Children make the bestest hostages
Children make the bestest hostages
Criticisms of Trump in the business press are especially instructive, because they have no obvious partisan motivation. So Josh Barro’s article at Business Insider this morning, castigating his “bully-and-threaten approach to dealmaking,” is particularly noteworthy. He writes:
Donald Trump has a negotiating tactic he really likes: Threaten to do something someone else will really hate, and then offer to stop if they give you what you want.
Call it the “Why are you hitting yourself?” approach to diplomacy.
(More broadly, I would say that Trump threatens settled norms and agreements in all spheres precisely because others have come to take them for granted, and so have let their guards down.)
After noting that he has imposed tariffs on “national security” grounds even against US allies as a tactic to gain concessions renegotiating on existing trade agreements, they turn to the issue of immigration:
… [H]e has threatened to end the DACA immigration program, then ramped up the separation of asylum-seeking immigrant families, in an effort to press Congress to remake immigration law on his terms, including building a wall. ….
Trump’s theory of immigration politics [is that] if he shows a willingness to be more cruel, he thinks that will force Democrats to the table, and that they will essentially bribe him into not mistreating vulnerable people by enacting immigration policies he’s long wanted.
Look at this hostage I’ve taken, he thinks. How could they possibly let me shoot it?
Like Dreamers and SCHIP recipients, the children of migrants are the most vulnerable, innocent, and helpless of all. Deliberately inflicting suffering upon them will call forth tidal waves of sympathy (witness the White House press conference the other day). So to the amoral and those without consciences, they become the perfect hostages. For that very reason, we should expect that children will be targeted again and again and again throughout the Trump presidency, and that once he has pocketed the ransom, the moment that he the ability to renege on the deal, and take the same hostages all over again, he will do so. Thus, for example, already we hear that funding for SCHIP, which was agreed to for 6 years under the February budget deal, is nevertheless again being zeroed out by the House GOP’s proposed budget for next year.
Dealing with such a deliberate tactic calls for cold-blooded calculation, and steely determination. Barro writes:
In government, a combination of pride and political constraints make it very difficult for Trump’s counterparties to take the hit and give him what he wants so he will go away. Plus, they know they will have to deal with him in the future and had better not get a reputation for folding easily.
(Chuck Schumer — who in a panic last February indicated a willingness to vote for funding for Trump’s wall, and thereby conceded his leverage on that point — for your homework write that last sentence on the blackboard 100 times. Not only was this poor procedurally, but a completely unsurprising outcome is that Latinos apparently drew the conclusion that Democrats had abandoned the Dreamers after paying lip service to their plight, and are the one minority unenthusiastic about showing up at the polls this November).
Being cold blooded and steely means potentially making the hard decision to protect Dreamers who are already Americans in every way but legal citizenship vs. migrants who are just arriving or may arrive in the future. But above and beyond that, it means using a fine tooth comb to examine, and reject, any deal if there are “trap doors” which would allow Trump of the GOP to renege before the gains to the hostages are realized, or to retroactively undo those gains. Because at the end of the day, appeasing hostage-takers never works.
And alas, for the next 2 years and 7 months, the entire world must deal with and face down the hostage-taker in Chief.
To Republicans, teh swarthy children aren’t human, they are chips to be played in a power game. It’s only about “winning” for the GOP. Shame.
Don’t make deals with terrorists is one of our many mottos which we like to say but don’t actually live by. When considering a deal with Trump it’s a motto we should use.
Don’t just not make deals on this, but call it what it is: kidnapping.
And they can do it because they are the law and backed by the power of the state.
A new spin on the time worn “it’s for the children” ploy that Liberals use to get support for their policies. You either have immigration laws, or you don’t. You can’t carve out post hoc “but they are cute children, can’t we just look the other way?”
Iif illegal immigrants were likely Republican voters, as opposed to likely Democratic voters would there be as much compassion? I think the answer is obvious.
– Illegal aliens vote illegally in elections. There is no evidence of illegal voting happening purposely or persistent illegal voting. Illegal voting is very rare. Brennan Center for Justice
– Illegal Aliens are more likely to vote for Democrats over Republicans. I do not know who an illegal alien would vote for in an election. They are the silent people who work in the shadows of our community and are unlikely to be seen or heard from by us.
Trump only picks on the weak such as women, children, the sick, veterans who need the VA, the poor, the unemployed, people of different races and ethnicity, etc. It is a dominant Republican characteristic to attack such people.
Not a discussion Sammy.
The immigration laws allow non citizens to apply for asylum. It is not illegal to do so. Taking the children of those legally applying for asylum is kidnapping.
After signing the new VA bill, Trump is holding VA funding hostage for cuts in other programs.
“Illegal aliens vote illegally in elections. There is no evidence of such happening purposely or illegal voting.”
This is false. Many instances of illegal aliens voting are documented, which is easily found. Just google it, Run. It’s just a question of how many.
“A research group in New Jersey has taken a fresh look at postelection polling data and concluded that the number of noncitizens voting illegally in U.S. elections is likely far greater than previous estimates.
As many as 5.7 million noncitizens may have voted in the 2008 election, which put Barack Obama in the White House”
This is often the result of “motor voter” laws, that say if you get a Drivers License, you are automatically registered to vote. But proof of citizenship is not required to get a drivers license. Follow the bouncing ball.
“After signing the new VA bill, Trump is holding VA funding hostage for cuts in other programs.”
This is called “negotiating.” You withhold something popular and necessary to be traded for something that the other side views as less valuable them, but of value to you. It’s the only way to get some spending cuts, which is what Trump and the R’s want: to cut wasteful spending.
Trump has been negotiating all his professional life. It must be child’s play to him to be negotiating with all these neophyte politicians, both domestic and abroad.
Where did you serve?
You either need help on your reasoning skills or your debating skills. Here are your responses:
“Not a discussion, Sammy”
“Where did you serve?”
Just assertions and misdirection.
Where did you serve?
I didn’t serve. My dad did, and I grew up on a military base overseas (Okinawa), later moved to D.C. where there is a large military community, of which I was a part of. I came of age after the Vietnam war so there was no draft.
So what? 95% of the population has no military service. Are they disqualified from commenting?
When it comes to my VA benefits; yes, you are disqualified. I gave an oath to serve my country in time of war and I did it. You have done nothing except to quibble meaninglessly about things which have no impact on you. I carried you on my back and I never complained. You wish to slight me and many of us living and dead. You could have done something besides being a whiny-a** parasite.
I do not feel I have to converse with a parasite who has done nothing and explain myself. I earned it along with others. I also served with those minorities and played with their children when I had no where else to go and they invited me home for the holidays when I was not the duty NCO.
I do not care what your dad did, what did you do besides shirk your responsibility?
I appreciate your service. Selfless and brave. I can only hope I would do the same thing as you if I were in your shoes. You do deserve more credibility on certain issues than me.
However, not carte blanche.
Here is a (partial) list of those who never served in the military: Bill Clinton, Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama, Michelle Obama, Joe Biden, Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren, Tim Kaine, Nancy Pelosi, Chuck Schumer, Martin Luther King,
Are they also “whiny a* parasites”?
Deflection, just you Sammy. We are not talking about them. We are talking about you.
“According to CNN exit polls, veterans voted at a 2-1 ratio for Trump over Democratic opponent Hillary Clinton.”
If you think Sammy is pathetic – check out Bruce Hall’s comments over at the Econobrowser post on this topic. Some Trump supporters have neither integrity nor a soul.
BTW Michael Avenatti has decided to represent these children. Good for him!
Sammy cites something Rowan Scarborough wrote for the Washington Times as his “evidence” on alleged illegal voter. Rowan Scarborough also writes for Human Events where they lie routinely for the right wing.
Rowan Scarborough is a liar. Sammy is too.
if you are going to restrict your knowledge to what the washington times and fox news tell you, why bother coming around here? No one believes the bs you constantly spout.. You are wasting our time as well as yours. Crawl back into you self constructed hole.
“Setting aside surveys, another way to find noncitizen voters is to examine state voter records and compare that with data about immigration status. But states have struggled with attempts to do that. Florida tried before the 2012 election and scrapped the effort amid many errors.
We interviewed other election experts: Rick Hasen, an election law expert at the University of California, Irvine; Lorraine Minnite, political science professor at Rutgers University; and Justin Levitt, a professor at Loyola Law School in Los Angeles who has tracked voter fraud allegations since 2000.
All three rejected Agresti’s conclusions.
There have been some instances of noncitizens voting, but actual evidence has shown small numbers among millions of votes cast nationwide. Kansas Secretary of State Kris Kobach, who co-chairs Trump’s voter fraud commission, has obtained a total of one conviction for noncitizen voting since 2015.
North Carolina’s 2016 post-election audit showed a few dozen noncitizen voters out of 4.8 million votes cast. Ohio Secretary of State Jon Husted announced in February that since he took office in 2011, he has identified 126 noncitizens who cast ballots.
Fox and Friends co-host Ainsley Earhardt said, “5.7 million — that’s how many illegal immigrants might have voted” in 2008.
The number comes from a conclusion by Just Facts, a conservative/libertarian think tank. Just Facts’ numbers came from a study by Old Dominion University researchers. That study was based on a survey which showed that 39 people out 32,800 claimed to be noncitizens who had voted. Just Facts used data from the study and Census estimates on the noncitizen population to come up with a national figure of noncitizen voters.
But other researchers and political scientists have said the small number is not a reliable source of data on noncitizen voters nationwide.
We rate this claim False.”
Let’s leave the issue of illegals voting aside. The number is not zero, but there is no definitive estimate that we will both agree on. We have to rely on the experts.
If we set that aside, we have the issue as to how many illegals that are allowed to stay will be allowed to legally vote in the future. You know, the children of illegals born here are citizens. And the “Path to citizenship” plans, if not downright amnesty. So the Dem strategy is to get them here and keep them here, and eventually, if not immediately, we will get their votes.
Sammy, you can come back and talk to PGL if you like.
Read what Laura Bush has to say.
Immigrant children caged like dogs:
I’m sure Sammy can justify this horror for us!
‘Caged Migrant Children’ Photo Goes Viral … Until It Gets Obama-Era Date Stamp”
“Photos of children at a migrant holding facility have gone viral on social media. The pictures are from 2014. They were originally posted with this azcentral article about unaccompanied migrant children who were transported to a facility in Arizona.”
“A lot of big names are sharing this article from 2014, but they didn’t say a word back when it actually happened under Obama.”
Sammy just blamed it all on Obama. Hey Sammy – this is occurring now:
I just find your newfound compassion for “the children” disingenuous. Where was the outrage in 2014? Or anytime previous on the border. It’s only when Trump is president is this an outrage. It’s “selective outrage’ and hypocrisy.
It reminds me of the racist confederate statue tempest in a teapot.
“No,” Obama the Black Kenyan citizen who became the president of the United States did not separate children from families. He did not have to as crossing the border was a civil infraction which turned into a criminal infraction under the Trump administration as put into play by the Rev Henry Kaine (Poltergeist) AG Sessions. Families were housed in family detention centers.
Trump, Sessions, the Border Patrol are holding children hostage to force a new immigration law.
Trump tougher on illegal immigrants than Obama? Duh, isn’t that the point?
Trump is enforcing the law as it was written and adjudicated. If he is not, sue him. It was Obama that encouraged illegals to show up with kids, then they were released. Or having unaccompanied minors show up at the border. Trump now is dealing with the consequences of this enforcement history.
And, again, it ain’t “compassion” we’re dealing with here. It’s the “votes.”
There is no law forcing the separation of children from their parents after crossing the border. What is happening here is a misrepresentation and misapplication of a law. Sessions and Trump are claiming crossing the border is a criminal act when in reality it is a civil infraction initially as stated in the law.
Sammy’s pathetic dishonesty here pales in comparison to what we heard from DHS Secretary Nielsen:
C’mon Sammy – you need to up your game to keep up with this woman!
It is like talking to a wall. Just call him an ah every time he posts something, maybe he will get tired and take his racist bs somewhere else.
Sammy, you’re a racist ah.
“Someday, there will be an anonymous voice from Guatemala, or a Frederick Coe from El Salvador, or a Ruth from Mexico, or a P.J. Haverty from Nicaragua, or a Verdoner family from Honduras. They will tell their stories of being taken from their parents and locked in cages and kennel runs. They will tell their stories of being penned up in the Texas desert. We are producing broken children at the border right now. We may also be producing criminals. But we are producing witnesses, too, and writers. Their stories will be told. Depend on that.
And right now, the rest of us, all of us, are choosing the history of which we one day will be a part. We are choosing whether or not to be characters in nightmares as yet undreamed and in novels as yet unwritten and in memories as yet unformed. Watch the choices being made. Watch the president* shuck responsibility, spread blame, encourage fear, and lose whatever tattered fragments of humanity were still a part of his very being. Watch his Secretary of Homeland Security, an increasingly loathsome apparatchik named Kirstjen Nielsen, simply try to lie her way out of the history of which she daily chooses to be a part. Watch the pathetic mewling of the Republican majorities in Congress, best exemplified by that useless “moderate,” Susan Collins of Maine, try to cut cheap bargains with their own souls. Watch officials of this government tell members of Congress not to believe the evidence of their own eyes. Watch as the choice of histories is made, one person at a time, and forever.
The government* of the United States—the thuggish, dishonest and unfathomably cruel administration* that we elected to run the country—has chosen the history of which it will be a part. It is the history of the auction block, of the state-sponsored kidnapper, of the God-alibi-ed prison, of the rattling cattle cars, headed east. That is the history of which the government, and all the people in it, have chosen to be a part. This includes the people who dreamed up this policy, the people who are enforcing this policy, and anyone who isn’t doing anything to stop it. They will be the defendants in the future proceedings, the villains in the future novels, and the monsters in a thousand future nightmares. We choose the history of which we are a part.
Rosalynn Carter forcefully condemns this Trumpian policy:
Of course we have some moron named Dr. Mirabilis who ranted:
‘When she was first lady, her husband happily oversaw the genocide in East Timor.’
Notice his link was dated December 1975. I guess this right wing moron does not know that Gerald Ford was President then. Maybe we should all read what Mrs. Carter was doing in 1979 to help Cambodian refugees:
Gotta love this judge sending kobach back to school via sanction. Should have not allowed him to vote the rest of his life as a sanction(that can’t bel legal), but he stopped thousands and thousand of legal voters from voting.
“Here’s something to cheer you up. A few years ago, Kris Kobach, the odious immigration hardliner who is currently Kansas Secretary of State, shepherded a voter ID bill through the Kansas legislature. Today, a Republican federal judge struck down the law in an opinion so incendiary it’s a wonder Kobach himself didn’t go up in flames. She ruled that the law was unconstitutional; that Kobach produced no real evidence of voter fraud; that Kobach’s “expert witnesses” were cretins; and that the law prevented tens of thousands of legal voters from casting ballots.
But that’s not the best part. Kobach chose to personally represent Kansas in this case, and he persistently flouted the rules of evidence by failing to disclose documents and repeatedly trying to introduce new data that he had not given opposing lawyers a chance to see:
The disclosure violations set forth above document a pattern and practice by Defendant of flaunting disclosure and discovery rules that are designed to prevent prejudice and surprise at trial. The Court ruled on each disclosure issue as it arose, but given the repeated instances involved, and the fact that Defendant resisted the Court’s rulings by continuing to try to introduce such evidence after exclusion, the Court finds that further sanctions are appropriate.
‘And Kris Kobach himself gets the ultimate sanction from the court for his failure to comply with the court’s evidentiary rules: he has to go back to school to learn evidence!’
Ha! There’s no one more deserving of being humiliated like this than Kris Kobach. The only question left is whether the voters of Kansas will interpret this as a well-deserved rebuke that makes him unsuitable to become their governor in November; or if Kobach will somehow convince them that it was the act of an elitist judge who loves voter fraud because she’s black. I can hardly wait.”
” The latest outrage by the Trump administration is its policy of “ripping” children away from parents who’ve crossed the border illegally. As with so many other things involving Trump, there’s plenty of emotion but precious little in the way of facts.”
“As Rich Lowry explains in a detailed article in National Review, “when a migrant is prosecuted for illegal entry, he or she is taken into custody by the U.S. Marshals,” in which case, as when other adults are incarcerated in the U.S., they are separated from their children.”
Lowry notes that “The criminal proceedings are exceptionally short, assuming there is no aggravating factor such as a prior illegal entry or another crime. Migrants generally plead guilty, and then are sentenced to time served, typically all in the same day.”
“The Los Angeles Times reports that Rio Grande Valley border agents prosecuted 568 adults and separated 1,174 children since the administration announced its “zero tolerance” policy in early April. However, it only took a matter of hours to reunite more than a third of these children with their parents.
That hardly constitutes an inhumane policy of “ripping” children away from their parents.”https://www.investors.com/politics/editorials/separating-families-illegal-immigrants-trump-immigration-zero-tolerance-asylum/
It does not matter if the criminal proceeding are short. 1st offense is a civil affair where the court decides not Sessions, Trump, or the border patrol. Lowry is wrong. I just cited what the law is. It does not take a mater of hours as some of the children are in Michigan now and others arrived in Atlanta. By the way, are they pleading guilty under the advisement of legal council? Doubtful and they are entitled to the same rights s we are in court.
Yes, there is an undeniable border crises and its not about being pro or anti Trump policies. Human trafficking across the border is the true crisis. Human trafficking has been largely ignored by the pundits, democrats, republicans and so forth who are more interested in accusing or supporting Trump’s perceived ulterior motives in the separation of illegal and/or asylum seeking immigrant children from their ‘families.”
How do you know they are ‘families’ unless the minors are separated from the adults who claim they are the parents in the illegal border crossing or seeking asylum status. How do you know? The adults claiming they are the parents is good enough? Where’s the legal documentation and verification? How do you know the minors have not been sold, kidnapped, and enslaved under the threat of harm to their families back home- for the sole purpose of sex and labor trafficking.
What procedural steps are necessary in making a determination of illegal children entering the USA with an adults claiming they’re the parent?
Here’s the facts:
The fact is Mexico is a large source, transit, and destination country for persons trafficked for the purposes of commercial sexual exploitation and forced labor, lured by false job offers. Groups considered most vulnerable to human trafficking in Mexico include women and children, indigenous persons, and undocumented migrants……
The U.S.–Mexico border has the highest number of both legal and illegal crossings of any land border in the world except for the Canada – US border. According to the U.S. Department of State, the United States is a destination country for thousands of men, women, and children trafficked from all areas of the world. These victims are trafficked for the purposes of sexual and/or labor exploitation. Many of these victims are lured from their homes with false promises of well-paying jobs; instead, they are forced or coerced into prostitution, domestic servitude, farm or factory labor or other types of forced labor. http://www.borderlegislators.org/illegal_trafficking_eng.htm
Human Trafficking—Exploitation of Illegal Aliens
In Guatemala in 2013, Erick Cardenas, the country’s child prosecutor, confirmed that there were 22 cases of stolen babies under investigation that he believes are linked to illegal adoptions. The United Nations special rapporteur on the sale of children, child prostitution, and child pornography, Dr. Najat Maalla M’jid, believes that child exploitation, illegal adoptions, and organ trafficking of Honduran children are increasing. Could some of these 52,000 children have been trafficked into the U.S. for sex, or for child pornography, or to be killed for their organs?
Read more: https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2014/07/immigration_crisis_and_human_trafficking.html#ixzz5IswfqgKW
While anyone can become a victim of trafficking, illegal aliens are highly vulnerable to being trafficked due to a combination of factors, including lack of legal status and protections, limited language skills and employment options, poverty and immigration-related debts, and social isolation. They are often victimized by traffickers from a similar ethnic or national background, on whom they may be dependent for employment or support in the foreign country
Unaccompanied children are placed into detention today. The Law provides for a hearing for families who are kept in detention not on a criminal basis; but, it provides it to be on a civil basis. In the mean time the families are kept under observation. Trump and Republicans have decided to reinterpret the law to separate families from children without a court proceeding. Trump, Sessions, and the Border Patrol in effect have become the court and jury deciding who is guilty and who is not.
How do you know they are not families? The same law that applies to us also applies to them. You are innocent until you are proven guilty.
So 2/3s were not reunited in a matter of hours.
“Let’s leave the issue of illegals voting aside. The number is not zero, but there is no definitive estimate that we will both agree on. We have to rely on the experts.” – Sammy.
But Sammy does not rely on experts. He relies on people who write lies for Human Events. The experts agree with EMichael on this one.
Sammy is quoting Rich Lowry on what is happening at the border? C’mon Sammy – you and everyone else knows Lowry is a right wing hack that lies even more than you do. Stop insulting our intelligence with your supposed “experts”.
“How do you know they are not families? The same law that applies to us also applies to them. You are innocent until you are proven guilty.”
The laws revolving around illegal entry or overstaying are found in Section 1325 in Title 8 of the United States Code. This section, titled “Improper Entry of Alien” will provide a fine or imprisonment (or both) for any immigrant who: 1. Enters or attempts to enter America at any time or location other than what was designated by the United States Government (immigration official, or 2. Any individual who eludes inspection or examination instituted by the United States Government and its immigration agents, or 3. Any individual who attempts to enter the United States by providing a false or misleading representation of oneself or through a willful concealment of fact. For instance, if you provide a false passport, driver’s license or pretend to be anyone else, you will be charged with attempting to enter the United States in an illegal fashion.
The maximum prison sentence for an individual caught in the act of violating immigration policy is 6 months for the first offense and additional 2 years for any subsequent offense.
Individuals who are caught illegally immigrating will face detention, imprisonment or deportation. The United States, per year, holds roughly 300,000 illegal immigrants in immigration detention centers. An illegal immigrant’s deportation is determined in administrative or removal proceedings, held by the government in accordance with United States immigration law. A removal proceeding is typically conducted in an Immigration Court and held by an immigration judge. If the individual is found guilty of illegally immigrating, he/she may be sent back to their home country and barred from re-entry to the United States.
That is section a, there is also a section b, c, and d.
(b) Improper time or place; civil penalties
Any alien who is apprehended while entering (or attempting to enter) the United States at a time or place other than as designated by immigration officers shall be subject to a civil penalty of–
(1) at least $50 and not more than $250 for each such entry (or attempted entry); or
(2) twice the amount specified in paragraph (1) in the case of an alien who has been previously subject to a civil penalty under this subsection.
Civil penalties under this subsection are in addition to, and not in lieu of, any criminal or other civil penalties that may be imposed.
A better explanation for you and anyone else reading:
Improper Entry Is a Crime
To be clear, the most common crime associated with illegal immigration is likely improper entry. Under federal criminal law, it is misdemeanor for an alien (i.e., a non-citizen) to:
Enter or attempt to enter the United States at any time or place other than designated by immigration officers;
Elude examination or inspection by immigration officers; or
Attempt to enter or obtain entry to the United States by willfully concealing, falsifying, or misrepresenting material facts.
The punishment under this federal law is no more than six months of incarceration and up to $250 in civil penalties for each illegal entry. These acts of improper entry — including the mythic “border jumping” — are criminal acts associated with illegally immigrating to the United States.
Like all other criminal charges in the United States, improper entry must be proven beyond a reasonable doubt in order to convict. Think there are attorneies there?
Here Are Horrifying Photos Of Obama’s Illegal Alien Facilities The Media Refuses To Show You
Oh the horror. Children in cages. Let’s see pgl defend this/
Without a doubt, the commentary on this topic has been some of the worst and contentious I have experienced at AB. There is no justification for what has been happening at our borders. The LAW does not require the separation of families and these children separated from their parents will in all likelihood never be returned to their parents. If you are of the same ilk as Trump, Miller, and Sessions who insist they are legally correct and can accomplish this taking of children; you would be better served to take up residence at Breitbart, National Review, etc. It is there, you will find a common avenue for your views.
Politico had this to say on the topic. “We’ve published two fact-checks about family separations, but it turns out these Trumpian claims have a zombie quality and keep popping up in new ways.”
What Trump, Sessions, Miller, Nielsen, and Republicans are stating is a lie. If you wish to support their lies, it can be done more effectively elsewhere. Politico: “The Trump administration owns this family-separation policy, and its spin deserves Four Pinocchios.”
It seems Sammy is arguing Trump’s inhumanity is peachy keen because no one complained about Obama’s immigration policies. But of course this is another patented Sammy lie. The ACLU took some of this to court. I should know as I’m a card carrying member of ACLU.
Of course we can all expect Sammy to cry “womp, womp” when kids with Down Syndrome are taken from their parents.
Steve Schmidt – an honest conservative – has formally renounced the Party of Trump!