I noticed two local businesses that have gone under that makes me question if the recession is really over. The first was a large art supplies store and the other a store that sold equipment for hiking, skiing, mountain climbing and other outdoor sports. The items they sold were not necessities but spending on things we don’t need to me is a sign of economic recovery.
A very minor epiphany. Extending the retirement age in Greece et. al. may make everyone (except aging Greeks) feel better about a bailout, but it’s unlikely to do anything much for Greece’s debt situation. There’s probably no way to give those workers real, Euro earning, tasks. The unretired workers are mostly going to sit around, drink coffee, BS, and watch TV while drawing a paycheck paid with borrowed money instead of sitting at home drinking coffee and watching TV while drawing a retirement check paid with borrowed money.
Codger, some estimates have the public sector work force at 1/4 overall. Their constitution provides for life time Govt jobs for those so employed.
But, of course, that could never happen here! Wait! How many teachers are sitting in empty rooms in NYC? What’s going on in CA, NY or MI, two very big unionized states?
***Interesting part is US bank direct exposure is only 1.57%***
Our banks have avoided an opportunity to lose a bundle of money? Not at all like them. Perhaps the private sector can pick up the slack. How much exposure do you think retirement funds might have?
Don’t count out our banks ability to screw up just yet. Remember Repo 105. They still may go broke overnight if they find out their financiers are broke.
As far as retirement and US retail, don’t really know except that their aren’t that many US foreign bond funds.
But don’t forgot our evil speculators. Everyone is short the euro. So a coordinated FED-ECB move could blow these people off quite easily.
Sounds like Trichet is not going for QE. I guess they fear currency run (which is also bank run) is the problem and when Ben did QE here the dollar dropped 5% the first day.
Don’t count out our banks ability to screw up just yet. Remember Repo 105. They still may go broke overnight if they find out their financiers are broke.
As far as retirement and US retail, don’t really know except that their aren’t that many US foreign bond funds.
But don’t forgot our evil speculators. Everyone is short the euro. So a coordinated FED-ECB move could blow these people off quite easily.
Sounds like Trichet is not going for QE. I guess they fear currency run (which is also bank run) is the problem and when Ben did QE here the dollar dropped 5% the first day.
Can’t speak for NY or MI, but IMO California’s problems have virually nothing to do with unions and a lot to do with Proposition 13. The problems are exactly what everyone with half a brain predicted 30 years ago when that monstrosity passed. What proposition 13 did was lock property tax increases in California way below inflation. What the proponents argued was that decreased tax revenues would lead to more efficient government which would then sort of fade away. Many of us predicted that would work exactly as well for right wing crazies as it did for Karl Marx. So, what we predicted was that as time went by the local tax base would fade away, but local government wouldn’t because when push comes to shove, people want schools, fire protection, police protection, etc. So, the state would then try to pick up the slack using sales tax, income tax revenue and fees. Eventually, even despite sky high fees and non-property taxes, the state would run out of revenue and turn to borrowing. And eventually no one would lend to them.
Looks to me that if this recession doesn’t have a much more robust recovery than most people expect, California will run out of altitude and luck simultaneously in about 16 months. Don’t be fooled by claims that California’s deficit and debt are much smaller than the PIIGS. That’s true. But California’s potential revenue sources are also a much smaller percentage of it’s GDP because FICA, the Federal income tax, etc preoccupy a lot of the “tax revenue space” that is available to sovereign countries.
California’s debt is the lowest rated of all the states.
=====
Speaking of unions, why are you right wingers so dead set against people organizing themselves to deal with tyrannical employers on a more equal basis? You applaud airheads like Glen Beck and Sarah Palin, but when people actually take effective action to better their lot, you are all over them.
=====
One other point wrt to Greece. You might want to read up on their history. The high government employee thing is due to a social compact made to get the Greeks to quit shooting at each other. And it wasn’t that long ago. Their last dictator is still decorating a jail cell serving a zillion years for a laundry list of wretched crimes. The problem seems to be that everybody in Greece (and Ireland and Portugal and …) is paid too much and the obvious way to fix that is to devalue the currency. But they can’t.
The Greek private sector surely can’t absorb all those government employees. If they lay them off as you would probably prefer, they will probably drag the Kalashnakovs out from under the bed and start shooting again.
Codger, Prop 13 had some early effect, but surely was over taken by the housoing bubble. Each new unit resets it’s own baseline, and there have many, many new units in the past 30+ years.
Describing CA’s deficit problem as based upon capping a single tax while ignoring spending, the other side of the equation, just ignores reality.
Unions? They can be good for society, but they are just as likely to be bad. See today’s results. Starting with the fundamental difference, Union Vs Right to work laws show their long term effects in our 50 states. The secondary and tertialry effects from just this union-driven law is enough to explain much, BUT the multiple other effects re: increased conflict between mgmt and workers, and the evidence of ill effects where unions have a long successful history, the rustbelt states, are myriad. If mgmt is so bad why are the right to work states dong better than their unionized bretheren?
RE: Greek history making poor and even more poor economic decisions, 25% of the work force being public employees, does not make sense in light of your CA example of prop 13. Focusing on a single marginal tax that mostly effect localities, and then completely ignoring the impacts of taking 25% of the work force out of the revenue stream and adding them to the expenditure side also completely ignores reality. For what ever reason the Greeks implemented this policy it is/was/and remains foolish.
So, adding more high dollar entitlements, taking more and more wage earners from the tax rolls (How many times do we need to here making income tax more progressive?), and adding more to and making them more reliant on the Govt dole is in the log run far more detrimental.
But in many minds here those kinds of statements are just hard hearted while ignoring the current and longer term historical references around them.
We’re Merika, it could never happen here! Sheesh!!!!!!
Codger, Prop 13 had some early effect, but surely was mitigated by the housing bubble. Each new unit resets it’s own baseline, and there have many, many new units in the past 30+ years.
Describing CA’s deficit problem as based upon capping a single tax while ignoring spending, the other side of the equation, just ignores reality.
Unions? They can be good for workers in specific situations and over time can improve conditions for the general populace, but when they become too large and influential they are just as likely to be bad. See today’s results in MI, OH, IL, etc.
Starting with the fundamental difference, Union Vs Right to work laws show their long term effects in our 50 states. The secondary and tertiary effects from just this one union-driven law is enough to explain much, BUT the multiple other union organization effects re: increased conflict between mgmt and workers, and the evidence of ill effects where unions have a long successful history, the rustbelt states, are myriad. If mgmt is so bad why are the right to work states dong better than their unionized bretheren?
RE: Greek history making poor and even more poor economic decisions, 25% of the work force being public employees, does not make sense in light of your CA example of prop 13. Focusing on a single marginal tax that mostly effects localities, and then in Greeced completely ignoring the impacts of taking 25% of the work force out of the revenue stream and adding them to the expenditure side also completely ignores reality. For what ever reason the Greeks implemented this policy it is/was/and remains foolish.
So, adding more high dollar entitlements, taking more and more wage earners from the tax rolls. Now 47%. How many times do we need to here making income tax even more progressive? And, adding more to and making them more reliant on the Govt dole is in the log run far more detrimental to that same group it was aimed at helping.
But in many minds here those kinds of statements are just hard hearted while ignoring the current and longer term historical references around them.
We’re Merika, it could never happen here! Sheesh!!!!!!
Codger, Prop 13 had some early effect, but surely was mitigated by the housing bubble. Each new unit resets it’s own baseline, and there have been many, many new units added to the tax base in the past 30+ years.
Describing CA’s deficit problem as based upon capping a single tax while ignoring spending, the other side of the equation, just ignores reality.
Unions? They can be good for workers in specific situations and over time can improve conditions for the general populace, but when they become too large and influential they are just as likely to be bad. See today’s results in MI, OH, IL, etc.
Starting with the fundamental difference, Union Vs Right to work laws show their long term effects in our 50 states. The secondary and tertiary effects from just this one union-driven law is enough to explain much, BUT the multiple other union organization effects re: increased conflict between mgmt and workers, and the evidence of ill effects where unions have a long successful history, the rustbelt states, are myriad. If mgmt is so bad why are the right to work states dong better than their unionized bretheren?
RE: Greek history making poor and even more poor economic decisions, 25% of the work force being public employees, does not make sense in light of your CA example of prop 13. Focusing on a single marginal tax that mostly effects localities, and then in Greeced completely ignoring the impacts of taking 25% of the work force out of the revenue stream and adding them to the expenditure side also completely ignores reality. For what ever reason the Greeks implemented this policy it is/was/and remains foolish.
So, adding more high dollar entitlements, taking more and more wage earners from the tax rolls. Now 47%. How many times do we need to here making income tax even more progressive? And, adding more to and making them more reliant on the Govt dole is in the log run far more detrimental to that same group it was aimed at helping.
But in many minds here those kinds of statements are just hard hearted while ignoring the current and longer term historical references around them.
We’re Merika, it could never happen here! Sheesh!!!!!!
i really know nothing about the Greek economy. But there is no economic reason why 25% or a hundred percent of workers being public employees would make a country less productive.
as for unions… excess power is always a problem. do you have a problem with excess power in the hands of wall street ‘bankers’?
the problem with taxes in this country is not that they are overprogressive, but that they are too low to pay for the spending.
the “fact” is that when the rich control too much of the economy, the economy shrinks. always has. there is probably an “economic” reason for that.
Dale, what’s this supposed to mean? “i really know nothing about the Greek economy. But there is no economic reason why 25% or a hundred percent of workers being public employees would make a country less productive.” The issue is not productivity but Govt borrowing and the concomitant deficits.
I usually complain about you spouting only opinion without any backup. Here’s an example” “the “fact” is that when the rich control too much of the economy, the economy shrinks. always has. there is probably an “economic” reason for that.”
Other than the rich and the Govt controlling the economy, when is it otherwise? We have an extremely detailed recent history of what happens when the Govt controls too much of the economy. Greece being a recent example, but there are a myriad of others.
Codger, Prop 13 had some early effect, but surely was mitigated by the housing bubble. Each new unit resets it’s own baseline, and there have been many, many new units added to the tax base in the past 30+ years.
Describing CA’s deficit problem as based upon capping a single tax while ignoring spending, the other side of the equation, just ignores reality.
Unions? They can be good for workers in specific situations, and over time can improve conditions for the general populace, but when they become too large and influential they are just as likely to be bad. See today’s results in MI, OH, IL, etc.
Starting with the fundamental difference, Union Vs Right to work laws show their long term effects in our 50 states. The secondary and tertiary effects from just this one union-driven law is enough to explain much, BUT the multiple other union organization effects re: increased conflict between mgmt and workers, and the evidence of ill effects where unions have a long successful history, the rustbelt states, are myriad. If mgmt is so bad why are the right to work states doing better than their unionized bretheren?
RE: Greek history making poor and even more poor economic decisions, 25% of the work force being public employees, does not make sense in light of your CA example of prop 13. Focusing on a single marginal tax that mostly effects localities, and then in Greece completely ignoring the impacts of taking 25% of the work force out of the revenue stream and adding them to the expenditure side also completely ignores reality. For what ever reason the Greeks implemented this policy it is/was/and remains foolish.
So, adding more high dollar entitlements, taking more and more wage earners from the tax rolls. Now 47%. How many times do we need to hear let’s make income tax even more progressive? And, adding more to and making them more reliant on the Govt dole is in the log run far more detrimental to that same group it was aimed at helping.
But in many minds here those kinds of statements are just hard hearted while ignoring the current and longer term historical references around them.
We’re Merika, it could never happen here! Sheesh!!!!!!
OK Dale, this one is just ignorant: “the problem with taxes in this country is not that they are overprogressive, but that they are too low to pay for the spending. ” Then slow the spending and raise the tax revenue. Do not do the inverse. The current and recent past policy.
At least Bush tried to control expansion of spending. There is absolutely no evidence of the same policy working in this admin. Bush’s policy had us on a path to balancing the budget. Another year or two and it would have looked like St. Bill’s. It almost worked then, it will work today. IF we had an economy similar to St. Bill’s his policy would work today, but guess what?
I don’t know of a time when “the government” wasn’t “the rich.” But an economy is relatively hard to control, the invisible hand and all. Where things get out of whack is when some interest gets too powerful a hand in controlling the conditions … mostly of who gets taxed and how much labor is paid. you get a growth in wealth at the top while you get an increase in poverty at the bottom until the bottom can no longer support the top. at which point some people lose their heads.
as i said, i know nothing about greece. but it would surprise me greatly if the bankers are not at the bottom of this somewhere… and their rememdy seems to be to impoverish the workers. maybe the workers had overreached… i don’t know… but the answer would have been in that case incremental adjustments. what they are doing now looks like overreach from the top.
as for making the government the employer of all labor… i probably wouldn’t like that even as much as you would. contrary to what the right tells itself, it’s us leftists who have a hard tme conforming to authoritarian rule. you’d get along fine as a government functionary. i would not. but there is no reason to suppose the government cannot run an economy, ipso facto. that’s just ideology, not economics… except insofar as economists have become whores.
as for my spouting opinion. we have seen what happens when you spout “facts” and then are asked to explain what, exatly, the facts have to do with your eternal Opinion.
MG, Assuming that you are referring to the Kent State incident, is your comment related to the other comments preceding yours? Why are you singling out “progressive and liberal blogs for such an oversight? Is the Kent State incident a common topic of discussion on other less than progressive blog sites, what ever that may be? Are you possibly using Kent State as an example of “big” government rather than recognizing it as an example of irresponsible government?
‘sfunny. i thought big government was the problem back then. vietnam and kent state and all. but then we got small government and the problems just got worse. some people never learn.
i have no lasting reason to prefer Democrats to Republicans. I prefer capitalism to socialism, in general. I don’t like big government.
But I like to think I can see the danger from criminals in whatever mask they are wearing. if you want to argue with me, it would be more productive if you argued cases and details, facts and their connections. Just repeating Republican talking points won’t get us very far.
And the facts do need to be somewhat better than “gasoline has 80 times as much energy per pound as batteries,” unless of course the question is do we want to fill up the gas tank in our airplane with gasoline or batteries.
It is irresponsible government that is ever the problem. Big nations require big governments in order to carry out the many tasks and coordinationg activities of such nations. The big govefrnment bashers are, and have always been, full of crap. They don’t focus on the irresponsible activities of any government other than the government that they’re not in favor of. Bush and Cheney may have been the most irresponsible executive office in national history. We won’t hear about their excapades because they cut taxes for the very wealthy. That’s the only goal of the big government nay sayers and they’ll be more than happy to cut any government program that does not directly benefit their own interests. You won’t hear them crying over the too big miltary budget of our too big government.
while i can’t claim to know the entire history of human economic arrangements, i have an intuition based on reading some history that governments ultimately fall into the hands of sociopaths… people like Bush and Cheney who simply have no place in their brains for anything but their own immediate self interest. I would not rule Clinton out of this category, so it’s not a question of “party.” We used to believe that checks and balances would protect us from a government of self-interested faction. But it seems that any determined faction with enough money can eventually find a way to buy what it wants, including perhaps especially the experts at telling the lies that the people want to hear.
How’s them Red Sox?
How to remove annoying new Goggle sidebare: http://www.seotools.com/hide-google-options/ Just download and — no more side bar — you don’t even have to do anything. 🙂
Nations’ Banking Systems Most Exposed to PIIGS Nations
Portugal
Banking Sector Asset Exposure: 14.08%
Total PIIGS Exposure: $64.54 billion
Size of Financial System: $458.38 billion
Direct Banking Sector PIIGS Exposure
Portugal: N/A
Ireland: $21.52 billion
Italy: $5.20 billion
Greece: $9.75 billion
Ireland
Banking Sector Asset Exposure: 13.5%
Total PIIGS Exposure: $90.378 billion
Size of Financial System: $671.45 billion
Direct Banking Sector PIIGS Exposure
Portugal: $5.43 billion
Ireland: N/A
Italy: $46.26 billion
Greece: $8.46 billion
France
Banking Sector Asset Exposure: 10.4%
Total PIIGS Exposure: $911.32 billion
Size of Financial System: $8.76 trillion
Direct Banking Sector PIIGS Exposure
Portugal: $44.74 billion
Ireland: $60.33 billion
Italy: $511.45 billion
Greece: $75.17 billion
Belgium
Banking Sector Asset Exposure: 7.93%
Total PIIGS Exposure: $118.89 billion
Size of Financial Sector: $1.498 trillion
Direct Banking Sector PIIGS Exposure
Portugal: $3.12 billion
Ireland: $60.77 billion
Italy: $29.86 billion
Greece: $3.62 billion
Netherlands
Banking Sector Asset Exposure: 6.79%
Total PIIGS Exposure: $243.59 billion
Size of Financial System: $3.585 trillion
Direct Banking Sector PIIGS Exposure
Portugal: $12.41 billion
Ireland: $30.82 billion
Italy: $68.73 billion
Greece: $11.89 billion
Germany
Banking Sector Asset Exposure: 6.18%
Total PIIGS Exposure: $703.795 billion
Size of Financial Sector: $11.3803 trillion
Direct Banking Sector PIIGS Exposure
Portugal: $47.38 billion
Ireland: $183.76 billion
Italy: $189.68 billion
Greece: $45 billion
Japan
Banking Sector Asset Exposure: 5.02%
Total PIIGS Exposure: $121.87 billion
Size of Financial System: $2.424 trillion
Direct Banking Sector PIIGS Exposure
Portugal: $4.22 billion
Ireland: $30.19 billion
Italy: $53.08 billion
Greece: $6.39 billion
Austria
Banking Sector Asset Exposure: 4.84%
Total PIIGS Exposure: $50.15 billion
Size of Financial Sector: $1.035 trillion
Direct Banking Sector PIIGS Exposure
Portugal: $2.79 billion
Ireland: $8.49 billion
Italy: $25.39 billion
Greece: $4.65 billion
United Kingdom
Banking Sector Asset Exposure: 4.53%
Total PIIGS Exposure: $417.86 billion
Size of Financial Sector: $9.223 trillion
Direct Banking Sector PIIGS Exposure
Portugal: $24.26 billion
Ireland: $187.51 billion
Italy: $76.87 billion
Greece: $15.09 billion
Spain
Banking Sector Asset Exposure: 3.65%
Total PIIGS Exposure: $149.8 billion
Size of Financial System: $4.101 trillion
Direct Banking Sector PIIGS Exposure
Portugal: $86.08 billion
Ireland: $15.66 billion
Italy: $46.79 billion
Greece: $1.27 billion
Denmark
Banking Sector Asset Exposure: 2.39%
Total PIIGS Exposure: $24.04 billion
Size of Financial System: $1.004 trillion
Direct Banking Sector PIIGS Exposure
Portugal: $283 million
Ireland: $20.75 billion
Italy: $513 million
Greece: $182 million
Chinese Taipei (Taiwan)
Banking Sector Asset Exposure: 2.32%
Total PIIGS Exposure: $4.32 billion
Size of Financial System: $185.59 billion
Direct Banking Sector PIIGS Exposure
Portugal: $45 million
Ireland: $3.77 billion
Italy: $243 million
Greece: $71 million
Spain: $192 million
Switzerland
Banking Sector Asset Exposure: 2.05%
Total PIIGS Exposure: $58.687 billion
Size of Financial System: $2.855 trillion
Direct Banking Sector PIIGS Exposure […]
I noticed two local businesses that have gone under that makes me question if the recession is really over. The first was a large art supplies store and the other a store that sold equipment for hiking, skiing, mountain climbing and other outdoor sports. The items they sold were not necessities but spending on things we don’t need to me is a sign of economic recovery.
MG. Thanks for posting that. It’s interesting. I can’t think of anything to say about it, but it IS interesting.
A very minor epiphany. Extending the retirement age in Greece et. al. may make everyone (except aging Greeks) feel better about a bailout, but it’s unlikely to do anything much for Greece’s debt situation. There’s probably no way to give those workers real, Euro earning, tasks. The unretired workers are mostly going to sit around, drink coffee, BS, and watch TV while drawing a paycheck paid with borrowed money instead of sitting at home drinking coffee and watching TV while drawing a retirement check paid with borrowed money.
Is there more context and a chart??
Why did they leave Spain debt out? It’s PIIGS, not PIIG.
Heard Spain has to roll over about $225B over the next two years. Plus they have new debt of double digit percent of GDP to sell.
Interesting part is US bank direct exposure is only 1.57%.
Dan,
Click on the link. There is no chart.
Codger, some estimates have the public sector work force at 1/4 overall. Their constitution provides for life time Govt jobs for those so employed.
But, of course, that could never happen here! Wait! How many teachers are sitting in empty rooms in NYC? What’s going on in CA, NY or MI, two very big unionized states?
***Interesting part is US bank direct exposure is only 1.57%***
Our banks have avoided an opportunity to lose a bundle of money? Not at all like them. Perhaps the private sector can pick up the slack. How much exposure do you think retirement funds might have?
Don’t count out our banks ability to screw up just yet. Remember Repo 105. They still may go broke overnight if they find out their financiers are broke.
As far as retirement and US retail, don’t really know except that their aren’t that many US foreign bond funds.
But don’t forgot our evil speculators. Everyone is short the euro. So a coordinated FED-ECB move could blow these people off quite easily.
Sounds like Trichet is not going for QE. I guess they fear currency run (which is also bank run) is the problem and when Ben did QE here the dollar dropped 5% the first day.
Don’t count out our banks ability to screw up just yet. Remember Repo 105. They still may go broke overnight if they find out their financiers are broke.
As far as retirement and US retail, don’t really know except that their aren’t that many US foreign bond funds.
But don’t forgot our evil speculators. Everyone is short the euro. So a coordinated FED-ECB move could blow these people off quite easily.
Sounds like Trichet is not going for QE. I guess they fear currency run (which is also bank run) is the problem and when Ben did QE here the dollar dropped 5% the first day.
Can’t speak for NY or MI, but IMO California’s problems have virually nothing to do with unions and a lot to do with Proposition 13. The problems are exactly what everyone with half a brain predicted 30 years ago when that monstrosity passed. What proposition 13 did was lock property tax increases in California way below inflation. What the proponents argued was that decreased tax revenues would lead to more efficient government which would then sort of fade away. Many of us predicted that would work exactly as well for right wing crazies as it did for Karl Marx. So, what we predicted was that as time went by the local tax base would fade away, but local government wouldn’t because when push comes to shove, people want schools, fire protection, police protection, etc. So, the state would then try to pick up the slack using sales tax, income tax revenue and fees. Eventually, even despite sky high fees and non-property taxes, the state would run out of revenue and turn to borrowing. And eventually no one would lend to them.
Looks to me that if this recession doesn’t have a much more robust recovery than most people expect, California will run out of altitude and luck simultaneously in about 16 months. Don’t be fooled by claims that California’s deficit and debt are much smaller than the PIIGS. That’s true. But California’s potential revenue sources are also a much smaller percentage of it’s GDP because FICA, the Federal income tax, etc preoccupy a lot of the “tax revenue space” that is available to sovereign countries.
California’s debt is the lowest rated of all the states.
=====
Speaking of unions, why are you right wingers so dead set against people organizing themselves to deal with tyrannical employers on a more equal basis? You applaud airheads like Glen Beck and Sarah Palin, but when people actually take effective action to better their lot, you are all over them.
=====
One other point wrt to Greece. You might want to read up on their history. The high government employee thing is due to a social compact made to get the Greeks to quit shooting at each other. And it wasn’t that long ago. Their last dictator is still decorating a jail cell serving a zillion years for a laundry list of wretched crimes. The problem seems to be that everybody in Greece (and Ireland and Portugal and …) is paid too much and the obvious way to fix that is to devalue the currency. But they can’t.
The Greek private sector surely can’t absorb all those government employees. If they lay them off as you would probably prefer, they will probably drag the Kalashnakovs out from under the bed and start shooting again.
Here are the economic forecasts for the EU nations.
http://ec.europa.eu/economy_finance/eu/forecasts/2010_spring_forecast_en.htm#forecasts-noneu
Here are the economic forecasts for the EU nations.
http://ec.europa.eu/economy_finance/eu/forecasts/2010_spring_forecast_en.htm
.
Here are the economic forecasts for the EU nations. This information was released on 5 May 2010.
http://ec.europa.eu/economy_finance/eu/forecasts/2010_spring_forecast_en.htm
.
Codger, Prop 13 had some early effect, but surely was over taken by the housoing bubble. Each new unit resets it’s own baseline, and there have many, many new units in the past 30+ years.
Describing CA’s deficit problem as based upon capping a single tax while ignoring spending, the other side of the equation, just ignores reality.
Unions? They can be good for society, but they are just as likely to be bad. See today’s results. Starting with the fundamental difference, Union Vs Right to work laws show their long term effects in our 50 states. The secondary and tertialry effects from just this union-driven law is enough to explain much, BUT the multiple other effects re: increased conflict between mgmt and workers, and the evidence of ill effects where unions have a long successful history, the rustbelt states, are myriad. If mgmt is so bad why are the right to work states dong better than their unionized bretheren?
RE: Greek history making poor and even more poor economic decisions, 25% of the work force being public employees, does not make sense in light of your CA example of prop 13. Focusing on a single marginal tax that mostly effect localities, and then completely ignoring the impacts of taking 25% of the work force out of the revenue stream and adding them to the expenditure side also completely ignores reality. For what ever reason the Greeks implemented this policy it is/was/and remains foolish.
So, adding more high dollar entitlements, taking more and more wage earners from the tax rolls (How many times do we need to here making income tax more progressive?), and adding more to and making them more reliant on the Govt dole is in the log run far more detrimental.
But in many minds here those kinds of statements are just hard hearted while ignoring the current and longer term historical references around them.
We’re Merika, it could never happen here! Sheesh!!!!!!
Codger, Prop 13 had some early effect, but surely was mitigated by the housing bubble. Each new unit resets it’s own baseline, and there have many, many new units in the past 30+ years.
Describing CA’s deficit problem as based upon capping a single tax while ignoring spending, the other side of the equation, just ignores reality.
Unions? They can be good for workers in specific situations and over time can improve conditions for the general populace, but when they become too large and influential they are just as likely to be bad. See today’s results in MI, OH, IL, etc.
Starting with the fundamental difference, Union Vs Right to work laws show their long term effects in our 50 states. The secondary and tertiary effects from just this one union-driven law is enough to explain much, BUT the multiple other union organization effects re: increased conflict between mgmt and workers, and the evidence of ill effects where unions have a long successful history, the rustbelt states, are myriad. If mgmt is so bad why are the right to work states dong better than their unionized bretheren?
RE: Greek history making poor and even more poor economic decisions, 25% of the work force being public employees, does not make sense in light of your CA example of prop 13. Focusing on a single marginal tax that mostly effects localities, and then in Greeced completely ignoring the impacts of taking 25% of the work force out of the revenue stream and adding them to the expenditure side also completely ignores reality. For what ever reason the Greeks implemented this policy it is/was/and remains foolish.
So, adding more high dollar entitlements, taking more and more wage earners from the tax rolls. Now 47%. How many times do we need to here making income tax even more progressive? And, adding more to and making them more reliant on the Govt dole is in the log run far more detrimental to that same group it was aimed at helping.
But in many minds here those kinds of statements are just hard hearted while ignoring the current and longer term historical references around them.
We’re Merika, it could never happen here! Sheesh!!!!!!
Codger, Prop 13 had some early effect, but surely was mitigated by the housing bubble. Each new unit resets it’s own baseline, and there have been many, many new units added to the tax base in the past 30+ years.
Describing CA’s deficit problem as based upon capping a single tax while ignoring spending, the other side of the equation, just ignores reality.
Unions? They can be good for workers in specific situations and over time can improve conditions for the general populace, but when they become too large and influential they are just as likely to be bad. See today’s results in MI, OH, IL, etc.
Starting with the fundamental difference, Union Vs Right to work laws show their long term effects in our 50 states. The secondary and tertiary effects from just this one union-driven law is enough to explain much, BUT the multiple other union organization effects re: increased conflict between mgmt and workers, and the evidence of ill effects where unions have a long successful history, the rustbelt states, are myriad. If mgmt is so bad why are the right to work states dong better than their unionized bretheren?
RE: Greek history making poor and even more poor economic decisions, 25% of the work force being public employees, does not make sense in light of your CA example of prop 13. Focusing on a single marginal tax that mostly effects localities, and then in Greeced completely ignoring the impacts of taking 25% of the work force out of the revenue stream and adding them to the expenditure side also completely ignores reality. For what ever reason the Greeks implemented this policy it is/was/and remains foolish.
So, adding more high dollar entitlements, taking more and more wage earners from the tax rolls. Now 47%. How many times do we need to here making income tax even more progressive? And, adding more to and making them more reliant on the Govt dole is in the log run far more detrimental to that same group it was aimed at helping.
But in many minds here those kinds of statements are just hard hearted while ignoring the current and longer term historical references around them.
We’re Merika, it could never happen here! Sheesh!!!!!!
CoRev
i really know nothing about the Greek economy. But there is no economic reason why 25% or a hundred percent of workers being public employees would make a country less productive.
as for unions… excess power is always a problem. do you have a problem with excess power in the hands of wall street ‘bankers’?
the problem with taxes in this country is not that they are overprogressive, but that they are too low to pay for the spending.
the “fact” is that when the rich control too much of the economy, the economy shrinks. always has. there is probably an “economic” reason for that.
Dale, what’s this supposed to mean? “i really know nothing about the Greek economy. But there is no economic reason why 25% or a hundred percent of workers being public employees would make a country less productive.” The issue is not productivity but Govt borrowing and the concomitant deficits.
I usually complain about you spouting only opinion without any backup. Here’s an example” “the “fact” is that when the rich control too much of the economy, the economy shrinks. always has. there is probably an “economic” reason for that.”
Other than the rich and the Govt controlling the economy, when is it otherwise? We have an extremely detailed recent history of what happens when the Govt controls too much of the economy. Greece being a recent example, but there are a myriad of others.
Codger, Prop 13 had some early effect, but surely was mitigated by the housing bubble. Each new unit resets it’s own baseline, and there have been many, many new units added to the tax base in the past 30+ years.
Describing CA’s deficit problem as based upon capping a single tax while ignoring spending, the other side of the equation, just ignores reality.
Unions? They can be good for workers in specific situations, and over time can improve conditions for the general populace, but when they become too large and influential they are just as likely to be bad. See today’s results in MI, OH, IL, etc.
Starting with the fundamental difference, Union Vs Right to work laws show their long term effects in our 50 states. The secondary and tertiary effects from just this one union-driven law is enough to explain much, BUT the multiple other union organization effects re: increased conflict between mgmt and workers, and the evidence of ill effects where unions have a long successful history, the rustbelt states, are myriad. If mgmt is so bad why are the right to work states doing better than their unionized bretheren?
RE: Greek history making poor and even more poor economic decisions, 25% of the work force being public employees, does not make sense in light of your CA example of prop 13. Focusing on a single marginal tax that mostly effects localities, and then in Greece completely ignoring the impacts of taking 25% of the work force out of the revenue stream and adding them to the expenditure side also completely ignores reality. For what ever reason the Greeks implemented this policy it is/was/and remains foolish.
So, adding more high dollar entitlements, taking more and more wage earners from the tax rolls. Now 47%. How many times do we need to hear let’s make income tax even more progressive? And, adding more to and making them more reliant on the Govt dole is in the log run far more detrimental to that same group it was aimed at helping.
But in many minds here those kinds of statements are just hard hearted while ignoring the current and longer term historical references around them.
We’re Merika, it could never happen here! Sheesh!!!!!!
OK Dale, this one is just ignorant: “the problem with taxes in this country is not that they are overprogressive, but that they are too low to pay for the spending. ” Then slow the spending and raise the tax revenue. Do not do the inverse. The current and recent past policy.
At least Bush tried to control expansion of spending. There is absolutely no evidence of the same policy working in this admin. Bush’s policy had us on a path to balancing the budget. Another year or two and it would have looked like St. Bill’s. It almost worked then, it will work today. IF we had an economy similar to St. Bill’s his policy would work today, but guess what?
corev
‘fraid i don’t see what’s ignorant about it. i agree “slow the spending and/or raise the taxes.” seems to me you just don’t want to raise the taxes.
“Bush tried to control expansion of spending” that’s why he started a war, and cut taxes.
CoRev
I don’t know of a time when “the government” wasn’t “the rich.” But an economy is relatively hard to control, the invisible hand and all. Where things get out of whack is when some interest gets too powerful a hand in controlling the conditions … mostly of who gets taxed and how much labor is paid. you get a growth in wealth at the top while you get an increase in poverty at the bottom until the bottom can no longer support the top. at which point some people lose their heads.
as i said, i know nothing about greece. but it would surprise me greatly if the bankers are not at the bottom of this somewhere… and their rememdy seems to be to impoverish the workers. maybe the workers had overreached… i don’t know… but the answer would have been in that case incremental adjustments. what they are doing now looks like overreach from the top.
as for making the government the employer of all labor… i probably wouldn’t like that even as much as you would. contrary to what the right tells itself, it’s us leftists who have a hard tme conforming to authoritarian rule. you’d get along fine as a government functionary. i would not. but there is no reason to suppose the government cannot run an economy, ipso facto. that’s just ideology, not economics… except insofar as economists have become whores.
as for my spouting opinion. we have seen what happens when you spout “facts” and then are asked to explain what, exatly, the facts have to do with your eternal Opinion.
I find it disgusting that the events of May 4, 1970 are overlooked by many so-called progressive and liberal blogs.
MG,
Assuming that you are referring to the Kent State incident, is your comment related to the other comments preceding yours? Why are you singling out “progressive and liberal blogs for such an oversight? Is the Kent State incident a common topic of discussion on other less than progressive blog sites, what ever that may be? Are you possibly using Kent State as an example of “big” government rather than recognizing it as an example of irresponsible government?
jack
‘sfunny. i thought big government was the problem back then. vietnam and kent state and all. but then we got small government and the problems just got worse. some people never learn.
CoRev
attempt to set up the parameters for discussion:
i have no lasting reason to prefer Democrats to Republicans. I prefer capitalism to socialism, in general. I don’t like big government.
But I like to think I can see the danger from criminals in whatever mask they are wearing. if you want to argue with me, it would be more productive if you argued cases and details, facts and their connections. Just repeating Republican talking points won’t get us very far.
And the facts do need to be somewhat better than “gasoline has 80 times as much energy per pound as batteries,” unless of course the question is do we want to fill up the gas tank in our airplane with gasoline or batteries.
It is irresponsible government that is ever the problem. Big nations require big governments in order to carry out the many tasks and coordinationg activities of such nations. The big govefrnment bashers are, and have always been, full of crap. They don’t focus on the irresponsible activities of any government other than the government that they’re not in favor of. Bush and Cheney may have been the most irresponsible executive office in national history. We won’t hear about their excapades because they cut taxes for the very wealthy. That’s the only goal of the big government nay sayers and they’ll be more than happy to cut any government program that does not directly benefit their own interests. You won’t hear them crying over the too big miltary budget of our too big government.
Jack
while i can’t claim to know the entire history of human economic arrangements, i have an intuition based on reading some history that governments ultimately fall into the hands of sociopaths… people like Bush and Cheney who simply have no place in their brains for anything but their own immediate self interest. I would not rule Clinton out of this category, so it’s not a question of “party.” We used to believe that checks and balances would protect us from a government of self-interested faction. But it seems that any determined faction with enough money can eventually find a way to buy what it wants, including perhaps especially the experts at telling the lies that the people want to hear.