Social Security: Full Glass vs Honest Pint
by Bruce Webb
In the past I have travelled or lived in most parts of the U.S. and in visiting the local tavern, bar or lounge am offered some choices in types and serving sizes of beer. Most places by answering ‘bottle’ to the question ‘bottle or draft’ you are locked into a measured 12″ serving, no more no less, which is why in most places outside Texas and maybe Colorado you can’t go too wrong ordering ‘a bottle of Bud’ (though you might get some dirty looks by asking for a cold glass). But if you chose ‘draft’ you can be in uncertain territory. Most places will give you some choice between small, large and pitcher where the small is somewhat smaller than the 12 ounces you get in a bottle and the large is modeled on the English pint. But as experienced travelers/drinkers understand all too well ‘pint’ in too many places has little relation to its standard definition of ’16 ounces’, in fact in a lot of places if you order a 12 ounce bottle and a cold ‘pint’ glass the resultant pour gets you suspiciously close to the rim. Which is why in my own State of Washington you never encounter ‘pints’ outside an Irish Bar or brew pub, instead we drink ‘pounders’. Now since a standard pint of water weighs exactly a pound the implication is that your ‘pounder’ actually contains sixteen ounces, but it is not like this is an actual violation of truth in advertising laws, most people know the score, you are lucky to get 14 ounces in a pounder and 42 ounces in a pitcher.
What does this have to do with Social Security? Well it offers a different way of examining what ‘solvency’ means in relation to SS: should we be worried how close the pour is to the rim? Or to the actual contents of the serving? And the answer to that question ends up having some surprising constraints on your policy options. Actual Social Security discussion under the fold.
Social Security solvency is mostly reckoned in terms of income to cost ratio and presented as either a percentage of projected payroll or GDP over the given projection period. But neither that projected income or projected cost is fixed, each instead is the product of a formula or formulae whose factors are determined by actual economic and demographic outcomes compared to the baseline assumptions. And it is in my view the failure among most commentators to fully grasp that variability that distorts the policy decision field.
Starting at the cost end we have this CBO study from 2003: The Future Growth of Social Security: It’s Not Just Society’s Aging. If we examine its figures and tables we can see that fully 45% of the projected growth in Social Security over the 75 year projection period is due to improvements in real benefits delivered compared to today, in terms of our metaphor the Trustees are promising us that if all things go right our ‘pint’ will actually have more content ounces going forward than today and cumulatively a lot more, at the end of the day we are drinking something closer to those beer steins you see at Munich’s Oktoberfest. Prost! But a look at the revenue end gives us some more sobering news, while Social Security left unchanged can deliver 100% of scheduled benefits right up to 2037, in our metaphor a pour right up to the rim, after that projected revenues only deliver a 78% pour. Hmm, downer. But how down should we actually be? This graph from Dean Baker at CEPR (though designed to illustrate a different point) is instructive: Social Security and the Washington Post: Who Is Going Down First?. What the graph shows is a fairly dramatic cutback in benefits at Trust Fund depletion, in numeric terms 22%. But note that the resulting beer stein STILL holds more ounces of beer than the one retirees get today, indeed about 20% more ounces. Moreover the pour starts improving in short order and by mid-century is as big as it ever was and then stein and pour continue to grow throughout the projection period. Now if we take the 2010 to 2037 line and extend it we see that our retiree/drinker of 2085 coulda/woulda been drinking from a full stein some 25% bigger than the one he ends up with. But still his daily beer ration remains more than double of what it is today.
Most policy discussions today hyperfocus on ways to get the stein and the pour into perfect alignment. Social Security ‘reformers’ tend to focus on ways to shrink the stein to meet the projected pour, preferably without a sudden transition that will upset the customers. Veteran beer drinkers will recognize this approach, typically bartenders wanting to skimp on beer serving sizes simply swap out their ‘pints’ with ones with gradually thicker sides and bottoms, the result looks the same and feels the same in your hand, but over time just doesn’t deliver the same zip. On the other hand supporters of traditional Social Security like Angry Bear’s Dale Coberly focus on ways to keep the pour right up to the rim of the growing stein, in Dale’s case by pointing out that the cost to the customer for that brimful of beer is just pennies per week. But I suggest what is important is not the alignment of brim and pour but the actual amount of the pour.
This post was inspired by an exchange between Dean and Henry Aaron of Brookings that I was privy to in which Aaron made the following observation in relation to the effect of higher real wages or an adjustment in the payroll cap adding to the total Social Security wage base:
A larger tax base has some effect on benefits. Since 1972, the system gains only very little, because a higher wage base raises taxes today and benefits later on; the system makes money on the time-value of money, but nothing else (in the pre-indexing days, the story is more complex).
And if you define a balanced ‘system’ with a perfect alignment between brim and pour this is quite true. But if you focus on actual pour size that ‘nothing else’ becomes something pretty significant. If we turn again to Dean’s figure and plug in higher real wages and a larger wage base oveall the effect is to drive the dark blue benefit line into a steeper rise. This does not necessarily delay the time of Trust Fund Depletion or the percentage of reset but it does or should change the resultant pour, from the perspective of the worker the same percentage cut from a higher baseline means more beer today and more beer than projected in the long term.
Some beer drinkers feel cheated if their ‘pint’ is not filled to the point that it overflows onto the serving tray as it is being brought to the table. Me I’ll just take that honest pint. Now looking forwards I would want as big a pour as I could get in my growing stein but my concern would be measuring from the bottom of the stein to the top of the pour and not the top of the pour to the rim of the stein, in the end I am a beer drinker wanting my fair serving whatever the variations in the glassware.
“you can’t go too wrong ordering ‘a bottle of Bud’ “
Nope ordering a Bud means its all wrong to begin with no matter what a Mr. Davies might say.
Not to get picky, well, I guess I am getting picky, but a pint of water does not weigh exactly one pound. It is a little bit more. A gallon of water weighs about 8.34 pounds, so a pint is about 1.04 pounds. The confusion comes from the difference between fluid ounces and weight ounces. It is true that a pint contains exactly 16 fluid ounces, but a fluid ounce is not the same as a weight ounce. A fluid ounce is a volume, not a weight.
Of course, all of this has nothing to do with Social Security, so…carry on.
And of course Brits serve beer in Imperial pints, which are larger than our pints, which are based on Queen Anne’s wine gallon. Which are not the same as a pint of strawberries, which are base on a Winchester bushel.
And then we refuse to go to the metric system. Also, for a real mess, check out what the Brits did for magnetic units of measure.
I think you need to be careful with analogy, however, Bruce. We may find ourselves defending “payroll taxes” against charges from the opposition that they are in fact sin taxes on employment. I don’t want to go there….
One it’s safe because you know they will have it. As opposed to ordering your favorite mini or micro drawing a look of disdain from the bartender and immediately labeling yourself as a stick up his butt yuppie.
Two it is amazing how many stick up their butt yuppies who wouldn’t get caught dead drinking Bud pick it in blind taste tests.
I used to be quite the beer snob having a collection of a couple hundred different foreign beer bottles by 1976, a year in which for most of America foreign beer meant Heinekin and maybe the stray Dos Equis or San Miguel. Around that same time I was a huge single malt Scotch snob. Luckily before I reached 30 I managed to pull the smug stick out of my ass.
Good luck, recovery is around the corner.
Jeebus Bruce.
Yes I get your point, but an Imperial pint is 20 fluid ounces.
Analogy fail I’m afraid.
What is heavier? A pound of feathers? Or a pound of gold?
There is a difference and I could tell you what and why but since for all practical purposes it makes no odds so why bother. Similarly with your example. The people who coined the phrase “A pints a pound the world around” didn’t have access to scales accurate to .04 units. You and Tim below have fallen into a common linguistic fallacy: because scientists have picked up common language terms and given them more precise and specialized meanings that the latter should rule. For example people delight in informing me that the use of ‘bug’ for any organism not scientifically classified in the actual order of insects is a solecism as if we had to pay no attention to the common usage of M.E. ‘bugge’. Personally I blame the Logical Positivists.
I took up beermaking as a hobby a few years ago. Got pretty good at with all the research available on the art, and even developed my own recipe on a variation of Imperial Stout which I christened “Butt Kicker Stout”… the name choice being obvious to any of my friends that tried it. Altho Guiness tastes like water already, all I can say is mine makes Guiness taste even more so.
But I don’t brew up batches that often because it is quite a lot of work, plus I end up with 5 gallons (US, as far as I can tell) and nothing better to do with it than drink it.
Tim there were no “Imperial gallons” prior to 1824. Instead it appears there were at least three such measures the ‘corn’ ‘wine’ and ‘ale’ gallons. Apparently the English chose a more scientifically convenient approximation of the ‘ale’ gallon to establish the ‘Imperial’ gallon while the U.S. stuck with something closer to the ‘wine’ gallon. Who knew? And since it has nothing to do with the thrust of my post, who cares? And for what it is worth the ‘wine’ gallon and the subsequent 16 ounce pint ARE English in origin I don’t see how my usage of ‘English’ pint is actually wrong. That the English no longer use that traditional fluid measure doesn’t wipe out centuries of usage.
Plus per Wiki much of the former Empire serve beer in smaller quantities than the actual Imperial pint, in most of Australia around 500ml of beer in a 570ml (I.e. Imp pt) glass and in S.Australia and N. Zealand even smaller and getting suspiciously close to American pints anyway.
Also. A point of information, please.
I thought Left Wing Yuppies drank chardonnay, or more recently pinot grigio, because grapes come from those hippie communes they have in California?
Hippies don’t grow wine grapes. Property suitable for viniculture is generally very expensive and the time lines to establish a new vineyard so long that mostly new wineries are either established by wealthy movie people or by professionals with access to at least some capital.
Yuppies traditionally drank white wines from decades old Napa Valley or what is now known as Silicon Valley, think Beaulieu or Mondavi, while Hippies drank cheap reds based on Italian peasant wines, think Gallo. I grew up in Marin County (across the Golden Gate Bridge from SF) at a time when it was perhaps the unparalleled nexus between Hippies and Yuppies (the lifestyle bridge being the hot tub) so I saw this close up.
But didn’t the hippies at least stomp grapes in their hot tubs?
I remember seeing that in an old movie, of sorts.
Or maybe those were yuppies. I guess I’m not sure about that anymore.
“A pints a pound the world around” is a reference to value?
Bruce–Hear, Hear! Well said! However, I recommend good old Stella Artois, consistently reliable for a good finish, for those Pilsener style beer fans who have no desire to get wonky with a favorite microbrew. In a bottle, and damn good. Oh, that reminds me, time to wonk.
Now, for something completely different, may I suggest that it is a VERY GOOD THING that SS benes will be higher than benefits now paid. Namely, the NCPSSM has calculated that retirees now are about 6 Trillion USD$ in the hole in assets and other income sources needed for them to retire. Here’s the link. http://www.ncpssm.org/entitledtoknow/ (third article down.)
So, I would argue that this projected Imperial Pint sized benefit is absolutely required in view of the absence both now and in the future of any reliable, secure source of retirement income for the majority of Americans. See also this link for one of NCPSSM’s sources for this information, the Economic Policy Institute. http://www.epi.org/ (EPI)
The NCPSSM is the National Committe to Preserve Our SS and Medicare founded by former Congressman James Roosevelt in 1982.
Thank you Nancy.
I don’t want to start a fight among friends, but I have never been able to understand some people’s fascination with the increased value of benefits relative to “real” values today. The difference between inflation and “improved standard of living” was demonstrated to be a political construct by Mike Boskin who Boskinized the CPI a few years back. And what would be the point of holding the future retirees to today’s standard of living. why not set the baseline at 1936 when most retirees did not have cars or refrigerators or indoor toilets. After all, why should people who have been paying for their own benefits… in increasing real value wages… be allowed to participate in the increased standard of living their work and good citizenship has helped to create. No, as we all know, Social Security is welfare and there is no reason to give those lazy welfare bums a reason to not work.
Hell, with a little creative outsourcing, we could ship the retirees to Zambia. The cost of living there is really quite low, i hear.
There was a reason to make Rosser’s point, but there is a great deal of danger in elevating it into a “plan.” In case you haven’t noticed, the plan is the same as “index Social Security to CPI… a cut in benefits. And all this to save 20 cents per week. It comes out of the same fallacy: “we” are paying for “them.” We ain’t, and they oughtta know better. What SS does is essentially take the workers savings… at current real value… and “save” it… in exactly the same way the bank saves it… by putting it to work while it waits for you to ask for it back… and returns it to the saver with an interest equivalent to inflation plus the average growth in wages. What the people we are talking about (i am trying to avoid names) want to do is welch on the “interest” part. Hell, today, retirees are having trouble living on the CPI adjustment after they retire. Some fun starting yoru retirement with dollars fixed at an inflation level that can be redefined to suit any future congress.
The “wage index” is easy and straightforward to calculate. Some “inflation index” is an invitation to political games. Stop trying to screw your granny… you little child when she becomes old. And shame on those of you who should know better.
To save yourselves twenty f’ing cents a week you are going to blithely tell future generations they can live like dogs… hell with the “real value” of the taxes they paid.
Have you forgottent that you are going to be one of those elderly? Or do you expect to be rich?
Or is it that you REALLY NEED that twenty cents per week?
Well said, Coberly. Today’s average retiree monthly social security benefit is roughly 50 percent higher than the average in 1970, after adjusting for inflation. By some logic, I guess elderly people reliant on social security checks today are swimming in cash and perhaps should receive an immediate and large benefit cut. That must be how the situation looks through beer glasses.
Indeed….but then the Imperial and American fluid ounces are different sizes too. 1.04 is the difference but I can never remember which way around it goes.
The reason it grates for the English though is that by law beer may only be served in multiples of a half pint (if draft that is). Been that way for decades (although there used to be another measure, third of a pint or “stoup” used for Brown Ale and Mild….and which is still the bottle size that Barley Wine comes in).
Of course it isn’t important and of course it doesn’t affect your point. It’s just one of those things which to an English eye immediately pops up as “wrong” even if it isn’t, in fact or in any manner important, “wrong”.
Just to march off in an entirely different direction: sometimes these differences between archaic measures do become important. There’s a long running internet story about USS Constitution, about how much they drank. They set off with x amount of spirits, plundered some more and came home dry. Then someone does the calculations and shoes that every man Jack of the crew was drinking three litres of spirits a day.
Sadly, the confusion comes from the abbreviations used: gal. means gallon, gl means gill (or four fluid ounces I think). Counting their stock as gallons will clearly give a different answer for daily consumption than counting their stock as gills. When gl is used as the measure then daily consumption is around two gills: high, but not outrageously so for the time. Royal Navy standard rum ration (for grog) was one gill at the time.
Yes, I know, nothing to do with what we’re talking about but I like the story to there it is.
I didn’t say there were things wrong with macro breweries, I said there are things wrong with Bud.
The US gallon is defined as 231 cubic inches which is based on the old British wine or Queen Anne’s gallon. It weighs about 8.34 pounds and is divided into 128 fluid ounces.
The imperial gallon is defined as 10 pounds of water specified conditions. It is divided into 160 fluid ounces.
Hence the differences.
Thank you for the information, Mr. Critter. NancyO
http://mathforum.org/library/drmath/sets/select/dm_tsp_oz.html
No its a mnemonic. 16 ounces = 1 lb and 16 ounces = 1 pint but as you can see people can pedantize anything.
pjr
sure, haven’t you heard about greedy geezers. i think someone forgot to tell our firends just how generous the average SS check is these days. About a thousand a month, and that’s average. You wanna know what the less than average are getting? No, you don’t.
I”d point out that the increase in the tax necessary to pay the same replacement rate over the longer expected lifespan is about 2% over about 80 years. That means no one now paying the payroll tax is likely to see an increase of more that 1% over his working lifetime.
And inflation is typically 2% per year or more. So over two lifetimes you might see your Social Security tax go up by as much as your cost of living goes up in a year.
But there is no reason to let retired people keep up with the standard of living of the rest of us… even if they were “the rest of us” until the day they retired.
Well since my plan for the next three hours is to go out and drink beer (and more than a gill) and watch football I can’t complain much at how this thread turned out.
But maybe next time I won’t use so colorful a metaphor. Because my point was that supporters of Social Security should be targeting the right outcome as measured as a basket of goods and not get bogged down arguing over essentially artificial formulae. I think the current schedule is pretty reasonable from an equity standpoint in that it serves to divide future productivity in rough alignment with those who contributed to that both past and then current (my current productivity being converted at least partially into tomorrow’s capital stock), but that doesn’t mean we need to fetishize the precise outcome. Yes the cost of adjusting revenues to meet the schedule is just pennies per week per worker. But then so is the cost of supplying malaria vaccine to millions of African children, or properly funding Head Start, at some point you have to prioritize.
Back a few years ago I used to pound my head on the keyboard when people were justifying the Iraq War by the fact that some schools were being painted. Sure we were blowing up cars full of kids for getting too close to a convoy but the survivors would return to a school with a half-ass coat of paint applied by a sub-sub-sub contractor of Kellogg-Brant-Root that charged a million bucks for the job and pocketed most of it. I mean you can buy a hell of a lot of sanitation, schooling, and yes democracy and human rights by putting $10 billion a month into Africa and South Asia. Why it is appropriate to put that kind of money into just Iraq and now Afghanistan is the question. Even if the results were steller which by all evidence they weren’t and aren’t. ‘Don’t you know Saddam was a monster?’ Well yes, just as I know there is a lot of shit wrong with this world not least right here in America. At some point you want the utility/$billion ratio to edge up.
As some of you know I belong to a Social Security policy group that not only seeks to protect Social Security but to enhance it in various ways and so put forth all kinds of ‘progressive’ ways to do that, as for example the Ball Plan which would enhance Social Security by devoting the estate tax to it. But as a society we need to balance out the needs of seniors as against everyone else. And agreeing to that doesn’t mean adopting Alan Simpson’s ‘greedy geezers’ approach, just an understanding that we are all in this together, kids, working (and non working) adults, and retirees and we need to make sure we don’t lose the equity by too close focus on the equation.
Sorry to belabor the point, Bruce, but it is not pedantizing. One of the ounces is weight and the other ounce is volume. They are two completely different things.
From your own link:
“Note that a pint is 16 ounces of volume, while a pound is 16 ounces of weight. The popular rhyme “A pint’s a pound, the world around” can help you remember this, but keep in mind that they’re not really equivalent.”
Bruce:
I will drink a liter of Budweiser from the CZ Republic any time where I am right now. I was at the Stuttgart Ocktoberfest this last Tuesday drinking another fresh beer.
Phooey with you all….I don’t drink beer. But don’t let Tim know that.
We can only wonder what “a pound sterling” may mean.
Bruce
sure we need to prioritize. but pennies a week is not going to save the world. especially when it’s the people’s own pennies that they are merely trying to save so they don’t have to eat last years cat food when they retire.
as for the “enhancd social security paid for with the estate tax” how about we let Social Security do what Social Security does best. and if you want to pry their cold dead fingers from thier estate tax and use it for a useful purpose… say, welfare for seniors whose Social Security benefits still leave them below the poverty line… more power to you. But just baggaging Social Securiyt with every do good scheme in the world is the shortest route i can think of to destroying social security for the real good it does for us.
you aren’t doing anyone any favors when you say… oh!… here’s ten cents that i can use for a really good cause, and by pulling on that ten cents you bring the Social Security house down on everyone’s heads. You can find another ten cents somewhere else. I’m sure you can.
and case it wasn’t clear… do the do good OUTSIDE the Social Security system. Just because that ambulance is going your way doesn’t mean they should stop and give you a ride.
would surprise me if that CZ Bud was bottled right here in USA. I bought a brewed in CZ beer just to honor the old country and it tasted like they had soaked burnt paper in water and added a little… not too much… fizz.
not that there are no good CZ beers… just that you can’t tell by the cover.
Bruce, I will toast you with a beer at my local pub tonight, for your serious thinking about a tough issue. I’m glad someone is doing more than playing defense on social security, although that remains a critical, persistant need. FWIW, I think SS works well–with minor tweaking as needed–for what it was intended to do but, unfortunately, it’s inadequate for an enhanced role as sole or primary support in retirement. Enhancing social security may indeed be the best or only feasible way to address the inadequacy of other/alternative retirement/pension provisions for the non-wealthy.
coberly
I agree we want to keep the linkage between SS funding and disbursements (in aggregate) very direct. We still have a very large unfunded General Fund, and estate taxes should go straight there. Maybe rich people will start complaining about government spending, with any luck.
At least 30 years ago all glasses in Germany had marks on the side that made them all measuring cups effectivly. So when you ordered a drink you knew you got what you ordered no more and no less. Of course this is the German way, ordnung must be maintained. But it does eliminate the short drink.
Cedric
let me point at a bit of confusion my friend my be suffering from.
if we cut the payroll tax from where it would need to be to keep the present replacement rate for a longer retirement, where is all this money to do good in the world going to come from? a special “do good in the world” tax? or just the regular tax will be applied to more of the good things it does? or will the workers who won’t be allowed to put their money into Social Security for it’s protected returns, naturally put it in the poor box at the local church?
or will they just put it in their pocket where 20 cents a week will fall behind the sofa cusions. or maybe they’ll just spend it for beer.
because god knows they won’t want to take any extra beer money out of the rest of their pay check which, amazingly, has increased in real value just exactly as much as that social security check. except more so.
maybe they get confused after too many beers.
I think even soda confuses us. I see people lined up at the Quicki Mart to pay $1 for 25 cents of soda.
But back to important issues, like beer.
Something must have gone terribly wrong with the CZ Republic. Pilsner Urquell used to be one of the highest rated beers in the world. In fact it was about the only beer Germans would drink that wasn’t a German beer. (they think English Ales are not beer. Only lager yeast counts.) CZ hops is also regarded among some of the finest hops in the world. I used some in a homebrew batch as couple years ago and it seemed fine to me.
I just figured out what the problem is here. It’s a storage problem. What happened is the bottle got what is termed “skunked”. If a beer bottle is exposed to sunlight or even indoor lighting for too long, it gets a cardboard taste. A brown bottle protects the most against this, green or clear bottles, not so much. So go with a brown bottle, not the label.
Mystery solved.
Cedric
thanks. considering where i bought it, storage may indeed have been the problem.
Parky’s Tavern in Tacoma serves both Pints and Pounders, BOTH arrive in a frosty 16 ounce glass, and it’s full to the brim with Beer not foam. A pint is half a quart 1 eighth of a gallon, and that’s 2 cups or 16 ounces. You don’t need an Irish Pub to get a pint