Southern Border or Ukraine Issues?
I believe the decision has already be made. The US is in for both issues be it the Southern Border or Ukraine..
This is something I played with in February 2024. It was long then and it is not shorter today. I did add two graphs which help make my point. The US and Mexican borders are not open. And with the aid of Mexico, the border crossing have become more difficult.
Keep in mind one other factor. The Fertility Rate is about 1.62. To maintain a stable population of replacement, a rate of 2.1 should be a goal. Otherwise, the US may find itself in a bad predicament as other countries when it comes to Labor. Not replacing people as can impact the population of Labor.
Thom Hartmann poses the question of which issue should be resolved.
~~~~~~~~
“Should Democrats Trade the Southern Border for Ukraine?” Daily Take, Radio Personality Thom Hartmann, December 2023
If the GOP’s price for aid for Ukraine and Israel is to stop the flow of immigrants into this country for year or so, I say pay the ransom…
It may be time for Democrats to engage in some good-old-fashioned backroom dealmaking. If they do it right, they can strip Republicans of one of their most potent electoral issues while setting the stage for true reform of what has become a true American crisis.
Russian President Putin pushes Donald Trump to sabotage US aid to Ukraine. Trump passes the word along to Republicans that anybody who doesn’t go along with him will face a primary challenger.
Trump just doubled down on it one weekend in New Hampshire, praising Putin up one side and down the other while quoting Orbán and Hitler. Immigration by nonwhite people “poisons the blood” of a nation. Republicans plans?
In an attempt to appease Trump and Putin, Republicans in the Senate claim they’re putting together a “security” deal to send foreign and military aid to Ukraine and Israel while also “securing” our southern border from immigrants and asylum seekers.
Democrats first dismissed the proposed “deal” as bad-faith bargaining, pointing out the Republicans were demanding “poison pill” radical changes to our asylum and immigration policies and border security without being willing to engage in any sort of discussion about actual reform of our broken systems.
And broken they are. The last successful attempt at comprehensive immigration reform, The Immigration Reform and Control Act (IRCA or Simpson–Mazzoli), happened in 1986. Ever since then, Republicans have opposed or obstructed every good-faith effort by Democrats to come up with a bipartisan solution to the crisis on our southern border. And, yes, it is a crisis.
Republicans don’t want a solution because having a border crisis involving brown-skinned people works out really well for them, as it has for rightwing governments all across the world.
Before I go on, I just finished this redo of a post on immigration into the US, who makes it, and who is rejected. What the Republican mouth pieces are quoting is not true. My post and the graphs depict quite the opposite of what Republicans claim to be an open border. For example Border enforcement . . .
US Immigration: How many people are coming to the US and where are they coming from? Angry Bear, by USA Facts graph.
And illegal immigrant enforcement . . .
US Immigration: How many people are coming to the US and where are they coming from? Angry Bear, by USA Facts graph.
In the past such rhetoric worked with the masses and it is working in the US. The borders are not as open as the Republicans are claiming (see their comments below). But does a false rhetoric give the impression there are larger than realities issues at the border? It appears so as many people believe the Republican noise on immigration.
~~~~~~~~
Viktor Orbán rose to power as Hungary’s “soft fascism” dictator by pointing to the brown-skinned Syrian refugees who were fleeing Putin’s bombing of that country. He was promising to “build a wall” along Hungary’s southern border to keep them out; it’s a promise he has kept.
Across the rest of Europe, rightwing parties are doing as Trump and Orbán did and pointing to brown-skinned immigrants as the largest and most immediate threat to the “blood and soil” of their nations. They include the neofascist Brothers of Italy (which now runs that country) and the Lega party, the Swiss People’s Party (Switzerland’s largest), the Finns Party in Finland, the National Rally (formerly the National Front) in the Netherlands, Alternative for Deutschland (AfD) in Germany, the United Kingdom Independence Party in the UK, and the Freedom Party in Austria.
In an apparent homage to Ron DeSantis’ shipping asylum-seekers to Martha’s Vineyard and New York, Russian President Putin has been sending brown-skinned immigrants to the Finnish border in such numbers that the Finns have been forced to close all the border crossings they share with Russia (an 832-mile-long stretch).
Russia is apparently now playing the role of human traffickers, helping these refugees from Kenya, Morocco, Pakistan, Somalia, Syria and Yemen find unmonitored places along the border where they can sneak across, correctly believing that a flood of refugees will politically upset Finland and help out the pro-Putin rightwing parties there.
On this side of the Atlantic, the issue of the browning of America has been panicking white supremacists since the Reagan administration, when the change to our immigration laws in 1965 with the Hart-Cellar Act — which ended racial immigration quotas going back to 1921 that were designed to keep America white — was becoming obvious. The issue to many?
In 1960, 84 percent of all immigrants to the US were white, as the 1921 law required. By 2017, only 13.2 percent of immigrants were white.
Should it then surprise anybody that the white supremacists making up the base of the GOP are flipping out about immigration? Or that Republican politicians would know this and hammer it at every opportunity, while refusing to participate in any real solutions because the “border crisis” works to their political advantage? The Republican advertised political impact . . .
This is, after all, foundational to the “great replacement theory” Trump, Alex Jones, David Duke, and multiple Republican politicians have been endorsing ever since “very fine people” were chanting “Jews will not replace us [with Black or Hispanic people]” in Charlottesville.
Republican rhetoric on the issue has become is so predictable in the past, Richard Haas, normally a reasonable voice on foreign policy issues, had to be corrected on Fareed Zakaria’s GPS show when he said Democrats favor an “open border policy.”
Indeed, it is Libertarians who believe all countries should have open borders, or that more immigrants coming to America is a good thing because it increases the supply of low-wage labor. Labor, businesses so love. For example, Rand Paul has sponsored legislation increasing immigration to the US.
But that hasn’t stopped Republicans from inviting as many people as possible to come to America, by proclaiming
the US border is “wide open”
because of Democratic Party policies. Or, so they say.
While no elected Democrat I can find has ever called for “open borders,” Republicans keep saying Democrats are for open borders, Democrats have gotten their way, and the southern border is now wide open.
Thus, it is true two factors have driven a lot of migration over the past few decades (climate change wiping out farmland, and political dysfunction and gangs caused by the Reagan administration illegally devastating the governments of El Salvador, Honduras and Guatemala). The main driver of would-be immigrants and refugees today is the Republican Parties propaganda itself.
Lacking any actual, substantive economic issues to run on, the GOP has decided to fall back on a familiar ploy. Scare white people that the brown people are coming for them and/or their jobs. Back in the 1950s and 1960s, I remember well how the GOP’s pitch to white people was Black people wanted “our” jobs. Now it’s brown people from south of the border.
Trump did this in the most crude, vulgar, and racist way possible from his first entrance into the Republican primary through the end of his presidency and to this day. It frightened enough white voters, it got him into office once. The GOP is hoping they can repeat that trick in 2024.
In doing so, they’re playing with fire. Their lies about American policies are causing refugees to put their lives and their families in danger.
The truth is that Joe Biden never “opened” our southern border. “Open borders” have never been his policy or the Democratic Party’s policy or, indeed, the policy of any elected Democrat or Democratic strategist in post-1921 American history. And the above graphs provide evidence of border restrictions.
Everybody understands and agrees that for a country to function it must regulate immigration, and its borders must have a reasonable level of integrity. Everybody. But you’d never know that from watching Fox “News” or listening to rightwing podcasts or hate radio whenever there is a Democrat in the White House.
Republicans are playing a very dangerous game here. By loudly proclaiming “their” lie that Biden has “opened” the southern border and is “welcoming” immigrants and refugees “with open arms.” They are creating the very problem they’re pointing to.
Just google “open border” and “congressman,” “congresswoman,” or “senator” and you’ll get a list of Republican politicians too long to print. These are the quotes that coyotes — human smugglers — print out and distribute to desperate people in Central and South America as advertisements to get people to trade their lives’ savings for transportation to the Rio Grande.
At the top of the list claiming open borders, you’ll find the Republican demagogues:
— Ted Cruz wants everybody south of our border to know that the “Biden Open Border Policy [is] A Very Craven Political Decision”;
— Rick Scott wants everybody to know that “Americans Don’t Want [Biden’s] Open Borders”;
— Marco Rubio says there’s “Nothing Compassionate About Biden’s Open Border Policies”;
— Rand Paul is so extreme he tells us Senator Rubio “is the one for an open border”;
— Josh Hawley says “Biden’s Open Border Policy Has Created a Moral Crisis”;
— Tom Cotton “Insists the Border is Wide Open”;
— Ron Johnson wants the world to know that “Our National Security is at Risk Because Democrats have Turned Border Security into a Partisan Issue”;
— Marjorie Taylor Greene “BLASTS Open Border Hypocrites”;
— Mo Brooks opposes “Socialist Democrats’ Open Border Policies for Helping Kill Americans”;
— Lauren Boebert says the “Root Cause” of the open border crisis “is in the White House”;
— Matt Gaetz “revealed a complex and deceitful agenda by Joe Biden’s Democrat administration to evade our Southern Border law enforcement”;
— Gym Jordan says “Biden’s Deliberate Support of Illegal Immigration Could Lead to Impeachment”;
— Kevin McCarthy says the Biden Administration has “Utterly Failed” to secure the “open border”;
— Elise Stefanik proclaims “Biden’s Open Border Policies have been a Complete Disaster.”
— Tom Cole’s website features “Biden’s Open Border America”;
— Bob Goode brags about introducing legislation named the “Close Biden’s Open Border Act”;
— John Rose “Calls Out Biden’s Open Border Policies”;
— Paul Gosar claims Biden is “Destroying America with His Open Border Policies”;
— Roger Williams complains about the “Democrats’ Open Border Problem”;
— Tom Cole wants the world to know that Biden’s “open border policies have given the green light to migrants and bad actors from around the world…”;
— Gus Bilirakis “Denounces Dangerous Open Border Policies on the House Floor”;
“Should Democrats Trade the Southern Border for Ukraine?” February 2024, Angry Bear
No trade. Democrats should be answering Republicans and trump with the truth about borders. It is apparent.
Great post!
Anyone who uses the terms “open borders” or “socialist Democrats” is either ignorant or lying.
Joel:
It is political nonsense promulgated by Republicans to scare people and win an election for bigots, racists, and the January 6 insurrectionists and those (Republicans) who prompted the attack on the Capitol. Just think what SCOTUS would be like today, if insurrectionists had also attacked the Supreme Court. The ninety-day Army wonder Alito would not be so brazen. I did not see many black insurrectionists at the Capitol either. What do you think the white insurrectionists would think of our black SCOTUS Justice?
Much of this is white American panicking and Republican politicians playing to their fears.
I rewrote much of Thom’s article and added the graphs as well as other input. I probably should have credited him by saying “as taken from.”
“To maintain a stable population of replacement, a rate of 2.1 should be a goal.”
Why should we not look forward to the advantages of a smaller population?
@Arne,
Who will support the retired Americans? There are disadvantages, too. Do the math.
This can work with a replacement rate that includes a more generous immigration policy. We don’t need to mint more people, we can import people and provide them with opportunities to realize their potential.
Yes Joel:
Replacement rate means just that. Fertilization rate is far lower. US women and men are not reproducing enough to replace themselves or more. There is a gap between the two. We need input from other nations so our genetics do not go stale (which is a long way off). Maybe the next?
“Many were immigrants or refugees, from Victor Hugo, W.H. Auden and Vladimir Nabokov to Nikolas Tesla, Marie Curie and Sigmund Freud. At the top of this pantheon sits the genius’s genius: Einstein. His “miracle year” of 1905, when he published no fewer than four groundbreaking scientific papers, occurred after he had emigrated from Germany to Switzerland.” The Secret of Immigrant Genius, January 2016 WSJ
We could obtain more Hugos or Einsteins, etc. in the process of immigration to the US.
joel
i like to make a distinction between doing the math and doing the arithmetic.
math implies you know what you are talking about. What is the unemployment rate right now? How many “jobs” are really worth doing? Who is taking about a four day work week? What percent of your income goes to food. Or shelter, if you could get the crooks out of the housing business? How many jobs is AI supposed to replace?
Given all that and the magic of financial instuments that move money across time allowing people to pay for their own retirements in advance, as they always have before people totally ignorant of what “money” is (hint: it’s not “cash” I think we can manage to support our ageing population with a smaller workforce. Oddly enough so do the Social Security actuaries who are paid to know about such things.
Arne:
As baby boomers check out of Labor and die off, there is a large Labor gap left in the nation. One which needs to be filled again to support Labor input to the various needs which include the garbage men or women today up to the scientists and doctors needed for tomorrow. Fertilization rate is already at ~1.7 and a 2.1 replacement rate fills the gap which is not being filled with reproduction.
The “300 Million and Counting” author Joel Garreau would tell you, the nation can easily absorb more immigrants. We do not lack for room. We can educate them, and they are far more eager than the domestic produced brand. To your point, European countries are already suffering from a lack of Labor. We have not reached a point where Labor or human intellect can be replaced. It never will be replaced.
Bill,
I think I agree with you, but let me try to reframe:
we need to tell the truth, but don’t expect it to change anything. the R’s have the means and skills to lie about everything better than we can tell the truth about it.
do’t expect people to change their “racism” . it is in the genes..literally. and do recognize that admitting very large number of refugees has not gone well in countries that were initially open to it.
do not buy into the “falling population” worry. we are already overcrowded, and a smaller population can support a smaller population. i am not sure that a smaller population can defend itself militarily or “economically” from a larger population with advanced technology…but the larger population comes with decreased quality of life…except perhaps for those with the means and taste for plastic toys.
where does that leave us?…i dunno, but off the top of my head i would first want to try to find a way to deal with the group of ant-immigration terrorists you mention: they are evil people and they represent a war against “government of the people by the people for the people.”
and “trading the border for Ukraine” is a “depth of depravity” idea.
and in the interest of “bipartisanship”: the recent call (according to news sources) by a Democrat Congresswoman to “don’t vote for Biden” tells me that some on the Left are too stupid …too stupid for what? well, for me to listen too, anyway, in spite of my up-to-now support for them.
actually it appears to be Digby I agreed with.
@Joel
I have done the math as has Dean Baker.
When I do the math, I use the numbers from the Social Security Reports. Although fertility is at a record low, they expect it to go back up. Of course, that assumption is only pertinent to the question of how many immigrants do we need to maintain the population. That was not my question.
I have become concerned that our brand of capitalism needs a growing population to work adequately, but I don’t think it takes a growing – nor stable – population to maintain the population’s standard of living. We throw away enough food to feed everyone. We have enough roofs for everyone – just not configured as needed. We may never get down to 15 hours per week as Keynes predicted, but we have no need to work 40 hours per week to produce what is actually needed by society.
When labor becomes scarce wages will rise. I can see the possibility that the middle class will be hollowed out, but the math does not support your assertion that there will be inadequate labor to support the retired.
@Arne,
” . . . the math does not support your assertion that there will be inadequate labor to support the retired.”
Actually it does. The Trust Fund will run out in ca. 2033 and at that point, SS benefits will drop to 78% of projections. That’s math. For most retired Americans, SS is most or all of the income they have now, and dropping that by 22% will make it inadequate for them.
I realize there are alternatives to increased immigration, like raising SS taxes, but there is no political appetite for raising taxes in America. What other solutions do you have in mind besides increasing the number of workers or reducing benefits? And besides Baker’s wishcasting on future productivity growth?
Joel
no appetite for tax increase: that’s because they are greedy and stupid. in the first place it’s not a “tax” increase. it is a mandatory savings and insurance contribution..because experience has shown they are too stupid to do it if it is not mandatory. like car insurance or home insurance. they can’t understand that it is the money they will need to pay for their own longer lifetime. they think…or believe anyway, because they have been told… that the young are paying for the old.
believe that if you want to, but don’t call it “the math”.
If throughput due to productivity increases from various sources as witnessed in the past, there is a chance labor input will be adequate with increases in demand. That is really not the question (I believe). The US is not like countries in Europe which are smaller and have greater numbers per square mile. And that is not the question either. Replacement rate is exactly that. It does not imply growth in the population.
Furthermore, there is a need for additional labor by humans today and probably tomorrow too.
New genetic input may play a role here too.
In support of your commentary.
@Bill,
Should have written “22%.” Fixed it. The rest of my comment stands.
Fuzzy numbers … tell the story you want to tell
Your troubles with math are nothing compared to mine
not to comlicate things too much for you, but yes it is true that “the young” will need to produce the things and services that “the old” need. but it has always been that way. the now old cared for their own then-old, and their own children and built the infrastructure that made their own children richer so that their then grown up children could do the same for them (the now old) and their (the now grown up “young”) children… and so on through about a thousand generations so far.
after we invented industrial empires and financial instruments when families no longer could count on each other for support we needed a new financial instrument so “the future old” could “pay for” their own old age. this is not understood by people ignorant of how money works…people rapidly becoming ignorant of what “care for” means.
anyway, just to pour salt in your wounds, this was all put down in writing about two or three thousand years ago “Honor your father and mother so your life in the land will be long. Try to contemplate that even though it is recorded in a “religious” book. why did they think it was necessary to remind themselves of that very basic fact of life? and why did that famous man in the first century need to remind them that it was “all about the money”?
otherwise just keep repeating the meme of the day. soon appearing on a cereal box near you.
Pretty sad commentary that there’s so much adultruss money-grubbing, false-witness bearing lying, cheating, coveting, stealing, killing, working on Saturday … in the name of god that a list needs to be drawn up and posted everywhere to remind the monkeys not to do those things …
Ten
I hate to find myself boring people with “defense of religion” as most people who call themselves religious seem to be rather obnoxious.
but here is my take: it seems to me that if there is a “god” in the sense of “creator of the universe” he does not seem to me to be interested in “divine intervention” or forcing or bribing people to “behave.” but he would like to see them learn what “good” means “on their own.” but since he does not use divine intervention to force outcomes, he relies on what people themselves come up with to influence each other. a list of “suggestions” that tend to produce social harmony and personal sanity strikes me as about the best we can do. as a serial backslider myself, i have benefitted from reminders myself from time to time from people a little further along the way. (like street signs.)
Ten Bears
“fuzzy numbers” sounds to my ear a bit like “fuzzy math” which does not mean what George Bush II thought it meant. It has something to do with why Japanese trains run on time.
LOL ~ Nice analogy, and that is exactly what I meant
We could learn a lot about caring for the olds from the Japanese, though I hear of late the youngs are slacking there too
Don’t mistake me, after fifty years of paying into I’m happy to have it. All-the-moreso as I never thought I would …
referring to my last comment, i want to try to make clear that i think the people posting the ten commandments in classrooms don’t have any interest in “the good” themselves.
except as a means to sucker people into using a false idea of it as an excuse to harm themselves and others.
arne
thank you.
It is technically correct that we do not have an open border. However, the accusation also has some common sense merit. In the “debates” leading up to the Democratic primaries before the 2020 election, a moderator asked for a show of hands on who would not deport the undocumented (or words to that effect), and all of the candidates, including Joe Biden, raised their hands. In fact, under the Biden Administration, there has not been a serious effort to deport the undocumented and those applying for asylum are allowed to stay during the years required to adjudicate their applications whether they have illegally entered the country or not. Many of those people have no legitimate claim to asylum and know it but also know that if they can cross the border, they can stay. Some swim the river and many (probably more) overstay visas. All are here illegally.
Interestingly, the Obama administration had a vigorous deportation record.
@Jack,
“In fact, under the Biden Administration, there has not been a serious effort to deport the undocumented and those applying for asylum are allowed to stay during the years required to adjudicate their applications whether they have illegally entered the country or not.”
“According to new datapublished last month, the Biden Department of Homeland Security (DHS) has removed a higher percentage of arrested border crossers in its first two years than the Trump DHS did over its last two years. Moreover, migrants were more likely to be released after a border arrest under President Trump than under President Biden.
In absolute terms, the Biden DHS is removing 3.5 times as many people per month as the Trump DHS did.”
https://www.cato.org/blog/new-data-show-migrants-were-more-likely-be-released-trump-biden
Also too:
“A few weeks ago, Republicans, directed by Trump, sank their own border security bill that contained a wish list of GOP security-only proposals, which Democrats helped negotiate as a first step to gain control of the migrant flows at the southern border. But as soon as Trump saw that the bill would pass with majority Democratic support, he knew he would not be able to weaponize the issue with a solution on the horizon. This sorry episode proves that Trump and the MAGA-controlled House leadership are not interested in solutions — only the ability to use the border and immigration as political fodder.”
https://thehill.com/opinion/immigration/4497637-biden-is-trying-to-fix-trumps-broken-immigration-system/
@Jack,
The accusation of “open borders” has some common sense merit as GOP propaganda. It has no merit as a statement of reality. So far this fiscal year (through April 2024), immigration judges have issued removal and voluntary departure orders in 35.7% of completed cases, totaling 170,165 deportation orders.
@Joel,
As I tried to indicate, the rate of dispositions doesn’t come anywhere near keeping up with persons awaiting them.
@Jack,
170,000 deportations this fiscal year so far is not “open borders.” Saying that the Biden administration supports open borders is just a lie. The reason that the system isn’t keeping up is that Congress isn’t funding it and there aren’t enough immigration judges. Can’t blame Biden for that. Not keeping up with people awaiting decisions is not “open borders.”
Joel:
He will be blamed if no one says differently. Challenging Repub remarks that are listed in the post and talking about what is being done on both sides of the border.
@ Joel,
You’re technically right and politically wrong. I don’t say that’s fair. And Biden did, along with the other candidates, commit to NOT deporting undocumented residents. That’s where the accusation began.
@Jack,
“And Biden did, along with the other candidates, commit to NOT deporting undocumented residents. “
Well, if he did “commit,” then he lied, because hundreds of thousands have been deported during his presidency.
It is quaintly naive to consider Biden raising his hand during a Q&A to be a commitment to policy after election. I don’t believe for a second that Biden was signaling open borders by that gesture. That’s just GOP propaganda rubbish.
“Can’t blame Biden for that.” Sure you can! Where does our culture require politicians to be honest? All those people are in our country and Biden is President! It’s sort of like the inflation “issue”.
@Jack,
“Sure you can! “
Well, yes, if you’re a liar. I’m not. YMMV.
Jack:
I will call one point in favor of Biden, apprehension and turned away. The rate is the greatest for the Biden Administration since 1980, as shown on charts I posted as taken from USA Facts
.
@Joel and Bill,
I don’t dispute any of your points but continue to feel that the GOP propaganda stings. People at large do not look at matters in as nuanced a fashion as you do. Here, in Chicago, many African Americans are angry at the concern and financial assistance offered migrants in contrast to that offered to the poverty stricken and disadvantaged in their community.
As I’ve pointed out previously, many union members are reacting to the competition posed by cheap labor, particularly in the building trades. As I stated initially, it is technically correct that we do not have an open border but even the Biden Administration seems to be aware of its political problem from the perception that if it’s not “open”, it’s “loose”. That’s why they tried to cut the deal that Trump stymied and are now considering “executive action” to restrict migration. Regardless of Trump’s record, his propaganda seems to be working even with our Hispanic citizen voters. I don’t say it’s fair. I do say it’s real.
Jack:
The whole list of comments made by Republicans on there being an open border where people cross without apprehension is a false narrative. In Chicago, I worked as a Laborer with Mertas Construction each year. I was non-union also working with union laborers. I just paid for the application and was given a receipt which my dad and the Union Pres just told me to show it if challenged. I was working Summers. Non Union Labor has always been in existence.
The point of the post being an Open Border is a political lie by Republican commentary listed below and as also explained in the Graphs. If anything, Biden needs to speak out more on what he is doing and the Mexican President is doing to divert immigrants.
When crossing the border out of Mexico, I would spend an hour or so crossing the border. It was hell. El Paso was fenced off.
@Bill,
The asylum seekers are generally allowed to stay and people here on expired visas greatly exceed those successfully crossing the border. Then there are those who are granted “probation” like the Venezuelans who make up the bulk of the legally resident migrants in the Chicago area. Whatever your experience may have been back in the day, these days the unions complain particularly about construction labor and roofing. Arborists are also impacted.
Interestingly, migrants seem to be particularly opposed by Hispanic residents along our southern border. I wonder how many of them got their “papers” in the Reagan amnesty of 1986.
Jack:
Did you change your name purposely?
No, I forgot it and the site demanded one before I could post. I usually don’t have to.
ok. Did you try just straight Jackd? You do not have to, just curious.
Jack:
They still checked jobs downtown Chicago. I paid my dues once and never joined. Due to Republican lies (as listed in this post), I believe it is over blown because it is Biden and trump is his opponent.
It is Trump appealing to the ignorant which may be a crucial voting bloc.
Jack:
Kind of a scary thought. And they will the first to be whining when he starts to take things away. We, I need to defeat him bigly and make sure he can never do what he did again.
Jackd
a typo or awkward construction in your first comment here, ” a show of hands on who would not deport the undocumented…,” makes it hard to understand what you are really trying to say (or maybe it’s just me misreading.)
certainly it’s true that the R’s are getting great mileage out of the issue.
as for”illegally here”..that is a tautology. we created the law to make it illegal for desperate people to be here. the law is nothing if not “legal.” it is also capable of being cruel and stupid.
@coberly,
Dale, mea culpa on the English. They all signified that they would NOT deport undocumented people. I thought it was clear that they thought they were appealing to Hispanic voters. “illegally here” is not a tautology. Every country in the world had residence requirements. If one doesn’t comply with the law’s requirements, one is illegally there. If you come into my house without my permission and/or refuse to leave when I tell you to, you are illegally in my house. Of course the law is capable of being cruel and stupid. That doesn’t mean that refusal to have an open border is cruel and stupid. Details matter, don’t they?
Jackd
yes details matter. your details or mine?
as for”illegal” as a tautology. it becomes one when we are talking about what the law should be. it is a tautology to claim that “illegals” should be deported because they are “illegal.”
as for who is in your house, it is ridiculous to claim that is analogous to who is in your country.
I am unhappy with huge numbers of people coming into this country, but not because I am a racist. I would be unhappy if they were my relatives.
You may think it’s ridiculous; the law all over the world doesn’t agree with you.
Jackd @3:17
thank you for the clarification. it appears the misunderstaning was mine, probably because I was expecting you to mean something else. To be honest, I still feel that your argument is self-closed in a way that defeats solution.
I said somewhere around here that I am not happy about huge numbers of immigrants. But I am against treating the cruelly. It seems to be a first response of people to treat with crelty the first victims of a problem they did not cause.
My idea of a solution would be to build a “city” preferably on the Spanish speaking side of the border where refugees could establish their own economy and laws. With help from American ordinary capitalist investment, and probably oversight of the administration of laws to prevent the kind of corruption and abuse the refugees are fleeing from. It might help if we also looked at what our own policies are doing that encourage the corruption and abuse in the countries the refugees are coming from. Meanwhile we are having our own problems with corruption and abuse (if not outright treason) from the good American citizens who are complaing the loudest about open borders.
If it can be made to work, I would provisionally admit refugees and give them work permits that do not allow them to work for less than prevailing wages, and require them to pay for their own Social Security, and do threaten them with deportation for serious crimes. But, again, we still have a problem with state and local governments defining serious crimes so as to criminalize immigrants and other poor people in order to subjugate them. I don’t think this means the same as allowing them into our homes, or imagining that we have “room” for them. I have lived with the ugly effects of population growth most of my life. I don’t want any more of it. helping our “economy” is the last thing I want to see. but i’m not ready to throw everyone else out of the lifeboat yet.
hystera about the “other” has been a fact of human life since the beginning of human life. most often it turned out to be justified. ask the Indians.
It definitely would help if we looked at what we are doing that encourages or facilitates the corruption and violence in the countries the migrants are fleeing. Our history of “protecting” the investments of American corporations and financial institutions is not pretty.
jackd
i should let it rest, but if you come home and there is a stranger in your house do you react the same as you would if you saw a “foreigner” on the street?
as for the law all over the world, I don’t agree with it. But I betcha even they don’t treat illegal immigrants the same as they treat home invaders.
except in Texas.