Republicans are like Expensive Oil — Washington Post
Do my eyes deceive me ? Is this the Washington Post ? Is Ezra Klein writing under the double pseudonym “Neil Irwin and Michael A. Fletcher” ?
Irwin and Fletcher warn of two threats to the US economy — high oil prices and tea partiers (call it the Texas tea party menace).
U.S. economic recovery threatened by events in Midwest, Middle East
The standoff over benefits for public employees in Wisconsin, pitting Gov. Scott Walker (R) against unions and their Democratic allies, presages battles in many state capitals that could lead to hundreds of thousands of public jobs being cut nationwide. And in Washington, congressional Republicans are demanding steep, immediate budget cuts that economic forecasters estimate would slow the pace of economic growth in 2011.
Obviously true, yet I couldn’t guess what two threats they had in mind. I knew that I consider cutting public spending when in a liquidity trap to be a threat to the economy, but I didn’t know that reporters were allowed to write that.
If this isn’t proof that the Washington Post works for Goldman Sachs, what could be that proof.
Gee, Robert. Ya mean that WaPo has behind-the-scenes sponsors? All the guys like Samuelson, Irwin, and Fletcher get their opinions from sources like GS, the Peterson gang, the Koch’s and so on? Wow! Who’da thunk it? Of course, for once, GS is right. Much despised though they be, public jobs are jobs and unions, otherwise detestable, resist unnecessary lay-offs and pay cuts for public and private sector workers. There is a great deal to be said for a functioning government and economy, after all. Nancy Ortiz
What recovery?
What recovery?
Steven Pearlstein in the WaPo echo chamber:
Making sense of Wisconsin’s union showdown
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/02/22/AR2011022207620.html?nav=rss_opinion/columns
NO,
public jobs are jobs
Not all jobs are created equal. Read this investigation by the LA Times into $5.7B California community college construction bond:
Billions to Spend
Waste throws wrench into Los Angeles community colleges’ massive projectPoor planning, frivolous spending and shoddy work dog the sprawling system’s bond-financed construction program
The reality? Tens of millions of dollars have gone to waste because of poor planning, frivolous spending and shoddy workmanship, a Times investigation found.
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-build1-20110227,0,6407507,full.story
Sammy, that’s LA. I can truly say, having been there, that what happens in LA very often stays in LA. They got their own problems and their very own idiotic messes. SSA doesn’t operate like that and neither does most of the rest of the federal govt. Except, of course, the DOD as ilsm so ably points out.
Oh, and yes, all jobs are created equal. Besides, bad idea to quote Orwell. It puts one in mind of the “eternal war” and “love is hate” of 1984. Prompts unpleasant comparisons. NancyO
Spending is spending. Spending is to the economy as air is to a balloon. Cutting spending will either slow the recovery or throw the economy into another recession. Cutting spending is an idiotic decision made by people who really don’t understand how the economy actually works.
Nancy,
Sammy, that’s LA. ……what happens in LA very often stays in LA. They got their own problems and their very own idiotic messes. SSA doesn’t operate like that and neither does most of the rest of the federal govt. Except, of course, the DOD as ilsm so ably points out.
This is where conservatives and libs differ. You think that this is some sort of aberration based on geography. I think it is the norm, and that without the LA Times investigation we wouldn’t have ever found out about it. I would wager that if a similar investigation of any random “Stimulus” project, the same things would be found.
The reason I would wager is that there is a fundamental difference between spending your own, or companies’ own money, and tax payer money. If this happened in a private company, multiple heads would roll. The reason it probably wouldn’t happen is that a private company would make sure to have competent people and plans in place. When it is Other Peoples Money, who really cares?
PJ,
Spending is spending
This is the Keysian line. But, as Nixon might say today: “We are NOT all Keysians now.”
If aggregate demand is C + I + G and you increase G spending, it comes at the expense of C & I, unless you run a deficit.
You might think building half-completed parking lots (as in the LA Times piece) is equivalent to leaving the money in the private sector that spends on goods and services that have actual value(C), or invests in new productive job-creating assets (I), but I do not.
Sammy
In a discussion about public jobs you manage to find an example of a public commission likely to be staffed with politically appointed commissioners doing business with private contractors. So how does that relate to public employees eg teachers, police officers, sanitation workers, etc. Those employees are most often appointed on the basis of civil service tests and competitve assignment. They work under a combination of civil service regulations and union contract. How is that in any way analagous to your example?
Sammy,
How come you worry on LA getting ripped off? Not all private sector jobs are real jobs.
You are not worried about the US being ripped off by the pentagon? Why worry local contracts at a few million, they cannot squander the SSTF nor print more money? There are hundreds of billions a year to be culled in the military industrial complex waste.
See the US military industrial complex. Socialized industry which does not perform.
Each year end of March the GAO reports http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d10388sp.pdf on how the top pentagon acquisition programs are overrunning, late to deliver and way off on meeting the contracts. That was $1.6T and growing in acquisitions and DoD spends over $200B a year on thsoe and far less well performing smaller programs which get less attention. In 2010 GAO did not put a figure on the total because statutory acquisition reports were not delivered by DoD.
Then there are the huge DoD operations and support budgets, over $300B a year with extras for buying unperforming contracts and expensive expendable stuff for the wars.
If they cut all the DoD contracts which were not performing or could not see the need or progress the US could nearly balance the budget.
USAF and Navy will be in trouble with their bloated fighter inventory, some badly designed planes are wearing out too fast and the replacements are coming in way too late way too expensive and way too heavy. http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d11323r.pdf
Not all private sector indiustries are capitalists.
Takes a lot of socialism to profit the US’ private arsenal system and see how bad they are.
Jack,
So how does that relate to public employees eg teachers, police officers, sanitation workers, etc
Here is a link to the top 700 or so public employees salaries in Portland OR for 2009-2010. http://media.oregonlive.com/portland_impact/other/portland-payroll.pdf
The top person on the list, the Police Chief, made $168K. #700, a Fire Lieutenant, made $100K. This does not include the generous health insurance and retirement benefits, which might add 30-50% to the value of their salary.
Look through the list. Lots and lots of firefighters. (I didn’t know we had such a fire problem in Portland. I rarely hear of any fires). Anyhoo…. how does this “relate”? Answer: because if we are overpaying public sector employees, or have too many of them, we are wasting money. It is not a benefit to the economy, per Keynes (which is what the discussion is about), because if these guys are not providing commensurate societal utility, we are destroying value.
To provide a stark example, it would be like taking money from the economy and paying someone to sit at a lunch counter. Keynes would say this is good. I say not.
ilsm,
I agree with you that there is probably is a lot of waste in the DoD. After all, it is run by the government. Where there is waste, get rid of it!
Police and firefighters are easily the best paid public workers. engineers, planners, librarians – nowhere near. but it is really risky work – what would you compare them to – oil field workers? They’re very well paid too. and you don’t want them tempted to take bribes.
RE portland – note that a lot of the folks on the list don’t have salaries that high – they had lots of overtime. probably because they are understaffed. Also it’s not fair to just look at the “top 700”
I have seen my share of wasteful local government spending, but it’s been the result of either bad contacting to the private sector (often political) or by weird things the elected officials add into the project. I’ve also seen pet projects the city council was smart enough to not fund get paid through politically connected earmarks.
sammy,
That list is an eye opener. It would interesting to see such lists from all around the nation.
sammy: “If aggregate demand is C + I + G and you increase G spending, it comes at the expense of C & I, unless you run a deficit.”
Bingo! That’s why all this fear of the deficit is harming the economy. It prevents up from creating jobs. Remember, customers create jobs. We need spending, and we need it yesterday.
Well, if all we can do is point at examples of more highly paid public jobs and then claim it represents the entire sector, there is little room to debate.
It is easy to counter the statement that since OR does not have a fire problem the firefighters are superfluous as you claim sammy, with the statement well paid firefighters keep OR from having a fire problem so to speak.
It seems impossible to separate out competing and multiple levels of reality in the whirlwind of perceptions and thoughts on comment threads. Having had experience with governors who look past state needs with an eye on the prize of national prominance means more often than not that slogans rule in public statements, and real negotiation is overwhelmed by the need to political correctness for national voters, not state voters.
I don’t understand how an anecdote about wasteful public spending in LA demonstrates that public jobs aren’t jobs. If you eventually get a job in the private sector, sammy, you’ll discover there’s plenty of wasteful spending there too. Only the ignorant and the dishonest would pretend that publice spending has any monopoly on waste.
The politics of convenient reasoning are pervasive and change in directions less to do with fiscal responsibility, I believe, than shifting power balances on a national level. The field is muddied also by the introduction of a myriad proposals on abortion and other issues simultaneous to fiscal responsibility.
sammy: “This is where conservatives and libs differ. You think that this is some sort of aberration based on geography”
This is where conservatives and libs differ. You think this is some sort of aberation based on public vs private, and that private sector actors somehow build multi-million dollar facilities with no snafus.
Note that almost every failure in your article consisted of:
A: Private contractors screwing things up
B: Problems due to inconsistent funding, thanks to Republicans
Btw, you are right that firefighters (and cops) are often overpaid and have far too many ways to spike pensions. However, since they are not reliable Democrats, Walker and the gang have chosen to exempt them. Hmmm….that makes sense, right? How many teachers are on your Portland top 100 list? Probably zero.
As a counterpoint to Robert’s title. Democrats are like out of control teens with daddy’s credit card!
From Obama’s homestate we have this message:
Illinois seeks to borrow $3.7 billion to shore up pension shortfall
Within we have this little piece of IL history: Illinois’ pension system is one of the most poorly funded in the nation, with less than 40 percent of its $139 billion in liabilities funded, according to state figures….
Under former governor Rod Blagojevich, the state sold $10 billion in bonds, hoping to make 8.5 percent interest by investing it while paying only about 5 percent interest on the bonds.
But the pension investments have earned only about 3 percent so far, making the issue a loser.”
For the spending is everything crowd, borrowing is everythihg, also????? Can we see a show of hands of those who think will end well?
sammy, I seem to have missed what you do for a living and how much you earn for it. Stock broker? Somehow connected to the greatly respected Wall Street banks? What ever you do, I don’t doubt you work very hard for what you earn and deserve every penny. Why don’t you give other people the same credit for earning their pay? What is it that drives you to have such contempt for people who would gladly risk their lives to save yours? Rhetorical questions, of course. Just never mind. NancyO
Sammy:
So Jeremy the fire fighter has a base salary of $71,000, receives a premium, and over time because the city refuses to hire more firefighters and in the end makes a total of $105,000. Wow, I am impressed. So what would you suggest the pay should be for going into a burning building, or going into the World Trade Center, and then have the Congressional asses like McCain delay passage of bills to assist fire fightes who suffer healthcare issues from being at the WTC.
No MG, it is not an eye opener. A better comparison would be to look at the salaries of those who gave us the 2008 economic crash or even that of Greenspan who established the stage for much of it to happen. Jeremy the firefighter is not the issue here and you both are tilting with windmills (MG you are disingenuous with your faux intellect of C&P) by attacking public workers. Better yet why not those who did cause us real issues:
“Four of the top 25 CEOs worked at financial companies, two on Wall Street: former Lehman Brothers CEO Fuld, at No. 11 with $457 million, and former Citigroup Inc. CEO Sandy Weill, who ranked 19th at $361 million. The others were Mr. Fairbank and former Countrywide Financial Corp. CEO Angelo Mozilo.”
In a good economy with more people working in the Civilian Labor Force, we would not be having this conversation. Instead, we are battling over the crumbs that have fallen from the table of those who have sold the country and labor to foreign countries.
Sammy:
So Jeremy the fire fighter has a base salary of $71,000, receives a premium, and over time because the city refuses to hire more firefighters and in the end makes a total of $105,000. Wow, I am impressed. So what would you suggest the pay should be for going into a burning building, or going into the World Trade Center, and then have the Congressional asses like McCain delay passage of bills to assist fire fightes who suffer healthcare issues from being at the WTC.
No MG, it is not an eye opener. A better comparison would be to look at the salaries of those who gave us the 2008 economic crash, even that of Greenspan who established the stage for much of it to happen, or perhaps that of those who caused the dioxin contamination in Michigan and Wisconsin or Love Canal. Jeremy the firefighter is not the issue here and you both are tilting with windmills by attacking public workers. Better yet why not those who did cause us real issues:
“Four of the top 25 CEOs worked at financial companies, two on Wall Street: former Lehman Brothers CEO Fuld, at No. 11 with $457 million, and former Citigroup Inc. CEO Sandy Weill, who ranked 19th at $361 million. The others were Mr. Fairbank and former Countrywide Financial Corp. CEO Angelo Mozilo.”
In a good economy with more people working in the Civilian Labor Force, we would not be having this conversation. Instead, we are battling over the crumbs that have fallen from the table of those who have sold the country and labor to foreign countries. The issue is still job creation rather than disparaging those amongst us who are still working.
NO,
These fireman make in the top 5% or so of taxpayers, plus Cadillac benefits, and so qualify as “the rich” that deserve to pay a LOT more in income taxes. So you want to pay them well, but take it back?
What is it that drives you to have such contempt for people who would gladly risk their lives to save yours? Rhetorical questions, of course. Just never mind. Sammy
Yes Min.
If GDP = C + I + G, by definition it goes up Year 1 when you increase G via a deficit (h/t Goldman Sachs). The problem comes in Year 2 – do you continue to run a deficit? If not, then GDP goes back to prior levels. If you do continue to run a deficit the problem comes in subsequent years – when you have to pay the debt back – aa G gets crowded out by interest payments.
CoRev:
A ramp-up program was put in place in 1994 to fix the pension programs. Unfortunately the growth in revenues has not kept up with the costs of government mostly driven by healthcare, inflation, regressive tax policy, etc.
“Instead, it is caused primarily by an antiquated, regressive state tax system that simultaneously overtaxes low and middle-income working families while failing to respond to the modern economy.43 In fact, as Figure 9 demonstrates, on an inflation adjusted basis,44 over the last decade Illinois has cut aggregate spending on all public services other than education, healthcare and the pension system. Put another way, paying for the state’s prior deferment of its obligation to fund pensions has cut into Illinois’ ability to fund current public services, and has exacerbated Illinois’ ongoing fiscal problems. http://www.ctbaonline.org/All%20Links%20to%20Press%20and%20Reports/Home%20Page/CTBA%20Final%20Pension%20Report%2011.13.06.pdf
While Blag the impaler was an idiot, there are underlying circumstances not associated with him or Obama. Rading pension funds certainly did not start with the gov. You only have to look to big bus. to learn the manner in which to do it. “The Great American Pension Fund Robbery” http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/03_36/b3848039_mz007.htm BofA led the way and became the model for raiding pension funds with their cash-balance plan. Who was the Pres then?
Sammy:
No, those making 105,000 are not in the top 5%. Those making > $250,000 are within the top 3%. You have to go a good ways before you get to 105,000 which is where you would probably find the most common salary in your list. http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/numbers/displayatab.cfm?DocID=1823&topic2ID=40&topic3ID=81&DocTypeID=1
Nancy:
Sammy can’t can’t get out of his rocker. Late, I am off to go snow-shoeing. This thread is the usual conflated BS as orchestrated by the trolls.
CoRev,
Thanks for setting me straight, I was confused about who were democrats.
I did not know Ronald Reagan and George Walker Bush were flaunt Daddy’s credit card democrats. Nor that Clinton and Truman who cut debt and deficits were not democrats.
Sammy,
Retired military especially since St Ronald raised our pay by 24% in his first years in office, Buff, MG and I have it significantly better than retired municipal fire fighters and police officers.
Check out MG and buffpilot (I am Vietnam era so a little better off), retired military officers O-5’s retired when they were 43, and collecting somewhere above $50,000 per year. Very low medical insurance premiums for the family if they took the low option, like I, there is no premium.
And every cent in the “military retirement trust funds” was put there by the US treasury, making those $430B trust funds entirely taxpayer funded, or better treasury debt borrowing power supported.
The issue is the shambles of the productive side of the economy, and the extent that empire, and unwarranted influence of the empire’s military industrial complex has made it hard for the US to produce enough to take care of the 300 million people depending on the US economy.
Min,
I would like to amend my comment thanks to your link:
These fireman make in the top 13.7% or so of taxpayers, plus Cadillac benefits, and so qualify as “the rich” that deserve to pay a LOT more in income taxes.
I would also like to propose an amendment to “Godwin’s Law” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law :
First one to call another a “Troll” loses the argument.
But Jack, those CEO’s probably meet Sammy’s criteria of “providing commensurate societal utility.” I think they have done their part on the creative destruction front. Firefighters only retard this important process. 🙂
There’s plenty of “poor planning, frivolous spending and shoddy workmanship” in the private sector. The difference is that it’s typically covered by building the costs into prices. Here’s an entertaining anecdote: a new house built across the street from me. Bad planning (a construction short-cut that will come back to bite the owners in the ass withn a few years), frivolous (double typical prices in the neighborhood), and shoddy workmanship (I’ve watched a parade of construction, rennovation, and restoration crews for 18 months since it was sold and occupied). The builder’s profit margin more than pays for the continuing expenses, and the owners really don’t need all of that house and its bells and whistles to be liveable at any one time. That “poor planning, frivolous spending and shoddy workmanship” accounts for at least one-third of the price, which the highly experienced builder understood from the start.
The LA Times says it found “tens of millions of dollars” in waste out of $5.7 billion, so they haven’t looked very hard. Under two percent? They obviously quit after finding enough for a shocking story. That’s a true public service but it says nothing about the relative inefficiency of government spending, even in LA.
I would also like to propose an amendment to “Godwin’s Law”: First one to behave like a troll loses the argument.
But thanks for playing, sammy. Do play again sometime.
Anyone care to look at the numbers with Obama’s stimulus? and iwth it phasing down?
run,
You pretending that Portland, Oregon is located in downtown NYC and elsewhere in some of your other crazy examples of supposed comparison. That’s laughable.
The wage comparison is made on the other coast in Portland, Oregon. Apparently, you’re not aware of the wages nor median income in that community. So, you jump up and pretend that Portland’s city government wages should be compared to all the stuff that you posted in your rant.
sammy,
Here’s the salary and wage table for all City of Portland job classifications. Hourly, monthly, and annual compensation are identified for each position.
http://www.portlandonline.com/omf/index.cfm?c=27766&a=308512
I tired to find the personnel costs in the city’s annual budget, but I didn’t find that roll up. Costs are buried in the operations as far as I could tell.
Dan,
sammy’s reference identifies roughly 700 of 5700 employees employed by the City of Portland, Oregon. That’s about 12% of the city’s total employment. The list has been published annually for a few years.
Here’s the salary and wage table for all City of Portland job classifications. Hourly, monthly, and annual compensation are identified for each position.
http://www.portlandonline.com/omf/index.cfm?c=27766&a=308512
Employment with the City of Portland compares favorably with most private employment in Portland based on job openings and wage comparisons. Such considerations exclude all benefit packages and employee share contributions. The City of Portland requires 5% employee participation across the board for full time employment based on my review of such agreements.
Generally, city employees in Portland, Oregon are doing quite well with regard to their wages, benefits, area cost of living, and any comparisons to available employment opportunities elsewhere in the city and local region.
sammy,
Here’s a total compensation comparison:
http://oregoncapitolnews.com/govdocs/portland/salaries/?like-first_name=&like-last_name=&bureau=&job=&total=&campaign=1&page=1
Note the “toggle” feature.
Here’s a total compensation comparison:
http://oregoncapitolnews.com/govdocs/portland/salaries/?like-first_name=&like-last_name=&bureau=&job=&total=&campaign=1&page=1
Good presentation.
And this article states that the city employs approximately 9,000 employess:
http://oregoncapitolnews.com/blog/2010/10/04/1-in-5-portland-city-employees-earn-six-figures-in-2009/
The city budget section on number of employees does not support the article’s statement of approximately 9.000 employees.
I’ve worked in the public and private sectors during my life. First, early on and for only a few years, I was a public school teacher in NYC. I then worked for more than twenty years in a state run system of residential and training services for the developmentally disabled, first as a clinician and then as a mid level manager. Then I spent a bit more than twenty years in the private sector in very high line automotive sales. The most draining was teaching. The most frustrating was institutional services. The easiest and best paying has been hi-line auto sales. Of course the people in the private sector think they bring unique talents to their jobs. If you are one of them try the public sector and see if you can hack it for the chump change that you are paid. Teaching is the most difficult and the most difficult. And in both public and private sector is most burdened by their managements.
If you think the worker is to blame go back to Edward Deming’s teachings and come to recognize that we all suffer under mediocre and bloated management in what ever sector you may work.
run,
You appear to have no idea what personal income level represents the top 5% of earners in Portland, Oregon.
MG,
You like lists of waste in state and local projects.
http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d10388sp.pdf
This GAO report contains the granddaddy of waste in public works.
Just a couple of figures about what GAO found concerning the 100 or so most expensive and wasteful US government projects: in the 2009 report it totalled $1.6 Trillion, to be spent, this is about 30% of the R&D/Procurement spending of the US government agency. To try and operate the things it already uses is $300B a year, much of it on services contracts which are best effort, and paid for labor provided because the stuff maintained is low quality, and overran so reliability and quality were not affordable.
In 2010 report linked GAO could not tell if the commitments would be $1.6T or 45% more because the US government did not file required reports with congress by May 2009 nor had they by Jan 2010 when GAO had to put the report together.
The mismanaged contracts are sustaining unwarranted influence which prevents this fraud, and waste from contributing to the hunt for deficfit reduction.
I will report on the GAO 2011 report as it is released in Apr 2011, unless the tea party and their handlers surpress GAO.
Oh by the way the US government agency making LA look well managed is DoD.
Run75441, are you conflating household data and individual data? When you to the expandad version of the data you cited, and look at SINGLE people, you find that $105000 puts you about 93% percentile. You seem to be comparing one firefighter’s income with all households, which contain a lot of dual income couples.
There is no reason a cop or firefighter should be making anywhere near this kind of money. The risk premium they deserve is modest, around a few thousand dollars per year. Their jobs aren’t even all that dangerous, and are far safer than such mundane jobs such as farmer or truck driver.
Chad:
Quite honestly, you don’t know what you are talking about when it comes to putting your life in danger. Get shot at once and see what you would do. Get caught in a burning building once and see if you have an interest in putting the fire out or saving lives. Grow up Chad . . . What have you done to serve your community and expose yourself to damger?
And thanks silly for making my point, $105,000 is not a part of the 5 percentile.
MG:
You would not do what Fire Fighter, Police, etc. do because you couldn’t and for that matter neither would I. They are paid for what they do and expose themselves to danger neither you, Sammy, or CoRev would ever dream of doing. I can say this, having been paid $101/month as a PFC and less than $200/month as a Marine Corporal wasn’t enough to take incoming for yours and Sammy’s whiney asses. You are disingenuous MG and I will stop there because I want this post to stick . . .
The Portland Public Salary lisitng is not delinitive enough to make a comarison which is why I picked one and it doesn’t matter which one I chose. It doesn’t matter what is n the list because we do not know what their job descriptions are. Consequently, you and Sammy deserve no more than what you claim to be a rant as your basis does not have a foundation. I would have thought another copy and paste by you would be on order . . .
The Portland Oregon salaries are in line for what that city would and should pay. The median icome being lower than NYC for fire fighters. So, go fish MG.
MG:
You would not do what Fire Fighter, Police, etc. do because you couldn’t and for that matter neither would I. They are paid for what they do and expose themselves to danger neither you, Sammy, or CoRev would ever dream of doing. I can say this, having been paid $101/month as a PFC and less than $200/month as a Marine Corporal wasn’t enough to take incoming for yours and Sammy’s whiney asses. You are disingenuous MG and I will stop there because I want this post to stick . . .
The Portland Public Salary lisitng is not delinitive enough to make a comarison which is why I picked one and it doesn’t matter which one I chose. It doesn’t matter what is n the list because we do not know what their job descriptions are. Consequently, you and Sammy deserve no more than what you claim to be a rant as your basis does not have a foundation. I would have thought another copy and paste by you would be on order . . .
The Portland Oregon salaries are in line for what that city would and should pay. The median icome being lower than NYC for fire fighters. So, go fish MG.
MG:
Not pretnding anything and you are making lite of what these people do for “you” and I. You would not do what a Fire Fighter, Police, etc. do because you couldn’t and for that matter neither could I anymore. They are paid for what they do by exposing themselves to danger neither you, Sammy, or CoRev would ever dream of doing. Having been paid $101/month as a PFC and less than $200/month as a Marine Corporal wasn’t enough to take incoming for yours and Sammy’s whiney asses. You are disingenuous MG and I will stop there because I want this post to stick . . .
The Portland Public Salary lisitng is not definitive enough to make a comparison which is why I picked one and it doesn’t matter which one I chose. It doesn’t matter what is n the list because we do not know what the job descriptions are. Consequently, you and Sammy deserve no more than what you claim to be a rant as your basis does not have a foundation. I would have thought another copy and paste by you would be on order . . .
The Portland Oregon salaries are in line for what that city would and should pay with the median icome being lower than NYC for fire fighters. So, go fish MG. :0
run75441 – “Not pretnding anything and you are making lite of what these people do for “you” and I.”
That’s a lie. I have made no such comments on this thread or any other thread on this blog. In this conversation, I stated: “That list is an eye opener. It would interesting to see such lists from all around the nation.” And you ran around in circles trying to compare the public employee payroll of the City of Portland, Oregon to “salaries of those who gave us the 2008 economic crash, even that of Greenspan who established the stage for much of it to happen, or perhaps that of those who caused the dioxin contamination in Michigan and Wisconsin or Love Canal.” Basically, you’re crazy.
I responded to your nonsense, stating: “You[‘re] pretending that Portland, Oregon is located in downtown NYC and elsewhere in some of your other crazy examples of supposed comparison. That’s laughable. The wage comparison is made on the other coast in Portland, Oregon. Apparently, you’re not aware of the wages nor median income in that community. So, you jump up and pretend that Portland’s city government wages should be compared to all the stuff that you posted in your rant.”
Now, you have come back with another comment post filled with nonsense.
run75441 – “You would not do what a Fire Fighter, Police, etc. do because you couldn’t and for that matter neither could I anymore. They are paid for what they do by exposing themselves to danger neither you, Sammy, or CoRev would ever dream of doing. Having been paid $101/month as a PFC and less than $200/month as a Marine Corporal wasn’t enough to take incoming for yours and Sammy’s whiney asses. You are disingenuous MG and I will stop there because I want this post to stick . . .”
In my early years, I worked public security and served as a firefighter. And I have undertaken other public and private jobs that involved a helluva lot of personal and public risk as have many other people across the nation. So, shut up.
run75441 – “The Portland Public Salary lisitng is not definitive enough to make a comparison which is why I picked one and it doesn’t matter which one I chose. It doesn’t matter what is n the list because we do not know what the job descriptions are. Consequently, you and Sammy deserve no more than what you claim to be a rant as your basis does not have a foundation. I would have thought another copy and paste by you would be on order . . . ”
You’re a poor researcher. The City of Portland, Oregon job descriptions are available as are the pay scales and multiple labor agreements. I already posted the entire city job position listing which includes pay scales on the first and second pages of this thread.
run75441 – “The Portland Oregon salaries are in line for what that city would and should pay with the median icome being lower than NYC for fire fighters. So, go fish MG. :0”
You have no idea if the “Portland Oregon salaries are in line for what that city would and should pay…” You haven’t performed the research necessary to support your claims. You haven’t even stated the median income level for Portland, Oregon.
According to the following source, 581 City of Portland employees have total compensation in excess of $120,000 per year, and another 1104 city employees pull down total compensation in excess of $100,000 per year. Taxpayers in the City of Portland would be interested in a comparison of wages, salaries, and total compensation within their own community and neighboring communities, not a comparison with a huge city on the opposite coast of […]
sammy,
Add in the rest of the compensation package.
Here’s a total compensation comparison for many public employees in Portland, Oregon:
http://oregoncapitolnews.com/govdocs/portland/salaries/?like-first_name=&like-last_name=&bureau=&job=&total=&campaign=1&page=1
run,
You’re whole “risking your life” meme is out of date:
Sirens wail for medical calls, not fires
Firefighters’ duties shift as city sees fewer blazes
In fact, the role of firefighters has changed dramatically over the past few decades, both in Portland and
across the country. Fighting blazes now is a small and dwindling part the job of being a firefighter. The largest
and fastest growing part of the job is responding to medical emergencies – and that part is increasing as the
population grows and ages.
The relatively low number of structure fires is even more remarkable. Out of 3,682 fire calls last year, the
bureau responded to fewer than 800 fires in residential or commercial structures. In comparison, it responded
to more than 600 motor vehicle and trailer fires and roughly the same number of grass, bark dust and tree
fires.
http://www.portlandonline.com/fish/index.cfm?a=213583&c=47690
So you are paying over 200 firefighters in Portland $100K+ per year to respond to fewer than 800 “real” fires.
min,
Since 1903, 20 Portland firefighters and two South Portland firefighters have died in the line of duty.
http://www.pressherald.com/news/fallen-firefighters-sacrifice-honored_2010-10-04.html
I recognize firefighters are exceptionally brave, but this works out to about 1 firefighter death every 6 years. If you figure 1,000 firefighters for every year, this works out to a mortality rate of 1 in 6,000. I would bet the “modern” numbers are even less.
Looks like a typo or two. Should read, Teaching is the most difficult and the most draining job. Both public and private sectors are most burdened by their managements. If you think the worker is to blame go back to Edward Deming’s teachings and come to recognize that we all suffer under mediocre and bloated management in what ever sector you may work.
ilsm,
I’m a retired O-5 with 20, just did my taxes, and I don’t make close to $50K gross in retirement pay. So at least get your facts straight.
Islam will change
Oh, I thought you stayed around for another FOGY or two……………….