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Open thread July 23, 2011

Dan Crawford | July 23, 2011 11:54 pm

Tags: open thread Comments (48) | Digg Facebook Twitter |
48 Comments
  • MG says:
    July 24, 2011 at 12:30 am

    Reducing the Fiscal Year Federal Budget Deficits: Spending and Revenue Options
     
    Here is a brief collection of reports and proposals that address the Federal Budget deficits and long-term fiscal outlook.  The list is rounded out with a 1994 GAO report on the experiences of others nations with deficit reduction. 
     
    Reducing the Deficit: Spending and Revenue Options
    CBO
    March 10, 2011
     
    CBO’s 2011 Long-Term Budget Outlook
    June 2011
     
    The Federal Government’s Long-Term Fiscal Outlook: 2011
    GAO-11-451SP
    March 18, 2011
     
    Opportunities to Reduce Potential Duplication in Government
    Programs, Save Tax Dollars, and Enhance Revenue

    GAO-11-318SP, Mar 1, 2011
     
    List of Selected Federal Programs That Have Similar or
    Overlapping Objectives, Provide Similar Services, or
    Are Fragmented Across Government Missions

    GAO-11-474R, Mar 18, 2011
     
    Back in Black: A Deficit Reduction Plan
    proposed by U.S. Senator Tom Coburn (R-OK)
    July 18, 2011
     
    DEFICIT REDUCTION
    Experiences of Other Nations
    provided by Charles A. Bowsher,
    ComptrolIer General of the United States
    GAO
    December 1994

  • MG says:
    July 24, 2011 at 12:46 am

    These are the section-by-section direct links for Senator Coburn’s proposal.   

    Back in Black: A Deficit Reduction Plan
    proposed by U.S. Senator Tom Coburn (R-OK)
    July 18, 2011

    Executive Summary
    Methodology
    Highlights
    Total Savings Chart

    Spending Reductions:
    General Government
    Congress
    Executive Branch
    Judiciary Branch
    Department of Agriculture
    Department of Commerce
    Department of Defense
    Department of […]

  • amateur socialist says:
    July 24, 2011 at 8:26 am

    Gee Movie Guy you missed this one:  http://grijalva.house.gov/uploads/The%20CPC%20FY2012%20Budget.pdf

    It actually elminates the deficit by 2021 and generates a 30B surplus while investing 1.7T in our nation’s infrastructure.  

    An accidental oversight I’m sure.

  • amateur socialist says:
    July 24, 2011 at 8:44 am

    If you’re going to cite Senator Coburn’s plans in detail you probably ought to check the math very carefully…  
     
    “Lesbianism is so rampant in some of the schools in southeast Oklahoma that they’ll only let one girl go to the bathroom. Now think about it. Think about that issue. How is it that that’s happened to us?”  
     
    “And I thought I would just share with you what science says today about silicone breast implants. If you have them, you’re healthier than if you don’t. In fact, there’s no science that shows that silicone breast implants are detrimental and, in fact, they make you healthier.”  
     
    -Senator Tom Coburn M.D.  (Specialty in OB/GYN)

  • amateur socialist says:
    July 24, 2011 at 8:59 am

    This WSJ editorial tries to explain that payoffs to police and others to cover up phone hacking at their parent company is just part of journalistic compensation of sources:

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303661904576451812776293184.html

    Good luck on that one boys.  

  • CoRev says:
    July 24, 2011 at 9:00 am

    ——————————————–TOLJA SO! ————————–

    From today’s WaPo we have this: “By early evening, the outlines of a two-stage strategy were emerging. First, lawmakers would vote on a package to cut agency spending by as much as $1 trillion over the next decade and raise the debt limit, currently set at $14.3 trillion, by the same amount. That would give Geithner enough borrowing authority to cover the nation’s bills through the end of this year.”

    What I said earlier: “Or, what I really thinks is happening, is that a short term bill with cuts only will be passed.  The story will be that they have reached some longer term or larger deal, and the short term bill will be passed to buy the time needed to finalize the “Big Deal.””

    We will see what the long term “announcement” will contain, but that will just be frosting in the short term.  The next round of fights, the 2012 budget, is just beginning.  Then in later this year we will go through another round of Debt ceiling trauma, but what is obvious is that budget cuts are inevitable and tax reform will be done after the next elections.

    There is more to come on this spending sage, but a large percentage of the voters are actually behind cutting spending.

  • ilsm says:
    July 24, 2011 at 9:11 am

    MG,

    Coburn has been reading the stuff I write here!

  • amateur socialist says:
    July 24, 2011 at 9:35 am

    Yes they are also the ones that pollsters can’t seem to find.  They must not answer their phones or hate answering poll questions for some curious reason.

    This Wapo/ABC news poll July14-17 shows a plurality of self described Republicans favoring increased taxes.  http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/behind-the-numbers/post/poll-taxes-beat-spending-cuts-for-debt-reduction/2011/07/12/gIQAnTOrOI_blog.html

    Where are these mystery voters Co-Rev?  Are they real?  Or just in your head?

  • CoRev says:
    July 24, 2011 at 10:13 am

    Your response seems to have missedmy point re: spending cuts.

    AS from that same poll we have these results re: how to reolve the debt ceiling issue:  
    ———–Cutting federal Increasing Combination No  
    —————-spending — taxes — of both — opinion

    7/17/2011---  32 ---------- 4 -------- 62  -------- 3

    Combining the answers for cutting, taxes and both we have a 94% who want spending cuts
     and 66% who want increased taxes.

  • amateur socialist says:
    July 24, 2011 at 10:15 am

    This week’s This American Life features segments on the recent business phenomenon of Patent Trolling.  http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/441/when-patents-attack

    From the episode synopsis:  

    “We take you inside this war, and tell the fascinating story of how an idea enshrined in the US constitution to promote progress and innovation, is now being used to do the opposite.”

    Lessons learned from the financial industry.  Why bother with expensive and risky innovation when you can invest in becoming a Rentier?

  • CoRev says:
    July 24, 2011 at 10:15 am

    Moderators, I dunno what happened with my format.  I’ve tried to fix twice, so could you reformat, please.

  • PJR says:
    July 24, 2011 at 11:13 am

    I wish we had as many conservative, progressive, “bipartisan,” and think-tank, and individual’s plans for reducing unemployment and generating economic growth as we have for reducing the deficit. I don’t like the family budget analogy because it’s so flawed, but I can’t help thinking that I might consider finding a job before developing plans to balance my household budget by living on the street or asking my friends–or rich uncle–for money. (Not a real example.) Oh well, it’s politics.

  • amateur socialist says:
    July 24, 2011 at 11:45 am

    So I guess what you meant to type above was “…a large percentage of the voters are actually behind cutting spending…. and also increasing taxes”

    Right?

  • sammy says:
    July 24, 2011 at 11:45 am

    MG,

    Don’t forget the Ryan Roadmap  http://www.roadmap.republicans.budget.house.gov/

    and Simpson Bowles
     http://www.fiscalcommission.gov/sites/fiscalcommission.gov/files/documents/TheMomentofTruth12_1_2010.pdf

  • sammy says:
    July 24, 2011 at 11:46 am

    I was trying to find the Obama Plan, but I can’t seem to.  Google must be down as surely the President of the United States has a plan, right?

  • CoRev says:
    July 24, 2011 at 12:03 pm

    Yup!  When associated with rasing the debt ceiling.  BUT, when proposed alone, rasising taxes is against 2/3 – 3/4 of the wishes of the population or voters.

  • amateur socialist says:
    July 24, 2011 at 12:13 pm

    The ones in your head?  Or the ones who answer opinion polls?  You might need to be clear on that.

  • CoRev says:
    July 24, 2011 at 12:25 pm

    Polls, of course. They’re readily available, but do your own research.  I’m tired of doing the math and research for those who just won’t and prefer the talking points approach.

  • amateur socialist says:
    July 24, 2011 at 12:31 pm

    You poor dear.  Try to rest up it looks like a bumpy decade coming for you.

  • coberly says:
    July 24, 2011 at 12:43 pm

    CoRev

    all voters are behind cutting spending.  it’s what to cut that causes the politics.  and it is especially difficult because most voters are completely ignorant about just how the money makes their lives better.

    but more important the latest plan on offer… cut a little now and have the debt ceiling fight all over again in a few months and in the meanwhile create a “super congress” to make all future decisions about revenue and spending… would pretty much guarantee that American democracy has come to an end.  We would be governed by 12 congressmen from secure districts.  Cheaper that way.

  • coberly says:
    July 24, 2011 at 12:45 pm

    CoRev

    once again, you don’t know what math is.  you think selected numbers “prove” your points.

    when i give you real math and real research you just come back with some sixth grade taunt.

    makes me think you should have been spanked and sent to bed a long time ago.

  • coberly says:
    July 24, 2011 at 12:51 pm

    And here is non-Senator coberly’s deficit reduction plan.

    Rescind ALL of the Bush tax cuts…. at least until the deficit they caused is paid for.

    Raise the payroll tax one tenth of one percent per year over the next ten years.  Repeat as necessary.

    Explain to the people that when you are expecting higher medical costs is not the time to cut your medical insurance.

    Enact a “deficit surtax” called the Patriot Defense of America Act of about ten percent (of your current tax bill) until the deficit emergency is over.

  • CoRev says:
    July 24, 2011 at 1:07 pm

    Dale at 12:49 you said this: “CoRev    
       
    all voters are behind cutting spending.”  so you are proposing a 100% tax increase solution that flies in the face of ALL voters?  Good plan!  Good analysis!  And now you still have failed to calculate the actual budget impacts.
     
     
    I’ll just wait over for your superior math skills to show us how your solution solves an annual problem in the ~$1.2T range.  While your doing the math, describe the political strategy for getting it passed.

  • CoRev says:
    July 24, 2011 at 1:55 pm

    If you go to the following links you can find the latest status of te House Appropriations Bills.  
     
    Subcommittees Agriculture, Rural Development, Food and Drug Administration, and Related Agencies

    Commerce, Justice, Science, and Related Agencies
    Defense
    Energy and Water Development, and Related Agencies
    Financial Services and General Government
    Homeland Security
    Interior, Environment, and Related Agencies
    Labor, Health and Human Services, Education, and Related Agencies
    Legislative Branch
    Military Construction, Veteran Affairs, and Related Agencies
    State, Foreign Operations, and Related Programs
    Transportation, Housing and Urban Development, and Related Agencies

  • coberly says:
    July 24, 2011 at 3:18 pm

    CoRev

    keep up the good work.  i have already showed you the math.  and no it does not keep up with an ANNUAL trillion dollar deficit.

    and yes, all voters are against tax increases. but we still need to pay for what we already bought.  and we need to pay for what we are going to need.

    sorry, but this is not a Republic for two year olds.

  • coberly says:
    July 24, 2011 at 3:24 pm

    CoRev  appears to be saying

    that because voters when asked say they are against taxes and for cuts that we should not pay our bills or do the things that need to be done.   

    CoRev, with all respect, this is the stupidity that politicians play to.

    There was a time when most voters understood what they got from government spending… and thought the rich should pay for it.  Those were the voters that Dem politicians played to.

    Nowadays most voters don’t understand what they get from government spending and think they are or will be “the rich” and don’t want to pay taxes.  These are the voters the R politicians play to.

    It doesn’t mean it works to try to run the country that way.

  • coberly says:
    July 24, 2011 at 3:28 pm

    it’s as if CoRev and nine of his friends went to a restaurant and enjoyed a fine meal.  then they all had a vote… by secret ballot.  

    check one

    __  I should pay the bill.

    __  Somebody else should pay the bill.

    The vote was unanimous, so they walked out without paying the bill.

  • rjs says:
    July 24, 2011 at 4:19 pm

    where would we be today if mccain had won?

  • CoRev says:
    July 24, 2011 at 4:29 pm

    No, Obama Care, a better formulated stimulus bill, and no war in Libya.

    In my opinion we would have improved more and faster economically, fewer unemployed, and a smaller deficit.

  • Jack says:
    July 24, 2011 at 6:06 pm

    “In my opinion…….”  CoRev

    That is the most accurate comment you have yet made on AB.  The rest of the statement  is little more than speculative sour grapes.  In the same manner one might speculate that if McCain had been thoughtful enough to choose to run with a VP candidate that had something worth while to contribute to any political debate he might very well have won.  Instead he chose an air head who has manged to parlay the notoriety of helping to lose the election into a media darling career.

  • amateur socialist says:
    July 24, 2011 at 7:20 pm

    Baby steps, Jack, baby steps.  Maybe the commenting infrastructure could be configured to automatically start all CRs comments with those three words…  

  • amateur socialist says:
    July 25, 2011 at 8:23 am

    Meanwhile those nostalgic for Ws stewardship are developing the sequel:  President Rick Perry.  http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2011/07/25/rick_perry_eyes_late_august_campaign_launch_110695.html

  • Norman says:
    July 25, 2011 at 10:24 am

    Curious, have you now taken to censorship? It seems this may be the only way to ask this, as the address printed on your post is invalid, according to the system delivery, but is O.K. to send to my in-box! Just wondering why the posts seem a day late?

  • coberly says:
    July 25, 2011 at 11:06 am

    norman

    very unlikely here anyone has taken to censorship.  you need to check carefully what you are doing. sometimes those system delivery messages are a little mysterious.  is there a stray comma or dot or space somewhere in the address.  check your calendar and remember time zones.

  • Jack says:
    July 25, 2011 at 12:07 pm

    For those of you who may be harboring the illusion that there is an economy wide recession this article and headline from the NY Times this AM.  We can always rely upon the journal of record to remind us that its focus is on the more important aspects of economic life.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/25/nyregion/to-reach-simple-life-at-camp-lining-up-for-private-jets.html?_r=1&hp

    “To Reach Simple Life of Summer Camp, Lining Up for Private Jets”

    And just in case these travel issues prove to be interfering with daily life one can always use those tax savings to take the next big step up.

    “It’s a crazy world out there,” she added. She now sends her children to camp in Europe.”  

    It’s good to see that the Bush/Obama Tax Holiday for the Rich is adding to some sectors of the economy. 
     

  • Darren says:
    July 25, 2011 at 2:11 pm

    Jack,

    “Look, John’s last-minute economic plan does nothing to tackle the number-one job facing the middle class, and it happens to be, as Barack says, a three-letter word: jobs.
    J-O-B-S, jobs.”-Joe Biden

    Yep….boy we really scored with Joe Biden. Real Impressive!

  • Jack says:
    July 25, 2011 at 5:15 pm

    Darren,
    I’n not sure of what your point is, especially in that you address your comment to me.  Have you in some way devined that I’m a cheer leader for the current administration?  I measure current and recently past political leadership in this country on a scale of 1 to 10, with 15 being barely adequate.  The worst part of being a witness to the current absurdity that we’re offered as a Congress and Presidencial office is looking at what is available to replace the current occupants.  You may think otherwise, but I don’t see that any average American is being adequately represented in either branch of the government.  We’ve got a combination of simple minded extremists, former lobbiests (acting in those former roles, but as elected representatives), self interested toadies to great wealth and a scant few able minded centrists. 

    Sure Biden is no winner, but look at the rest of them.  I can’t even imagine Mitch McConnell, John Boehner, Eric Cantor et al in his place, and no, the Democrats have little better to offer except that they don’t seem  quite so anti-government.    

  • Norman says:
    July 25, 2011 at 7:23 pm

    Coberly, no, I use the reply button, it prints the same address as what is on the incoming E-mail. I have noticed though that everything that goes through AOL seems to react the same way. If I didn’t know better, I would begin to think that I have been x’ed on some of the sites as a provocateur of some sort or another. Perhaps it’s because I don’t drink the koolaid some of them serve up? Oh well, thanks anyway Coberly, ar least your gentleman enough to respond.

  • Darren says:
    July 25, 2011 at 7:40 pm

    Coberly,

    “sorry, but this is not a Republic for two year olds.”

    I wouldn’t be so confident. 52% of the country did vote for the mommy party and put a super majority of Democrats into the House and Senate including a man with no experience into the Executive Branch.

    Don’t be so hard on the two year olds, they actually may have something to bring to the table at this point!

  • coberly says:
    July 26, 2011 at 12:08 am

    Norman

    i am a bit confused. in fact i know nothing about computers these days.  but the blog has nothing to do with email.  and, yes, i have had some strange experience with aol email from me to those who have it.  i don’t.

    if you press reply on this blog all that should happen (happens to me) is that eventually you get a little box with your name on it, and a space to right in your comment.  and a button at the bottom that says “Post”  or “Cancel”.

    But again, we don’t even censor CoRev.  except when i am too mean to him and they have to censor me.  then just to be fair they might give him an equal time out.  but you are one of the contributors that i at least am always glad to see.  

  • MG says:
    July 26, 2011 at 1:07 am

    It should prove very interesting to see how Democrats on the blogs and elsewhere defend Senator Reid’s federal budgets’ deficit reduction plan. It has been obvious that Democrats have been quick to thoroughly condemn most if not all Republicans positions on deficit reduction.

    How will the Democrats handle Harry?

    Reid’s plan
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/post/reids-plan/2011/07/11/gIQAHOl8YI_blog.html

    Boehner’s plan
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/post/boehners-plan/2011/07/11/gIQABzV3YI_blog.html

    The obvious compromise between the Reid and Boehner plans
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/post/the-obvious-compromise-between-the-reid-and-boehner-plans/2011/07/11/gIQAJa8DZI_blog.html?wprss=ezra-klein

    It will be interesting also to see what CBPP has to say, considering that they have already attacked Boehner’s plan. I am not convinced that CBPP’s Greenstein has actually seen a hard copy of Boehner’s plan based on what he said about it.

    CBPP Statement on Boehner’s plan
    July 25, 2011
    http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=3548

    Defending Reid’s plan is not going too well on another econ blog. One poster, anne, summed it up nicely:

    “Do explain why only, only, only Republican spending cuts are a problem for the economy but Democratic spending cuts which are larger are no problem at all? Why is Democratic austerity better than Republican austerity for an economy that has 1.47 million fewer men and women working now than in December 2000? I really want to know.”


    AB’s main posters could put up a main post on this issue, too. Erza Klein has done all of the hard work.  Robert was quick to slap the Republicans around.  Does he intend to go after Reid as well? 

    What say you, Democrats? Do you support Reid’s plan?

  • MG says:
    July 26, 2011 at 1:34 am

    OBAMA  VS  BOEHNER

    JULY 25

    Video: Obama vs Boehner

    Transcript: Obama vs Boehner

    .

  • amateur socialist says:
    July 26, 2011 at 8:14 am

    Another story documenting our newest emergent underclass:  http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/26/business/help-wanted-ads-exclude-the-long-term-jobless.html?_r=1&hp

    Employment has become redefined as a one-way process.  Once an employer rejects you (Or for that matter fails to keep you working) you’re out for good.  Can anybody imagine a regulatory or political response to this?   

  • amateur socialist says:
    July 26, 2011 at 8:36 am

    After the fact I realized my concluding question contained an inherent if predictable bias.  So I will amend it:  Can anybody imagine a free market or competition based response?  

    I can’t.  By my understanding this is exactly the kind of discretion and prejudice implicitly protected by free enterprise/markets.  If I put on my manager/owner hat I can easily justify this winnowing as a time saver if nothing else.  Why bother considering people who aren’t already accustomed to the existing regime of unpaid overtime and declining wages and benefits?  

    But I grant that my limited experience with that hat decades ago may have also made it difficult for me to see how the god of competition will provide an answer.  

  • coberly says:
    July 27, 2011 at 9:39 am

    MG

    on the chance that you get this.  I am not a democrat.  but you miss some of the details in the plans that do make them different. you also miss the politics of the Reid plan which was apparently to bring the R’s out to oppose the very proposals they themselves made.

    i will keep saying, though no one notices, that the details matter.  Most folks get a horseback view of something and if they like the color of it, they “agree” with it.  they just don’t have time for details and they must abide the unintended consequences… but not learn from them.

  • coberly says:
    July 27, 2011 at 9:43 am

    am soc

    you are not wrong.  the power of employers, esp big employers, to treat workers as no different from machines… or worse.. machines that may have dangerous opinions…  has been noticed before and people have attempted to provide a countervailing power.  almost always the people lose in the long run.  we are probably watching the beginning of a very long run.

  • coberly says:
    July 27, 2011 at 9:45 am

    oh by the way.  competition is not the problem.  at least small scale competition should provide an answer, and the free market apologists will insist that it does… the workers just pack up and go work for someone who offers them a better deal.

    sadly, the facts of the real world suggest that this is not so easy.  power inevitably goes to the big guy and can only be resisted by community action… and that is very very hard to come by.

  • MG says:
    July 27, 2011 at 8:19 pm

    Coberly,

    I didn’t miss anything in reading the two plans.  Sure, they’re different.  I didn’t indicate any preference for either plan.  But I do question why Democrats are so quiet about Reid’s plan. 

    Reid’s plan includes over $1 trillion in supposed defense savings due to reduced war spending that was already known to the negotiating parties.  That’s not new savings.  Reid’s plan is a sham.   

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