Vaccination works
Other than among Jehovah’s Witnesses, vaccination rightly gained widespread trust and acceptance in America. Inoculation against smallpox was around for hundreds of years before Jenner described the eponymous vaccine. Polio was a scourge in the US through the 1950s until it was virtually eliminated by vaccination. Many deadly diseases like whooping cough and measles were all but eliminated in my lifetime through vaccination.
Now, thanks to rank politicization, COVID vaccination rates are way down and measles vaccination rates are falling. While I respect personal freedom, your freedom ends where my nose (and life) begins. Viruses don’t respect politics, and measles is one of the most contagious viral pathogens:
“Measles is one of the most contagious viruses known. It spreads via respiratory and airborne transmission. The virus can linger in air space for up to two hours after an infected person has been in an area. People who are not vaccinated or have compromised immune systems are susceptible, and up to 90 percent of susceptible people exposed to the virus will become infected. Measles symptoms typically begin around eight to 14 days after exposure, but the disease can incubate for up to 21 days. The symptoms begin as a high fever, runny nose, red and watery eyes, and a cough before the telltale rash develops. Infected people can be contagious from four days before the rash develops through four days after the rash appears, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. About 1 in 5 unvaccinated people with measles are hospitalized, the CDC adds, while 1 in 20 infected children develop pneumonia and up to 3 in 1,000 children die of the infection.”
Americans have the right to be protected from deadly and preventable diseases. If you and your kids aren’t vaccinated, you need to submit to voluntary quarantine. Other vulnerable people (children, the elderly, the immunosuppressed) don’t surrender their personal safety just because you do. In the third decade of the 21st century, in the wealthiest nation in the world, the fact that there are people who (a) refuse vaccination and (b) insist on their right to expose others is selfish, unpatriotic and appalling.
11% of Florida kids are unvaccinated
The COVID mRNA is not a vaccine – it is a joke.
It does not stop the virus and soes not stope the transmission of the virus.
It is a risk health and virtually untested in humans.
This is one of worst piece of science hoisted on the world since the RC church said the world was flat.
Flat earth was okay until Copernicus et al developed refutation.
Worse they put Galileo under house arrest and threatened excomm….
@paddy,
You are confused. Aristotle already had shown the earth was round, not flat, centuries before Copernicus and Galileo. Copernicus refuted the geocentric solar system and showed that the earth moves around the sun (heliocentric solar system). Galileo was attacked by the Vatican for claiming the earth moved around the sun.
Aristotle did not convince the rennaisance mind. Copernicus and Newton developed the mathematics that proved the flat earthers wrong. The basis of mathematics as proof for phenomenon is why I referred to Copernicus.
Galileo was a practitioner of new science sustained by observation.
They were fighting for logic and proof over faith based knowledge.
@paddy,
I’m well aware of what Copernicus, Newton and Galileo did. That changes nothing I posted. The RCC did not have an issue with a round earth, which was well-accepted by the time of Galileo. The issue the church had with Copernicus and Galileo is that they placed the sun, not the earth, at the center of the solar system.
Isabella’s court not only knew that the earth was round, they also knew its circumference, because it had been calculated from solar declination measurements by Erastothenes in the third century. Columbus was the idiot, who would have starved but for the existence of an unknown continent on the way to China.
rick:
I can not upvote you for this comment. However, well done . . .
paddy
fellow named eratosthenes knew the world was round..
Er·a·tos·the·nes| ˌerəˈtäsTHənēz | (c. 275–194 bc), Greek scholar, geographer, and astronomer. The first systematic geographer of antiquity, he accurately calculated the circumference of the earth.
far from rejecting aristotle, the Church embraced his ideas. ipse dixit.
the church..at least Galileos friend the pope did not reject Galileo’s science for religious reasons, but for political reasons.
@rittenhouse,
The COVID mRNA is a highly effective vaccine.
Nobody ever claimed it would “stop the virus.” The claim is that if you are vaccinated and get infected, it will keep you out of the ED and the morgue. This has been amply demonstrated. It slows viral transmission by making infected people less contagious.
There is essentially no risk to the health of vaccinated people. The Moderna mRNA vaccine was tested on 15,000 people (I was one of them) and the Pfizer mRNA was tested on 20,000 people in Phase III trials. They had been tested on thousands more in Phase I/II trials. Since then, tens of millions of vaccinations with these vaccines have been performed in humans.
The science behind mRNA vaccines has been amply vindicated by experience. Claims that they are risky, not a vaccine or that they are virtually untested in humans are some of the most egregious falsehoods foisted on the world since the RC church said the sun revolved around the earth.
Shame on you!
I only allowed you to post your lies here in order to rebut them. Future lying posts will be considered trolling and will be deleted.
Claims!
Are you referring to hypotheses about effectiveness and safety of mRNA Vaccines? If so what was the alpha and beta of the tests?
What is the alpha and beta behind “amply vindicated”?
Testing policy of CDC seems less transparent than FAA test of Boeing 737 Max 9.
Not sure the “science behind mRNA vaccines” is all that thorough.
@paddy,
The evidence for the safety and efficacy of the mRNA vaccines is published and available on the internet. If you believe the science behind mRNA vaccines isn’t thorough, its because (a) you haven’t bothered to read it and/or (b) you don’t understand it.
On the remote possibility that you are sincere and wish to have your questions answered, I’ve attached a link.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10588549/#:~:text=The%20Moderna%20vaccine%20(mRNA%2D1273,terms%20of%20efficacy%20and%20safety.&text=No%20safety%20concerns%20have%20been,the%20BNT162b2%20or%20Moderna%20vaccines.
What is “evidence” for an “accept or reject” of a statement/hypothesis about efficacy or safety? How does “evidence” support the acceptance/reject? I am wanting to understand the design of test, and risk bases of the design.
You give me a written piece with 74 citations, in place of how the experiments were designed.
People have been crunching population data on vaccine effects for several years. See this:
Cureus | COVID-19 mRNA Vaccines: Lessons Learned from the Registrational Trials and Global Vaccination Campaign | Article
See fig 1 which shows the placebo groups (33 weeks starting July 2020) had fewer deaths than the vaccine recipients. From this I would question safety and/or efficacy.
Granted the article is not popular.
What Keynes said about changing one’s mind with new data.
@paddy,
That paper is being retracted for multiple errors and misrepresentations.
https://www.factcheck.org/2024/02/scicheck-review-article-by-misinformation-spreaders-misleads-about-mrna-covid-19-vaccines/
@paddy,
“You give me a written piece with 74 citations, in place of how the experiments were designed.”
Yep. That’s how it works in science reviews, and even some primary references. If you want to find out how the experiments were designed, you have to read the papers cited. Sometimes, you’ll have to read some of the references *they* cite.
I helped you get started. It’s up to you to do the reading if you’re serious about understanding mRNA vaccine testing.
kenneth:
It is unfortunate there are those like yourself who flaunt the science. Call it what you will. It works and without it we would have had vastly more fatalities. Do us all a favor and ban yourself from Angry Bear.
Joel:
who (a) refuse vaccination and (b) insist on their right to expose others is selfish, unpatriotic and appalling, and stupid.
Up and moving slowly
Programming note:
Personal attacks are not permitted on Angry Bear. Any comments that include personal attacks will be deleted.
Joel
thank you for reminding me of eponymous . word had been very fashionable a while back. pundits competing with each other to make up excuses to use it. i had been trying to remember it. so, was the vaccine named after Jenner.
Are you really planning on deleting Bill’s comment? Just like the Church censored Galileo?
Just when I thought it was safe to go back in the water. This comment thread has been the most entertaining thing I’ve seen in weeks. To be honest with you I don’t think anyone actually “believed” the world world was flat, given the struggle for survival, but we’ll never know, aeh?
I was freshly retired (from teaching) at the start of the Trump-Flu and I commented somewhere, maybe here, that this is the 21st century and that wasn’t what I envisioned for my retirement: teaching people to cover their mouths when they cough, wash their hands. The mRNA architecture is the biggest medical breakthrough since hot-water and in-fact addresses a whole gamit of maladies other than the Trump-Flu. The monkeys who would gainsay that need be removed from polite society ~ I don’t care how
The almost seventy that’s healthy as a horse probably got twenty more years in me that goes for five mile hikes and does ungodly numbers of walking-jacks, pushups and pullups two or three times a week me want’s to just let them suffer but my spouse is just wrapping up three years recovering from her last round of surgeries and I just can’t afford these animals’ flippant attitudes
I want to lay hands on anti-vaxxers …
@Ten,
“. . . this is the 21st century and that wasn’t what I envisioned for my retirement: teaching people to cover their mouths when they cough, wash their hands. The mRNA architecture is the biggest medical breakthrough since hot-water and in-fact addresses a whole gamit of maladies other than the Trump-Flu.“
D’accord.
Ten
you need to get out more. I worked…travelled in a “crummy” to the job site …with people who did not know “cover your mouth”. But refrain from getting your hands on…. some of them are pretty big, and some are armed…. and some are nice people. you never know.
George Bernard Shaw was by all accounts a pretty smart guy, and a socialist to boot. He did not believe in the germ theory,
I spent fifteen years in the crummy: two moonlit rides and picnic lunch. Hooked logs to helicopters with the best of ’em
Fart, ride in the back with the dogs …
Joel,
Has the figure in the paper I linked been proven wrong?
@paddy,
The burden of proof is on those who make the claim to support the claim, not on others to prove them wrong. The fact that the entire paper is being retracted should tell you that this paper cannot be trusted. Here’s what the journal said:
The concerns include, but are not limited to:
We find that the article is misrepresenting all-cause mortality data
We find that the article appears to be misrepresenting VAERs data
The article states that the Pfizer COVID-19 vaccine saved two lives and caused 27 deaths per 100,000 vaccinations, and the Moderna vaccine saved 3.9 lives and caused 10.8 deaths per 100,000 vaccinations, though there does not appear to be convincing evidence for this claim.
Incorrect claim: Vaccines are gene therapy products.
The article states that vaccines are contaminated with high levels of DNA. Upon review we found that the cited references are not sufficient to support these claims.
The article states that SV40 promoter can cause cancer because SV40 virus can cause cancer in some organisms and inconclusively in humans. However, we find that this is misrepresenting the cited study (Li, S., MacLaughlin, F., Fewell, J. et al. Muscle-specific enhancement of gene expression by incorporation of SV40 enhancer in the expression plasmid. Gene Ther 8, 494–497 (2001). https://doi.org/10.1038/sj.gt.3301419
The article states that mRNA COVID-19 vaccines did not undergo adequate safety and efficacy testing, which the journal considers to be incorrect
The article incorrectly states that spike proteins produced by COVID-19 vaccination linger in the body and cause adverse effects.
Given the concerns with your article, we find that the stated findings in this narrative review are to be considered unreliable, and are not sufficiently supported either by the cited research in the article itself or by other research.
Joel:
Thank you for being patient and kind.
factcheck.0rg? Come on!
One of their references is CDC recommending we should vaccinate anyone 6 months or older!
The figure shows more deaths among vaccinated in the BNT test 3 months after Jul 2020. All “cause” what is the argument the table is from the test?
If the article is pulled for factcheck.org complaining, then “narrative” wins!
I present TES: The Ethical Skeptic – Challenging Pseudo-Skepticism, its Agency and Cultivated Ignorance
Composition of excess deaths since the pandemic is troubling.
This is systems analysis of the “state of the pandemic” through about 2 weeks ago, with rigorous statistical analysis.
His skepticism is over the prevalence of ‘narrative’ over logic and clear evaluation of systems effects.
btw attacks on “misuse” and miscoding of VAERS have been lodged by TES and other critics of the narrative.
@paddy,
“factcheck.0rg? Come on!” is not a scientific rebuttal. Basing your arguments on a paper about to be retracted isn’t sound science, either.
I gave you a link that addresses your questions about mRNA testing and safety. Did you actually read it?
@paddy,
No. I’ve done a lot of reading the past four years. I was a subject in the Moderna phase III trial and got my first jab in August of 2020. I was in the vaccine (not placebo) arm of the trial.
I’ve read reliable, reproducible, non-retracted papers. I don’t read anti-vaxxer web sites. If you read the paper I linked you to, I’m sure you’ll find out about the design of the trials, either in the reference itself or in one or more papers in the reference section.
At least in regards to the mRNA COVID vaccines, the uptake of boosters has plummeted since that first booster cycle. While there might be an observable political affiliation skew, the drop is too steep to think large numbers of Democrats are not part of this trend. If you take a pretty reasonable view that people after 12 or 18 months since boosting are essentially unvaxxed, the unvaxxed might be a majority. Using language like “stupid” and “unpatriotic” is not likely to be key elements in reestablishing the value of these vaccines. It can be very frustrating to have to resell something you thought you had already sold, but it happens. I could be wrong, but I think it’s possible a significant part of the decline in acceptance is that the “you are very special” vibe substantially fell apart. Hardly anyone “liked” your booster Instagram; after a couple of months the restaurants didn’t care about your Vax Passport app; OSHA did not get your Neanderthal coworkers fired; and you got COVID anyway (twice!!). For many the vaccines had too heavy a lift: prevent more serious illness and advance your social position at the very clear expense of people you may really dislike. Well the second part mostly failed and that was unforgivable…. no more vax for me!
@Eric,
People still use tobacco, ignoring the evidence that they would be healthier if they didn’t. Advice to lose weight and to stop abusing alcohol are also unwelcome and widely ignored. That doesn’t mean that the advice isn’t sound.
Nobody claimed being vaccinated would prevent you from getting COVID anyway. The claim was that being vaccinated would keep you out of the ED and the morgue.
Joel (thank you)
“The claim was that being vaccinated would keep you out of the ED and the morgue.”
And yet they were still out there. We did not go much of anywhere. I would be up at 6 AM to hit the grocery store when it first opened. Race through there with my list. And bail out.
Was deathly sick with pneumonia. Struggling to breath is not what I want to do again.
We stayed away.
Your point is well made. The vaccine was no guarantee.
Two problems with vaccines:
Informed consent was not allowed (it seems to be allowed and so <20% uptake),
In my family/friends anecdotal small pool; since the vaccines came out two men died rapidly after initial diagnosis of a cancer, and two men brothers died suddenly of heart issues, one having a few days before been cleared for knee replacement surgery.
For a time we saw a lot of stigmatizing those who disagree. Is it subsiding?
@paddy,
Please post a link reporting that COVID vaccines were given without informed consent.
“since the vaccines came out two men died rapidly after initial diagnosis of a cancer, and two men brothers died suddenly of heart issues, one having a few days before been cleared for knee replacement surgery.”
I notice you wrote “since the vaccines came out,” not “since they were vaccinated.” That said, I am certain that every single person who has been vaccinated, including me, will die after their vaccination. Post hoc ergo propter hoc is a logical fallacy, not a scientific argument.
paddy:
And your claim is the supposedly poisonous vaccine did it to all 4 men? In my family pool, we were all vaccinated and found the vaccination made us 5 years younger. Now, that is a fact . . . not! There is no correlation. It is make believe.
You are not informed. You are dealing in make believe.
BS, nobody is stigmatizing.
Eric
yeah, but you were always a little on the MAGA side. there is nothing unusual about this.
you hear all the warnings about speeding or drinking while speeding, but hey, that’s fun, and you are a real good driver. so you push the limit a little, and either you are a pretty skillful (not the same as good) driver or just lucky, but you are paying attention and you get away with it again and again, until one day when you have gotten a little blasé and not really paying attention something happens and an accident that wouldn’t have happened at 60 happens at 80 and you stop being part of the conversation.
what does this have to do with vaccination? well, like a doctor’s prescription, it’s a combination of ingredients.