Hate Crimes, Plus a Question for US Senate Candidate Kamala Harris
Authored by Mike Kimel
Let’s start with the lede: from what I can tell, according to Kamala Harris (California State Attorney General and candidate for the US Congress), the ISIS-inspired massacre of 14 people in San Bernardino was not a hate crime.
And now, the story, with some meandering around interesting facts. The Los Angeles County Commission on Human Relations 2015 Hate Crime REPORT was just released.
One interesting passage in the report is this:
The great majority of African Americans and Latino/as in Los Angeles County co-exist peacefully and are not involved in ongoing racial conflict. However, for many years this report has documented that most hate crimes targeting African Americans are committed by Latino/as and vice versa. This is particularly true in neighborhoods that have undergone rapid demographic shifts from being primarily black to majority Latino/a. The other factor driving this phenomenon is the large number of Latino/a street gangs which have ties to the Mexican Mafia, the largest and most violent prison-based gang. The Mexican Mafia has been feuding with black inmates for decades and has encouraged their affiliated street gangs to drive African Americans out of their neighborhoods.
Strictly from a data point of view, I wonder how many of the crimes described in the above paragraph are just turf wars. Are these really any different from when two X gangs go at it, with X being any particular racial or ethnic group?
Another interesting factette:
Anti-Jewish crimes were followed by those targeting Muslims (19%), Christians (5%), Jehovah’s Witnesses (3%) and Catholics (2%). This represented a large increase in the number of anti-Muslim crimes, from to 3 to 19. As a percentage of all religious crimes, anti-Muslim crimes jumped from 4% to 19%. Four of these took place after the November 13 terrorist attacks in Paris that claimed the lives of 130 people and seriously wounded nearly 100 more. There were also 9 anti-Muslim/Middle Eastern crimes that occurred following the December 2 terrorist attack in San Bernardino in which a Muslim couple attacked a San Bernardino County Department of Public Health holiday party killing 14 employees and seriously wounding 22.
Fortunately, the majority of those crimes took the form of vandalism, intimidation and disorderly conduct. There were also 8 simple assaults and 4 aggravated assaults which are more serious, and luckily, no murders.
With that said, two thoughts. First, there is little information on the perps of anti-religious hate crimes, but one blurb says:
A Middle Eastern male entered a synagogue and shouted, “I’m going to kill all Jews”. The suspect attempted to use a stun gun to harm one of the members.
In keeping with explanation of anti-Black and anti-Latino crimes quoted above, it would have been interesting to know whether anti-Jewish or other anti-religious crimes are often perpetrated by individuals who can be described as “Middle Eastern.”
My second thought also inolved the “Middle Eastern” angle. I thought it would be interesting to see how the San Bernardino massacre was treated in official reports on hate crimes. Of course, San Bernardino is not in Los Angeles County, so I went to the Hate Crime in California put out by California State Attorney General Kamala Harris.
So there’s no mistake in what information is reported, I quote:
Hate Crime in California, 2015 reports statistics on hate crimes that occurred in California during 2015. These statistics include the number of hate crime events, hate crime offenses, victims of hate crimes, and suspects of hate crimes. This report also provides statistics from district and elected city attorneys on the number of hate crime cases referred to prosecutors, the number of cases filed in court, and the disposition of those cases.
Also, in the appendix, we learn:
California Penal Code section 422.55 defines a hate crime as “a criminal act committed, in whole or in part, because of one or more of the following actual or perceived characteristics of the victim: (1) disability, (2) gender, (3) nationality, (4) race or ethnicity, (5) religion, (6) sexual orientation, (7) association with a person or group with one or more of these actual or perceived characteristics.”
Now, table 6 on page 17 lists hate crime “events,” “offenses,” victims and suspects by jurisdictions, including those that occurred in the city of San Bernardino. Those numbers are, respectively, 4, 5, 4, and 4. Additionally, we learn from Table 2 that a total of three of the Hate Crimes in the state of California in 2015 were hate crimes. So it is safe to assume that the San Bernardino massacre does not qualify for inclusion in the report. Since it also was too significant to ignore or simply misplace, one can only conclude that it wasn’t a hate crime according to the authors of the report.
Kamala Harris, whose name appears on the front cover of this report, is running for the US Senate. I wish someone would ask her why 14 people being killed by radicalized, ISIS inspired individuals engaging in what they would call jihad doesn’t qualify as a hate crime.
Let me take a stab at this. (Pun intended.) If someone asks Harris why 14 people being killed by radicalized, ISIS inspired individuals engaging in what they would call jihad doesn’t qualify as a hate crime, she probably will respond that—as the statute makes really clear—a hate crime is one whose MOTIVE is based on the actual or perceived characteristics of … the VICTIM.
You seem to be conflating perpetrator and victim, and think that if the act is committed in whole or in part because of the victims’ OR the perpetrator’s disability, (2) gender, (3) nationality, (4) race or ethnicity, (5) religion, (6) sexual orientation, (7) association with a person or group with one or more of these actual or perceived characteristics, it’s a hate crime. Sorry, but that’s not the law.
What a strange claim. Or question. Or whatever it is.
Curiously, in Chicago, recent research reported in the local papers and magazines, indicates that the violent crimes in the city tend to be limited to minority groups and not necessarily Hispanic vs. Black. Often, it is block against block, the blocks being typically the same ethnic groups in population. It used to be that it was big gang vs. big gang for, typically, drug turf but now, it seems, the leaders of those gangs have been largely taken down and imprisoned and the animosities have become totally localized and independent of any economic issues. I guess you could call them hate crimes but “I hate people who live in the next block” isn’t
what the sociologists usually have in mind. It’s mostly people with too much time on their hands and no aspirations.
Hey, that’s how Dick Daley got his foothold in politics way back in the day: He was the leader of a Bridgeport gang that roughed up black kids in a nearby neighborhood and fellow Irish-Americans in Canaryville.
Guess Chicagah still ain’t ready for reform.
Jack:
When the Latin Kings take on the Disciples, what do you believe it is about? It could be money or is it the blacks infringing on a territory the Latin’s occupy? Is that money or is it about ethnic or race?
Not every aggressive act by members of one group against members of another is a hate crime, even though the two groups may hate each other. Otherwise, most wars would be considered hate crimes. It’s ridiculous.
Beverly,
Exactly. And perps went after what they considered to be infidels as their victims.
The classic example of hate crime is that committed by a White Supremacist. But the term White Wupremacist is specifically not “someone who hates Blacks” or “someone who hates Latinos” or “someone who hates Asians” or whatever group. The point is, such a person dislikes those who aren’t what they consider White. I knew of those guys once – apparently, in his world, Italians didn’t qualify as Whites either.
Now, if someone like that shoots an Italian guy, it’s a hate crime even if you would raise your eyebrows that the guy didn’t considered Italians to be White. After all, as per the definition, the perp shot the victim because of “perceived characteristics of the victim,” namely that he didn’t perceive the victim to be White.
Now, I’m sure the perps would have been happy to target Shia Muslims too, as well as any number of Sunni Muslims who don’t subscribe to the ISIS philosophy. So they were motivated specficially by perceived characteristics of the victims’ religion. Maybe not how you or I would have perceived the victims, but how the perps perceived them.
well, the form “latinos / as” strikes me as a hate crime against the english language. maybe also the spanish. but i don’t know enough to judge the last.
english got along fine for at least the last five hundred years without needing “him/her” and i hope will get over the need to make the radical feminists feel better.
the “male” pronoun is not offensive. females have their own pronoun when it is important to distinguish, otherwise they are free to share the generic pronoun, which as far as i know men are required to share with them on the basis of strict equality.
Coberly,
Without agreeing or disagreeing with your point, there are more pronouns than that in use today. It will be up to the millenials and their successors whether some of those pronouns survive.
Um, no, Mike.
“A criminal act committed, in whole or in part, because of one or more of the following actual or perceived characteristics of the victim: (1) disability, (2) gender, (3) nationality, (4) race or ethnicity, (5) religion, (6) sexual orientation, (7) association with a person or group with one or more of these actual or perceived characteristics,” is NOT the same thing as “A criminal act committed, in whole or in part, because of THE ABSENCE OF one or more of the following actual or perceived characteristics of the victim:”.
Someone who commits a crime against random Italians because he hates Italians has committed a hate crime under that statute. Same for someone who kills Asians or Hispanics or blacks because he hates Asians or Hispanics or blacks—or Jews, or Catholics, or gays—has committed a hate crime. A couple who kill 14 coworkers of one of them for political reasons or revenge or retaliation—as those two did and as the Boston Marathon bombers did (neither of these duos killed “infidels” because they were “infidels,” btw) has committed an act of terror under federal law, but not a hate crime.
One characteristic that strikes me about Trumpists and Limbaugh-ists and the like is their obsession with semantics. Clinton won’t say “radical Islam”, or Obama won’t say some magic word or phrase. This fetishizing of this or that phrase or term, and their insistence that Librals use it, is the type of thing that most people grow out of during their teenage years, or at least shortly afterward. Unless, I guess, they’re alt-right. Which you clearly are, Mike.
Run, according to the recent research it’s not the Latin Kings vs. the Disciples any more; it’s literally the people on this block against the people on the next block. Apparently there’s also a lot of turf fighting among splinters of the traditional gangs none of which have enough power to do anything but skirmish.
Jack:
What are the races of the people?
mike
my little essay re pronouns was intended as a comment about the “obsession with semantics of some word or phrase” as Beverly describes. it is unfortunate she commits the same error by… as far as i can tell, in very lawyerly fashion discriminating between hating ONE group and hating “all but one” group.
i don’t know if “terrorism” is a “hate crime” as “the law” defines it, but it looks close enough to me to understand the point you are making… though, frankly, i could not follow your arithmetic.
so yes, i am laughing at both of you as well as the people who need me to stop speaking normal english and use their made up language so i don’t hurt their tenderized feelings.
oh, and for the record, i grew up in Chicago south side, and we managed to find ways to hate each other for ANY difference: catholic v non catholic, polak v everybody else, irish v dago, hell, i don’t think we had any blacks near enough to hate… though of course… another word i can’t say because it drives some people crazy… was the generic word for somebody we could all hate together. and certainly we had real fights with people who looked just like we did but they didn’t iike the way we looked.
stupid. really stupid. but that IS the way people are without a very serious and intelligent effort to raise them not to be. and “pc” is not an intelligent way to change them. neither is calling them names, or accusing them of being a “race” (“scotch irish” beverly?) prone to cruelty and violence.
don’t count on changing it soon.
coberly:
You forgot the Cubs at Wrigley Field and the White Sox at Comiskey Park rivalry there. North sider who lived in Portage Park area and went to Lane Tech.
JackD,
Run was kind enough to post the piece, but he isn’t to blame for what it says. That would be me.
My guess is that when gang X has friction with the gang a couple of blocks to the East which happens to be of a different ethnic composition, the resultant violence is sometimes classified as a hate crime. When they have friction with the gang a couple of blocks to the West which happens to be of the same ethnic composition, it doesn’t qualify as a hate crime.
Beverly,
The characteristic you are looking for is in the mind of the two perps. The victims were what the two perps called infidels. If you don’t think they went after infidels, please elaborate, because that is what it looks like to everyone else.
Also, I wasn’t aware that terror, unlike, say, murder or vandalism precludes an act from also being classified as a hate crime. As stated many times before, I am not an attorney, but I believe that is wrong. Hate crimes, after all, are enhancements to other crimes.
Finally, you keep calling me alt-right. As I noted before, I am working my way toward articulating my position. I am sure you will refer to it as alt-right, though those on the alt-right won’t like my position either. The alt-right, as I understand it, is vaguely defined, but (and this is true of ideologies from communism to fascism) I don’t agree with the basic principles of the movement as I understand them.
“I wonder how many of the crimes described in the above paragraph are just turf wars.”
FWIW
40 Of Weekend’s Shooting Victims Had Been Arrested 672 Times, Top Cop Says By Alex Nitkin | August 15, 2016 1:26pm
https://www.dnainfo.com/chicago/20160815/bronzeville/40-of-weekends-shooting-victims-had-been-arrested-672-times-top-cop-says
Run, apparently these days more often than not the warring factions are of the same race or ethnic group. Not to say that racial and ethnic strife doesn’t continue but apparently it is no longer the dominant theme.
Mike, I wasn’t quarreling with your definition but rather trying to point out that Chicago’s violence, which is the subject of national reporting, does not appear to have hate crimes as a major factor.
Jack:
I can only tell you from own hearsay from another source. It still exists and they align due to color of skin, race or ethnicity. You align even if you do not wan to do so. Aryans do not pick on blacks or Hispanic just to fight. There is a definite hatred of difference.
Chicago’s issue per capita are far less than hat can be found in some Michigan cities and the state for that matter. It is stage for rednecks and Trumpeteers to expound upon.
Dale, here’s the problem with the first three paragraphs of your comment. You’re changing the subject—which actually is something pretty specific: what constitutes a hate crime under California’s hate-crime statute.
Mike made a specific, angry allegation against Kamala Harris (who’s a Senate candidate!). He said she failed to include within her office’s statistics on hate crimes within a certain time period the shooting spree by a radical-Islam couple who targeted the work colleagues of one member of the couple. He quoted the statute and said that the San Bernadino shooting spree sure seems to him to qualify as a hate crime under that statute, since, after all, the shooters were radical-Islamists and were trying to make a political statement and targeted people who were not Muslims. But he was clearly wrong, and that’s not a matter of opinion; it’s a matter of law.
I was not the one who brought up the language in the statute; he did, and with deep umbrage bordering on rage claimed that Harris was opting to exclude a crime that qualifies under the statute as a hate crime. She did not. She interpreted the statute as meaning what the legislature meant by its words, and what courts interpret hate-crime statutes to mean, based upon the legislative purpose of these statutes.
These statutes are intended to create a separate category of crime that in essence borrows from the Supreme Court’s longstanding Equal Protection Clause jurisprudence, which divides into three types court analyses (levels of court “scrutiny”) of laws or government policies or actions for purposes of determining what constitutes an unconstitutional denial of equal protection by the government. The most intense level of court scrutiny—a test that the Court calls “strict scrutiny”—applies only to certain categories of selection: race, ethnicity, religion. A mid-level scrutiny applies to gender, and a couple of other categories. The lowest level of court scrutiny, called “rational basis” scrutiny, applies to every other type of category, and provides virtually no actual protection because the test is whether the government can provide a “rational basis” for the disparate treatment of respective “classes” of people or of an individual. (The courts do find this, but nowhere near at the rate of, say, the occurrence of a blue moon.)
But for “strict scrutiny” to apply, there is a SECOND requirement as well: It has to be discrimination against a race, ethnicity of religion that historically has suffered discrimination of an “invidious” nature—a class of people who’ve historically suffered great of significant harm by laws or government policies.
Okay, to be precisely accurate, that was Supreme Court jurisprudence dating back to, I believe, the 1940s (maybe earlier) but in a series of Supreme Court cases beginning in about 2000, the 5-4 Republican majority has, without saying so outright, exempted race—but only race—from the requirement of “invidiousness”. In a recent Court opinion called Fisher v. University of Texas, for example, they applied the “strict scrutiny” test in favor or a white high school senior from a wealthy Houston suburb in her challenge to UT’s affirmative action policy. In other words, the Supreme Court now effectively discriminates on the basis of race in determining when the “strict scrutiny” test applies in Equal Protection cases.
But I digress. The purpose of hate-crime statutes is to heighten the criminal penalty for crimes committed against members of sociological classes that historically have been discriminated against—treated hostilely by—not merely by government but by the private sector and in person-to-person contact. In employment, housing, bank loans, public accommodations (restaurants, hotels), and other things. That also is true of antidiscrimination statutes: the Civil Rights Act, the Voting Rights Act, the Americans With Disabilities Act, and state statutes that address these issues.
You acknowledge that Mike’s claim that Harris improperly failed under California’s hate-crimes statute to call a particular instance a hate crime. Yet you criticize me for pointing out that Harris did not such thing, because the statute that Mike says she failed to act accordingly under actually provides nothing of the sort.
And, btw, neither I nor anyone else, to my knowledge, considers Scotch Irish anything but an ethnic group. Which it is, right?
Mike, I went into the specific nature of hate-crime statutes in a long response to Dale. Please read it as part of my response to you.
The victims were what the two perps called infidels, but the duo’s purpose was political, not religious. And although you aren’t aware that terror, unlike, say, murder or vandalism precludes an act from also being classified as a hate crime, actually under most circumstances it does. What matters in determining whether or not a crime of murder, assault, vandalism, whatever, is a hate crime is the specific motive and the specific intended aftermath. Same with terrorism—whose purpose usually is to stoke fear among the broad, random public. Hate crimes indeed are enhancements to other crimes. So is terrorism. But as with many other enhancements, motive is what determines whether or not the enhancement applies.
You (I guess) habitually claim that certain words that are a legal term of art—they have a very specific definition under the statute, usually narrower than the general lay meaning of the term—as though those terms are used in the statute in the same way, with the same meaning, as the word is used in general lay English. You seem to think that since you’re not a lawyer you’re entitled to treat words used in a statute as you wish.
This once again is spot-on reminiscent of that analogy I made a month or so ago to Michael Kinsley’s offering up his recommendation about federal banking policy although the issue in fact was an economics one based on extensive economics history and modeling by actual economists that Kinsley had no clue about.
You’re not a lawyer, so why do you keep making representations about law and then doubling and tripling down on them after it’s spelled out to you that you are flatly wrong? You made an allegation against Harris that is false. It matters not one whit that under the definition of a hate crime, or anything else, that you use the incident at issue constitutes a hate crime. It clearly does not constitute it under the actual statute. You should not claim indignantly that it does, and then keep saying it, or changing the subject from what the statute provides to what your opinion of what the statute should provide. Harris was not obligated to base her determinations on what you think the statute should, but does not, provide.
“And although you aren’t aware that terror, unlike, say, murder or vandalism precludes an act from also being classified as a hate crime, actually under most circumstances it does.”
And yet, Omar Mateen’s actions are being called both terror and a hate crime by the FBI. (First thing that comes up on google for me: https://www.rt.com/usa/346848-fbi-orlando-hate-crime-terrorism/)
As to my opining on laws… as any other resident or citizen of this country, I am subject to its laws. There is, or at least should be, there should be an obligation on those who make the laws that they be comprehensible to the people who must live under them. Otherwise if the average person cannot understand the law to which he or she is subject, they cannot know if their actions are legal or not. That way you end up with tyranny.
So no, Harris has no obligation to me. But if most of the public cannot see the difference between the Mateen and the two perps in San Bernardino, then either she should clarify it so the public could understand it, or it needs to be changed.
Run
absolutely
though i think the rivalry among grownups is mostly friendly and sane, when i was a kid it was enough to start a fight.
Beverly
i’ll come back when i have more time, but i was NOT changing the subject. i was trying to point out that a fight about words is not a fight worth having.
from my perspective someone who complains about “changing the subject” usually — not always — means they don’t want to think about what they want to fight about.
Beverly
I believe it was you who gave us a long essay to the effect that the scotch irish were particularly prone to acts of violence and cruelty. so i am not sure if the distinction you are making hangs on the words. “ethnic group.” Though I am not sure where that gets us.
And I thank you for clarifying the law, but i did not “acknowledge that Mike’s claim…. ” your sentence falls into grammatical insufficiency after that, but I think you may mean what you say in your next clause :
“you criticize me for pointing out…”
actually i don’t criticize you for pointing out [the law]. i criticized both of you for arguing about a silly issue (wait, i’ll modify that).
I am glad you clarified the law. with MIke, I think the law is apt to be misunderstood by the people, and probably does more harm than good. it might make the perennial victims feel like someone is looking out for them, but it really doesn’t change anything for them. it probably does give the perennial haters some reason to feel they are being picked on. this is not the way to solve racism or the disadvantage some “races” are or feel themselves under.
similary i wish Mike would stop sounding like a racist… it gives the haters aid and comfort, and it gives the professional victims another chance to say “see, they’re all racists…”
as for my feeling that the argument is silly, i am not so sure now that we have discussed it (unlike some, i do change my mind as a result of discussion sometimes.) i think the hate crime penalty enhance ment probably gives the courts room to be more cruel than they might otherwise be. and — to change the subject because the example that comes to my mind — is that the court added ten years to the sentence of John Walker Lindh, who had committed no crime in the first place beyond offending Ann Coulter, by “finding” that he had carried an explosive while committing the crime of being a soldier in an Afghan army fighting those noble warlords who suddenly found themselves on our side after 9/11.
the law makes me sick.
You’e kidding. Aren’t you? You don’t understand that the hate-crime part applies to his decision to target a, um, GAY bar, and that GAYS are among the groups whose protection is the very purpose of hate-crime statutes?
And that the terrorism part applies to his announced (but probably pretextual) motive concerning his country’s continued military presence in Afghanistan? (His parents are Afghan immigrants and active in Afghan-immigrant organizations.)
As for the clarity of the California hates-crimes statute, it’s awfully clear, Mike, whom it is intended to protect and what the motive of the perpetrator must be. The statute defines what it pertains to, in clear language using ordinary meanings of words. (It does not contain the term “hate crime,” btw.) But there are other laws, such as the Tax Code, that I guess are leading to tyranny, not because of the tax rate but because most people don’t understand it. Donald Trump and his accountants being exceptions. And, no, there is no requirement that words have exactly the breadth that most people would think the word used in a lay context would have—which is why statutes themselves usually define the key words in them.
In any event, Harris didn’t help write or vote for the hate-crimes statute, and as AG she has no authority to expand that statute’s, or any other statute’s, breadth and breach. (Talk about tyranny!)
I’m guessing that most of the public understands quite well that the hate-crime aspect of Mateen’s act pertains to the choice of targets. His actual motive appears to have been to prove to his father that he himself was not gay, although he apparently was. The Afghan-retaliation thing appears, as I said, pretextual, but since he made that claim it does qualify as terrorism.
Dale, when you’re talking about the meaning of a statute, it is the meaning of the statute’s words within the context of the statute that matter critically.
I, too, wish Mike would stop posting things here that sound racist. But even more than that, I wish he would stop posting things here based on clearly erroneous claims about the meanings of statutes or the like, seizing on some word or phrase that has a clear meaning within its context, and treating it as if it floats out there alone. That’s not the way legal interpretations–legal meanings–work. So why claim it is?
I presume he claims it is because he doesn’t get that it isn’t. Then, when it’s explained to him, he rants that the mechanism of statutory interpretation (or whatever) should be different. But it’s not different. So he should stop making claims based upon a (weird) interpretation that only he believes.
I assume he also doesn’t believe in global warming, because he’s not a scientist and doesn’t actually see the scientific models, and doesn’t believe in evolution because a lot of people don’t.
I think he should join the Flat Earth Society. In any case, he should stop posting in a technical area that he has no ability to understand–even if many other lay people would have no difficulty understanding what these things mean or apply to.
Oh, and Dale, no, it was not me who said Scotch Irish people are particularly prone to acts of violence and cruelty. I said that acts of cruelty toward dogs and cats seem much more prevalent in the South than in most other parts of the country. You said that that was a charge against the Scotch-Irish as an ethnic group.
But actually it was a charge against a part of Southern culture. My Scotch Irish friends in the Chicago area have dogs, love them dearly, and wouldn’t be caught dead being cruel to their own dogs or anyone else’s dogs or cats, or to strays.
Make that: “You’re kidding. Aren’t you?” Not “You’e kidding. Aren’t you?”
You ARE kidding, Mike, aren’t you?
Beverly,
I believe you are stating that according to the law, if someone from Group X has a slur used against them by someone who is not from Group X, it is a hate crime, but if someone from Group X kills 14 people because they are not members of Group X, it isn’t a hate crime. If that is correct, it would be interesting to see how that would play out if it was explained to the public in precisely that way. I would love to the see Attorney General of my state explain it on live television.
As to the fact that I cannot understand it – I am a reasonably intelligent guy, and am reasonably well read and well educated. If the law of the land, and let’s be realistic – these aren’t the finer points of corporate tax inversion, this is simple stuff – is too tough for people like me to understand, then it shouldn’t be the law of the land. You cannot expect people to follow basic law without understanding the law.
Mike I think you are missing some historical context here.
“Hate” crimes and related forms of crime based on violations of civil rights were in origin attempts (some 10th amendment types would say ‘bald attempts’) to bring certain violent crimes under federal jurisdiction. Often because the Feds could not count on State authorities to adequately pursue their own remedies under criminal law for certain groups of the population.
Murder is not a federal crime. Not as such. It has to be brought into some nexus with Federal jurisdiction under the Constitution. So murders that happen on federal property. Boom FBI has jurisdiction. Murders that directly interfere with interstate commerce. And now murders that intersect with various forms of federal civil rights laws.
You had similar things happen back in the 1930’s. Kidnapping was not a federal crime until the Feds decided it often coincided with taking victims across State lines and so out of the jurisdiction. Similarly bank robbers showed an alarming willingness to actually drive out of the jurisdiction of the local yokels whether town, county or State and across jurisdictional boundaries. The Feds say “Sorry, banks are BY DEFINITION engaged in interstate commerce and from this point forward bank robbers get to take it up with Eliot Ness (actually Melvin Purvis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melvin_Purvis)
So there is no particular mystery why the law seems to bend itself like a pretzel to define what is inside and outside “Hate Crime”. Because that is often just a byproduct of the history of what makes some things literal “Federal Offenses”.
In short there ain’t ANYTHING ‘simple’ about ‘basic law’. Not in a federal system like ours.
I am a HUGE even YUUUGE supporter of the Clean Water Act and its current extension by the Corps of Engineers to just about any waterbody in the country. It is simply the right thing to do and we can’t count on States to protect water quality against the massive influence of local economic interests. Hell we have a hard time doing it at the federal level.
That said it is Constitutional bullshit. But bullshit enabled by the Supreme Court at the turn of the 19th and 20th centuries when they pushed absurd limitations on the powers of the States to regulate such things as the 60 hour work week by pushing the powers of the Commerce Clause and Navigation Clause to truly absurd lengths. And though some of the specific attempts by the Courts to annul progressivism broke down ironically they ended up unleashing Congress to do whatever the hell it wanted as long as it could come up with SOME semi-plausible link to Interstate Commerce or its cousin Navigable Waters.
When does a river stop being ‘navigable’? You would be flabbergasted. Essentially any water source anywhere that is hydrologically connected to a river is under the jurisdiction of the Feds. And this includes sheet flow out of wetlands. And flood plains generally. And I am all for it!!! Fuck you 10th Amendmenters! We are enforcing the long moribund General Welfare Clause and you DON’T HAVE TO LIKE IT!!
Which makes me a hypocrite. Boo hoo. Cry me a (navigable) river.
Beverly
if you look up what you said re Scotch-Irish and direct me to it, I will refresh my memory. But I would be very surprised.
there is a difference between Scotch and Scotch-Irish.
and yes, i remember taking you to task for identifying “Southern culure” as uniformly cruel and racist.
meanwhile you and Mike are talking at cross purposes. nothing unusual in that, and i am grateful to you for “clarifying” the law and its rationale to us.
nevertheless my opinion of “the law” has not changed.
i remember from a biography of Thomas More the story of a Roman emperor who wanted to throw the family of someone he did not like to the lions. informed that roman law would not allow him to feed the man’s young daughter to the lions because she was a virgin, he asked his lawyers for advice. simple, said the lawyers; first deflower her then devour her. and that is pretty much the way the law works.
on one level it is probably a relatively honest and rational attempt to preserve order among the people. but it readily turns into an instrument of hideous cruelty… that the people largely ignore or are complicit in.
i share Mike’s “confusion” about “hate crimes,” and i accept your explanation. but i think its not an especially useful argument to be having as it gives people the idea we could make the situation better… either by fixing the law, or by understanding it.
let me know what you find out about ‘oo said what about the scotch irish.
Mike, the critical mistake you make is in not understanding (or not accepting) that legislatures—state ones and Congress—are entitled to enact statutes that address only a very specific, narrow problem, and that that’s what state legislatures and Congress did in enacting their hate-crime statutes. The problem these statutes are intended to address is crimes against members of certain groups against whom historically crimes are regularly committed for the reason that the victims are members of the group. These are groups against whom there has historically been broad animus and discrimination, and whom culturally certain elements in society feel free to commit cries motivated by hatred toward that group.
Gays have routinely been physically assaulted and even killed because they are gay. Much more so, African Americans, and also have been victims of vandalism and graffiti on their property (including on church grounds) for that reason. Jews have been victims of vandalism and graffiti (including on synagogues) and occasionally have been victims of shootings (at a Jewish Community Center near, I think, Kansas City a year or two ago, for example). This simply is not the case with co-workers; that is, there is no historical, cultural broad-based animus toward co-workers. Or toward federal employees, as occurred in the Oklahoma City federal building bombing.
So, yes, while it is a hate crime to target members of a specific group because of the victim’s membership in that group, it is not a hate crime to target people in order to make a political statement or create a climate of fear among the general public, even if the political statement is in support of the perpetrators’ religious group. It’s still a politically motivated act, not one motivated by hatred toward one specific group.
When you say that the California hate-crimes statute isn’t sufficiently clear what you really mean is that it doesn’t say what you think it should say; it’s not a catch-all. It’s narrowly targeted. It doesn’t include things you think something nicknamed “a hate-crimes statute” should include. But it’s wording and its purpose is quite clear.
Courts, including the Supreme Court, do strike down statutes as unconstitutionally vague. I’ll just say that this statute and ones like it are in no danger of being stricken down.
If I can give Bev an assist: from July 2014:
Conservative-Legal-Movement Law Is Really Just a Kaleidoscope
Which in turn blockquotes her comment from the previous post:
To the extent I understand the issue I have to give points to Ms. Mann here.
Oh, I know that there is a difference between Scottish and Scotch Irish. As I understand it, Scotch Irish are Scots who centuries ago moved from southeastern Scotland to northern Ireland. My Scotch Irish friends consider themselves Scottish because they are not Celtic but enthnically Scottish.
There is also a 1000 year+ difference between Highland Scot and Lowland Scot where the former were Celtic and Catholic and the latter Angles (as opposed to S England Saxons) who later were Protestants. That is ‘Scots’ as spoken by Robbie Burns is a dialect of English where Scotch Gaelic is a dialect of (duh) Gaelic.
The Scotch-Irish (of whom I have some ancestry) were recruited in large part by Cromwell and then King William (of Orange in the Netherlands before becoming the King WilliamandMary more familiar to colonials) from Protestant Lowland Scotland to live in Ireland as a bulwark of Prots against the Papists. With ramifications still to be felt down to today (Irish Prots still calling themselves ‘Orangemen’ and carry orange banners as against green).
So yes to the degree that we associate ‘Scots’ and ‘Scotch’ with Highland tartans and Bonnie Prince Charlie they are much different from either the Protestant Scots of Lowland Scotland or the Scotch-Irish of N. Ireland and then Appalachia.
For those REALLY wanting to be confused the Celtic Highland Scotch/Scots were themselves originally of Irish origin having settled on both sides of the Irish Sea in sub-Roman times. When ‘Ireland’ was also known as ‘Scottia’. All this a thousand years before the import of Protestants who shared no origin with those Highlanders into Ireland as Scotch-Irish.
All of which inclines me to have a few drams of a nice 22 year old distilled whiskey from the Isle of Islay. Called Scotch by Americans and made by Scots who have no actual relation to Scotch-Irish. Who are more likely to drink Everclear or Jack Daniels.
Wow. Bruce. Thanks!
Gosh. I’m really impressed with myself for that post. Not even any typos!
Seriously; thanks for finding it, Bruce.
“The problem these statutes are intended to address is crimes against members of certain groups against whom historically crimes are regularly committed for the reason that the victims are members of the group. ”
I don’t know. The list of hate crimes includes attacks against members of religious groups that barely had any members in the US until recently. In such cases, the reason for inclusion as a hate crime has to be something different from that they were historically victims of such crimes. The fact of the matter is, it makes no sense to include “crime against person in group X is a hate crime, but crime by person in group X specifically against people not in group X” is not a hate crime.
Bruce
i don’t think the post you are quoting from was the same one i reacted to.
doesn’t really make any difference. i am glad if she does not put us all in the same basket.
as for the story about scots, irish, scotch-irish.. scotch irish is a word that apparently only exists in America and refers to lowland scots whose language turns out to be a kind of english (or german) having nothing to do with gaelic. beyond that i wouldn’t claim to know much, except they were on the wrong side at Culloden. but as for that, the highland scots, besides being victims of the British, who could be brutal, had a not very nice culture of their own… the scots at Culloden were mostly essentially draftees. and if stinking William deserved his reputation the moorhen bonnie prince charlie was not exactly the hero type.
there’s a moral here somewhere, but it’s not the one i hear when the pipes are calling.
Dale it might not have been the same post but was almost certainly related, I suspect you could work your way back from it. And use Google like I did.
And for what it is worth the ‘native’ term for Scotch-Irish seems to be Ulster Scots. And the story told in this Wiki entry seems to match well enough with what I know about these things:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster_Scots_people
As to Culloden I am not seeing that these folks were even participants, still less on the losing side. Certainly the ‘Scotch-Irish’ of Appalachia so feted by my cousin (not really) Senator Jim Webb in his book on same were not entirely the result of settlement in the aftermath of a battle fought in Scotland in 1745. That is we seem to be looking at two different immigrant populations, one by way of Ulster (including my ancestors the Grahams) and the other more directly from Lanarkshire and Ayr in South Central and SW Scotland (Arbuckle ancestors).
Bruce
when i said they were on the wrong side, i meant they were on the winning side.. the bad guys.
otherwise your history of the scotch-irish is pretty much the way i remember it.
as for Beverly’s rant on the scotch irish violence and cruelty, i am afraid my memory is very strongly in disagreement with the quote from beverly you cited. i would have to be the last to deny that my memory could be mistaken, but i am sure you will see what it would be difficult for me to believe that it is. like i said, though, it doesn’t matter. and i am glad to hear that in any case she doesn’t believe in that racial stereotype now.
as for me, i would have to admit that many of my neighbors who appear to be of scotch irish descent are quite capable of being as stupid and cruel as any other race or nationality i have heard of.
[and now, dear god, i have to point out that that last sentence does not mean what half … most… of the people who read it will think it does. but it is what i have learned to expect after seventy years of across the back fence arguments… fights… with people determined to take every thing i say when i am trying to be reasonable as a deliberate insult to them, their race, and their mothers memory.]
Well I’ll agree to agree on 90% of that. With the 10% reservation being that accusing people of a “rant” based on a belief that while your memory THEORETICALLY could be mistaken it would be “difficult” to believe that it is doesn’t quite get up to scratch. It took me less than a minute of Googling to pull up that post that in turn quoted a comment from an earlier post that directly contradicted your assertion. If your assertion was despite all that STILL correct based on some half-remembered OTHER post then Mr. Google is at your full disposal.
Me I like evidence based accusations. Odd in the Flame War era I know, but there it is.
Mike, look. Do you seriously think Congress and state legislatures are gonna enact a statute that says that the hate-crimes criminal enhancement applies only to religious, ethnic, racial and other types of groups (e.g., gays) that have been present in this country in large numbers dating back to some set date or era? Seriously?
And why would they? The POINT of these statutes is create a strong disincentive to harm ANY group that has been or is likely to be the target of criminal harassment or violence because of cultural animus toward them as a group.
Period. That’s the purpose, the point, the reason for, hate-crime statutes—and by the language of those statutes, the breadth to which they apply.
So it sure as hell does make sense to include “crime against person in group X is a hate crime, but not crime by person in group X specifically against people not in group X”. I get that you don’t understand this, and that nothing I or anyone else could say will cause you to have an epiphany.
These statutes have a specific, narrow purpose that you think they shouldn’t have. You think they should have been drafted more broadly. I assume you do finally understand that they were not. So, progress.
I take it that you live in California now. So vote against Harris, and for Trump, as you are planning to do, and contact your state legislators and urge them to amend the statute. But Harris interprets the statute correctly as currently written. And you’re surely wrong that most people wouldn’t understand the statute to say what it clearly does say.
You, like millions of other Trumpsters, are obsessed with this type of thing. But most people, including many Trumpsters (or, after this weekend, former Trumpsters, probably—the ones who were in the other basket, not the deplorables one) understand what hate-crimes statutes are and what their purpose is, and are fine with it.
What a dumb controversy.
Beverly
i agree it is a dumb controversy. but i’d be a little slow to conclude that all of the dumb is on Mike’s side.
i got lost in his presentation of the statistical facts. i got more lost in each of your presentations of the law in your case, and the logic in Mike’s case.
i thought you and i were in agreement that writing a law exclusively to address an serious social problem was justifiable even it it was not strictly logical when cast in a frame that includes similar related “crimes.” i had in mind the laws in germany, for example, against certain forms of speech. being an advocate of free speech myself, i had to work to “understand” that the real-world implications of certain kinds of hate speech in germany were too dire to risk unlimited free speech.
but here you seem to be contradicting that (my?) understanding of your position. so call me dumb, but i don’t understand. meanwhile i don’t see what hate crime legislation (in America) adds to the actual domestic tranquility and welfare of the usual hate-target people.
anyway, feel free to call me dumb. it doesn’t hurt me. but it probably does hurt you.
Here is what I got from all of this. If a couple ISIS followers walk into a Church and gun down a bunch of parishioners, it is a hate crime if they first they yell “Death to Catholics” but it isn’t a hate crime if they lead off with “Death to the Infidels” instead.
Bruce
i looked at the google record and found a lot of smoke strongly suggesting there had been some heated discussion re scotch irish propensity for cruelty and violence. but i did not actually find the fire.
so call me stupid and hallucinatory and lacking evidence for a flame war…
except in my mind there was never a flame war. in fact, what i have been specifically targeting in my non SS posts on this blog is the propensity of some people who should know better to feel themselves or their friends attacked when there is no evidence that attack was intended. unless of course Rodney King directed his own beating.
i don’t expect to win any converts. it’s just a hobby of mine.
it is hardly worth my time to do intensive research to “prove” Beverly said something she no longer says. and if she can keep not saying it i will have heartsease.
though the comedy of her and Mike missing each other’s point is, well, not encouraging.
Bruce
for what it’s worth, i was not accusing Beverly of “ranting”, i was referring to the topic of Beverly’s (alleged) rant.
no doubt the fault is mine for thinking that would be understood. it is the kind of fault that should be easily remedied, except that once someone’s back is up everything they see is red.