“4 out of 5 mass Shooters Were Not Diagnosed with Mental Iillness,
half showed no signs of a prior, undiagnosed illness.” Sen. Chris Murphy (D-CT), and plainly speaking, they were not mentally ill.
Yesterday on Monday morning;
President Trump: “Mental illness and hatred pulls the trigger, not the gun. We must reform our mental health laws to better identify mentally disturbed individuals who may commit acts of violence and make sure those people not only get treatment and if necessary, involuntary confinement.” This is coming from a narcistic man who behaves irradicably and irrationally.
In response to President Trump’s remarks, Senator Chris Murphy (D-CT).
“Nineteen of 20 murderers had no diagnosis of a mental illness. Four out of 5 mass shooters had no mental illness diagnosis, and half showed no signs of a prior, undiagnosed illness. Framing mass shootings as just a mental illness problem is a gun industry trope. Period. Stop.”
In any case, the courts make little allowance for mental illness or for those who plead insanity. Those who are mentally ill and convicted of felony are locked away at level 4 prisons with the general population and the treatment is minimal. Trump’s “lock them up” comment of involuntary confinement just takes it one step further than the courts and without their interference.
Back to Senator Murphy and social media comments: some commenters agreed with Senator Murphy’s point about the validity of linking such events to mental illness as these comments only serve to stigmatize anyone with a mental illness. Other commenters questioned whether it is possible for a person to kill multiple strangers, at random, and not be mentally ill. One Twitter commenter; “So a healthy person does this?”
Yes, it can be a healthy normal person more often than not.
A much-cited 2016 review by forensic psychiatrists James L. Knoll IV MD and George D. Annas MD, SUNY Upstate Medical University in Syracuse New York may have been what Senator Murphy was referencing to in his comments.
Both doctors Knoll and Annas acknowledged the public and the media find the question of “mental illness” hard to resist.
“After all, who but a madman would execute innocent people in broad daylight, while planning to commit suicide or waiting to be killed by police?”
Adding to Knoll and Annas’s findings as well as other research; only a “minority” of mass shootings (however defined) have been perpetrated by individuals having recognized mental disorders.
“Few perpetrators of mass shootings have had verified histories of being in psychiatric treatment for serious mental illness.”
Again Knoll and Annas: Such individuals can function (perhaps marginally) in society and do not typically seek out mental health treatment. In most cases, it cannot fairly be said that a perpetrator ‘fell through the cracks’ of the mental health system. Rather, these individuals typically plan their actions well outside the awareness of mental health professionals.”
Mass shooters may not meet the criteria of a disorder as stated in DSM-5 – “Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders.” They may have an ill-defined trouble of the mind, harboring anger or revenge and for which the field of mental health field has no immediate, quick-acting ‘treatment. “Psychiatrists and in particular forensic psychiatrists understand that dark and depraved acts are frequently committed for other reasons besides mental illness and more often committed for those other reasons.”
Can the matter of a hidden anger or other undefined trouble be resolved by labeling it ‘mental illness’ and calling for greater scrutiny of ‘troubled’ individuals? Knoll believes we would solve nothing by doing so and even risk making matters worse. This mindset makes us vulnerable to creating new and misguided laws. Such attempts further the medieval notion of equating mental illness with ‘evil’ or criminal behavior.
Mental health treatment has its limits is not designed to detect and uncover potential violent extremists. Formal psychiatric screening is not likely to identify those who may commit massacres.
Noting the wave of mass shootings beginning in the late 1990s; there was another propellant besides guns and mental illness both of which existed for a long time, and to which Knoll added the media as another. “It seems difficult to deny that the media coverage since the late 90s” has made it certain that those who commit heinous crimes become celebrities through the development of an online “Columbiner culture” glorifying the Columbine High School shooters and the others following in their footsteps.
We must eliminate the media attention gained from mass shooting.
“Conundrum: Why Isn’t Killing 22 People ‘Mental Illness’?” — Psychiatrists say the question is beside the point, MedPage Today, John Gever, Managing Editor, August 5, 2019
“Mass Shootings and Mental Illness,” Gun Violence and Mental Illness. James L. Knoll M.D. and George D. Annas M.D.
“The Health 202: Trump blamed mental illness for mass shootings. The reality is more complicated” The Washington Post, Paige Winfield Cunningham
Run75441 (Bill H)
I admit to having passed one college course in “psychology”. I remember a conversation during a lecture about the thin line between crime and psychotic behavior……..
That said, in my misspent youth I almost was assigned to ICBM launch officer duties. I lucked out and failed the eye exam, color deficient, same reason I could not get to flight training.
To do launch duties one must respond to orders, to shoot a multiple warhead missile that will kill millions by itself and participate in destroying civilization.
To get into the school you have to be “certified sane”. As a result of my color vision I am not able to declare I was certified sane!
I have a catch 22 story for another time….
David Brin suggests that the perpetrators should lose their name. They should become mass shooter #12345 and never be referred to as anything else.
I believe mass shooters are suicides.
I believe mass shooters are deaths of despair.
I believe they are suicides by police with one added feature, a violent lashing out at the only targets that can actually be found.
Consider how difficult it is to find one of the Koch Bros. or the CEO of a large corporation that employs large numbers of ‘illegals‘.
Mass shooters think someone deserves to be shot, but they go crazy long before they can figure out who.
Watt4:
Good to see you again.
There are two paragraphs, I hung on which may go to the heart of what you are stating. It does not necessarily agree with what you said though.
It is interesting most who commit mass shootings are white males and many have not reached maturity where the cortex of the brain is fully developed which occurs “around” 25. It is not a mental disorder and it is a matter of rationalizing. I am assuming the military knew this age group were the right ones to draft due to their limited ability to rationalize.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/05/health/mass-shootings-mental-health.html?login=email&auth=login-email You can log in and read a limited number of NYT articles if you like for free. I do.
Thank you for your comment.
” The other 80 percent have many of the problems that nearly everyone has to manage at some point in life: anger, isolation, depressive moods, resentments, jealousy.”
This is the vein along which I am thinking.
Young people especially have many fewer prospects these days, whereas when you and I were young it was possible to walk off a job we didn’t like in the morning, and have another that afternoon for instance.
When I was a kid the streets were filled with other kids and we socialized in a rough and tumble way and kept each other in line that at the time was often painful, but in retrospect was a valuable sort of education, and I think built character and fostered humility.
These days young people confuse online interaction with true socialization, and many don’t end up with much skill at dealing with strangers or ‘difficult’ people.
Then there is idpol, which encourages us to keep our ‘identity’ front and center at all times which can result in a hypersensitivity that gets in the way of accepting that others understand us.
It used to be that kids stopped yelling “You don’t understand!” before reaching 20 years old, now almost any disagreement can be brought to a dead halt by that sort of exclamation.
I think what I’m describing is a sort of delayed maturation mixed with poor prospects in our current economic situation.
Add to that a political environment rife with anger, scapegoating, and a president who enjoys instigating trouble…
That’s what I’m thinking about.
Watt4
Your return makes sense to me and I appreciate your taking time to answer.
When I was younger, it was true you could have another job in non-recession periods in the 10 year cycles. We did socialize with other children often without being invited by the parents. It was natural to do so. The economy has not been good for Millennials and others, Too much debt is being forced upon them with no relief when the Trumps of the world can shake it off under any circumstance. Been working on that issue also and besides healthcare. How deep do I get into some topics? I am glad you asked. Here is one example I was asked to write: http://angrybearblog.com/2019/04/a-womans-right-to-good-healthcare-outcomes.html The link will take you to all 2000+ words of it.
Good to see you again
To argue that DSM-5 screening will not prevent most mass killings is not really the same as saying those killings do not result from mental illness. The mental illness involved, made manifest by the violent behavior, is simply not diagnosable with our present levels of expertise. The law’s definitions, knowing right from wrong, unable to control one’s impulses, etc.are not helpful. Maybe the question of “mental illness” is simply irrelevant to the issue of prevention but then “mental illness” is a construct subject to the imperfectability of most human constructs.
And what is the likelihood of a successful insanity plea? Almost zero as a determination even with a proven physical cause which can be the determinant. This is just a charade on the part of weapons owners, the NRA, and Trump playing to their desires. It is still access to firepower which should not be available at any cost.
Agreed as to how to address the problem. However, I think those asserting that the behaviors in question are the result of mental illness or disability are right. That doesn’t mean they can win in court. As you know, courts are not God.
Jack:
You can “believe” they are right the same as a psychologist can be said to have the same knowledge as a psychiatrist; but in realty the latter is a doctor and the former are therapists who lack the training of a doctor. DSM 5 is written by American Psychiatric Association. They do not accept such findings and they shouldn’t. There are other reasons which come into place such as the maturity of the shooter and their ability to rationalize their actions. It is not mental illness; but, it is a defect.
I can accept the term, “mental defect”. Things, like minds, that are defective don’t work right.
Jack:
I am asking someone else for a better definition or term.
with all respect i think you are missing the point.
that official psychiatry does not identify mass shooting as a mental illness tells us more about the failure of psychiatry than it does about mental illness or mass shooters.
we may think that the people who carry out Trump’s orders to imprison children or disappear their parents are not mentally ill. perhaps that is “correct” they merely demonstrate that humans in general are all too prone to the mass insanity that is “obedience to authority” or participation in the mob violence usually fomented by political “leaders.”
whatever the “truth” or “science” of that, it is a mistake to respond to the late violence as if the issue were “mental illness” or “gun ownership.”
those are distractions. we can deal with both mental illness and gun ownership by normal community action or even “politics.”
but what we are seeing today is the takeover of America by a gang of criminals or psychopaths who care about nothing but money and power. they seem to be motivated by hate for all things that threaten their easy profits (unlike real capitalists they are not interested in innovation or work to create legitimate profits) … if they are not motivate by hate itself, hate for all things that other people love… and they enlist the easy human hatred of the “other” to give them the political power and “cover” to carry forward their agenda of hatred.
please, save your opinions about “mental illness” or “gun control” for normal times. we are facing an Enemy which needs all of our attention to defeat if it is not already too late. beware of distractions.
@Dale;
I wish I could disagree.
But your perspective can even encompass my take, in that these shooters may be exhibiting what I would call hysterical hatred, one that drives them to believe it is time to ‘act’, even if it means they forfeit their lives.
Watt4
i could accept your take, but it’s the sort of thing that will take years if not forever to sort out. I would add that in my own model of human cognition there are probably many “causes,” that is, almost accidental neural connections that determine behavior as well as opinions.
in that model Trump simply adds to the load of neural connections that increase the propensity for people already inclined to act out their personal hatreds under cover of “approval” by similarly inclined persons, especially persons of authority.
Trump is not the only inciter of these possibly “normal” human behaviors and misbehaviors. But he is the one we have now. Unfortunately he is maybe only the figurehead for what amounts to a criminal gang that has just about taken control of this country (and a few other countries).
I don’t think this is a paranoid conspiracy theory. I only ask you to look at what is happening and form your own ideas about whether it needs to be stopped and what you are willing and able to do to stop it.
I don’t think we have the time to wait for the next election or even for the impeachment process. We could begin with possible mass action at the border or other internment facilities… including everyone who can “afford” to go and as many of our political leaders as we can persuade to “lead” us.
i am not talking insurrection here. but a few thousand people with their senators and congressmen showing up at a detention facility and demanding entrance and returning children to their families would show we are serious if not actually human.