More Partsanization Of The Environment
More Partsanization Of The Environment
The Environmental Protection Agency was founded during the presidency of Republican Richard Nixon, if perhaps with some lack of enthusiasm. The first national cap and trade (or “tradable emissions permits”) system, for SO2, was instituted during the presidency of Republican George H.W. Bush. In 2008, Republican John McCain had an alternative plan to that proposed by Democrat Barack Obama for dealing with global warming, not all that different, mostly perhaps in scale. Likewise even in 2012, while he was less specific, Republican Mitt Romney still at least gave lip service to doing something about this matter.
While he is not outright denying that global warming is happening as the more extreme members of his party argue, incoming Republican Governor of Virginia, Glenn Youngkin, supposedly a moderate Republican, has nevertheless announced his intention to remove Virginia from its participation in the not widely publicized Regional Greenhouse Gas Initiative (RGGI) of which Virginia has been the southernmost participating states, the others including most of those to its northeast. This is indeed a cap and trade system for greenhouse gases. This RGGI is probably more open to criticism by those who argue that it has been too weak, too ineffective in substantially reducing greenhouse gas emissions in the states participating in it. But at least it is pushing in the right direction and provides an institutional foundation for doing more.
So it really sticks out that incoming Governor Youngkin wants out of it. Why? Oooh, he will save Virginia taxpayers money, actually people who pay for electricity. The estimate he provided yesterday (as reported in today’s Washington Post metro section) is about $52.44 per average customer per year in utility bills, with him complaining that the RGGI is not really doing anything. He promises an alternative, but gives no hint of what that might be. As it is, this strictly short term possible monetary gain is likely to be offset, possibly more than fully offset, by other monetary costs that will probably increase, such as higher flood insurance for people living in the state, quite aside from the broader issue of global warming.
Anyway, this seems to be a further degradation of the Republican Party. Here we have a supposedly moderate Republican, who clearly feels he must indulge the irresponsibility of the Trumpist/extremist wing of his party, in going against the long-running more responsible past of members of his party with respect to environmental policy. It may be that Youngkin will not be able to do this by executive order, or may be delayed in doing so. But that he wants to and will probably try to is simply sad in my view.
Barkley Rosser
on one hand, the republican politicians who will put the Nation, democracy ahead of themselves, the republican party
Ken
??
i wonder what they will say when the people wake up and realize the government has been stoen from them and show up with torches and pitchforks.
Barkley, re the RGGI: “at least it is pushing in the right direction and provides an institutional foundation for doing more.”
can you give us an example of how it has reduced emissions? ie, which major greenhouse gas emitters have closed their doors under its auspices?
No, rjs, I cannot name a single facility. But, frankly, that is a stupid question, no offense intended. I can tell you that since it started in 2009, GHG emissions across the 11 state region have declined 35%, which is pretty impressive. If that has been accomplished without closing any doors anywhere, all the better. Why are you so keen on throwing people out of work for the environment?
As a matter of fact, it was exactly this tradeoff that led to the first development of cap and trade, which happened in the mid-1970s in the state of Wisconsin on the Fox River Valley, home to a lot of BOD-generating lumber mills. The plan allowed them to trade rights with municipal sewage treatment plants to achieve aggregate BOD emission reductions with minimum job losses. I was involved in setting that program up through the Wis Department of Natural Resources and am proud of my role in that.
i’m not “keen on throwing people out of work for the environment”, Barkley, my questions are hypothetical because i see that the measures being taken are virtually meaningless in terms of having an impact on the environment…..in fact, i believe that exceeding the atmospheric levels of greenhouse gasses leading to a tipping point where they’ll be off and running on their own is inevitable, and that there’s no longer anything we can do about it, such that all of our discussions about climate are hypothetical now…you suggest a 35% reduction in northeast emissions over a dozen years is “pretty impressive”; i’m here to tell you it’s not enough,,,even with that 35% reduction, per capita US emission are still 2 1/2 times those of China this year; in fact, except for a few less densely populated high emission countries like Saudi Arabia, Americans still are responsible for more emissions than anywhere else on earth…
anyhow, i don’t watch emission reductions; i watch CO2 levels in the atmosphere; and find that in most years they’re still showing record year over year increases…even with Covid, the YoY increases in Co2 over the past year have been among the top 5…even if we could stop today, those CO2 molecules will be with us and warming us for another thousand years…
i address the Democrat proposals rather than criticize Republicans because frankly the worthless virtue signaling from the Democrats makes me sick to my stomach…i would rather see an honest approach, acknowledging that it’s politically impossible to do anything about the climate, and drop it from the national dialog altogether…just stick our heads in the sand and keep the coal miners employed; that’s what you and Manchin want, isn’t it?
rjs
don’t be in quite so much of a hurry to say it’s too late.
that just tells most people that it’s time to party like it was the end of the world. “get it while you can!”
there is a lot we can still do to limit the destruction. and much we can do to repair the damage in less than geological time.
of course that would require homo sapiens to show more wisdom than it has in the last million years.
Rosser said
” I can tell you that since it started in 2009, GHG emissions across the 11 state region have declined 35%, which is pretty impressive. If that has been accomplished without closing any doors anywhere, all the better.”
Could you provide us with a reference that would explain what this means and how it is measured?
Barkley
Re “keen on throwing people out of work for the environment”:
as they say, “when you find yourself in a hole, stop digging.” we’d be a lot better off if
a lot of people laid down on their shovels.
if you found a factory in America making arms for the enemy, you would, probably, throw those people out of work.
“capitalism” thows a lot of people out of work.and assures us a little creative destruction is good for the species. maybe we need a little creative thinking about moving “the economy” to less destructive ways of managing changes necessry to save all of our lives.
rjs,
This is past people following this, but your reply to me is just incredibly stupid, plus fool of weird GOP propaganda, such as “Democrat proposals” involving “virtue signaling,” as opposed to the GOP non-proposals that are “vice signaling”?
CO2 comes out of the atmosphere very slowly, so watching it will prove nothing to you. It will not go down in your lifetime no matter what. However, it is emissions that increase it, so emissions are what one should watch, your utterly idiotic remarks to the contrary.
When did you let your brain fall out of your head like that? Too much Fox News and Trump? Gag. Disgusting.
i don’t know how to respond to name calling and insults, Barkley; i haven’t had any exposure to little kids in years…i would need to know something about you before i even start; for instance, are you overweight, such that calling you a “fat pig” would be apropos? give me a few hints as to what offends you, so that the next time i want to comment on something you’ve written, i can start preparing some appropriate insults to counter yours, before you respond….
for now, i want to clarify the importance of atmospheric CO2 measurements…that reading, now published daily on several sites, tells us exactly how we’re doing, or not doing, on controlling the amount of that one greenhouse gas in the atmosphere, Exxon’s promises of net zero emissions notwithstanding…. on December 5th, atmospheric CO2 amounted to 415.86 parts per million; 10 years earlier, it was at 391.72 parts per million, so we’ve been averaging an additional 2.4 parts per million each year over the past decade…up until Covid, there was no sign of slowing down; even with Covid, we’ve still added more than 2 parts per million a year..
a graph of that CO2 measurement over time is known as the Keeling curve, after the scientist who developed it…what you’d notice in looking at a graph of the Keeling curve, which you can find with a quick google search, is that it is bending upward, ie, more CO2 is being added to the atmosphere each year than the year before it, claims of emission reductions notwithstanding…life on earth as we know it evolved with CO2 levels generally between 280 and 300 parts per million, ice core measurements show wide fluctuations between 180 and 300 parts per million over the past 800,000 years…so the atmosphere is way out of whack from what all prior life has known…also remember that for every CO2 molecule that is formed, it takes an oxygen molecule out of the atmosphere…that’s what happens when we burn fossil fuels…
Rosser
I never heard GOP propaganda mention “virtue signaling.” But I have heard enough propaganda to know that much of it is based on some perception of the “reality” of what people believe. We don’t do ourselves any favors by ignoring that basis.
Some friends pointed out my bad manners to me when I did not notice them myself. Long enough ago that I have had time to try to mend them. Goes slower that I would like, but worth the effort.
As for CO2 coming out of the atmosphere slowly, are you sure of that? or is it the small difference in rate of accumulation vs rate of “coming out” that makes the coming out process look slow. I don’t know, but I’d bet, literally, that slowing emmission of CO2 by burning fossil fuels while encouraging sequestration by growing green things would mitigate the damage…at least worth a try.
but the effects of warming already visible make me afraid we may be too late. no reason not to try.
meanwhile I think I know exactly what rjs means by virtue signaling.
speaking of utterly idiotic: watching emissions might be hard to do…too many sources, not well accounted for. meanwhile watching accumulation provides a pretty good way to estimate the emissions without watching each individual smokestack. and that’s what counts.
“no matter what” suggests we already know everything about “what matters.” might be true for some of us, but even I manage to learn something new from time to time.
rjs,
You are completely off your rocker. I did not call YOU any names at all. Are you able to read? I said your remarks were “stupid,” and that they most indubitably are. I did not say you are “stupid,” much less call you anything like a fat pig. I did ask whether you had let your brain fall out of your head, which is also not calling you a name, although given your apparent inability to read suggests that my question remains highly relevant.
To both you and coberly, OK, sorry guys, I really do know this stuff. I have been involved in modeling global climate off and on for nearly half a century. I learned what chaos theory is before it was called that by talking to climatologists back then. I happen to personally know several of the world’s most prominent “global climate skeptics” whose views are highly complicated and nuanced. I actually do know a lot about this stuff and have for a very long time, so suggestions of what I should look at and statements about the rate CO2 comes out of the atmosphere are really pretty useless.
And, no, while coberly thinks I should show manners, I am not going to apologize to rjs, who nas now falsely accused me of calling him names. I fully stand by the content of my characterization of what he said. Maybe he is a genius, but what he wrote here was abysmally stupid.
Barkley, you sound like you’re bragging that you were the one who designed and built the plane that crashed, killing everyone on board…ie, if you have been as on the cutting edge of climate science for as long as you say you’ve been, and have been as influential in the field over that time as you claim to have been, then you bear some responsibly for the unmitigated disaster that it has become…
Barkley
I wasn’t suggesting you apologize, but I was going to suggest to rjs that he ignore the insults. I know that’s hard to do, but as a person who lost all his friends by saying “that’s stupid” about something they said, and they thought i was calling THEM stupid, I find I don’t have much sympathy for your making the same distinction. Your attack was too florid and too persistent for me to buy that you were only reacting to what he said and did not mean it as a personal insult to him.
I have twice been the recipient of your insults. The first time surprised me; the second time it didn’t affect me…partly because I suspected I had been baiting you.
I don’t know if you have any power over yourself…either to manage normal if insincere good manners, or to genuinely learn to control your anger and the thoughts that lead to it.
Other than that, if you really “know this stuff” it would be better to try to sound like you do than to simply assert it and expect us to be impressed.
Here endeth the lesson for today.
Coberly
You beat me to saying something. Indirect comments can be as bad as directed. We learn by discussion and reading.
Sorry, guys, no apologies from me. This has been one dumb remark after another. When things said become this idiotic, stated with pomposity and personal insults, which were made against me, although I have not gone whining about needing some apology. I am now sufficiently disgusted, that I am inclined to use foul language, but will desist.
So, just to respond to the claim that somehow I helped build a plane that “crashed killing all on board,” this is just unbelievably ignorant and stupid, rjs. Cap and trade systems have successfully gotten various kinds of pollution under control in many places, including regarding BOD emissions on the Fox River, the plan I helped develop. A “plane crashing and burning”? No. It was and remains a success.
Here is another one: SO2 emissions. This was the first national emissions trading system anywhere, and it worked. SO2 emissions are substantially down since their introduction in 1990, although that plan has had problems. Again, not remotely a plane crashing. More just worthless drivel out of you, rjs. Just what should you be called with this kind of bilge coming out of hour pen?
Where we have the big problem is climate change. But the US has not had a national plan of any sort on that, which has been a big problem. We have this cap and trade plan that is being implemented for 11 states in the northeastern part of the US, the RGGI. It has led to 35% reduction in CO2 emissions, which is far better than what is going on in the rest of the US. This is exactly what we need, but is not happening in the rest of the US. My post complained about the incoming GOP governor of VA pulling out of that without any plan to do anything to replace it. Effectively you are supporting this awful move with your utterly and totally idiotic remarks. Your claim that looking at emissions is not what you should do is just plain wrong and stupid and ignorant beyond belief. These are hard facts.
I am sorry, but while you got all self righteous, your comments are not only stupid, they are immoral and disgusting. Am i supposed to be polite if somebody comes on here and starts engaging in Holocaust denial? Sorry, but that is how I view your comments both intellectually and morally, totally disgusting, rjs. That is where you are at.
No apologies for pointing out what disgusting and nauseating garbage. Got it?
And I am outtahere for now. Utter and total gag, and nobody should be defending rjs, not for even one second. You are in the same garbage dump as he is with that stuff.
Barkley
Thank you for your opinion.
This really has nothing to do with your commentary elsewhere or what you have written previously, factual or not. Can you only win by demeaning the other person? It takes away from your credibility
OK< will add a bit more, since it is clear that rjs in particular is just completely out of it. We have made tremendous strides and improvements in many areas of the environment, and calling any of that planes crashing and burning is just plain outragesous. Yes, I am personally insulted by this disgusting garbage.
So, rjs, either you are too young to know or your memory is in the toilet. I visited the Cuyahoga River in Cleveland in 1965 when it caught fire. It stank. It was a sort of pinkish goo that was oozing. Now it is clear and clean and outdoor restaurants are located above it. I remember when one kept the windows closed when one drove through Gary, IN or northern New Jerseay, visible stinking air pollution, but not now. I remember having my eyes sting regularly from smog in LA back in the 50s and 60s. They still get smog, but it is a long time since I have had my eyes sting when visiting there.
Hard bottom line is that in the last half century the environmental movement, which I have been a part of since before the first Earth Day in 1970, which was founded in Wisconsin, has had many successes. Many kinds of water and air pollution have been massively reduced by lots of policies, many of them still in place. None of this amounts to any planes crashing and killing people. I am personally proud of my role in all this and find your worthless remarks personally insulting as well as massively wrong and beneath contempt.
Your problem has been to decide that climate change is the only environmental problem there is. It is not. But it is the one that is most clearly out of control. But your comments here have only dismissed and downgraded one of the few serious policy efforts being made in the US on it now, the RGGI. You may think it is insufficient, which I shall not disagree with. But pulling out of it or ending it is surely doing the wrong thing. That will only make the global warming problem worse, not better, and it looks like that is what you support, not only stupid but immoral.
And now, I am really out of here, and those of you attempting to defend rjs should just be ashamed of yourselves. Puke on both of you. I really am totally and thoroughly disgusted.
Barkley
I am just as old, if not older, as you and lived in the cities. You think none of us know what the cities were like? At 19 I was gone out of my parents house for years and never returned. I spent much of my career working in Asia. I know what poverty looks like and we were close to it growing up and I saw it out of country besides serving in it.
Keep the apologies, we do not need them Just stop with the diatribe. Nobody, nobody is learning from it.
i’ve been too busy to check back in here until just now…let me first clarify that i am older than you Barkley, not by a lot, but i am…and while you were visiting Cleveland in 1965, i was living there, working on, and at one point the editor of an underground newspaper that targeted Cuyahoga River and Lake Erie pollution…
i’ll leave you with a few stories from this week that contribute to the ongoing mass of evidence that we’ve already lost the climate change battle, and that cap and trade, wherein those who can pay for it are afforded the right to pollute without any evaluation of whether their pollution has any socially redeeming value, has contributed to the loss…
first, a confirmation of a 100 degree temperature in the arctic this summer, which could not have happened if the normal snow cover were still in place:
then, a big chunk of an Antarctica fixing to break off:
and then midweek, a few days after the unseasonable tornado outbreak that made the headlines:
that article has a litany of records that were broken with that storm to long to post here…
and this week was not unusual; i correspond with activists and journalists and am emailing mailing stories like those every week…the point of my initial question, Barkley, was not to demean you, but to suggest that whether a handful of polluters in Virginia can pay to play polluter or not is not going to make a difference in the disaster already unfolding…if you would have simply answered it as you did with “GHG emissions across the 11 state region have declined 35%, which is pretty impressive.” without disparaging me in the process i would have likely just moved on…
rjs
i would still have asked “what does “declined 35% ” mean? how was it measured?