Comparing Presidents – Real GDP per Capita, late 2009 edition
by cactus
Comparing Presidents – Real GDP per Capita, late 2009 edition
Every so often I find I have to rewrite a post about how well Presidents have done at producing economic growth. See, over time, we get new readers, and some of the, based on what I read in comments or in e-mails I get sent, don’t seem to have much knowledge of what actually happened. There’s a lot of what Stephen Colbert refers to as truthiness, or what Fox refers to as “facts.” Interestingly enough, folks who write this sort of $&^ seem to feel it is important to lecture everyone else on the evils of being ignorant about economic history.
So to do my part to help reduce the incidence of people being ignorant about economic history, below you’ll find a graph below shows the annualized growth rate in real GDP per capita for every President going back to 1929. Before I put up the graph, some housekeeping notes:
1. I’m only going back to 1929 because 1929 is the first year for which data is available. Blame Simon Kuznets for not getting started sooner if it bothers you.
2. The methodology used is simple – I’m looking at the annualized change in the real GDP per capita from the last full year before a President took office to his last full year in office. Think of it this way – the last full year before he took office is what the economy looked like before he showed up. His last full year in office is the last point at which his policies are affecting the economy without someone else being in a position to start undoing or changing those policies. Reagan and GW both cut taxes their first year in office; Clinton raised taxes in his first year in office.
3. A few Presidents didn’t make it through their entire terms. I’m going to call the “last full year” the year President died (or resigned) in the second half of the year. Alternatively, if the President died (or resigned) in the first half of the year, I’m going to call the calendar year before that happened his last full year. Thus – FDR is measured from 1932 to 1944, JFK from 1960 to 1963, and Nixon from 1968 to 1973.
4. If you think lags matter, wait a bit. I’ll write that post next. If you think other things matter, wait a bit… and I’ll get to that too as time permits.
5. All the data for the post comes from line 10 of the BEA’s National Income and Product Accounts Table 7.1.. I like to get things straight from the horse’s mouth, not from the Heritage Foundation.
6. I’ve also included all the data plus the analysis itself in this nifty google spreadsheet.
7. The graph below is a variation of one that appears in my book coming out next year. Of course, in the book the graphs are done by a first rate professional – Nigel Holmes. What you see below are my own best efforts in Excel. There is a difference.
OK. Chega de lero lero (“enough yadda yadda”) as they used to say in Brazil. Here’s what it looks like, sorted from fastest growth to slowest:
I can comment, but there isn’t much point. Since I’ve had this post before (maybe three times), I know the first reaction from certain quarters – “the data ain’t right.” After all, this isn’t exactly what the WSJ is peddling or the National Review are peddling these days. To which I respond – I’ve provided links to the data. Do it yourself. Or follow along with the google spreadsheet. I don’t care.
The next argument tends to focus around FDR. All other insults the graph seems to imply pale by comparison with the idea that the economy grew so quickly under FDR. Heck, I remember my own introductory macro prof back in college telling us how FDR destroyed the American economy. And there are plenty of college profs today who seem to be making a living stating that today – this dude who teaches at my old alma mater being a prime example.
What you’re likely to get from people like that is something along these lines: “FDR was making a hash out of things, but when World War 2 started, the economy picked up.” There’s usually something about communism or socialism thrown in to boot.
And that’s fine excuse. It sounds good. And while talk is cheap, to be honest, these days so is checking data. Since the folks who peddle the line about the commie bastard taking America apart brick by brick until we wuz all saved by the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor don’t put up the data, I’ll do it. In fact, I’ll do better than that. I’m going to measure the growth rate from 1932 (the year before FDR took office) to 1938. That was not just before the War, it was before Lend-Lease, before the Destroyers for Bases agreement, and before just about any American preparation for the war whatsoever.
Furthermore, outside of the depression, the ’37-’38 recession was the worst economic problem between 1929 and the start of World War 2. In fact, real GDP per capita declined from 1937 to 1938, and real GDP per capita was about the same in 1938 as it was in 1936.
So 1938 accomplishes two goals, a) it avoids the influence the war and b) is about the best year you can pick as an “ending” to FDR’s administration if your want to make FDR look bad. And for giggles, let’s leave out Hoover altogether. Here’s what it looks like:
There isn’t much to say about this graph except that it clearly isn’t part of the Gospel According to Amity Shlaes. But it is more than enough heresy for one night, so I’m shutting down. But on my way out the door, let me just share one thought, for those who think this somehow can be reconciled with a “Republicans know what they’re doing when it comes to the economy” story-line: if just about every data point is a special case, your model sucks.
______________________________
by cactus
The first thing that comes to my mind is among democrats why is Truman so bad. What democrat principal did not followed that all the other ones did that landed him at the bottom.
The next question would be why does Carter come beind Clinton, LBJ, and JFK, and FDR. He was a democrat too.
And why does LBJ have better numbers then clinton. Perhaps taxes where higher under LBJ and that’s good?
On the republican side why does Reagan have better numbers then Ford and Bush Jr. come in behind Nixon.
Could it be that FDR numbers are inflated since they don’t represent much new growth over where the economy was in 1929 but rather just a very slow rebound that finally brought GDP back to its 1929 level by 1938.
Also, it seems that Reagan, Ford, and Nixon, and GW inherited economies from their predecessors that were on a path or had built up pressures setting up recessions (Same with Truman). While LBJ, JFK, Clinton, and Carter, and FDR all inherited economies either at the end of a recession (or depression) setting them up for a rebound effect. And this rebound effect versus catching falling knives pretty much explains the different bars.
And Poor Barak Obama, given he’s the first democrat since Truman to inherit a falling knives economy how are his numbers going to look at the end of his first term. Pretty bad i think.
So if Obama is already pre-determined to have below average numbers given he bears no fault for what he was handed I don’t really se the value of this analysis.
So when you model Y = Bx + alpha, remind the viewers about what assumptions you are making about B2, B3… Bn, where B are factors, besides who the president is, that impact GDP (like say the innovation of the personal computer).
For those who have never modeled before in their life, you can quite easily take an equation of the form above with a B > 0 and simply respec the equation to Y = Bx + B2x2 + alpha and all of a sudden that B that was once > 0 (with a t-val over 20) is now a B < 0 (with a t-val under -20). Anyone who is stupid enough to believe you can get any information modeling GDP based on one variable needs to be left behind by evolution (i.e. their DNA should not be passed on).
cantab,
“The first thing that comes to my mind is among democrats why is Truman so bad. What democrat principal did not followed that all the other ones did that landed him at the bottom.”
I’ll give you two hints. Sarah Palin and GW. Both of them compared themselves to a certain Democratic President of times past. There’s a reason Reps like that particular Democratic President… and it has to do with what policies got implemented during that particular President’s time in office, ’cause you don’t see Reps going around saying nice things about FDR or LBJ.
“The next question would be why does Carter come beind Clinton, LBJ, and JFK, and FDR. He was a democrat too. “
I’ve had those posts. I can’t repeat absolutely everything I’ve ever written every time I write a post. This post was intended to serve a very specific purpose – state some facts. We can get to explaining those facts (again) later, but it is important to get the facts right.
As a for instance, you were stating all sorts of things in the past two weeks that in no way can be reconciled with the two graphs presented. We can’t talk about the why if we’re not on the same page about what actually happened.
“Could it be that FDR numbers are inflated since they don’t represent much new growth over where the economy was in 1929 but rather just a very slow rebound that finally brought GDP back to its 1929 level by 1938. “
The fastest real growth in our recorded history is many things, but a very slow rebound?
“he’s the first democrat since Truman to inherit a falling knives economy”
Um, weren’t there 3 recessions under Ike, one of which was ongoing during the 1960 elections and when JFK arrived in office. Most people wouldn’t say an economy that has gone through 3 recessions in eight years is on the verge of zooming into the stratosphere.
“So if Obama is already pre-determined to have below average numbers given he bears no fault for what he was handed I don’t really se the value of this analysis. “
I’m not impressed with Obama’s policies thus far, and I’m not expecting great things from him. But if you’re willing to call FDR’s performance a slow rebound, then by definition, if growth over Obama’s entire term is twice as fast as Reagan’s, you’ll still call his numbers below average.
The accuracy of the numbers is lower and lower the further back you go. In particular, Truman’s numbers are thrown off by WWII. Most of the loss in GDP happened at the beginning of his term; when people were switching from military to civilian employment.
http://www.libertarianpapers.org/articles/2009/lp-1-4.pdf
Although I find it strange that Robert Higgs does not consider the possibility that hours worked are a lagging indicator.
Also Cantab, how is it that you believe Nixon, GW, and Reagan were poised for a recession when they started their terms in office? Nixon and GW started their administrations after a long period of uncommonly high growth. Reagan started his after a long period of uncommonly poor growth. And Ford was preceded by a Republican President. If Ford was poised for a recession when he took office, why shouldn’t Nixon take the blame for that?
Jay,
1. As noted upthread, the purpose of this post is simple – to state some facts. I’ve had posts explaining the why of what happened, and I will have such posts in the future. I’ve written a book about it too, which comes out next year. But getting some agreement on the basic facts makes a difference.
2. Of course more than one variable matters. But clearly Dem or Rep matters. Many Dems have no clue what they’re doing. But Reps as a general rule do poorly. And being a Dem is shorthand for a group of policies, just as a being a Rep is shorthand for a group of policies.
Frankly, I keep hearing that if only we follow Rep policies (i.e., cut taxes and deregulate) the economy will grow. My posts a few years ago began as an examination of that premise. The facts don’t support that premise.
So what you should be comparing is GDP per-capita growth from 1992 – 2000 if Clinton was elected president vs GDP per-capita growth from 1992 – 2000 if a republican was elected president. You have not presented these facts. Sorry I am not convinced about your blanket ceteris paribus assumption (over time).
Not to mention to treat GDP as a single aggregate, rather than the sum of several moving parts (generalized as C + G + I + NEX) is also disengenuous. Particularly NEX, which has more to do with the 5.7 billion people that live outside this country then the 0.3 billion that live inside this country, let alone the 0.000000001 billion person who happens to be president.
Cactus,
Here’s a website that claims to have US GDP data going all the way back to 1790:
http://www.measuringworth.org/usgdp/
Angus Maddison claims to has a data set for worldwide GDP going back to the year 1000.
Here’s a link to Maddison’s data set:
http://www.ggdc.net/maddison/Historical_Statistics/horizontal-file_03-2007.xls
looks like the data is census-based 10 year increments until you get to 1870 . . .
I also should add you have the true definition (using accrual based accounting and balance sheets) incorrect. Taxes in a given year are not equal to the revenue that the government collects. Taxes are equal to the expenditures in a given year. When the government spends 10 and collects 5, the remaining 5 in taxes are incurred through Treasury issuance, and the cash transfers occur of time.
David C
In particular, Truman’s numbers are thrown off by WWII.
Of course they are and this is what bugs me about the Cactus analysis
The number are given below:
Year GDP05 Growth
1944 2,035
1945 2,012 -1.1
1946 1,792 -10.9
1947 1,776 -0.9
1948 1,854 4.4
1949 1,845 -0.5
1950 2,006 8.7
1951 2,161 7.7
1952 2,244 3.8
Look at the -10.9 percent. What was Truman supposed to do? Start another war to keep FDRs military industrial complex going?
Also Cantab, how is it that you believe Nixon, GW, and Reagan were poised for a recession when they started their terms in office?
I’m just looking at the data. GW got his recession his first quarter in office so it certainly was not the result of any of his policies. Nixon got his recession in his first year (Q4) and even though Nixon presided over a de-escalation of the Vietnam war I don’t remember it happening that fast. However, later in his administration the war ground down to nothing and although Vietnam did not involve the same mobilization as WWII de-escating it have a negative impact on the economy (although Nixon was a bit of a Keynesian wild man).
And on Reagan he stood by and supported Volker as he put the economy into recession to beat down the inflation that had gotten out of control in the previous decade.
Cactus,
I’m not sure what criteria you used to group certain adminstrations polices to performace. Ike, and Nixon were both high tax republicans. Nixon was a Keynesian and a huge Believer in government intervention (remember Nixon’s gas lines – and the trouble getting a raise in 1974).
Look at Carter, next to Reagan he did the most to dismantle the FDRs big government. Airline deregulaton started with Carter and with interstate trucking.
LBJ created they moden welfare state and then Bill Clinton took it down with welfare reform saying that the “Era or Big Government was Over”.
So your grouping by party really does not capture the idology. You imply it does but it doesn’t.
Cactus,
I’m not sure what criteria you used to group certain adminstrations polices to performace. Ike, and Nixon were both high tax republicans. Nixon was a Keynesian and a huge Believer in government intervention (remember Nixon’s gas lines – and the trouble getting a raise in 1974).
Look at Carter, next to Reagan he did the most to dismantle the FDRs big government. Airline deregulaton started with Carter as did interstate trucking.
LBJ created they moden welfare state and then Bill Clinton took it down with welfare reform saying that the “Era or Big Government was Over”.
So your grouping by party really does not capture the idology. You imply it does but it doesn’t.
Cactus
“some of the, based on what I read in comments or in e-mails I get sent, don’t seem to have much knowledge of what actually happened.”
actually they don’t have much knowledge of what happened yesterday. all they know is how they felt about it. that’s why it is so important that they have pundits to tell them how to feel about it every day.
as for reasoning with Cantab… well there is a reason they vote Republican. I am reading a book that proves Lincoln was a bad bad bad man. You see, it was he who created the government which persecuted the Indians in the decade after he died. If only the states had been left to secede that never would have happened.
Probably I am not doing the book justice. My point is that someone desperate to make a point sometimes overreaches.
I remember my maternal grandfather going on about how bad FDR was for the country, and to a lesser extent my mother. So now the arguement creeps back up. We also have Ron Paul pushing the Andrew Jackson line of the evil of banks (also Thomas Jefferson believed this). Another comparison is between Mckinley and William Jennings Bryan (1896). In all of these cases we are into facts are the enemy of truth land, or put another way, when the facts do not conform to the theory they must be discarded.
Since there is cyclicality to the economy and since presidents can affect only a small part of an economy in a short time, I would think it would be more meaningful to take the consensus forecast of economic growth and see whether the actual economic outcomes of a president’s actions positively or negatively deviated from the forecast. To look at economic growth without removing the expected cyclical growth path, whether or positive or negative, is to attribute more influence to any president than they actually have over an economy.
Although I’m partial to the suggestion that Democratic policies are more condusive to sustained economic growth than Republican policies, I think one has to acknowledge that correlation does not imply causality, and that perhaps other factors are at play in the outperformance of the economy under Democratic stewardship.
One particular weakness in this study is the low sample size — I wonder if the relatively low number of presidential elections has led to false impressions. In particular, is it possible that Democratic presidents are more likely to be elected during times of economic difficulties, while Republican presidents are more likely to be elected during times relatively good growth? Moreover, if a President is elected during economic difficulties, it is more likely that growth during his term will be above normal. Conversely, if a president is elected while growth is good, it is more likely that growth will falter during his term.
The period of high growth under Roosevelt in the 30’s is patially explained by him taking power at the depths of the Great Depression. Growth could only get better. It’s a similar story for Cinton, who took power as the nation emerged from a recession — growth was bound to be higher than it was under Bush Sr. This probably also partially explains the relative high growth under Reagan, who took power at the end of a recession.
The oppoosite effect, that of Republicans having a tendency to win in years where the economy isn’t an issue works against Nixon/Ford, Bush Sr. and Bush Jr. In all three cases, recessions followed their elections (or at least economic difficulties in Nixon’s case). In Bush Jr’s case, he won reelection after the economy recovered, on non-economic issues, and then had a second recession.
Could it be that the outperformance of the economy under Democratic stewardship is a product of Democrats being more likely to be elected when growth is slow, and thus likely to be relatively faster during their term?
“some of the, based on what I read in comments or in e-mails I get sent, don’t seem to have much knowledge of what actually happened.”
http://www.bea.gov/national/nipaweb/TableView.asp?SelectedTable=3&ViewSeries=NO&Java=no&Request3Place=N&3Place=N&FromView=YES&Freq=Qtr&FirstYear=1993&LastYear=2001&3Place=N&Update=Update&JavaBox=no
Yes lets characterize the “sustainable in ad finitum” Clinton “booming” economy (which includes NASDAQ 5,000 being rational). Rank the growth of the following GDP accounts (from slowest growing to fastest growing) from 1993Q1-2001Q1
Federal government (non-defense)
State/local government
Durables consumptions
Consumption ex durables
Residential fixed strutures investment
Nonresidential investment
I’ll give you sometime to rank them based on your religious beliefs. In the morning I will post the correct order, which I predict will be reverse of what Coberly believes happened under Clinton.
Of course as for reasoning with Coberly… well there is a reason they vote Democrat.
Cactus’s simpleton notions are like reading a junior high science fair project.
Kosta: Heresy to suggest that the relationship might run the other way, or that correlation does not prove causation. That is like saying warmer temperatures make the environment capable of sustaining higher concentrations of CO2.
And don’t bother with sample sizes. The democrats are the party of anecdotes. A 99% confidence interval on a sample of N = 1 includes only the value of the sample.
Of course growth of GDP per capita is not what the GOP cares about. What it cares about is how much money can be moved from the masses to the upper uppers. As long as income distribution is getting more and more unequal, the GOP is very happy. A drop in the Gini index is what would alarm it.
“I’m not sure what criteria you used to group certain adminstrations polices to performace.”
In this post, I am merely stating facts.
But still, I’ll answer the question – I’ve written variations of the post that answers this question about seven different times, each time with different data. Here’s one (http://angrybear.blogspot.com/2007/12/taxes-and-growth-rates-two-graphs.html) using data from the IRS.
Here (http://angrybear.blogspot.com/2009/07/response-to-megan-mcardle-again-by.html) is some commentary.
Now, I realize that you have glommed onto an irrelevancy, the highest marginal rates that nobody pays except on a trivial amount of their income (hence the fact that there’s a million bucks still on the table for anyone who wants it from the Buffett challenge), but simply put, your high tax Republicans were simply those Republicans who did not decrease the actual tax burden by all that much. That’s a very different thing from being high tax. (As you yourself pointed out two weeks ago, the actual amount of taxes paid in the economy has tended to fluctuate from about 17% to about 24% from 1952 to 2008.)
“ Nixon was a Keynesian and a huge Believer in government intervention (remember Nixon’s gas lines – and the trouble getting a raise in 1974). “
You know, I’m going to let you wander through the archives my response to this one yourself. Or wait for the book. For now, I’ll simply state that depending on your definition of big government, you just might find Reagan topping the Republican list.
Seriously, its about time you start looking at data. You might find that the world according to Krauthhammer and Kudlow bears no resemblance to what actually happened, no matter how well the right has managed to make everyone believe.
“So your grouping by party really does not capture the idology. You imply it does but it doesn’t.”
Once more – from the IRS post – just the key graph (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_yBU2IH33oeM/R1apDb04KkI/AAAAAAAAA5Y/TFIxxmle7n4/s1600-h/annualized+percentage+change+in+individual+income+tax+as+a+percentage+of+personal+income.jpg).
David C
You are partly right about the scale down from WW2. Ditto the accuracy of the numbers; the BEA makes improvements periodically (and this year released a major revision to the methodology began a year and change ago). But the difference between, say, FDR and Reagan is due to a bit more than some rounding error somewhere.
cantab,
“ What was Truman supposed to do? Start another war to keep FDRs military industrial complex going? “
1. We elect these guys (OK, Truman wasn’t elected in 1945, but still, he wasn’t VP when FDR died by accident either – the man clearly took steps to be VP) to serve us. Being President is a privilege, and we expect them to carry it out well. The transition at the end of WW2 may have been difficult, but there were a lot of advantages too. For example, a massive amount of pent up demand. It was Truman’s job to make the latter outweigh the former. He failed.
2. As FDR showed, one bad year (or even several) does not preclude some monster growth later. Reagan had some very good growth for three or four years, despite a lousy beginning.
Jay
“1992 – 2000 if Clinton was elected president vs GDP per-capita growth from 1992 – 2000 if a republican was elected president”
I’ve had this post too – I’m pretty sure you read it. Obviously, we can’t do that. And its pretty much impossible to do under any other circumstances either.
When you give one group a placebo and the other the test drug, you don’t know with absolutely certaintly that if you switched the two groups outcomes would be the same.
Jay,
What you’re talking about is the accumulation of the debt, not taxes. Taxes are most definitely not equal to expenditures in a given year. Here is what debt looks like (http://angrybear.blogspot.com/2007/07/comparing-presidents-national-debt.html), by president, incidentally.
Tao,
Thanks.
BTW… I think the OMB has it going back pretty far too… I just can’t find the link right at this exact moment.
Jay,
I don’t have a clue what you just wrote means.
Lyle,
“when the facts do not conform to the theory they must be discarded.”
That’s always been one of my favorite quotes since it applies so often to the world we see around us. I’m just trying to state facts and boy does it stir up a hornet’s nest.
Milton,
Yes and no. As I noted to cantab a week or two ago, there’s probably a reason why a lot more recessions start under Reps, and that Reps spend more time in recession.
(I suspect it has something to do with this – http://angrybear.blogspot.com/2007/12/taxes-and-growth-rates-two-graphs.html)
In fact, most of the major economic disasters of the last hundred years and change that required massive amounts of government intervention (e.g., panic of 07, Crash of 29 + Great Depression, the collapse of Bretton Woods, the S&L debacle, the current mess) started not just with a Rep in the Oval Office, but after several years in which Reps were in the Oval Office. (By my count, the low end was about 4 years of Nixon before the Bretton Woods system fell apart.)
The business cycle matters, but Presidents have something to do with that business cycle.
Think of it this way – if, over a period of eighty or ninety years, almost every time you go to a Doctor who graduated from school A you feel better, and almost every time you go to a Doctor who graduated from school B, you don’t, then your options are:
a. assume school A trains doctors better
b. assume that by coincidence, every time you went to doctors from school B, it was with a worse malady than when you visited doctors from school A.
Kosta,
“I wonder if the relatively low number of presidential elections has led to false impressions. In particular, is it possible that Democratic presidents are more likely to be elected during times of economic difficulties, while Republican presidents are more likely to be elected during times relatively good growth?”
The problem with this one is that we’ve had election outcomes that were close. For instance, Clinton only got a plurality of the vote, and perhaps wouldn’t have won without Perot in the race. Which by your theory indicates that perhaps we, the American public, were ready for some lousy performance. It didn’t happen.
Conversely, GW actually lost the popular vote. Which indicates that his performance should look more D than R. It doesn’t.
Jay,
Re-read the post. Here’s how it ends:
But on my way out the door, let me just share one thought, for those who think this somehow can be reconciled with a “Republicans know what they’re doing when it comes to the economy” story-line: if just about every data point is a special case, your model sucks.
Now tell me what you might find in the post that indicates that correlation does imply causality.
Guest,
Yeah, better to read the folks that the WSJ chooses to feature explaining how cutting taxes makes the economy zoom.
Margery,
They care about this: http://angrybear.blogspot.com/2007/12/taxes-and-growth-rates-two-graphs.html
GDP growth by component 1993Q1 – 2001Q1
Federal government (non defense) 10.67%
State and local government 32.85%
Consumption ex durables 32.75%
Residential investment 41.05%
Nonresidential investment 94.56%
Durables consumption 109.85%
Pretty uneven growth. Looks like government had very little to do with the growth from 1992 to 2001. Try running a regression of durables consumption vs availability of credit (due to changes in the banking sector). Then run a regression of nonresidential investment (which includes equipment and SOFTWARE) with the net worth of Bill Gates.
I won’t disagree with the statement ‘President’s matter’. I’d just suggest the R^2 is closer to .01 not the 1 that you tend to assume.
Evidence? Or should I chalk this up as a religious belief you pulled from the Liberal’s book of Genesis (written by Paul Krugman of course).
Guest really impresses me.
When you can not win the argument with the facts
yor resort to insulting your opponent.
Way to really impress us with your insights, guest.
So, one question cantab wants us to focus on is apparently, why does the economy perform better under some Democrats than others. Yes? OK, we need to step back and think for a moment. Wouldn’t it seem odd if the economy performed in exactly the same way under all the Democrats?
Given that there will almost certainly be divergence in performance, somebody has to be the worst performing Democrat, and somebody has to be the best. The fact that things are pretty much the way they have to be is not a startling fact. It can be used, however, to distract us from the main point – that the economy performs worse under Republicans than under Democrats, as a general rule.
This isn’t cactus first go-round, so it isn’t the first time that pure nonsense dressed up as “wise uncle” knowledge has been employed to counter the facts presented. Here is a stunning example —
“Could it be that FDR numbers are inflated since they don’t represent much new growth over where the economy was in 1929 but rather just a very slow rebound that finally brought GDP back to its 1929 level by 1938.”
How is “a very slow rebound” the source of the fastest growth in the past 8 decades? Seriously, just declare that rapid growth is slow growth? That’s how this is going to go? Didn’t Orwell have a word for expressions like “blackwhite” and “fastslow”? “Doublethink”, I think.
If we are going to go down the path, again, of being told “just so” stories to distracted us from the stark evidence of the data, let’s at least keep in view what question is being asked here. Since the economy regularly grows faster under Democrats than Republicans, the issue is whether Democrats are better economic managers. The rapid growth of output under Roosevelt may have been possible because there was an enormous supply of unused resources in the economy, but on the basis of the data, we cannot conclude that Roosevelt’s policies were bad (except in 1937-1938). If we are looking at policies, there is no evidence in strong growth that his policies were bad. Only when he backed off from stimulative efforts, in 1937-1938, did contraction resume. So on the evidence, his highly stimulative policies were good (or irrelevant) and his stringent policies were bad (or irrelevant).
Based on the data – and this was the starting point for everything cactus has done in this vein, if memory services – we cannot conclude that Republicans offer a superior set of policies. Based on the data, we are left with three options. 1) Democrats are lucky (an assertion that seems to be the point of much of what cantab has written, but which seems to stretch the bounds of credibility, given the persistence of that “luck”.) 2) Policy doesn’t matter, in which case we need to stop giving any credence to any claim Republicans make about economic policy – and we still have to believe Democrats were incredibly lucky. 3) Democrats tend to pursue a better set of economic policies than Republicans.
By the way, cactus has already addressed the whole data mining exercise aimed at undermining the evidence of the data. Look at his final paragraph. If, in nearly every case, you have to tell some story that says some special circumstance makes the evidence on growth misleading, you don’t really have a case. You just have a pile of special cases.
***The first thing that comes to my mind is among democrats why is Truman so bad. What democrat principal did not followed that all the other ones did that landed him at the bottom. *** Cantab
A reasonable question. The answer is probably that World War II was an enormous dislocation not only socially, but statistically. For example, not only was virtually everything other than carbohydrates rationed during WWII, but there were price controls on consumer goods — not that there were any available during the war. When the price controls were lifted in 1946(?), there was a short but violent burst of inflation — 18% as I recall. Getting a decade’s worth of inflation in a few months does not do wonders for per capita GDP.
Also, the transition from making tanks and liberty ships to making cars and refrigerators took a longer time than most people would expect. For example, the first post-war new cars didn’t appear in any numbers until late 1948/early 1949. … and a lot of the 1944-1945 production was military stuff that was mothballed or deliberately destroyed even if it survived the war. And there was the small matter of something like 15% of the working age male population (few women worked in 1946) leaving the military and re-entering the civilian work force which wasn’t all that well prepared to handle them.
I have no idea what Truman’s performance would have been if it were feasible to correct for all that stuff.
Probably OK?
Cactus,
Your rating scheme shows Truman as a failure for basically Inheriting peace and the corresponding economic readjustment in a country coming home from war.
You also mention the Eisenhower had three recessions which is true. What you fail to mention is that Eisenhower extended all the major new Deal programs and even elevated status of one of them to be the Department of Health, Education, and Welfare, a cabinet level agency. And on top of this in terms of infrastructure projects Eisenhower built the interstate highway system.
So Eisenhower really was an FDR high tax big government liberal with big government and big labor in its hayday — and we had three recessions. This is FDR’s legacy and its a big reason why Carter started to dismantle his programs and Clinton declared the “era of big government was over”.
The post FDR economy really began with Carter (with the support of Ted Kennedy) who started deregulation and the dismantling of FDRs industrial policy. This was accelerated by Reagan and extended through Bush 41 until Clinton pronounced big government dead in 1996. Bush 43 extended this with his tax cuts and his resistance to new industrial policy under the guise of environmental conserns.
Obama, I don’t know what he is. His economic policy makes about as much sense as his surge in Afghanistan with it’s expiration date. Incoherent.
One more methodology issue: Using real per capita GDP rather than just real GDP is a really good idea and one that ought to be used more often. But I think we should probably also correct GDP for borrowing (i.e. increases in the GDP to Debt — public+private — ratio). If we don’t do that, we end up counting money borrowed from the future as increases in productivity. It’s sort of like counting your house as part of your net worth but failing to subtract the present value of the mortgage.
As it happens, the post WWII GDP to debt ratio was pretty constant until about 1980, but started climbing when Reagan took office and has continued to climb ever since with some moderation during the Clinton years.
Problem is that the numbers for total debt are a bit hazy and even were they not, it is not real clear exactly how to correct GDP for increases (or decreased) borrowing.
Spencer,
I’m winning on facts, so where’s my compliment.
Guest is right. Cactus shows Truman a failure even though his low number are because WW2 ended. He suggests Eisenhower is a failure because he’s a republican (subliminally like Reagan) even though when you look at his record Eisenhower is clearly a follower of FDRism. Same with Nixon and Ford. The change in direction started with Carter and solidified under Reagan and continued with both president Bush’s and Clinton. Clinton ran on being a new democrat, which was a movement that identified the democrat party as being out of touch and identified with welfare and big government. Clinton slashed welfare, and declared big government a thing of the past.
Obama has tried you flip back to the old democrat ways. You can see him out there floating and floundering with nothing.
Jay, you seem to have confused “government policy” with “government outlays”. If the point cactus was making was that Democrats have presided over better growth than Republicans because Democrats spend more, this would be a different debate. The claim he set out to rebutt, again assuming I remember correctly, was that Republicans are superior economic policy makers. The question is not whether government spending can be made large enough for a long enough time to lift aggregate growth above trend. In fact, cactus has not limited himself to one question. The starting point was whether overall growth was faster, in general, under Dems or Reps. Answer – faster under Dems. The, a number of lags were examined, to see if the time necessary for policy to work its way into economic performance was masking the virtues of GOP policies. Answer – no. Reasonable lags to account for the time needed to craft and implement policy do no change the overall outcome. Then – and here’s the effort to address the question of whether it’s just raw deficit spending that does it – cactus looked at growth corrected for the deficit. Answer – output growth corrected for deficit spending is generally faster under Democrats than Republicans.
But that is mostly just a digression. The point cactus examines in most posts is whether growth throughout the economy is faster or slower under Democrats than Republicans, not whether growth in government spending accounts for better performance under Democrats. Your observation that government spending growth was not a big contributor to the overall pace of growth is either irrelevant to the point cactus is making, or supports his case.
VTC,
Back in the first, prolonged round, cactus did look at GDP corrected for deficit. The results showed growth was better under Democrats than Republicans.
What is happening now that cactus is publishing another look at the data is that many of the points raised earlier and already addressed are being raised again. That isn’t necessarily a bad thing, but it would do for readers of these new posts to go back and review the ground already covered.
It is also not new for the likes of cantab to claim to be winning on the facts, when there is no evidence that is the case. After all, the Bolsheviks were not the majority except in a single vote within the party, but adopting a name which means “majority” did have propoganda value. There is always the chance that innocent (and not-so-innocent) bystanders will be swayed by the claim that “the facts are on my side”, however untrue that statement may be.
Kharris,
If you are going to disagree with me then try doing in on a substantial issue. I pointed out the Eisenhower pretty much carried out the same economic policy that a democrat would have. He kept taxes high, maintained most of FDRs economic policies, introduced a massive new infrastructure project buy building the interstate highway system.
And Cactus points out that Eisenhower had 3 recession. But then he goes on to induce a fallacy by the logic of Eisenhower was a republican, Reagan and Bush were republicans, both Reagan and GW cut taxes, and since Eisenhower had 3 recessions it must mean that cutting taxes cause recession, since he had 3. However, a closer look at Eisenhower shows that he was from FDRs high tax with high regulation and industrial policy camp.
Since Eisenhower was a deciple of FDR and he had 3 recession this shows the failure of FDRs polices. Not the other way around.
Cactus,
So what elements of Bretton woods did Clinton restore to have high economic growth in the 1990s? And did Clinton bring back regulation Q? Did Clinton reverse Nafta? How about keeping the distinction between commercial and investment banks?
The simple fact of the matter is that Clinton had no significant economic policy of his own. Rather he stood on the shoulders of Ronald Reagan and basically clipped coupons his entire time in office. His only serious inititiative was to try to take over healthcare, and upon failing at that he became a placeholder president.
If we were having this debate around 2001 all the Clinton lovers would be coming out their ratholes trying to sell us on Rubinomics. This is basically the fairy tale that Clinton had some master plan at the start of his administration to pay down the debt, lower interest rates and cause an economic boom. Well they needed a story so this is the one they came up with. However, they make less noise these days given the fact that Bush ran up the deficit and his highest annual interest rates were lower then the lowest ones under Clinton. An now look at Obama, his deficit is doing that hockey stick thing and still interest rates are being held down. Therefore, Clinton is left with nothing but the fact he inherited a restructured economy poised for growth.
I wasn’t disputing that. My opinion is actually that WWII is a bubble, which popped at the beginning of Truman’s term. This simply means lowering FDR’s numbers, and raising Truman’s numbers, but the end result about taxes is still the same. And certainly it doesn’t diminish FDR’s results during the depression.
Cactus,
I see your still at your quest to prove that white = black?
So the huge tax increases that are coming our way should make the economy zoom?
As I have stated over and over:
1.) If we aren’t gonna talk about spending when talking taxes, then it is a bunk debate
2.) The lagging effects are so complex and over a large period of time, which I notice you consistantly have kept within the term of each President, and I feel that is too narrow of a window to predict anything. But, it is probably not possible to offer any kind of long term analysis. I have come to the conclusion that this type of analysis just isn’t good enough. Not sure we will ever be able to narrow down the economic effects based on who is in office.
3.) A more interesting thing is to look at which party controls the House and Senate and ignore the Executive.
“But then he goes on to induce a fallacy by the logic of Eisenhower was a republican, Reagan and Bush were republicans, both Reagan and GW cut taxes,”
I’m sorry…. you think I made up the data that went into the graph in the post to which I linked? Then why did I provide a link to the IRS?
The fallacy, if you had bothered to either read carefully or click through, originated with the IRS – they’re the ones who seem to have concluded that they were collecting less of a percentage of people’s incomes in 1960 than in 1952. But no doubt you know mroe about taxes than the IRS.
Cantab,
I agree with you 100%. If you define the fastest growth rate in American history as slow, assume the IRS data about tax collections during the Eisenhower administration is completely wrong, assume that LBJ, JFK, Carter and Clinton were small government Republicans and that Nixon, Ford, and the two Bushes were Democrats (also assuming that the IRS was wrong about tax collections in their terms), then yes, you are winning on facts. But please be advised that most people wouldn’t consider what you’re using to “bolster” your arguments to be facts.
Cactus,
You missed the point!
Do you or do you not agree that Eisenhower acted like a Democrat even though he was classified as a Republican?
VtCodger,
But I think we should probably also correct GDP for borrowing (i.e. increases in the GDP to Debt — public+private — ratio). If we don’t do that, we end up counting money borrowed from the future as increases in productivity. It’s sort of like counting your house as part of your net worth but failing to subtract the present value of the mortgage.
I don’t think you want to do that because you would be mixing stocks and flows. That’s a “Bozo no no” in econ-o-land. When you borrow you are still consuming current resources. The service cost of the debt is just the payment to those who deferred present consumption.
Cactus,
Your not being very realistic. You seem to think that this simple anaylsis of the data tells the story. I simply disagree with that.
I don’t really have a problem with the analysis, I don’t think your manipulating anything, I just disagree with the claim.
The claim that Democratic Presidents “Cause” growth, is what I disagree with. I do not disagree that growth has happend under Democratic Presidents, but you have not proven it is because of them, and you have yet to dig deep enough into the long term laggin effects. Keeping it within the terms of the President isn’t good enough.
Cactus,
You totally missed the point. There are two significant periods, FDR to Reagan and Reagan to present. I would put Trumen, Ike, JFK, Johnson, Nixon, and Ford all in the old school. Jimmy Carter had a foot in both periods, and then Reagan, Bush, Clinton, and Bush I would put in the new modern period.
Please deal with the fact that Eisenhower was a big government follower of FDR. We both know he had three recession. And this was during a period when the US had pretty much clear sailing as the world’s only economic superpower. Truman is really not a very good test since he was dealing with the downsizing following WWII. Eisenhower was a test of FDR’s policy and like you said we had 3 recessions during his watch.
A little bit more:
We all know that Kennedy and Johnson juiced the economy by getting interest rates lowered. Unfortunatly this led to inflation and was a contributer to United States having to go off the gold stardard and abandoning the Bretton woods agreement.
The Revenue and Expenditure Control Act of 1968, signed by Johnson on June 28, 1968, imposed a 10 percent surcharge on individual and corporate income taxes. Low-income taxpayers were entirely exempt. As Johnson pointed out in his statement when signing the bill, a family of four earning less than $5,000 (about $28,000 in 2005 dollars) would pay nothing additional. A family making $10,000 (about $57,000 in 2005 dollars) would pay just $2 extra per week (about $11.50 in 2005 dollars).
Individual taxpayers completed their returns as usual, but a new line appeared on Form 1040. After entering tax due on line 12a, an individual taxpayer was prompted by line 12b to consult a special surcharge table and add the appropriate amount to his or her regular tax liability. For tax year 1968, the surcharge amounted to 7.5 percent of a taxpayer’s regular tax liability. (The 10 percent levy was prorated since it was in place for only nine months of the calendar year.) For corporations, the process was similar: A new line on Schedule J of Form 1120 required companies to add 10 percent to their regular tax bills (or a prorated amount, depending on the corporation’s tax year).
In 1969 Congress renewed the surcharge through the middle of 1970 but reduced it to 5 percent. Still, the tax raised substantial revenue — some 55 billion in constant 1992 dollars, according to a 2003 Treasury Department estimate. As legal scholar Kirk Stark pointed out in a paper examining Vietnam War tax policy, “The importance of the 1968 legislation to the U.S. budget situation in the late 1960s should not be underestimated.”
http://www.taxhistory.org/thp/readings.nsf/cf7c9c870b600b9585256df80075b9dd/6b24abb33fe1996c852570d200756a5d?OpenDocument
So like with Reagan inheriting an economy with massive inflation to a lesser degree LBJ did the same to Nixon forcing Nixon to abandon the gold standard. The quote above shows LBJ imposing a tax, and that tax coinciding with a recession that was passed to Nixon to have it recorded on his watch.
Cantab,
And with an inflation period, the GDP will have more value so that can be disguised as growth, No?
cactus,
Just for giggles and grins I thought it might be kind of fun to reverse the dependent and independent variables. So I ran a simple Logit model with party ID as the dependent variable (GOP = “0” and Dem = “1”) and the log difference of your per capita GDP as the independent variable. The model tells us that growth in per capita GDP is a decent predictor of party identification. The larger the increase in per capital GDP, the more likely it is that the party in power is a Democrat. BTW, results don’t change much if you lag the variables. Attached is an image of the results.
Slugs,
And again all we get out of it is that growth happend under a Democratic President, but does nothing to say whether it was caused by a Democratic President!
Jimi,
No. Cactus used real GDP per capita; i.e., he adjusted for inflation. But thanks for playing along and please try again with another sorry excuse for weak GOP performance.
Cantab,
Interesting. You cited a tax lawyer as an expert on the economic effects of a surtax. Maybe next time you’ll cite a geologist if the thread turns toward dental hygiene.
The strange thing is that Nixon still managed to turn in one of the better GOP economic performances despite (or perhaps because of) the surtax as well as doing some plainly stupid things like “Phase 1” and “Phase 2” and wage & price controls.
Cantab,
Please deal with the fact that Eisenhower was a big government follower of FDR.
So that is an established “fact”? I have to say that Ike was a little before my time, so the only thing I know about Ike was that he was a man with a heart condition who liked to smoke cigarettes and that he wore some funny looking clothes on the golf course. Most macro books I’ve encountered seem to think that Ike was mostly disengaged from economic policy. But what do I know. Maybe all those folks who voted for Adlai Stevenson were actually fiscal conservatives who opposed an activist government.
Jimi,
That’s true. It does not establish that Democratic Presidents cause economic growth; but it does go a long way towards establishing the fact that the policies of Democratic Presidents do not dampen economic growth, which is the charge that Republicans like to make. I think the point of cactus’ posts is that this idea Republicans have of themselves as being the party of special economic insights because of their pro-business leanings is pretty much all a conceit. Democratic policies do not kill growth, which is what Republicans like to claim. In fact, Republicans show no particular aptitude in understanding macroeconomic policies.
Jimi,
Sorry, but no. That’s why we are using inflation adjusted GDP numbers.
Yes, I would say its established as fact given the research that I’ve done. Ike inherited the FDR apparatus and a democrat congress. He kept taxes high and he was not the one to deregulate airlines or interstate trucking. He also did the interstate highway system. So he really was a big government Keynesian. And pay no attention to the three recessions behind the curtain.
OK, Jimi, so you think it may be impossible to assess the economic effect of party control of one branch of government is because of the complexities involved, even though control of that branch is clear-cut. Then you say we ought to take a look at the influence of party control of another branch of government, a branch in which party control is not always clear-cut. Because that complexity in the independent variable makes the overall analysis less complex? That sure seems to be what you are implying.
Let me offer another explanation. Cactus has looked at the problem with and without lags, and either way the answer remains that the economy generally performs better under Democrats. Since the analysis produces results you don’t like, you claim that the analysis can’t produce valid results. That’s bad enough, but then to go on and claim that an even more complex situation might produce interesting results, without batting an eye? Whoa, dude!
Slugs,
We knew that before you did the regression. All you had to do was look at Cactus’s charts to know what the result was going to be.
Also, your regression results really show that easy times are associated with democrats which was my point.
Slugs,
Uh-Huh….Right! You keep telling yourself that!
“The Boskin/Greenspan benefit of a geometric weighting was that it automatically gave a lower weighting to CPI components that were rising in price, and a higher weighting to those items dropping in price. The more inflation is understated, the higher the inflation-adjusted rate of GDP growth that gets reported.”
http://www.shadowstats.com/article/consumer_price_index
Slubs,
but it does go a long way towards establishing the fact that the policies of Democratic Presidents do not dampen economic growth, which is the charge that Republicans like to make.
The data does not show this at all. Eisenhower followed democat policies and got three recessions. Nixon and Ford followed them also and got stagnation and recessions. LBJ followed a begger thy successor policy; and Carter started abandoning democrat policies but got whacked by rising oil prices. And your buddy Clinton pretty much followed the republican playbook on everything with the exception of his tax hike which he knew better than to set it back to the pre-Reagan level.
And notice that Cactus does not want to adopt Obama because his fate on his first term economic numbers was already set even before he entered office.
OK, so here’s my thing. I see a whole lot of effort to distract from, ignore, deny and belittle the results of simple evidence. That effort comes mostly from people who, to date, have not ever acknowledged the implication of the simple evidence.
So, Ike was a Republican, and the economy didn’t perform well while he was in office. So, we are asked to allow that he was a Democrat. Why? Because on two issues, both of which fall under the rubrick of fiscal policy, he behaved in a way that some of our argumentators insist is “acting like a Democrat”. And the next distraction will be (has already been) to claim Nixon was a Democrat because of wage and price controls. And Daddy Bush was probably a Democrat too, because we had to reread his lips.
I particularly like the point where Jimi slips into weasle-wording. Ike wasn’t “classified” as a Republican. He WAS a Republican. The Republican convention nominated him. He ran in every state in which he was on the ballot as a Republican. He recieved support from the National Republican Committee. Classified as? Preserve us from that kind of thinking.
We see at some points the argument made that things are too complex to narrow down to Democrats and Republicans and then in the same discussion (sometime be the same people) the insistance that Democrat and Republican is nothing more than fiscal policy. So, I ask you, is this to complex to be tractable, or so simple that we can ignore everything by fiscal policy? Can’t be both, but you guys seem to be running with whichever claim is convenient at the moment.
And that, I think, is the salient point. This is just another silly push-back effort, rather than a reasonable discussion of the issues. When evidence is presented, say anything to distract from it. Call fast growth slow. Say Republicans are Democrats. Make sloppy causal arguments and then accuse the other guy of confusing correlation with causation. And for goodness sake, slip in the claim that you are right and the other guy is wrong, without the slightest shred of evidence. It’s textbook pushback. Nothing about the nonsense cantab and Jimi and Guest are pouring out here is aimed at learning how things actually work. At no point will the “you’re wrong, so there” crowd acknowledge the extraordinary difference between economic performance under Democrats and Republicans – ’cause causality aside, the difference is extraordinary and to avoid saying so when the chart is right in front of you is pretty extraordinary, too.
This is not an examination of the evidence. It’s Karl Rove-style push-back, pure and simple.
Kharris,
1.) The data shows growth happends under Democratic Presidents, but does not prove it is because of Democratic Presidents.
2.) The President does not write legislation
3.) The president is more likely to stray from his party’s ideologies, where as, the house and the senate are more consolidated
Thanks for the reply. I should have expanded on the low n of the study. What I was getting at is that the state of the economy at the time of the election might be influencing the results, and that having additional samples could allow the separate consideration of this factor. And while I realize that only 17 elections are considered in the second data set, I believe there is a way that the sample number could be increased.
To repeat, the election concern is that the state of the economy influences which party is elected, and may result in Democrats tending taking power when the economy is weak and Republicans taking power when the economy is strong. This in turn likely influences the relative performance of the economy under each party with the economy tending to grow faster after recessions. I think it might be possible to somehow tease this factor out in a statistical analysis if the data is handled differently.
Instead of grouping all the growth data for each President into a single value, how about looking at growth during each year of the Presidential term. The first year of growth, often at the end of a recession, would be isolated for subsequent years (and indeed could be compared based on Democrat vs Republican response to recessions). Subsequent years in the term could also be compared both cross-sectionally and in a time-series fashion (with this latter comparison providing insights on the stability of growth under each President).
The records for LBJ’s and Truman’s first terms could be offset to facilitate comparison, as could Ford’s term. Presidents with second terms could be considered separately and compared to each other, or they could be grouped with the first term.
This approach might add some additional insight to the issue you’ve raised.
You’re trying too hard. I only used this source to say a tax hike happened and at the time specified which coincides with the recession dates listed at the NBER.
And Nixon is an example of a republican with a democrat economic policy — along with his two recessions and plainly stupid but consistent with big government control wages & price controls.
Jimi,
The CPI is not used to deflate GDP.
slugger,
A regression with one variable on each side of the equation is a correlation. So switching either arrangement of y and x should produce exactly the same results. Cactus hasn’t published correlation or regression results in this post, but eyeballing suggests a strong correlation between party affiliation and economic performance. Once you start doing lags, the result is not as obvious, assuming that when you switched y for x, the result was to lag things in the opposite direction from what cactus did in some of his earlier efforts.
Regression seems to imply causation, with the form of the regression equation implying direction of causation. Of course, the first “seeming” actually isn’t true. The form of a regression equation does involve assumptions about the nature of relationships, but doesn’t have to imply causation. But some of the comments here do claim that cactus is claiming causation. Those people need to read more carefully. The starting point of the whole exercise, if memory serves, was the claim of Republicans to superior economic management. Cactus, at the outset, did not claim that Democratic presidents caused more rapid growth, but rather than the data do not support GOP claims to being better economic managers. Flipping the x and y variables is funny to do, but to the extent it is meant to comment on causal implications, it may miss the mark.
Now, the denialists in our midst accuse cactus of making the same sort of claim that he started out to rebutt. Again, relying on memory, I think cactus did finally come up with a set of claims about Democratic policies that would explain superior economic performance, but that is not the claim he has made here, and in most of his posts on this subject. He was rebutting GOP claims, not making claims for Democrats. The data seem to make claims for Democrats, but for the most part, I recall that cactus does not.
Cantab,
Ike inherited the FDR apparatus and a democrat congress.
Really? Says here that Ike came in with a GOP majority in both houses of Congress.
http://www.enotes.com/presidential-biography/eisenhower-administrations/eisenhower-congress
He kept taxes high
In other words, he kept taxes where they were under successful Democratic Presidents. Hmmm. Your theory seems to be falling apart. Maybe you’ll do better as we go along.
He also did the interstate highway system. So he really was a big government Keynesian.
So the interstate highway system was funded as a WPA project using massive deficits? Wow, I’m learning a lot today. Thanks.
And pay no attention to the three recessions behind the curtain.
Sounds like you don’t want us to pay attention to that “R” at the end of his name.
Cantab,
We knew that before you did the regression.
Except that a logit model assigns probabilities to an outcome, so that’s new information.
Also, your regression results really show that easy times are associated with democrats which was my point.
So basically you’re saying that better times are associated with Democratic Presidents. So tell me again why people should vote for a Republican President???
The problem is that the results of cactus’ analysis are so lopsided that it’s really hard to argue that Democratic policies would be any worse than GOP policies. As I understand it cactus was not claiming that Democratic Presidents caused higher growth. That may or may not be true, but that’s not what he was arguing. His point was that GOP claims that Democratic policies will lead us to economic ruin are simply not supported by the historical record.
And Nixon is an example of a republican with a democrat economic policy
And yet Nixon still managed to do better than just about all other GOP Presidents even with all of that baggage of oil shocks in May 73 followed by the oil embargo in late 73 and being preoccupied with a burglary at some hotel along the Potomac. Amazing. Kind of makes you wonder just how bad the Nixon era would have been if he had actually followed even more stridently GOP economics.
Here we go again, with the claim that any Republican who didn’t oversee strong growth wasn’t a Republican. This is an odd world that cantab inhabits, in which Republican policies are something other than the policies fostered by Republicans. Any Republican who comes in below 5th place gets thrown out of the data set, which kinda means that Saint Ronald is the only Republican president since WWII. This practice has a number of names. Cherry-picking. Data-mining. Cleopatra (you know, Queen of de Nile). The whole argument that Republicans aren’t Republicans is bankrupt.
And oh, about Obama? Cactus has been working with a number of periods for examining presidential influence, and Obama hasn’t been around long enough for any of them. Obama hasn’t finished a term, been left office or died. So there is no precedent for including him at this early date. Why not wait and see whether cactus leaves Obama out once Obama is qualified to be in? Maybe Cantab just wants to distract us from the evidence, again?
jay
i don’t recall saying anything about clinton.
i did say something about trying too hard to make a case.
codger,
if borrowing did not increase productivity, businesses would not do it. there are dangers and limits to public borrowing, but just dismissing it as a part of the dynamics of the economy is… inadequate analysis.
jimi
couda fooled me. and i was there at the time. Eisenhower may have been the last sane Republican. But even the insane Nixon followed a tolerably sane economic policy.
Harris
correlation does not imply causation, but suggests a place to start looking for it.
what Cantab is arguing is that correlation implies non-causation. or non-correlation implies causation.
Harris,
Weasel-Wording kinda like Reagan was a Democrat?
Slugs,
Thanks for the correction on Ike with a republican congress. I think they point was that all FDR’s people were running the government.
Also, you have to remember that i’m not defending the republican party. I don’t identify at all with Ike, Nixon, or Ford on economic issues. They really were hard to distinguish from the democrats.
The basic argument of the Cantabulators is the Republicans are Best for the economy except that they have to deal with Democrat Congresss, Democrat predecessors, and Democrats getting credit for Republicans saving the economy. Probably if we could somehow get rid of Democrat voters, the Republicans would all live in Paradise behind a two way mirror in a padded valley somewhere in the Colorado mountains.
Yep, that Interstate Highway system. Boy! Was that ever bad for the economy. No Republican would have done that.
Kharris,
Finally you’re right on something. Slugs models show that good times cause democrat control.
Kharris,
I guess one in a row is the best we can expect from you.
You’re back in the wrong column again. Bush #43 had good pro growth economic policy but had mediocre numbers because he was heading into the headwind of inheriting an economic recession and then rising oil prices.
This is my point with Obama where do to no fault of his own he just can’t have good economic numbers for his first term since he inheritied a recession (and a pretty big one). You can add Truman to this club although Truman had it much worse then either of these two.
Slugs,
You have to use an idex to calculate Real GDP, so the GDP deflator will be effected, No?
It would be interesting to look at how different sectors do under the different presidents.
I recall an article from about five years ago looking at the fastest growing counties in the US by various measures.
By population % growth it is always rural counties that are becoming suburban sprawl, so just dominated by the denominator. By population number growth it is always a few of the largest metro counties. NY, LA, etc. Which cities varies, but 100,000 people just don’t move into a rural county in a year while that is always happening to some city.
Economic growth, however was interesting. Under Clinton the fastest growing counties economically were King County, WA (Microsoft), San Mateo, CA (silicon valley), I think another SF bay area high tech county, and some other high tech area on the east cost (maybe NC triangle?). Under Bush2 they were Washington DC, Baltimore MD, and two other counties bordering DC. This was a result of which sectors of the economy were growing. Under Clinton tech was growing like crazy, under Bush2 government contractors were growing like crazy (both defense and non-defense).
kharris,
The little toy model was a logit model, which is an unbiased version of a naive linear probability model. The output is not really interpreted as a correlation; it’s interpreted as the probability of an outcome given (in this case) a logistics distribution. I ran it as a probit model too (assumes normal distribution) but as is usually the case, there is next to no difference between the two. I think that the correct way to interpret the output is that the higher the per capita GDP growth, the more likely it is that you’ll find a Democratic President in office. That is actually quite different than merely saying there is a high correlation between the two. The reason is that you can quantify how much more likely it is that a President is a Democrat given “x” percent increase in per capital GDP, given “x + i” percent increase in GDP, given “x + j” percent increase in GDP, etc. You can’t say that with a simple correlation.
I thought I was pretty clear that the claim is not that Democratic Presidents cause higher per capita GDP. I think that’s true, but that’s not what I’m claiming here. The claim here is simply that the better the economic times the more likely it is that the guy in the WH has a “D” at the end of his name and that this fact is hard to reconcile with the GOP’s claim that Democratic policies will be our ruin.
Cobery,
Regression models assume causation — they don’t prove it.
kharris,
While I’ve got my geek hat on, I should make one more point. Unlike a conventional regression model, a logit model is nonlinear. In fact, that’s the whole point. A linear model would result in a biased estimate and would allow for the possibility of a probability > 1.00. Logit and probit models are nonlinear such that the probability only converges to 0.00 and 1.00 asymptotically.
***This is an odd world that cantab inhabits***
Cantab doesn’t actually live there y’know. He just enjoys stirring up the liberals with his idiotic posts. As far as I can tell, the real Cantab is a Libertarian who is still in a state of shock at fact that history has demonstrated yet again that civilization really does need rules beyond the laws of nature. But you are never gonna hear that from him in this forum.
LBJ followed a begger thy successor policy; and Carter started abandoning democrat policies but got whacked by rising oil prices. And your buddy Clinton
Clinton is not my buddy. I never met him. But LBJ and I do have a lot in common including DNA, so you’ll understand if I take objection to your calling his policies “begger [sic] thy successor.” Let’s keep in mind that the “Kennedy” tax cut was actually signed in 1964. And let’s also keep in mind that LBJ showed rare courage in actually listening to his economic advisors rather than just having them dress up preordained Administration policies (hint: think Bush 43).
It seems to me that there’s a perfectly understandable reason why we see higher GDP growth with Democratic Presidents than we do with GOP Presidents. Basically Democrats tend to focus on domestic issues and ignore foreign policy, while Republicans are fascinated with foreign policy and frankly bored with domestic issues. Where you put your focus says a lot about where you’ll succeed. Unless your name is George W. Bush, who was a failure in both domestic and foreign policy.
The basic argument of the Cantabulators is the Republicans are Best for the economy except that they have to deal with Democrat Congresss, Democrat predecessors, and Democrats getting credit for Republicans saving the economy
That’s not it at all. All the republicans and democrats between FDR and Reagan were Keynesians and keynesian economics died in the 70s because it didn’t work very well. From Reagan to Dubya they’ve been all free marketeers. And even Carter started turning on the big statist government that FDR built.
cactus,
Well got here late so really won’t jump in much. BUt I feel our discussion years ago were much better argued. But that’s what I remember! 🙂
To all a few comments from way, way backs ville:
1) The data is correct. Don’t go there.
2) This is not a reason to select a Dem President over a Rep (or vice versa). Prime example: Carter vs. Reagan (or Mondale for that matter). JFK/LBJ between the two got us in a war we lost along with letting millions to fall into tyrrany that they still have not recovered from, plus divided a nation and lost 58,000 US Troops. Plus almost got us into a nuclear exchange with the Russians. But their econ growth was high!
3) To date, I have seen no discussion of Democratic policies that “cause” this. I am hoping cactus will tackle that problem in his book.
4) Considering the huge positive forces in Clinton’s favor and huge negatives for Bush Jr. you cannot realistically say that both Clinton was great and Bush horrible oon the economy. Either Clinton grossly underperformed (i.e Bush bad also) or Bush Jr grossly overperformed (Clinton was great).
5) I can say with 100% certainty that the world in 1935 was much different from the world in 1945 which was much differnt from the world of 1975. Some of you have mentioned major changes but I would state that their were major world-changing turns in 1929, 1945, 1975, 1990, and 2001. YMMV. JFK has far more in common, policy-wise, with Bush Jr. than Obama.
6) Lastly, given ALL of cactus’s data that he placed on the website, I would say (i.e My Opinion) the best government we could get would be a Dem President with a frugle Rep controlled Congress (divided government). The worst – well we are about to get it good and hard. Dem Pres with Dem Congress.
One more thing – BUY HIS BOOK!!!!
Islam will change
cactus – I think you did this in the way back time. But how about putting this graph by GDP growth by President in 4 year increments starting in 1932 (1928 if you have the data). I have always wondered how all the infastructure build by Ike plus the effects of all the GI bill troops finishing the pipeline followed by JFKs massive tax cuts didn’t set the stage for the huge growth in the ’60s. Wonder how much greater it would have been without the Dems getting us into Vietnam?
Islam will change
Clinton is not my buddy.
I thought he was..
But LBJ and I do have a lot in common including DNA
That good because LBJ treated his DNA better then Clinton did.
It seems to me that there’s a perfectly understandable reason why we see higher GDP growth with Democratic Presidents than we do with GOP Presidents.
Sure, I named a few. Getting an economy on a rebound seems to be the major factor accounting for a large part of the success of FDR/JFK/LBJ/Carter/Clinton. Having low or falling energy prices like with JFK/LBJ/Clinton/Reagan is also a very positive thing to happen. Shutting down a war like with Truman/Ike/and Nixon are not positives. Neither are spiking oil prices experienced by Nixon/Carter/and Dubya.
Basically Democrats tend to focus on domestic issues and ignore foreign policy, while Republicans are fascinated with foreign policy and frankly bored with domestic issues.
Going to have to put this one on the slugbaits list of classics. FDR/Truman – WWII. Truman Korea. FDR/LBJ Vietnam (Nixon ended it). Throw in Wilson for the mother of all wars we had no business being in and you got quite a list going. Dubya is the only republican war president that I can think of that gave the order to go to war.
.
buffpilot,
I would say (i.e My Opinion) the best government we could get would be a Dem President with a frugle Rep controlled Congress (divided government).
Saints be praised, but on this point you and I largely agree. I think the best govt is a moderate Democratic President, a liberal Democratic House and a conservative GOP Senate.
Back to Clinton again (who’s not your buddy).
Who else did you have in mind? I can only think of Clinton. Help me out here.
Cantab,
Check this article out:
“If you buy the 1-year-lag theory, something even more interesting pops out of the data. In looking at the trend over the last year of each term (the right-most column in the previous table), we see that every time an administration changed from Democrat to Republican, the trend was negative. That is, the Democrat left a decelerating economy for the Republican. Every single time: Truman to Eisenhower, LBJ to Nixon, Carter to Reagan, and Clinton to Bush 43.”
“Conversely, every time an administration changed from Republican to Democrat, the trend was positive. That is, the Republican left an accelerating economy for the Democrat. Every single time: Eisenhower to JFK, Ford to Carter, and Bush 41 to Clinton.”http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/09/presidents_and_the_economy.html
Cactus,
How do you respond to this article?
“If you buy the 1-year-lag theory, something even more interesting pops out of the data. In looking at the trend over the last year of each term (the right-most column in the previous table), we see that every time an administration changed from Democrat to Republican, the trend was negative. That is, the Democrat left a decelerating economy for the Republican. Every single time: Truman to Eisenhower, LBJ to Nixon, Carter to Reagan, and Clinton to Bush 43.”
“Conversely, every time an administration changed from Republican to Democrat, the trend was positive. That is, the Republican left an accelerating economy for the Democrat. Every single time: Eisenhower to JFK, Ford to Carter, and Bush 41 to Clinton.”
http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/09/presidents_and_the_economy.html
Cactus,
I think your next book should be nothing but analysis of legislation. You should ignore the executive and ignore the party affliation of the House and Senate and go piece by piece of legislation on taxes, trade policy, interest rates, and spending and track it’s effect on the growth of our economy…..You know…In your spare time. 😉
Jimi,
Don’t forget Eisenhower to JFK — buff pointed out the benefit of handing over the new highway system plus a rebounding economy. Carter got a functioning economy (of course like in the movie airplane high oil prices were forming a line to whack him). And Clinton got an economy on the rebound with a major positive restructuring happening in the previous decade.
And with Obama, whoops, he got screwed.
Cantab,
Dubya is the only republican war president that I can think of that gave the order to go to war.
Forgot about Grenada?
Forgot about Libya?
Forgot about Panama?
Forgot about Desert Storm?
Forgot about a few covert wars in Central America?
You’re also equating war with foreign policy. I always thought that the hallmark of a successful foreign policy was getting your way without having to go to war. Nixon certainly had some foreign policy successes, as did Bush 41. Oh wait, Bush 41 also gave the order to go to war; but he also did a good job of keeping his head as the old Communists tried to regain control of Russia.
Cantab,
So if you think Clinton/Gore were following the GOP’s playbook, why was Bush running against the Clinton/Gore economic policies? Was Bush 43 running against the GOP economic playbook?
Clinton was following the standard DLC playbook, which was moderate and center. Republicans said that the 1993 tax hike would sink the economy. They appear to have been wrong about that. Clinton’s biggest political asset was his willingness to ditch policies that weren’t working for him. He raised taxes, he cut taxes, he increased spending, he cut spending. Clinton was never wedded to any one-size-fits-all policy.
Slugs,
Bush reversed Nafta? That’s news to me. Clinton may have even been more down on welfare then Cheney was. Clinton did a lot of things right on domestic policy other then his tax hike. Bush pretty much just tweeked it to get a better marginal rate. I think paying 1/3 of income to the federal government should be the max. Clinton thought it should be around 39 percent while Bush thought the right number was 35 percent. We’re all in the same neighborhood here. The democrat marginal rates of 50 to 75 percent is the bad old days that no serious person wants to go back to — except Cactus.
Bush 43 didn’t explicitly reverse NAFTA, but he did have a fairly protectionist record. And he gave us CAFTA, which was lame. I don’t think Bush supported NAFTA on economic grounds. I always thought his support was because of his sympathies for Mexican immigration. And I’m in a minority here, but I do give Bush credit for being pretty good on immigration. Or at least as good as political reality allows.
Cantab,
Republicans controlled the House and Senate during Clinton, No?
And also, if any Democrat should be rewarded for good economic performance it should be Clinton. LBJ had good intentions but it set an ugly tone for the future. JFK had he fulfilled two terms, I think would have some good numbers. Although I would say all Presidents have done some good things, and the American people have been lucky, and lived well considering some of the characters involved.
I wish I had the confidence that the left was correct. I don’t think they know how much I want them to be correct, since thats what our future looks like. The problem is, I don’t, as a matter of fact I don’t believe they believe it either.
Cantab,
Clinton thought it should be around 39 percent while Bush thought the right number was 35 percent. We’re all in the same neighborhood here. The democrat marginal rates of 50 to 75 percent is the bad old days that no serious person wants to go back to — except Cactus.
And in 1981 Reagan thought the top rate should be 50 percent. A few years later Democrats had to convince Reagan that the top rate should be 28 percent. It took some effort, but eventually Democrats got Reagan to agree to the lower rates.
Slugs,
Bush 43 didn’t explicitly reverse NAFTA
Well then how did he sort of reverse NAFTA.
Bush advanced free trade with his own programs. Clinton never did this. Bush broke from free trade on giving temporary protection to the steel industry but this policy has a time limit. Clearly he did this out of political expediency.
How about deleting your post and then reposting it under your user name.
Slugs,
A few years later Democrats had to convince Reagan that the top rate should be 28 percent
So they should have no problem extending Bush’s tax cuts or maybe increasing them to 28 percents. You know if democrats became advocates of low taxes and regulation I would vote for them. Remember, to me its about policy and ideology and not party.
I’ve always thought that the Bradley tax reform bill of 1986 was something for which Reagan never got enough credit. If there was a long run bump in the aggregate supply curve coming out of the Reagan years, you could probably convince me that it was due to the 1986 tax reform, which essentially undid all the bad aspects of the godawful 1981 tax “reform”.
well, back a ways Cantab was arguing that FDR’s numbers look good because he was starting from a low base (the economy left by Coolidge and Hoover).
But Juniors numbers look bad because he inherited Clinton’s recession.
The message appears to be “when confronted with facts you don’t like, say anything. say it loud enough and long enough and half the people will think you said something.
Coberly,
Look at the data. FDR inherited an economy at the bottom with a big upside potential. Bush inherted an economy at the top going into recession with a big downside. So just what contradiction do you think you found. And by the way you’re the one that having problems when confronted with the facts. I’m doing just fine.
Bush dragged his feet on implementing rules to allow Mexican truck drivers into the interieor of the US. And Bush used the old 9/11 scare card to limit professors and students from Canada from coming into this country.
I don’t know what the final count was, but about midway through the Bush years he had over 2000 special trade restrictions. Most were very targeted and rewarded cronies, but bad all the same.
Clinton and Gore believed in free trade enough to engage in a prime time television debate with Ross Perot. And Perot got waxed. I guess I missed that part where Cheney took on prominent protectionists. Probably because Cheney couldn’t put together a coherent economic argument for free trade.
I don’t know what you mean.
Oops! The above was me
Cantab:
You forgot the Greenspin word. Think about it and what both Clinton and Greenpsin agreed to in 1992.
Kosta:
I am going to disagree on sample size as the date collected is by year and then grouped by Presidents. However i would agree that looking at growth per year would be significant and just use reference lines for each term. A Times Series Plot would show the variations and a smoother could be added. If I have some time this week, I see if I can throw it up on MiniTab. I suspect by doing so, this will be a non-normal distribution of data.
Slugs – I could go for that one too
I think you understand my comment about sample size — it’s more focused on whether there are enough samples to include the analysis of additional factors in the data, such as the state of the economy when each President was elected. I’d love to see your analysis, I might even try one of my own.
Cantab
well, you certainly have your own approval. one might want to argue that FDR inherited an economy at the bottom because of Coolidge – Hoover policies, and that FDR’s policies are what turned it up. On the other hand Junior inherited an economy at the top — because of Clinton’s policies (including a tax raise you dismiss as Clinton clipping coupons from Reagan’s success, ignoring Bush Sr’s recession) — and after eight years of his own policies delivered the worst recession since… 1932. All of which can easily be explained away.
meanwhile, i did not mean to leave this unanswered: you said
“ Regression models assume causation — they don’t prove it.”
I don’t think this means what you think it means. Perhaps you could explain exactly what you mean and how it relates to the argument at hand.
Much like Cactus, Simon Kuznets performed a regressive analysis (back to 1869). Kuznets also said that “the welfare of a nation can scarcely be inferred from a measure of national income.”
coberly,
He means correlation does not mean causation. Which is entirely apt hear.
And Bush inherited the dot-com bubble from Clinton which popped shortly after he took office and then got hit by 9/11. IN every aspect Clinton had a huge tailwind behind him and Bush a huge headwind to fight. So why did Clinton perform so poorly? Or Bush so well?
What were the policies that made the difference?
But we get a test case with Obama and a 100% Dem controlled Congress. Tell me why again we have 10% unemployment? Obama promised it would not go above 8.2% He also promised to roll back the Bush era secreacy laws? And close Gitmo in a year? and leave Iraq? and escalate in Afghanistan (Oh wait, he’s doing that)….
I’m waiting for my 5% unemployment and 4% GDP growth like LBJ. ANYONE ACTUALLY believe we will get to either under Obama and the Dems even assuming he gets 8 years? Anyone? And if we do how will that effect global warming with that huge energy usage increase???
Islam will change
Cactus-
Sorry, it’s been years, but did you look at federal tax revenue per capita by administration? I don’t even know if there is such a stat. I am wondering if the effective rate of federal income tax may be higher than you think post-1981 compared with the high marginal rate, deduct everything of pre-1981. I am not totally convinced that high income earners paid a higher percentage of their incomes in federal taxes during “high tax” administrations than they do/did in “low tax” administrations. Any insight?
Coberly,
one might want to argue that FDR inherited an economy at the bottom because of Coolidge – Hoover policies, and that FDR’s policies are what turned it up.
I’m not defending Hoover but I think anyone taking over in 1933 had a tremendous opportunity to succeed and generate positive economic numbers. It’s like all of a sudden we forgot how to make automobiles, telegraphs, phones, and all the other recent advancement in technology. A country can grow very quickly when all it needs to do is to utilize existing technology and resources.
On the other hand Junior inherited an economy at the top — because of Clinton’s policies (including a tax raise you dismiss as Clinton clipping coupons from Reagan’s success, ignoring Bush Sr’s recession) — and after eight years of his own policies delivered the worst recession since… 1932. All of which can easily be explained away.
Don’t get hung up in the “on the one hand and on the other hand” type of thinking. The economy tends to return to its long term growth rate. With FDR it was below it so the natural tendency would be to expand but to the trends, and with the bubbles of the late 1990s getting back on the trend line meant contraction.
“ Regression models assume causation — they don’t prove it.”
I don’t think this means what you think it means. Perhaps you could explain exactly what you mean and how it relates to the argument at hand.
Reality is not generated by a model. If it was then Obama and Romer would not be looking like such jack asses right now.
Little John,
Data on who pays what is not alwys easy to find going back that far, but I do intend to start looking at tax issues soon. I need to for my second book.
(right now I’m busy with copy edits for book 1)
I suspect the answer to Buffy’s question about Obama’s not-so-good-until-now-performance is that he has done what Republican admins always do and most Dem admins have not done, which is to say, reduced the tax burden. LBJ did it at first too, but then, LBJ inherited a better, stronger economy than anyone in the sample. (At least in the short run, it’s better to follow JFK who inherited a crappy economy and made it into a monster than it is to follow GW who walked into the Oval Office promising to dismantle the policies that had produced the best growth in the previous 30 years, and then proceeded to drive into a ditch.)
Thanks. Second book? Can’t wait for the first one!
Cactus,
GW who walked into the Oval Office promising to dismantle the policies that had produced the best growth in the previous 30 years
What policies are you claiming he dismantled that hurt the economy? I don’t think you have a clue. If its tax rates and their effects on interest rates you lose on that one since Dubya had lower rates then his predecessor.
Maybe you think “no child left behind” caused the recession. Or is it a fool’s errand to ask for explanation from a data miner?
Cactus,
That is a truley disgraceful comment!
cactus,
JFK reduced the tax burden also – by a lot In almost every respect JFK has far more in common, policy wise, with Bush Jr than he does with Clinton, let alone Obama.
BTW, Once again what policies did GW dismantle that made Clinton so successful (which mean Bush did well also)?
Can you ever admit that Clinton just happened to be President when we went into the information age and the huge productivity increase that had? If Clinton had Lost in 1992 do you really beleive anyrthing would have been different in a Bush Sr second term economically?? If so, why???
Never once in all your rantings have you ever given me one set of data that would automatically say vote for a Dem vs. a Rep. No way would I want a Carter second term after his first term disaster. And after watching Obama here for a year on the job looking like Carter II why would I want another 4 years? Obama is much worse on the deficit than Bush Jr. Worse than Bush Jr. on Jobs. The same on the war. Worse on government corruption and expnasion. Very much worse since he has his own brownshirts in the SEIU and ACORN. Then add 24? 27? Czars…
I’ll trade Bush Jr economy for what we are getting now anyday.
Until you answer the ‘why’ question all you have is a lot of charts that show correlation without the causation.
Islam will change
Jimi,
Cactus is threat to the healthy minds of the American Yout.
I like his reference to LBJ above. What he does not say is that LBJ enacted a 10 percent surchage not until the last year of he term and then did not run for a second term. Nixon inherited this tax burden along with the recession that LBJ created. and now 40 years later Cactus is arguing LBJ’s tax that put Nixon’s economy underwater is not really because of LBJ’s policies.
The Revenue and Expenditure Control Act of 1968, signed by Johnson on June 28, 1968, imposed a 10 percent surcharge on individual and corporate income taxes. Low-income taxpayers were entirely exempt. As Johnson pointed out in his statement when signing the bill, a family of four earning less than $5,000 (about $28,000 in 2005 dollars) would pay nothing additional. A family making $10,000 (about $57,000 in 2005 dollars) would pay just $2 extra per week (about $11.50 in 2005 dollars).
Individual taxpayers completed their returns as usual, but a new line appeared on Form 1040. After entering tax due on line 12a, an individual taxpayer was prompted by line 12b to consult a special surcharge table and add the appropriate amount to his or her regular tax liability. For tax year 1968, the surcharge amounted to 7.5 percent of a taxpayer’s regular tax liability. (The 10 percent levy was prorated since it was in place for only nine months of the calendar year.) For corporations, the process was similar: A new line on Schedule J of Form 1120 required companies to add 10 percent to their regular tax bills (or a prorated amount, depending on the corporation’s tax year).
In 1969 Congress renewed the surcharge through the middle of 1970 but reduced it to 5 percent. Still, the tax raised substantial revenue — some 55 billion in constant 1992 dollars, according to a 2003 Treasury Department estimate. As legal scholar Kirk Stark pointed out in a paper examining Vietnam War tax policy, “The importance of the 1968 legislation to the U.S. budget situation in the late 1960s should not be underestimated.”
Buff,
Yep……I’d take Dubya over Obama any day. I like to fantacize about running Cheney for President in 2012 just to walk through the streets, sloshing through Brain and Scull fragments after the all the Left’s heads exploded.
I hope your right about this being Carter II, my read is this is going much, much worse!
Buff,
If Clinton had Lost in 1992 do you really beleive anyrthing would have been different in a Bush Sr second term economically?? If so, why???
Cactus does “who” and does a partial on “what” and with him you almost never get to “why”.
buff,
“Until you answer the ‘why’ question all you have is a lot of charts that show correlation without the causation. “
If I have time to write it, that’s next week’s post. And I’ll throw in something about Obama. I haven’t run the numbers, but I have a strong suspicion you’ve concocted a false inequivalence between Obama and GW.
Still, my guess is that you’ll refuse to accept that what causes the difference is what actually causes the difference.
Jimi,
“I hope your right about this being Carter II, my read is this is going much, much worse! “
As I wrote to Buffy, my guess is that it is going be much, much worse. It is going to look more like GW than Carter.
lj,
There’s an August pub date. Since my co-author has a reason to remain anonymous for the time being I’m not announcing anything quite yet. Hopefully soon.
One day I’ll try to write a post about the process – what little I’ve learned about the book publishing industry is fascinating.