projections.
Ya, I’m up to speed on the SS Trust Fund $2.5T.
It’s the other $2.5T I started wondering about. The total USG debt is $12.5T. “public debt”, ie traded treasuries, is about $7.5T. The $5T difference is referred to as inter-governmental debt. $2.5T of it is SS Trust Fund(s). That leaves another $2.5T. They say some of that is Federal Pensions. I would hope not all or even most of it.
Before they cut our paid for stuff, I think we need to “Audit the Government”. Not sure if anyone in Congress, Treasury, or Federal Reserve is up to the task.
As far as the annual budget goes, I always see those pie charts where they make SS, Medicare and Medicaid look like really big slices of pie, and everything tiny by comparison.
I think we should make a new pie without SS since it is fully funded from FICA flows, at least at the moment. Then we would get the rest in proper proportion.
Yes, employment is a problem. Don’t see us getting back to bubble levels anytime soon. That caused the surplus to disappear just recently instead of 2016-2017 as projected.
If I can find an economist anywhere, I would like to know why stimulus programs, federal deficits and ZIRP are good for a recessionary economy, but mom&dad or grandma&grandpa spending money is bad? If the fact that the SS trust fund runs out in 2040 is why something needs to be done today, I think employment would still take precedence. Otherwise the kids, mom and dad, grandma and grandpa will all be living in the same house, and we won’t even know for sure which of the three generations has a job. Not cool. Too Japanese for my taste.
I recommend everyone retire at 55 and don’t be a part of the problem!
MG:
I have it correct and you still have not addressed the issue of the millions of people out of work who would be adding to the SS Withholding Tax Revenues and Federal Taxes for that matter. The projections for revenue surplus are based upon the numbers of people working. From the 25-54 year old male group we can eliminate 20% of them as either Unemployed or Not In Labor Force with a projected high unemployment rate going well into the future. Furthermore we can project higher unemployment for the 16-19 year olds which will impact tax revenues also. This has been going on since 2001 and most mainstream economists have failed to recognized it as a new plateau.
The issue is job creation and building Participation Rate back to 66.7% (which occurred at the end of the 2001 recession). With a 9.7% Unemployment Rate and a participation Rate of 66.7%; the issue would be improved drastically. Job Creation and tax revenues would solve the issue. You are blowin smoke.
You are reiterating what many of us already know without providing the reasons why this is happening.
Cedric:
You are talking to a bunch of us.
Ya, I’m up to speed on the SS Trust Fund $2.5T.
It’s the other $2.5T I started wondering about. The total USG debt is $12.5T. “public debt”, ie traded treasuries, is about $7.5T. The $5T difference is referred to as inter-governmental debt. $2.5T of it is SS Trust Fund(s). That leaves another $2.5T. They say some of that is Federal Pensions. I would hope not all or even most of it.
Before they cut our paid for stuff, I think we need to “Audit the Government”. Not sure if anyone in Congress, Treasury, or Federal Reserve is up to the task.
As far as the annual budget goes, I always see those pie charts where they make SS, Medicare and Medicaid look like really big slices of pie, and everything else tiny by comparison.
I think we should make a new pie without SS since it is fully funded from FICA flows, at least at the moment. Then we would get the rest in proper proportion.
Yes, employment is a problem. Don’t see us getting back to bubble levels anytime soon. That caused the surplus to disappear just recently instead of 2016-2017 as projected.
If I can find an economist anywhere, I would like to know why stimulus programs, federal deficits and ZIRP are good for a recessionary economy, but mom&dad or grandma&grandpa spending money is bad? If the fact that the SS trust fund runs out in 2040 is why something needs to be done today, I think employment would still take precedence. Otherwise the kids, mom and dad, grandma and grandpa will all be living in the same house, and we won’t even know for sure which of the three generations has a job. Not cool. Too Japanese for my taste.
I recommend everyone retire at 55 and don’t be a part of the problem!
Cedric Regula – “Ya, I’m up to speed on the SS Trust Fund $2.5T. It’s the other $2.5T I started wondering about. The total USG debt is $12.5T. “public debt”, ie traded treasuries, is about $7.5T. The $5T difference is referred to as inter-governmental debt. $2.5T of it is SS Trust Fund(s). That leaves another $2.5T. They say some of that is Federal Pensions. I would hope not all or even most of it.”
Cedric,
The U.S. Department of Treasury has the answer to your question.
Here’s an updated record on all U.S. intragovernmental debt broken down by agency/department source:
MONTHLY STATEMENT OF THE PUBLIC DEBT
OF THE UNITED STATES
JANUARY 31, 2010
http://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/pd/mspd/2010/opdm012010.pdf
*Scroll down to page 8 to locate the beginning of the listing for Government Account Series – Intragovernmental Holdings. The listing runs through page 11.
It’s quite a list.
——–
Here’s how you locate that info without knowing specifically where it is (for future reference):
Visit the Government’s website, TreasuryDirect.
http://www.treasurydirect.gov/
* Click on “View the Monthly Statement of the Public Debt” (fastest way)
or
Click on “Check the FAQs on the Debt”
http://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/resources/faq/faq_publicdebt.htm
*See “Makeup of the Debt” – click on the Monthly Statement of the Public Debt (MSPD)
http://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/pd/mspd/mspd.htm
*Click on the latest month listed under “Current Year xxxx”
http://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/pd/mspd/2010/2010_jan.htm
*Click on Entire MSPD (I prefer the Adobe Acrobat (.pdf) version for this purpose)
http://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/pd/mspd/2010/opdm012010.pdf
*Enjoy the read.
.
Cedric Regula – “Ya, I’m up to speed on the SS Trust Fund $2.5T. It’s the other $2.5T I started wondering about. The total USG debt is $12.5T. “public debt”, ie traded treasuries, is about $7.5T. The $5T difference is referred to as inter-governmental debt. $2.5T of it is SS Trust Fund(s). That leaves another $2.5T. They say some of that is Federal Pensions. I would hope not all or even most of it.”
Cedric,
The U.S. Department of Treasury has the answer to your question.
Here’s an updated record on all U.S. intragovernmental debt broken down by agency/department source:
MONTHLY STATEMENT OF THE PUBLIC DEBT
OF THE UNITED STATES
JANUARY 31, 2010
http://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/pd/mspd/2010/opdm012010.pdf
*Scroll down to page 8 to locate the beginning of the listing for Government Account Series – Intragovernmental Holdings. The listing runs through page 11.
It’s quite a list.
——–
Here’s how you locate that info without knowing specifically where it is (for future reference):
Visit the Government’s website, TreasuryDirect.
http://www.treasurydirect.gov/
* Click on “View the Monthly Statement of the Public Debt” (fastest way)
or
Click on “Check the FAQs on the Debt”
http://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/resources/faq/faq_publicdebt.htm
*See “Makeup of the Debt” – click on the Monthly Statement of the Public Debt (MSPD)
http://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/pd/mspd/mspd.htm
*Click on the latest month listed under “Current Year xxxx”
http://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/pd/mspd/2010/2010_jan.htm
*Click on Entire MSPD (I prefer the Adobe Acrobat (.pdf) version for this purpose)
http://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/pd/mspd/2010/opdm012010.pdf
*Enjoy the read.
.
run75441 – “I have it correct and you still have not addressed the issue of the millions of people out of work who would be adding to the SS Withholding Tax Revenues and Federal Taxes for that matter.”
You don’t have it correct because you haven’t taken your thinking or research far enough. You’re implying that you know more than the Administration, CBO, and SSA. The Administration and CBO have already run their projections through models based on fairly optimistic employment growth assumptions. The U.S. will be fortunate if their projections are met.
run75441 – “The projections for revenue surplus are based upon the numbers of people working.”
You’re conveniently leaving out the other side of the equation – SSA outlays. Have you bothered to review the SSA demographic projections for growth in number of beneficiaries for OASI and DI?
run75441 – “With a 9.7% Unemployment Rate and a participation Rate of 66.7%; the issue would be improved drastically. Job Creation and tax revenues would solve the issue. You are blowin smoke.”
I’m citing the Administration’s and CBO’s projections. Their modeling analysis is not pie in the sky dreaming like you’re presenting.
run75441 – “You are reiterating what many of us already know without providing the reasons why this is happening.”
I am citing Administration, CBO, and SSA source information. If you have a better source with supporting data, provide it.
You don’t bother to mention that U.S. trade policy currently in place will not spur any major growth in employment above and beyond moderate growth in the near term or noted prior to the recession. The U.S. will be fortunate to recovery the majority of those lost jobs, and I don’t believe it will happen in the near term. Similarly, the commercial and residential construction industries aren’t going to serve as the recovery platform for exiting this recession. The automobile industry will not magically increase employment, and, besides, that industry is still offshoring at the subassembly, component, and part sourcing levels. So, that leaves government employment at all levels, the service industry, and professional employment. The U.S. will not be able to count on government employment gains at the local, county, and state levels to serve as a major recovery platform. The U.S. will most likely face a jobless recovery for a multitude of reasons, some of which I have listed.
And you have the gall to say that you have it correct.
MG,
Ok, thanks. You guys know where everything is. More links for my favorites list.
MG:
I do have the gall to say it is correct when people like Laurent Guerby and myself having been talking about and studying Particpation Rate (the number that really matters in the BLS stats) for almost a decade now. Simply speaking most economists on this board and other boards ignored it as being significant and not a potentially dangerous new plateau for that part of the Civilian Non-Institutional Population within the Civilian Labor Force. The return to a 66.7% Rate would place ~ 6 million people back into the Civilian Labor Force generating Tax Revenues. You can do that in several ways; increase Unemployment which will add to the Civilian Labor Force, create the government as the ELR, or create private sector jobs. Labor is a resource with a capacity to produce. Letting it sit idle is just as wasteful as underutilizing a facility.
Capital without Labor adds no value as no product or service is created. If, if Productivity Gains for Labor continue to erode as Spencer points out here: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Zh1bveXc8rA/SuddUhLWUaI/AAAAAAAAA7M/iU2gefk317M/s1600-h/Clipboard01.jpg as taken from here: http://www.angrybearblog.com/2009/10/labors-share.html “Labor’s Share.” The solution is simple, tax capital more heavily to sustain the economy. Why would one do such? 40% of all corporate profits pre-2008 went to Financial Services having grown from 10% in the eighties. From 1990 to 2006, finacial services has grown from being 23% to 31% of GDP. These are significant increases for which a large part escapes taxation in the same manner as manufacturing or is lightly taxed. http://www.bis.org/img/speeches/sp081119_g3.gif as taken from here: http://www.bis.org/speeches/sp081119.htm “How Might the Current Financial Crisis Shape . . “
The administration, CBO, and SS has planned current receipts and outlays based upon present day activities and projections on “current” policy. There has been no massive policy put in place to increase job creation or get more people back to work which would increase tax revenues. There has been unemployment compensation extensions all the way out to Tier 4 which sustains people while they look for work; but, this is only 1/2 of the necessary policy. While unemployment compensation will increase the Civilian Labor Force (they are counted in), it will not keep people there and we are backing ourselves into a corner by not concentrating on Job Creation which will maintain the numbers of people in the Civilian Labor Force. This is what I said in my earlier post that job creation will in fact grow tax revenues and resolve the issue of Outlays being greater than Revenues.
If job creation is addressed in a significant manner, you will see revenues again supercede outlays as Bruce and coberly point out continuously the time line for outlays actually exceeding revenues will go back out to the future. The argument for cutting benefits through any number of actions is a flawed one as it does not address job creation the same as extended unemployment benefits doesn’t either. In effect it is a race to the bottom as more people become unemployed, the need to cut benefits will rise again. It is convenient to address SS as the problem today and hide what Congress and two administrations have not addressed . . . job creation. I will also point out that one reason SS revenue remained stable out in the future was the result of productivity gains which negates the impact of worker to retiree […]
continued:
Yes, yes US Trade policy has been an issue for Labor. It is interesting how other countries have sign WTO contracts and wrote into them certain exempts for Labor as Canada has done. Der Spiegel does a nice job of detailing that loss here: http://www.spiegel.de/international/business/0,1518,grossbild-1062396-527289,00.html ~4 million jobs lost between 1996 and 2007? So what is the balance here MG? Are the prices really cheaper when we do not factor into the equation the hidden costs of massive imports when it impacts jobs, the bennies tied to jobs, and the taxes that support the infrastructure? There is talk of a VAT. Why not tax products coming in from overseas to replace what was lost in the first place? However this is a different topic and not germane to the issue at hand.
Are you sure we can not create more jobs rather than recoup those already lost? I tend to think we can and that is one of the basic premises used by economists. Globalization and the movement of Labor intensive jobs will result in higher wages and imports will create more jobs domestically. We have been in a job recession since the end of 2001 with little input to create more jobs other than cut taxes which has little if any impact to job creation.
Enough said for now.
MG:
Rather than assign him a reading list, why not explain it to him?
At least Bruce, Coberly, KHarris, others, and myself are conversational on the topics we discuss and use charts and graphs in support of what we say. It would be nice to see such coming from you.
run,
What you ask of MG is not unreasonable, but it is not on MG’s agenda to explain his positions or the meaning of his long lists of numbers. Numbers can elucidate and those same numbers can confound an argument. Bury the logic in a long list of numbers, but don’t relate the numbes to a conclusion. It’s similar to any strawman argument. The numbers aren’t being used to support a position. In MG’s case the long lists of numbers serve only to confound the discussion and distract attention from a logical conclusion. In this case, Social Security is solvent, but the over-all budget is gushing red ink. He doesn’t even make it clear how it is that Social Security funding should be tampered with as a resolution to the bloody state of the general budget. Notice that MG never makes any reference to military spending in Iraq and Afghanistan nor the losses in revenue by income sectors resulting from the Bush tax cuts. Those are two major sources of budgetary solvency that MG assiduously avoids discussing. Good government seems to be off of his table.
run75441,
If you knew who Cedric was and what his primary interests were, you would understand why I only directed him to the master list. He only has to click on one link and scroll down to page 8 to begin reviewing the list which runs through page 11.
Cedric now has the source for the information. He can follow the changes month by month if he so desires.
I noticed that you and Jack among others didn’t help Cedric find the information that he sought. Yet, you want to complain when someone provides the source link for the master list. And then you pretend that it can be easily turned into a conversational piece that would really serve no purpose. Cedric has what he needs, and that is all that mattered.
Jack,
You’re making a bunch of phony claims. As usual.
My positions on the Social Security programs, the Federal Budget, deficit spending, national debt, and the wars have been stated. You have failed to remember the statements and when I provided them. I see no purpose in repeating them just to satisfy a phony loyalty game that you are attempting to throw out on the blog.
I have made note a few times that no main poster at Angry Bear has undertaken any effort to discuss the President’s FY2011 budget proposal. Absent that effort, throwing out the standard political talking points about spending on the wars or Federal taxation are lame efforts to skip the overall budgetary issues facing the U.S. Government. Anyone who has studied the President’s budget proposal could have learned that DoD spending is projected to decline as a percentage of GDP over the next ten years, and we’re still waiting to see if Congress and the Administration will simply let the Bush II era tax cuts simply expire.
If you want to discuss the Federal budget with any seriousness, you or run75441 could provide Dan with a guest post like you do on other issues. At that time, the readers will be provided an opportunity to discuss the full range of budget issues, and they will afforded an opportunity to see how much you do and don’t know about the Federal budget process as well as the President’s and CBO’s projections associated with the FY2011 proposed budget.
A comment reader who doesn’t jump up and play the cheerleading game whenever you post information isn’t necessarily disagreeing with you. That’s a lesson you apparently haven’t learned thus far. Moreover, after you or someone else posts the same old stuff a number of times, the effectiveness is lost. Meanwhile, if you want to play the role of political hack, have at it. But don’t think others have to join in. That’s their choice, not yours.
Your little league tag team gang attacks on other comment posters is a pure waste of time.
Frankly I’m no longer interested in any list of numbers that are described as economic data related to the federal government’s budgetary plans or proposals. The facts are well enough established. There remain theoretical questions regarding the effect of budget deficits, but little else is in dispute. All other considerations are strictly ideological.
It is well known that the general budget is running an enormous deficit presently and in its proposals for the next fiscal year. While some would have it otherwise, it is clearly establilshed by law that the several budget sub-categories are not to be regarded as unified for the purpose of distorting the dificiencies therein. One category, Social Security funding and expenditures cannot be used to reduce the deficit amount of the general budget other than the accounting for interest paid to the Trust Fund, which is not to be regarded as interest income by the general budget. That would be a Federal use of a repo accounting scam. Also well understood is that the expenditures on the military in Iraq and Afghanistan are a massive drain on the Treasury’s financial resources. It is also well established that the Tax cuts legislated in 2004 massively and disproportionately favored the very wealthy and reduced Treasury income dramatically.
So why is it so difficult to come to some consensus regarding the corrections required to reduce, if not balance, the nation’s budget? Social Security isn’t the problem. That program has been used for decades to cover up the problems. As some so blandly put it, discretionary spending has to be brought under control. The question is only whose discretion is to be used. Call, write, email, or fax to your elected congressional representatives. Let them know clearly where you stand in regards to where the cuts need to be made and how the tax codes need to be brought back to a proper balance. Don’t let them claim to be doing the best for the country when in fact they may be more inclined to do the best they can for their wealthiest financial supporters while wrapping themselves in the flag in a phony display of patriotism. Sending troopps to kill and be killed for no good reason, as has also been well established in the minds of reasonable thinkers, is the antithesis of patriotism and good government.
Jack – “Frankly I’m no longer interested in any list of numbers that are described as economic data related to the federal government’s budgetary plans or proposals. The facts are well enough established. There remain theoretical questions regarding the effect of budget deficits, but little else is in dispute. All other considerations are strictly ideological.”
Nonsense. Not that it matters, but you haven’t demonstrated that you have a good grasp on the outyear projections outlined in the President’s budget or CBO’s analysis of such. You’re only focused on a couple of things in the Federal budget.
Jack – “So why is it so difficult to come to some consensus regarding the corrections required to reduce, if not balance, the nation’s budget?”
The FY 2011 Federal budget has not been presented in a concise main post at this econ blog.
The failure of the main posters to address the President’s FY 2011 budget is a good starting point for understanding why there may or may not be a blog consensus about (1) managing the Federal budget in a way that is sustainable, (2) evaluating the real impacts of the large budget deficits projected through FY2020, and (3) understanding that interest payments on the Federal marketable securities will increase at a substantial rate, thereby forcing larger deficit expenditures and/or reductions in discretionary spending.
Obviously, you have no apparent interest in presenting or discussing a main post about the President’s budget based on your comments above. It’s telling if you think that the Federal budget will be balanced anytime in the near future. We’re a long way from achieving that end without major changes that will have to go far beyond cutting national defense expenditures.
Jack – “As some so blandly put it, discretionary spending has to be brought under control.”
If you understood the President’s budget, it should be obvious that discretionary spending increases are not the driver of future projected problems with the Federal budget. Moreover, national defense expenditures as a percentage of GDP are projected to decrease in the outyears.
Discretionary spending by and large is under control. In fact, other than national defense expenditures (domestic and international initiatives), discretionary spending is the weak component of the Federal budget and has been for well over a decade.
If you think that “discretionary spending has to be brought under control”, and that’s the magic bullet for solving the national debt problems, then you’re very confused about what will drive Federal budget expenditure growth in the future.
Those budget numbers that you condemn and hate to review (as indicated in your remarks) are the key to any worthwhile discussion about this broad subject. A failure to understand which components of the Federal budget are creating various impacts in the outyears can easily lead to not understanding the problem with the budget big picture.
Budget presentations and discussions aren’t for faint of heart.
MG,
We are talking at cross purposes. You are obviously well informed in regards to budgetary issues, but you don your professorial robes and talk endlessly in generalities and seem more than willing to overlook the fact that political ideology will be a more potent driving force in any final determination of budget structure. Different financial and political interests will, as you have so astutely done, pull out long lists of numbers. There will be prolonged and tireless, but tiring, arguments about economic projections and the need to remain fiscally responsible. There will be endless squabbling over the value of spending on this program or that system. There will be great reliance upon the wisdom of the professors of economics and little attention paid to the quality of our society.
So much for intellectual masturbation. For that is what good all of that “scientific” and professional discussion will accomplish. This country will still be pouring its resources into the arid sands of deserts around the world. A very small sector of our wealthiest citizens will continue to enjoy the favored status that they have held for many decades now. Your brilliance at accounting for so many spent dollars will be lost on a generation of Americans that will find themselves falling further and further into a hole of economic despair. Look carefully at our last twenty years of careful budgetary debates from one administration into another. Look then at where we are as a nation. I hope you enjoy playing with the lists of numbers which you so carefully enumerate, but in fact it is a great waste of time and band width. As the man once said, a great deal of sound and fury signifying nothing.
Jack,
The Federal budget problems will be addressed. The overall review will include a review of all entities of the Federal Government including justifications for retention and ROI. When one testifies before a Congressional appropriations or budget committee, it is important to justify the Federal expenditure of monies that you are seeking or defending. So, the various budget reviews will involve sufficient reviews to determine the need for the program if such isn’t obvious and a review of the financing sources for the program or program element.
There is no question in my mind that the mandatory programs will be reviewed by the commission and the Congress. The Congress will also go through the revenue streams analysis and discretionary spending outlay projections.
I have no idea what the Congress will decide to do. But the decisions will be important. No doubt.
You can scoff at any presentation of numbers. Your attitude is not unusual. But it’s not realistic in my judgment. The mandatory programs are capturing attention because of the projected impacts on the U.S. Department of Treasury, General Fund, and the Congressional processes involved in reviewing and producing a final Federal budget that will be voted on for each fiscal year.
The Federal budget problems beyond FY 2020 are staggering, and the majority of the outlay growth which must be funded by Treasury falls to supporting the legally mandated obligations support for the mandatory spending programs.
A realistic study of the Federal budget proposed by President Obama could set the stage for recommending the termination of some discretionary spending programs or elements of such, a full array of tax recommendations (not just tax the top 1% or 5% of income earners), and very minimum adjustments if any to the existing mandatory spending programs. A ten or twenty point outline of such proposed actions could be subsequently provided as a main post, and it might draw attention across the blogland and among some media outlets. But the Angry Bear main posters including those who have elected to become guest posters don’t have that level of interest regarding the Federal budget or apparent desire to be that effective in countering undesirable outcomes derived directly from budget analysis as will be performed by those seeking to bring about change, including apparent harm to some of the existing mandatory programs and recepients, now or in the future.
I’ve reviewed many of the organizations that support different Federal mandatory programs. The healthcare groups have a few strong players which understand the value of the internet and media communications. The national Social Security groups aren’t nearly as strong in those respects as I think they should be. I see no large rallying base out in blogland backing them up nor do I see a successful national effort to seek a popular base of support in this time of need.
Angry Bear has sufficient recognition that it could stir interest in challenging those who will be attacking the mandatory programs. It’s just not hard to contact the media, issue press releases, and pop up on radio and television shots. But the main posters need to go after the specifics of the Federal budget and proposed plans related to budget expenditures in order to provide a broad foundation for supporting any ten or twenty point outline presented to the news media or other groups. And the outline needs to be backed up with more than the single focus on one Social Security program.
Angry Bear main posters appear to lack the level of interest necessary to improve this blog sufficiently in order for the […]
MG,
You describe the budget process as it is written in texts. It is well scripted noting the convening of panels with so many wise men and women of professional standing all contributing the benefit of their knowledge derived from studying the numbers so carefully. Your perspective is one that looks ahead at the process as it is thought to occur and as is often described on the more serious media forums for the benefit of public consumption. How could the eventual decisions not be the best approach even if they prescribe a bitter pill of sacrifice in the name of economic sanity? The nation’s financial integrity will be saved though at a significant cost to its citizens, though if history teaches us anything we know it won’t be all of those citizens who bear the brunt of that cost.
It is not that your description of the process is a fantacy. It is the expectation that the process that you describe will result in a well thought out and balanced solution that is the fiction. It is, and always has been, a process driven by political considerations with the benefit of a few taking precedence over the welfare of the many. Your adherence to this story line and your ability to describe the budget process as it is played, as though on a stage, suggests that you in some manner have a role in that process. Or, possibly you simply study the process and have some vested interest in maintaining the image of that process as a professional series of events leading up to a grand and eloquent conclusion. You suggest that such conclusions will be rational and determined by some best interest of all scenario. I can think of nothing that could be further from the truth, and at least I have the historical record to provide the evidence for that conclusion. As noted earlier, look where we are as a nation at this very moment. This moment has too been preceded by so many forums of wise and professional analysis. Numbers were studied and discussed as you suggest that they will be again. And all that wisdom has brought us to this unexpected place, but a place predetermined by the greed and short sighted nature that such wise and professional analysis is wont to steer us to. Take a better look at the process and keep in mind the history of our national economic decision making before you chide the postings on Angry Bear as though they were short sighted. It is more likely the myopic student of human behavior who sees his own critics as having the short view.
Jack – “Your adherence to this story line and your ability to describe the budget process as it is played, as though on a stage, suggests that you in some manner have a role in that process. Or, possibly you simply study the process and have some vested interest in maintaining the image of that process as a professional series of events leading up to a grand and eloquent conclusion. You suggest that such conclusions will be rational and determined by some best interest of all scenario.”
The Congress will likely score many of its key decisions to significantly modify certain provisions of the Federal budget, eliminate/reduce discretionary programs, or make any changes to mandatory programs. Not necessarily all, but the big ones are likely to be scored by JCT and CBO. Standard practice these days.
I do not represent any organization or group at this time that has any funding needs or Federal program support desires before the Congress or Administration. Is that clear enough for you?
The Congress is faced with a series of serious Federal budget and program decisions that will capture major news media and political organizations’ attention. Some of the final actions associated with those decisions will not escape public review if a 48 or 72 hour posting of legislation prior to final vote is utilized by the Houses of the Congress.
There has been no attempt whatsoever to discuss and analyze the President’s budget on this blog. Zip. You’re busy making excuses and trying to defend something that simply never occurred to this date.
Your political commentary is wasted on me as I’m an Independent voter. I don’t engage the useless endoctrination games that you throw out on AB. None of that junk is going to stick. You’re just talking to yourself when you kick with the politics and ideology that you support.
MG:
“I do not represent any organization or group at this time that has any funding needs or Federal program support desires before the Congress or Administration. Is that clear enough for you?”
Jack:
That was not my assumption, that you did. It seemed more likely to be some academic interest, or maybe even as an employee of some government office.
MG:
“The Congress will likely score many of its key decisions to significantly modify certain provisions of the Federal budget, eliminate/reduce discretionary programs, or make any changes to mandatory programs. Not necessarily all, but the big ones are likely to be scored by JCT and CBO. Standard practice these days.”
Jack:
There’s that affectation with numbers again. Of course all parties to the to the act have their roles to play. It will all be very antiseptically clean, very quasi-scientific. That way the public will be assured that only the necessary cuts will be made to the most unncessary budget items. That way the politicians and the lobbyists will keep political considerations out of such significant decisions. No politics are ever involved when it comes to budget policy. I repeat, that’s why the country and the budget are in such sorry shape. Because only the most objective considerations have b een brought to bear on what is almost always a politically charged issue.
MG:
“There has been no attempt whatsoever to discuss and analyze the President’s budget on this blog. Zip. You’re busy making excuses and trying to defend something that simply never occurred to this date.”
Jack:
You must be reading some alternative blog because amost every comment that I havwe made, and so too many others, has had to do with the one key item related to the budget which so many “experts” seem all too willing slash to death after all the scientific analysis is completed. That being the Social Security program. There have been additional comments made regarding the military expenses of the past two decades, and so too there has been a great deal of attention paid to the issue of revenue loss through the Bush administration’s significant tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans. I guess such discussions are not related to the budget, the President’s proposal or any other, if they are not couched in the terms that you designate as appropriate. There are no long lists of numbers. We all are well aware of where the money is being squandered and from where the sacrifices are intended to come.
Play with your numbers and focus your attention on all of those serious studies, analysis and committee proposals. They will have little effect on the outcome which is more likely to be determined by key politicians and their key financial supporters and the lobbyists that connect the two. But no, the budget process as it occurs in the Congress is not encumbered by political considerations. I’m almost sure that your right on that score, but I can’t find the numbers to do the math.
Jack,
1. You keep trying to dig with me regarding employment. It’s simple. I do not work for or have any contracts with any government, local to national, or any universities or educational institutions. And I do not represent any organization or group at this time that has any funding needs or Federal program support desires before the Congress or Administration. I am not scheduled to provide any testimony before the Congress to my knowledge nor do I have any burning interest in doing so for the foreseeable future. Been there, done that. Moved on.
2. There have been no main posts at Angry Bear that have discussed the President’s FY 2011 budget submission or CBO’s analysis of such. Period. What is buried down in Dan’s comment threads is minor, as there is no main page focus or recognition of comments that focused specifically on the President’s FY 2011 budget or CBO’s analysis of such. I made it very clear in my previous remarks that I was referring to the absence of main posts regarding the President’s FY 2011 budget, including some directed to your attention. I even suggested that you or run 75441 should give consideration to drafting a main post on the President’s budget. So, it’s clear where I focused the attention – main posts.
3. Your personal contention that “We all are well aware of where the money is being squandered and from where the sacrifices are intended to come.” is nonsense in my judgment. It would be difficult to make that assumption absent a review of the President’s FY2011 budget including its ten year projections, considering what the Administration has proposed by department and agency. You remind of a guy who looks at the cover of a book and thinks that he knows the details in the book. Rather laughable. I doubt very seriously that many readers of Angry Bear are familiar with many department or agency level projected funding details of the President’s budget. I also believe that the same can be said regarding projected general revenue and outlay streams. I don’t believe that the typical comments found in the threads show much knowledge of what is really in the President’s FY 2011 budget including the ten year projections. It’s pretty obvious, frankly.
4. The Social Security main post discussions during 2009 and 2010 have failed repeatedly to acknowledge that the SSA OASDI combined trust funds were not and are not producing a positive cash flow, which impacts directly on Treasury’s need to borrow additional funds in other to satisfy overall government funding needs. Relying on the 2009 SSA annual report’s financial projections would be a significant mistake. That report was useless four months after it was released if one was attempting to determine the projected cash flows for the OASDI combined trust funds. The only main post that addressed that problem was an article that you posted as a main post recently.
5. I only have one question for you. Do you mind sharing with me what state you live in, and major city you live near?
MG,
It’s not the nature of your employment that was the focus of my speculation, but more so the source of your conceptualization of the budget issue. Hence my reference to a “professorial” style in your comments. An almost zealous focus on data collection and numeration of the issue along with an apparent assumption that issues will be, and need be, quantified further and analysed in an honest forum. Obviously I disagree with that perspective. I find it naive and I base that opinion on the history of this issue over the past three decades.
How it is that you can discount the obvious and greatest drain on the national budget is unfathomable to me. Does every last dollar spent on two prolonged military engagements have to be counted in order to understand its effect upon our economy? Are the results of the Bush tax cuts really still a mystery? In effect, if we witness a house in flames and burning to the ground it is not necessary to locate the matches that started the fire before hooking up the hoses. The details of the budget proposal need not be enumerated in order to understand that there are outstanding causes to the drain on the Treasury. Eliminate the obvious waste and ask those that have enjoyed a disproportionate holiday from taxation first. Then the budget crisis can be minutely re-examined for further treatment.
That’s NYC, NY. I’ll be at the Vanguard next week for Geri Allen and a fine and edgy quartet.
Jack,
I think it’s good that you’re not designing jet airliners. They would crash.
The Government is not unlike running a business from a financial or customer services perspective. If the books are lousy, everything gets screwed up. Good programs vanish as well as bad ones and other programs are crippled.
Your view that I have no serious opinion on the various military campaigns underway around the world (there are more than two being conducted by the USA) or the Bush II era tax cuts passed by Congress is simply wrong. That I do not stand on a soapbox and preach about it every day on a blog doesn’t mean that I have ignored those situations in the past or present day. Tell me which of those situations we can, as individuals, change in the morning? What will happen, though, is that the tax cuts will be changed or eliminated, and the two wars you’re concerned about will come to an end. The budget bleeding from those situations is temporary, though we see it as damaging to the national economy. Well, either way, those situations are among the most temporary major elements of the Federal budget. Neither will be major focus issues by FY 2018-2020. We’ll be complaining about something else by then.
Your focuses are limited in my opinion. That’s your choice. Still, the budget problems go beyond DoD, HS, and other elements tied to national defense spending. Same for the tax cuts that remain in place as of now. The forward view of the Federal budget mess is bigger than most can imagine, certainly bigger than will be fixed by cutting DoD down to 3% or lower of GDP and letting the Bush II era tax cuts expire. That’s just not going to provide enough spending reduction and inbound revenue. That’s what the budget analysis explains if performed thoroughly.
I am focused on the whole picture, not just a few pieces of it. That’s my choice. It’s not going to change.
You might want to read this and listen to the interview. Yeah, he has numbers, too, but note what he is saying. Not good…
Jim Grant’s prospectus document
http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/US%20Prospectus.pdf
Jim Grant’s interview
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JiwmBpzLXUE
.
Geri Allen is cool…
“I think it’s good that you’re not designing jet airliners. They would crash.”
Note that I have avoided characterizing your commentary in any personal way beyond the reference to your being naive. Your aggressive rejection of my argument implies the weakness inherent within your criticism. I did not express the view that you have no serious opinion in regards to military waste nor the Bush tax cuts. I have repeatedly pointed out that you have not addressed those discrete issues directly, but instead have relied upon focusing your argument on the need for genral budget review. You’ve gone so far as to state that none of the posters on AB have bothered to address the Obama budget proposal. As previously noted, yours is a grossly inaccurately portrayal of the content of the comments that have appeared on thhis blog over a long period of time up to the most present moment. Granted that the focus has been more specifically directed at the misinformation being disseminated regarding the funding of Social Security in relationship to the general budget, but that reasoning has been well supported by Webb, Coberly, Buffpilot, and others. Your focus on the general issues of cudget deficiency occurs within that more refined debate almost as though it were intended to obscure the seriousness of that more discrete issue.
“Tell me which of those situations (War spending and Bush tax cuts) we can, as individuals, change in the morning? What will happen, though, is that the tax cuts will be changed or eliminated, and the two wars you’re concerned about will come to an end. The budget bleeding from those situations is temporary, though we see it as damaging to the national economy. Well, either way, those situations are among the most temporary major elements of the Federal budget. Neither will be major focus issues by FY 2018-2020. We’ll be complaining about something else by then.”
That is one incredible statement. We can’t change things by the morning so we should give up trying to do so? Eventually those elements of the budget deficiencies (to say nothing of the moral issues involved) will pass away without our focus of attention? Multi-trillion dollar waste is only a temporary issue? So by 2018 all will be well inspite of our having ignored the greatest river of red ink and blood letting to have occured in several decades. We’re in the place we have come to because we have been driven there by those “temporary” budget phenomenon. We can’t wait another ten years hoping that they will “come to an end” with little attention from the citizen population. Those with designs on the Social Security program, where this discussion first began, will have us all poorly employed to age 70, 75, maybe 80. That’s the issue. Rivlin and her cohorts will have little difficulty raiding the Funds if we rely on your reasoning and approach to the problem.
Jack – “Your aggressive rejection of my argument implies the weakness inherent within your criticism. I did not express the view that you have no serious opinion in regards to military waste nor the Bush tax cuts. I have repeatedly pointed out that you have not addressed those discrete issues directly, but instead have relied upon focusing your argument on the need for genral budget review.”
Two days ago, I explained this to you:
2 days ago, 12:49:01 AM – “My positions on the Social Security programs, the Federal Budget, deficit spending, national debt, and the wars have been stated. You have failed to remember the statements and when I provided them. I see no purpose in repeating them just to satisfy a phony loyalty game that you are attempting to throw out on the blog.”
I own you nor anyone else any answers on anything. The fact is that I have discussed those matters. Rehashing old issues is not something that I waste time on. Of course, I moved on the President’s FY 2011 budget and CBO’s analysis of such as that’s a current issue drawing considerable national attention, will be subject to discussion by the commission, and will be a primary focus of attention by the U.S. Congress this year.
Jack – “You’ve gone so far as to state that none of the posters on AB have bothered to address the Obama budget proposal. As previously noted, yours is a grossly inaccurately portrayal of the content of the comments that have appeared on thhis blog over a long period of time up to the most present moment.”
Don’t try to misrepresent what I have stated and clarified on the matter of the President’s FY 2011 budget. There has been no main post presentation of the President’s FY 2011 budget.
Two days ago, I explained this to you:
2 days ago, 12:49:01 AM – “I have made note a few times that no main poster at Angry Bear has undertaken any effort to discuss the President’s FY2011 budget proposal.”
“If you want to discuss the Federal budget with any seriousness, you or run75441 could provide Dan with a guest post like you do on other issues. At that time, the readers will be provided an opportunity to discuss the full range of budget issues, and they will afforded an opportunity to see how much you do and don’t know about the Federal budget process as well as the President’s and CBO’s projections associated with the FY2011 proposed budget.”
Yesterday, I explained this to you:
Yesterday, 1:49:12 AM – “The FY 2011 Federal budget has not been presented in a concise main post at this econ blog. The failure of the main posters to address the President’s FY 2011 budget is a good starting point for understanding why there may or may not be a blog consensus about (1) managing the Federal budget in a way that is sustainable, (2) evaluating the real impacts of the large budget deficits projected through FY2020, and (3) understanding that interest payments on the Federal marketable securities will increase at a substantial rate, thereby forcing larger deficit expenditures and/or reductions in discretionary spending.”
“Obviously, you have no apparent interest in presenting or discussing a main post about the President’s budget based on your comments above. It’s telling if you think that the Federal budget will be balanced anytime in the near future. We’re a long way from achieving that end without major changes that will have to go far beyond cutting national defense expenditures.”
Yesterday, 9:49:09 PM – “2. There have been no main posts at Angry Bear that have discussed the President’s FY 2011 budget submission or CBO’s analysis of such. Period. What is buried down in Dan’s comment threads is minor, as there is no main page focus or recognition of comments that focused specifically on the President’s FY 2011 budget or CBO’s analysis of such. I made it very clear in my previous remarks that I was referring to the absence of main posts regarding the President’s FY 2011 budget, including some directed to your attention. I even suggested that you or run 75441 should give consideration to drafting a main post on the President’s budget. So, it’s clear where I focused the attention – main posts.”
Jack – “Granted that the focus has been more specifically directed at the misinformation being disseminated regarding the funding of Social Security in relationship to the general budget, but that reasoning has been well supported by Webb, Coberly, Buffpilot, and others. Your focus on the general issues of cudget deficiency occurs within that more refined debate almost as though it were intended to obscure the seriousness of that more discrete issue.”
You’re off base on this point as relates to the main post. Apparently, you have forgetten the multiple subject matter that Linda Beale incorporated into the main post for this thread. I raised the analysis of the Federal budget in response to Beale’s main post. No main posters have ever provided an analysis of the President’s FY 2011 budget and CBO analysis of such. So, I raised the issue in relation to the main post. Beale did not provide a single subject main post.
MG – “Tell me which of those situations (War spending and Bush tax cuts) we can, as individuals, change in the morning? What will happen, though, is that the tax cuts will be changed or eliminated, and the two wars you’re concerned about will come to an end. The budget bleeding from those situations is temporary, though we see it as damaging to the national economy. Well, either way, those situations are among the most temporary major elements of the Federal budget. Neither will be major focus issues by FY 2018-2020. We’ll be complaining about something else by then.”
Jack – “That is one incredible statement. We can’t change things by the morning so we should give up trying to do so? Eventually those elements of the budget deficiencies (to say nothing of the moral issues involved) will pass away without our focus of attention? Multi-trillion dollar waste is only a temporary issue? So by 2018 all will be well inspite of our having ignored the greatest river of red ink and blood letting to have occured in several decades. We’re in the place we have come to because we have been driven there by those “temporary” budget phenomenon. We can’t wait another ten years hoping that they will “come to an end” with little attention from the citizen population. Those with designs on the Social Security program, where this discussion first began, will have us all poorly employed to age 70, 75, maybe 80. That’s the issue. Rivlin and her cohorts will have little difficulty raiding the Funds if we rely on your reasoning and approach to the problem.”
So, we have a difference of opinion. Big deal. It is my judgment that the Bush tax cuts as presently stated in the U.S. Code are temporary. It is also my judgement that the two wars will end. Yes, I view both budgetary funding issues as temporary conditions imposed on the Federal budget and operation the U.S. Government because that is what they are.
I expect that you have never seen a “Squeeze on Discretionary Spending” graphic based on CBO or OMB data. DoD spending is not a projected major problem beyond FY 2018 and FY 2020. Major Federal outlay growth later this decade will be occurring in Federal debt interest payment obligations, Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, and other social services programs, not in discretionary spending and not in national security if the Obama Administration’s budget is adopted. While Social Security and U.S. Postal retirement are off-budget, the U.S. Government will be redeeming non-marketable treasuries and certificates held by the SSA in order to offset existing and projected cash shortfalls. Hence, there will direct impacts on the U.S. Treasury and the General Fund.
Jack – “Those with designs on the Social Security program, where this discussion first began, will have us all poorly employed to age 70, 75, maybe 80. That’s the issue. Rivlin and her cohorts will have little difficulty raiding the Funds if we rely on your reasoning and approach to the problem.”
Apparently, you have forgetten the multiple subject matter that Linda Beale incorporated into the main post for this thread.
This is just another example of your single issue focus. Beale covered much more than the off-budget Social Security programs.
You have now thrown up a ridiculous assertion that my “reasoning and approach to the problem” (you didn’t define the problem you’re raising as an issue) will result in the Government “raiding the Funds” (I assume that you are referring to the OASDI combined trust funds). That’s laughable on a number of levels. The President’s commission has no legal authority to confiscate any monies from any operating element of the U.S. Government. When has the U.S. Government ever “raided” the two trust funds of the Social Security Administration’s OASDI programs? If the U.S. Government supposedly “raided” the SSA OASDI trust funds, what would the Government get in the raid and what supposedly would be done with the assests in hand?
I’m sure the commission members are fully capable of finding better professional analysis than any amateur discussions which have occurred elsewhere. It is highly unlikely that their collective approach would be similar to my personal approach.
I have no idea what recommendations the President’s commission will make to the President and/or the Congress, or what recommendations the President will make to the Congress. Only the Congress will have the authority to pass new law. The final action still rests in the Congress.
“I’m sure the commission members are fully capable of finding better professional analysis than any amateur discussions which have occurred elsewhere.”
That all depends on one’s definition of “better professional analysis.” I thinnk that Linda Beale was tryiing to make the point that Alice Rivlin may not be an unbiased participant. And that point has been made of several other members of that commission, especially its chairs.
“I have no idea what recommendations the President’s commission will make to the President and/or the Congress,”
Now we can finally agree on a point.
“Only the Congress will have the authority to pass new law. The final action still rests in the Congress.”
That’s exactly the point I’ve been trying to get you to understand.
Jack,
The action always rested with the Congress. There’s nothing new about that.
MG
Again we are in full agreement on a major point though one with significant minor under tones. How will the Congress be instigated to make its budgetary decisions? Who are the forces that will influence the final outcome? The White House certainly has a major role to play well beyond the need for the President’s signature on the legislation that describes the budget. The Debt Commission is itself a creation of the Executive. Congress will be able to hide behind the dictates of that Commission unless its members understand that you, I and the rest of the nation is watching what they finally are inclinded to do. I say inclined to do because it is essential that all of us who are concerned about the direction of the budget considerations need to communicate our own voting inclinations before any congressional voting occurs on the issue. The greater the number of citizens that make their voices heard, the more likely there will be a rational and just decision. One that takes the needs and interests of the vast majority, no not the “silent” majority,” into account over and above the interests of a very minute but influential sector of the Americans.