Ezra Klein’s straw man argument. Rep Shuler’s 500 jobs and only 3 apply. Coburn on Washington Journal
by Daniel Becker
updated: Tom Coburn, not John.
I was not sure how to title this but, today on Washington Journal, Tom Coburn was on to talk about the economy and unemployment.
At 2 minutes into the interview, Greta Brawner presents Ezra Klein’s take from this article:
“And we’re just going to leave them without incomes and without job opportunities and without money to spend in their wrecked local economies — thus making it harder for those economies to generate new jobs? That’s the economic theory this country is going to embrace amid terrible joblessness?”
Mr Coburns setup to his full response response: Well, all that is, is a straw man argument.
Interesting perspective as to what a straw man argument is. Feel free to analyze that. However, I’m writing about what happened next. At 3:09 minutes Coburn states that he lives with congressman Heath Shuler. Just yesterday Mr. Shuler told him that he had a job fair. Mr. Shuler worked hard to set up this jobs fair. Over 500 jobs, every major employer represented.
“3 people showed up. 3 people showed up for 500 jobs in an area of unemployment above 10 %.”
According to Mr. Coburn, Mr. Shuler’s explanation for the lack of attendance:
“they are not going to do it until the benefits lessen. And that may not be an exact interpretation of what his words were but… “
What did not happen next is the issue because it is the dictionary example as to why this nation can not actually solve anything such that the risk of living is reduced for all.
There was no statement by Greta Brawner questioning such a result regarding the job fair. There was no statement by Greta Brawner suggesting the Cspan research department would check such a story for facts. Maybe call Rep Shuler? I mean, 500 jobs, 10% plus unemployment and only THREE people showed up? Coburn tells a tale as huge as any 4 year old trying to talk their way into what they want and appears to admit he telling a really big one yet there is no response?
Greta Brawner lets him go on for another minute before saying a word: “There’s an editorial in the Washington Post this morning…” Granted she is bringing up an editorial that is asking about extending the tax cuts for the rich while denying unemployment extensions based on the “pay for” it line, but, the really big talking point, the really big insulting talking point, the really big insulting, and out right lie is that people are not motivated to go to work do to the availability of unemployment.
Hey Congressman Heath Shuler, care to respond? After all, it’s your cred that is now invoked. Maybe there are some readers from his district? Contact him here.
DivOneLB–I wondered when this poorly attended event was held. So, I googled a bit and found this little news item from a paper/website in and about his district.
http://www.thecherokeescout.com/articles/2010/07/09/breaking_news/doc4c37758d1d697191977682.txt
The Google had a reference to DOLB’s item here on AB. But, google it yourself Heath Shuler+job fair. You will see that no completed job fair shows up. Instead, the link above announces a job fair scheduled on Aug. 14th. Barring some misunderstanding, it would seem that either Coburn misdisremembered Shuler’s remarks to him or Shuler was confused about the date of such fairs and just winged it. In any event, Shuler’s announced his desire to have such job fairs earlier in the year and this is the first mention I can find of a scheduled event. FYI. Nancy O.
Yup, I did a lot of googling for the stated job fair before writing this up. Nothing. I did find one BMW job fair. They were lining up at 5:00 AM. People waited up to 6 hours. It was held on 7/7 and is in district 3: Greenville, NC. Not Shuler’s area.
Either way, the 2 statements are out there and either Coburn or Shuler is lying. Time for the free press to do it’s job.
Well, dear DOLB, I expect we better not hold our breath. 😉 NO
I get e-mails for open contract jobs in Iraq and afghanistan.
6 years ago I got one for $175K/year. Today I got one for $84K plus $15K bonus in Afghanistan.
I also have seen a few stateside jobs from headhunters for a little more than half my going hourly rate.
I am busy enough and those expected relocation which I do some “distance” work.
The rates are going down and the skills are rare.
The 3 entrants for 500 openings were probably for jobs running fuel contracts in Manas Kirgizistan at 5000 a month.
A little confusion between Tom Coburn and John Conryn (heads the RSCC). Both ML assholes but in the interest of accuracy this is the former.
Thanks Bruce. My eyes, brain and fingers just didn’t get together.
well, you don’t want to spend too much time listening to the non partisan experts and the reporters and columnists who cover them.
because they say whatever pops into their damn heads. it doesn’t need to make sense, because they have learned the people can’t tell sense from nonsense. all you need to do is sound sure. and a latin phrase from a logic book is enormously impressive, even if it doesn’t actually mean anything in the context.
damn. there i go again
you mean “straw man” is not latin? who’d have guessed it.
I wrote a bio on Ol’ Heath for OpenLeft back in the day. He is quite simply yet another low grade intellect born on third who actually believes he hit a triple. Yeah, yeah I know he play football; is that a recommendation.
You are right on point on you analysis of the yatterers of the MSM. I can no longer listen to c-span, NPR even the BBC as the interlocutors never question even the most obvious lies spewed by the likes of ‘Blue Dogs’ and Republicans. Folks I know are turning this crap off….
Coberly–Can’t find a latin phrase to translate it on teh google. But, the process here is misrepresentation when the basis for the argument against the “straw man” is a lie or merely false or inaccurate allegations. I think. By the time I read all the nifty fallacy stuff, my eyes crossed and suspect it is, as you said, just English. 😎 Nancy Ortiz
Golly Mr Money Man,
You mean we are really screwed unless we sell granma to the cat food factory?
Numbers don’t lie.
[off camera. in fact way out west: Wait, wait, I thought cat food commission meant granny would be EATING cat food, you know, a balanced solution, but this semmssmffbllmph….!!?#!]
cue the music.
Jobs fairs are bogus marketing gimmicks. Talk about a waste of money.
It will come as no surprise to rational people, the holding company of Government Motors fabricated reports claiming one of its competitors was negligent with its quality control. An uncountable number of vulnerable people have been tricked into buying less safe Government Motor vehicles
We need a Vehicle Buyer’s Protection Agency in Washington so we can get more fabricated reports from the holding company of Government Motors.
http://reason.com/blog/2010/07/13/big-runaway-toyota-surprise-dr
– Proud Corolla owner
There is a shortage of latin because of all the Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc arguments that go on around here.
Jay
you certainly illustrate one of the problems with government ownership of a private business.
but i make it a point never to talk to someone who bills himself as “reason.”
Just wait until Government Holdings Corp. is running a private health insurance company.
Jay,
Talk about banks, or TARP or the war machine; leave government motors alone they are duffers, small potatoes in pillaging the US. Government motors is no where near the problem that the militarist industrial complex plundering poses.
In the hot off the press 2011 DoD budget the militarists’ dividend paying machine are going to get:
$215.3B to develop and acquire low quality shining engines of modern war used on cavemen.
$317.3B to operate, maintain and run the war machine to defeat terror. These billions include funding for overseas contingency opersations which go by the euphemism “supplemental” spending so that the war budget don’t look as ridiculous as it is.
What did Government Motors get from the taxpayers? And the DoD spending is not loans or even equity shares in the war machines’ companies which are publicly held socialized industries.
DoD spending is roughly equal to social security outlays the surplus of SS receipts go to paying for the war machine.
And the militarists’ waste of the cash is why the US productivity is in decline, and cannot pay back the cash SS loaned to the US government.
Jay, Honey–We know what Post Hoc…means. We know a lot of stuff. A lot. Good night. NO
In the last presidential election I supported the only candidate that would have cut defense spending. Any rational person, could have clearly seen that you and your ilk supported the candidate who was clearly going to keep the Iraq war going and Gitmo open.
“And the militarists’ waste of the cash is why the US productivity is in decline,”
There is a green unicorn in your closet. You should go check it out.
http://www.bls.gov/lpc/#data
The unstated strawman answer to ll economic issues,in latin:
Plebii, delendum est!
Did Pat Paulson run from the grave?
Define green unicorn.
Explain the data in the link.
And explain what is productive about a Navy (uniformed, civil service and serivle contractor) acquisition person with a couple of engineering degrees and aprt of an MBA working on the F-35 lightning (also see circular logic on Lightning) which is years behind schedule 76% over projected unit price and is not going to do anything but punch holes in the air and make smoky noise.
Green unicorn indeed, answer what is interesting in the link, in some manner that a sober person not drugged on tax cuts and ideologically bound to circular logic can be convinced to understand.
Jay,
Just curious, but which candidate was that? McCaine, Obama, and Hillary didn’t run on it, so what fringe candidate are you talking about?
And I predicted way before the election that any winner would not cut the military, do anything but consolidate the victory in Iraq, and continue in Afghanistan. Did you really think anything was going to change after the Dems Congress actions after the 2006 election…really?
ilsm,
Small correction, “…and make LOUD smokeless noise.” 🙂
Islam will change
Ilsm–Yeah, what you said. Green unicorns in closets! Who knew! Nancy O
Buff
since you obviously see that there is no difference between repubs and dems, why is it you (at other times) get so worked up about the difference?
DOneLB–http://crooksandliars.com/node/38383 Looks like the Crooks and Liars blog picked up on the same item you did, but didn’t publish until today. They didn’t find a unattended job fair at the time Coburn said Heath told him about. But, did find the one we found scheduled for August 14th. FYI. Nancy Ortiz
coberly,
On the issue of the WoT the only difference between the two parties was their words. Their actions were practically pre-determined. Dem Congress was never going to oppose Bush on the war. For a variety of reasons I listed back then. Obama/Hillary, from their owns words were not going to change from Bush’s course much either. Some new faces, slight change in emphasis here and there. Maybe some new ideas to try to improve our performance, but no cut and run. No large change.
I’m much more worried about the domestic front, and though the Reps have not been anything to write home about it, the Dems constant attempts to institutionalize limits on my freedoms and increase the federal government is much more serious a threat than FISA ever was.
And, of course, the fact that Dem Presidents have gotten us in 4 of the last 5 big wars (which assumes WoT is big…) costing us far more dead Americans than all the reps combined multiplied by 100, is reason enough to vote R. I assume you put human lives over a half percent GDP growth, don’t you? Or were the Dems just “unlucky”. I’m surprised ilsm isn’t a rapid right winger since he opposes the military-industrial complex so much. The Reps may support it , but the Dems actually USE it to the detriment of millions. But alas he went to the fringe Buchanonite isolationist way…
Tongue not so firmly in cheek…
Islam will change
coberly,
About the war issue. The GITMO issue is a perfect example. Obama signed that executive order before they had the mall cleaned up from the inaugeration. Yet Gitmo is still open today. Is there any doubt, like I said way back then, that Bush would have closed the place if he could have figured out a way? The Dems beat him senseless during the last two years of his presidency (while continuing to fund its operations) over it. It was an issue during the election. There was no upside to keeping it running. But there are huge downside risks to closing it. All risk, no gain. And its obvious that Obama has the same problem. High downside risk if you close it (no matter how you do it, shot them all to letting them all have US citizenship and release them in NYC and everything in between), with very little upside benefit. Bush released as many as he could and then punted the issue to the next guy/gal. Well that’s Obama, and Obama and his staff aren’t stupid and are stuck in the same corner.
Thus new names, small cosmetic changes, but gitmo is still running…
Islam will change
Thanks Nancy. I see I even got a hat tip from C & L. Thank you C & L.
Buff
all fine. what you overlook is that the dem propaganda re the war that got them elected (not that the economy had anything to do with it) is matched by the republican propaganda about ffffeedoom that has you by your tenders.
Example #1:
Employee A gets layed off due the election and the collapse of the economy. In an attempt to get ahead of the tidal wave the Company decides to tighten spending, lay off employees, and secure future work thru customer incentives. The corporation publically predicted to it’s employees that the economy would be very difficult moving forward, and all employees should expect buisness to slow.
Employee A begins to recieve unemployment payments. Almost six months later, Employee A wants to come back, and has committed to the corporation to take the next available spot, if one opens up, because Employee A claims there is no employment for him to find anywhere.
A year after that the Corporation states, “Our goal is to chase the stimulus money, and out compete our competitors for our share of the pie.” Several projects are secured by a long time loyal customer of the Corporation, and the Corporation decides to bring back Employee A, due to company knowledge and experience.
Employee A’s response, “Well I gave up looking for work awhile back, and me and my wife have gotten used to me staying home watching the kids. My unemployment checks have been getting us by just fine, because we are saving so much on Child Care and Gas, and I sold the truck the company made me buy. Unless the company can pay me much more than I was making before, this situation works better for me and my family.”
Company response, “No, we can’t pay you more money than you were making a year ago, but we will help you buy a new truck for work.”
Employee A’s response, “Unless I’m going to end making alot more money, there is no incentive for me to take the job back.”
My conclusion: There is an element of behavioral economics involved in the unemployment benefits debate.
Coberly,
Did the Health Care Bill make us more free or less?….Case Closed…….You lose!
jimi
have you always been a premature ejaculator?
i have told you i don’t care much for the health care bill. the forced purchase of private insurance is one of my big complaints. so you may be arguing with someone who agrees with you.
but i’ll repeat this in case you didn’t see it last time:
if there is a deadly epidemic which, without a vaccine is 100% fatal and 100% contagious, and there is a vaccine that is 80% effective, will you support a government mandate that requires everyone to take the vaccine?
note that if you take it your chances of dying are still one in five. but if everyone takes it your chances of dying are one in 25. (statistics students: i know i have oversimplified. trying to make a point here.)
the point is that the governmetn… that’s you and me, neighbor…always have to “balance” your freedom with my rights. in a democracy we have half a chance of doing that more or less honestly, but not to everyone’s satisfaction every time.
you could make a case on any given issue that the balance is not right. when you make the claim that your fffeeedom always trumps the national good you are just being an idiot.
Jimi
hmmm. interesting dream. now let us see what it means… to you.
as a matter of fact i was thinking about when i worked for the food stamp people during the Reagan recession. A lot of middle class people showed up who knew how to game the system. I can imagine those people going home and telling themselves that”everyone does it” so food stamps are really a rip off of the taxpayer. because of course there are no real poor people. only people too lazy to find work.
so i imagine that the Senators know people who live off their unemployment checks, so they know that’s what everyone does. yessir. stop coddling the lazy nig…er lazy people. and they will all find jobs soon enough. yep. take that job fair i had next august where no one showed up a month from now. yes, just goes to show you. them folks is too fat and lazy to go find a job that was just waiting there for them a month from now. kind of like every recession. folks just get lazy and won’t get those jobs that are waiting for them when the recession ends.
Coberly,
The Soiux migration patterns were based on the migration of Buffalo. Now that Buffalo can be bought at Walmart with Food Stamps…they migrate to Walmart on a weekly basis.
The point is, when we condition people to be in the lowest common denominator or to take the path of least resistance, that is exactly the end result of thier lives.
Of course, this recession is harsh, and their is no clear solution to appease the situation, but as a country we need to ask ourselves some really tough questions, and be very carefull that our intentions match our results.
Coberly,
Well…..we are just going to have to agree to disagree. You claim that your not a fan of the Health Care Bill, but your selling the same idea as the “National Good.”
Only the results will dictate what ends up being in the “National Good,” and I stand by my poition that the Health Care Bill will result in it acting against the “National Good.”
Jimi–I am shaking my head. People can starve or end up homeless because their UI payments stop. And deciding to ignore those facts because we need to cut spending is a “tough decision” that we’re going to have to make. Damn, I had no idea that the National Debt justifies letting people suffer needlessly or perhaps even die. Thanks for the thoughtful guidance, she said, snarking severely. NO
Nancy,
Your missing the point! The point is that the focus has been how to take care of people after they lose their job, instead of focusing on finding them a job so that they can take care of themselves.
Sure…we need to help these people thru this downturn, but when is enough-enough?, and when are people like you going to catch on that their is an agenda behind this strategy? If we haven’t seen any results from stimulus, and in fact things got much worse, why are you not asking questions?
It couldn’t be because Dear Leader can do no wrong is it? As if I’m supposed to belive that there is no solution except keep giving un-employment benefits.
jimi
back in the old days they had a word for people like you.
evil.
now you don’t think you are evil. in fact you think you are worried about the virtue of the poor. but that is always the lie the devil tells.
i would quite agree that we need a jobs plan, but while we are waiting for that we need to provide a bit of a safety net for the people who did not crash the banking system.
If you think unemployment insurance is expensive wait till you see the bills for the new prisons we’re going to need (soon probably).
jimi
apparently we are going to have to agree that you don’t have an answer for the “forced” vaccinatioin dilemma.
amateur
the hell of it is unemployment insurance could be sold as just that: “insurance.” workers would have to be paid better in order to be able to afford it. but what we have in this country is a mix of “socialism” and “corporate wage control.” so the people can’t afford to live on their wages and have to get governmetn bailouts so the ones who don’t need the bailout can bitch about taxes.
good system. gives the politicians something to talk about.
I will not be forced to answer a Hypothetical!
But for fun…..if I could predict how I would react to that Hypothetical, my decision would be based on whether or not you would be getting that vaccine. If I knew that you could be prevented from getting it, even if it meant I would not get it either, my response would be to reject any government intervention and take my chances with running natures course……Satisfied?
Jimi–I worked for the federal government long enough to know that Presidents are best viewed with reservations amounting to distrust. Your argument would be irritating if you had any reason to make it. So, you know, mu. NO
Jimi–So, then they call E#A1 who takes the job no questions asked. And, your point is? NO
Amaterur– Regarding prisons, I wish that weren’t true. For many years, the violent crime rate has been falling. Of course, the white collar crime rate has been rising at an alarming rate. Why, even so estimable a fellow as Stockman (OMB, Reagan Administration) has recently spent time in prison for an unsuccessful stock fraud he perpetrated on some unsuspecting investors. And, if you think back, it was the Reagan/Bush I Admins that came up with with attacks on Dems as weak on crime. While Bush, spared McCain and his wife it was only because they were really sorry about the Keating affair. Then we built a bunch of prisons and filled them up and no more problem.
Well, maybe it is time for a new crime spree. A growing population of desperate unemployed young people have to be good for something. We can put them to work in prison industries and, who knows, maybe bring back the textile industry. Cheap labor may do the trick to boost exports. And, we can privatize the prison system. Right? NO
Nancy,
Once agian you missed the point…again?
O.K. Fine…..I’ll try to explain it! Once people are un-employed they adjust their lives accordingly. The company stopped the bleeding, regrouped, and when oppurtunity arose they were then ready to expand. Employee A was an automatic shoe-in for the new position, but chose not to take it, because his un-employment benefits were just good enough to be comfortable with the new adjustment (that’s by design). If Employee A was confident his fun-employment benefits were going to end soon, he would have jumped at the chance to go back to work, but he was gambling the Democrats were going to be able to hold off the Republican talking points.
The point is, an understanding of Human Behavior plays a role in the unemployment benefit legislative decisions.
And yes….the company ended up in a win-loss situation because they filled the position quickly, and could pay bottom dollar for it, but in the end it actually costs them more of an investment. They would have been better off paying Employee A what he wanted, because in the long run it would have been cheaper, because Employee A already knew what he had to do to produce for the company. The investment in an unexperienced employee is not only money, but time, and time is money.
Nancy,
Of course I have reason to make it…we have people like you out there that believe that being compassionate is important…it is only important to you…get it?
You refuse to address the real issue and are only concerned with what makes you feel better, and that is dangerous to the rest of us!
that’s why your neighbors would tie you down and give it to you anyway. they don’t want to die because they catch it from you.
jimi “i will not be forced to answer a hypothetical” offers one of his own.
but jimi
the fact is you don’t understand human behavior. you have a theory which does not match what people actually do.
people are more complicated than that. pigeons are more complicated than that and people are more complicated than pigeons, though i remember when Harvard PhD’s couldn’t understand that.
Moreover, unemployment is more complicated than that. You don’t get a lot of money for an unlimited time. not many people are going to wait until their unemployment runs out before they go looking for another job. most people would actually rather work than collect unemployment.
you see, jimi, something keeps you in a cartoon universe, unable to see what is going on around you. just like those Harvard PhD’s.
And there you have it – an attack on the compassionate empathy that has been the hallmark of civilization since we arose from blood based tribes of hunter gatherers.
(fuller exposition of this thesis here: http://comment.rsablogs.org.uk/2010/05/06/rsa-animate-empathic-civilisation/ )
Now that’s conservative!
Coberly,
There was no theory proposed…The example above is a real world example, in which I was the representative for the company that attempted to negotiate with Employee A.
AS,
Unlimited Un-Employement Beneifits is not compassionate, in fact, it is the exact opposite of compassonate……Sheeez!
Try to keep Up…eh?
jimi
actually you and the company were operating under a theory, and your example may be perfectly true for the one case, and for other cases like it. but it is not generally the case for most people.
the idea that a company lets you act as their representative terrifies me.
jimi
snark coming from you is badly out of place. it is you who aren’t keeping up. i don’t think anyone is arguing for unlimited benefits.
Shuler, according to his web site, has held only small business fairs and some sort of job training session with employers and employees in Franklin NC, where I live. I heard nothing about this event. Shuler is one big Rethuglican who lives in the C-Street House, which is being investigated as to its’ tax-exempt status it enjoys as a religious entity. D.C. is also looking into why they give this place hugh property tax breaks when religion is definitely not the main focus of this group, other than its’ members who live there thinking they are the “chosen ones”.