There Hasn’t Been a Body Slam Like This Since to Glory Days of Hulk Hogan
David Neiwert (h/t Rebecca Lesses) doesn’t quite get it right:
There will be a lot of hand-wringing in the coming days over the shooting of Rep. Giffords this morning at a constituent event — some of it, almost certainly, from the folks at Fox, who will wonder aloud how this kind of thing could happen.
It can happen, in fact, because conservatives so thoughtlessly and readily use violent eliminationist rhetoric when talking about “liberals” (to wit: anyone who is not a conservative). They will adamantly deny it, of course, but the cold reality is that this kind of talk creates permission for angry and violent people to act it out.
Susan of Texas notes that The Atlantic, in the person of their resident economics and finance blogger, is rather married to the idea as well.
Or how about this on for size, and just as true:
“It can happen, in fact, because liberals so thoughtlessly and readily use violent eliminationist rhetoric when talking about “conservatives” (to wit: anyone who is not a liberal). They will adamantly deny it, of course, but the cold reality is that this kind of talk creates permission for angry and violent people to act it out.”
And the link to a nice compilation of the left’s eliminationist rhetoric and actions. Note especially the treatment of President Bush. I believe there was a well recieved book even about assassinating the then sitting President. And of course all the love of VP Cheney.
http://michellemalkin.com/2011/01/10/the-progressive-climate-of-hate-an-illustrated-primer-2000-2010/
BWT, it looks like from all the initial information that the shooter was a pot-smoking leftie (aka hippy?) who had a problem with the congresswomen since at least 2007.
Drop the high horse….
Islam will change
“The mother killing her two children in South Carolina vividly reminds every American how sick the society is getting and how much we have to have change. I think people want to change and the only way you get change is to vote Republican. That’s the message for the last three days.”
-newt gingrich on susan smith
“I want to say to the elite of this country – the elite news media, the liberal academic elite, the liberal political elite: I accuse you in Littleton…of being afraid to talk about the mess you have made, and being afraid to take responsibility for things you have done, and instead foisting upon the rest of us pathetic banalities because you don’t have the courage to look at the world you have created.”
-newt gingrich on virginia tech
BTW,
Rep Giffords is reporting to be able to communicate, if feebly, to some basic attempts to get through. Doctors don’t expect the swelling to go down for another day maybe two. Personaly, from the description of the injury, I don’t have any expectations for her long term recovery.
But I have hope though and keep her in my prayers.
—
I believe there was a well recieved book even about assassinating the then sitting President.
—
A book that was so well received and influential that you can’t even remember the book or the author.
In contrast, Palin is the party’s most visible presidential contender while Beck is on air for hours a day and makes tens of millions of dollars.
That’s some equivalence.
the second gingrich quote above was from columbine, not va tech.
presidential contender in whose eyes? as one that is not left-of-center, she’s not even on my scope. (opps, can i say ‘scope’?)
WSJ BlogsJune 14, 2008, 1:29 PM ET Obama: ‘If They Bring a Knife to the Fight, We Bring a Gun’
The meme from now until the apocolypse will be the false equivalace of violent rhetoric from both sides. Michelle Malkin cherry picking grotesque images from web sites few of us have ever seen or heard of is not quite in the same league with a recent candidate for the No. 2 office putting Bull’s eyes next to the names of candidates she wants eliminated, or a senatorial candidate talking about 2nd amendment solutions for a program she doesn’t like, or a sitting representative syaing she want her constituents to be “armed and dangerous,” or a prominant radio host fantasizing on the air about killing people with his bare hands, And all of them screaming all the time about how they have to take back America from the Commie muslim in the white house who wants to desteoy our liberty and subject us to death panels.
Sorry, Buff, but that’s the best you’re going to be able to do with this, and it’s bull shit.
But don’t worry, the MSM is behind you 100%
Which is a damned pity.
JzB
I have a more pointed question: Where were all the armed people that the NRA promised would stop this kind of event? For decades the NRA has said “if only the state would allow people to be armed they would have prevented this event.” Well, Arizona allows just about anyone with a heartbeat to pack a concealed weapon, and I’m sure there were more than a few armed Arizonans shopping that morning when the attack started. So, where was the long promised NRA response?
My guess is the they were diving for cover or running from the store like everyone else. In the end Jared was subdued by two unarmed men and an over-60 woman. I ask again, where were the NRA hero’s who, by virtue of being able to “carry” anywhere would assure that somebody like Jared would not get away with this kind of crime?
Perhaps the lack of response was due to lack of training, or because they aren’t paid to actually risk their lives for a fellow citizen in mortal danger. Or, prehaps, the NRA argument is simply an excuse to pack a weapn because you are frghtned.
As to the causes, I have my own thheory: The States are remiss in their Constitutional duties to have a “well regulated militia” which includes all those people beaing arms within their borders. After all the Second Amendment clearly states that the purpose of bearing arms is to defend the free state. But no, the state of Arizona (joined by all the states) doesn’t regulate that part of the militia. If they had I doubt that Jared would have passed muster sufficienly to be permitted to bear arms due to his mental condition. No police force, or military unit would have taken him either – yet he could legally purchase, load, conceal and walk into a public place and use that weapon to kill people with absolutely no resonse from any of the NRA membership.
I’d like to see the entire Second Amendment enforced not just the dependent clause.
And from the Left Wing Hate Site DKos,
Markos at the Daily KOS June 25th, 2008.
Who to primary? Well, I’d argue that we can narrow the target list by looking at those Democrats who sold out the Constitution last week. I’ve bolded members of the Blue Dogs for added emphasis
[Giffords is bolded]
Not all of these people will get or even deserve primaries, but this vote certainly puts a bulls eye on their district.
Markos has also said recently Gifford was “Dead to him” for voting against Pelosi for speaker.
And don’t forget Markos Tweet, going viral already, that quote, “Mission accomplished, Sarah Palin.”
Yep, lots of love on the left…
Islam will change
jazz,
hey that was just a small list of lefty violence. Those sites catologe things that actually happened – not what some blowhard on a radio show said. Actaul events. Or do you miss all the left-wing rants at all the anti-Bush (not anti-war since they approve it now with a D in office) ralleys were the left risked sunburn on the mall?
And everything is pointing to a very mentally disturbed left wing shooter that was fixated on the Congresswomen since 2007 – long before Palin and the Tea party made the scene. On the otherhand if we was listening to the hate filled left wing sites like DKos, that might have given him the idea.
So basically reality, once again, shows your full of BS.
Islam will change
str,
You can find plenty of Rhetoric in the same vain from Obama. the head of the Democrat party, as oppossed to some also-ran VP from the R party (even if she was more qualified than Obama)…
Have you noticed just how very hard the left is trying to pin this deranged lefty as a Palin follower and supporter? When in reality it looks like politcis has nothing to do with any of it? He was just a nutcase.
Islam will change
Gandhi was a liberal.
Gandhi was a liberal.
ilsm will not change
The report of the intern who kept her alert was she could respond, a good sign.
Yes, let’s hope and pray.
Okay, Kos, is a former US Army E-3 up against likes of Beck, Limbaugh, Palin and Gingrich.
Real lot of impact from his little blog.
ilsm will not change
George,
Or maybe there was no one there with a gun but the shooter? Your rant is from left field.
Jared was subdued by a retired Army Col (who had already taken a grazing head shot), a young gay intern from her staff, and that 61 year old lady who grabbed his fresh magazine while he tried to reload. (talk about covering all your PC bases…) Once he was down everyone piled on and the cops grabbed him. Sounds like an excellent response to an ambush – unfortuanately to late to stop the carnage.
The idea that not being ablt to buy a gun a Walmart would have saved everyone is ludicrous on its face. Get a grip.
Islam will change
ilsm,
Markos Zunigas Moulitass, founder of the left wing hate site DKos, gets well over 500K hits/day and has such Dem luminaries as N. Pelosi, H. Reid and the 2004 Dem Presidential candidate J. Kerry interveiwed on his site. He was also a strong supported over D. Pres Obama during the 2008 election.
He is considered a rising star in the Dem and progressive wings of the left. He’s also been seen on a few of the Sunday talk show rounds – who seem to forget he founded a hate site.
So his little hate blog does seem to have a big following – you will find very few lefty/Dem sites that don’t link to him and I think it a very good thing that Angry Bear doesn’t. And it only takes one deranged shooter to do lots of damage.
Islam will change
I was really trying to avoid even getting into this one but it really touches a nerve with me George, start by reading this blog that documents the use of firearms in self defense – it happens every day, though it did not happen in this AZ case:
http://thearmedcitizen.com/
BTW here is a NH Lawmaker that used a gun in self defense on Jan 6th 2011:
AMHERST – Two very different paths crossed late Tuesday night at a house on a quiet street in Amherst: a newly elected state representative on the eve of his first official day in office and a key witness in the trial of Steven Spader, the teenager convicted of hacking a woman to death in nearby Mont Vernon.
Police say Eldon Spikes, 20, broke into the home of Representative Peter T. Hansen, 67, who ended up holding Spikes at gunpoint until police arrived.
“I was quite startled, especially when he introduced himself as tied to the people involved in the Mont Vernon murder, and when he said there was someone else with him,” said Hansen, a Republican representing District 6. “At the time I was not armed, but I did have a permit for my personal protection. I retrieved my gun and held him there and called the police.”
http://www.unionleader.com/article.aspx?headline=Gun+stops+intruder+%28and+Spader+trial+witness%29+at+lawmaker%27s+home&articleId=df5ec12d-4fc1-4f01-954d-ee4cae03a889
Also countries with stricter gun laws also have these massacres:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/4980192/Germany-school-shooting-High-school-gunman-warned-of-massacre-on-internet-chat-room.html
The person responsible for AZ was Jared, and his probable mental illness. Sure they may have been triggers, but isn’t that the case with every killer? And how can we eliminate every trigger? I do agree that political conversation in this country has completely degraded on BOTH sides, a big reason I am now a staunch independent. But, I am not blaming anyone but Jared for this rotten incident.
This whole incident came at a strange time for me, as someone(s) attempted to break into my house while I was asleep 2 weeks ago. I think my dog may have scared them off. This would not be the first attempt or burglary for me either. We have had a rash of brazen burglaries on my 4 block area. I am glad I have the option to defend myself, because the government is not doing it in Baltimore very well.
buff,
Hyperbole. A retired nuclear warrior calling dKos a hate site!!
“So his little hate blog does seem to have a big following”
I have not been there in a coupla years, when I did read I saw critical thinking etc, I never saw anything like “hate”, you have examples, frequencies and criteria.
“500K hits a day” whoohoooo.
Limbaugh probably makes that in a week in terms of cash for his brand of BS.
I won’t say much about Rush, all the ditto heads are out there.
Possibly you may think critical thinking is hate, so much for a guy who hauled around nukes on a B-52. No critical thinking there if the code confirmed then do the mission. How many lives………………….
Hate, you do know hate. In the early 80’s the US conference of Catholic bishops ran a hate campaign on nuclear warriors stating that it was not moral for a christian to run around with nuking people no matter how bad the reds were.
Hyperbole?
ilsm will not change
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.” — Voltaire
(Tag line for Jeff Huber’s Pen and Sword Blog, http://www.zenhuber.blogspot.com/ so buffpilot can go there and see how hateful retired Navy commander Huber is to bathtub admirals and similar war profiteer plunderers)
If some right wing radio nut case can get ordinary poor nutcases to believe their absurdities are the right wing radio nut cases culpable for the actions of the perpertartors?
The Romans during the republic thought so, and brutally executed those who incited the mob.
ilsm will not change
Anyone who has to resort to Daily Kos to create an equivalence between “the left” and Sarah Palin (former mayor, former governor, former VPOTUS candidate for the GOP), as well as multimillionaire wingnuts like Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh is certainly desperate indeed.
And anyone who has to resort to Michelle Malkin’s quote mining in comments of blogs is lame to the point of despair.
Buffy, do you think we’re stupid, or do you actually believe the bulls*** you post here?
Joel, the leftist brain trust.
Joel,
Tackle the point of the argument, defeat it with reasoned analysis and fact. If you can’t do that, then your the one spewing the B.S.
Ask yourself why you feel the need to attack, if you haven’t been formally challenged?
We know why, but do you?
Dan,
It may be coming close to the time for you to rescue your blog site from the increasing hold of a few individuals with an increasingly distorted view of the reality of today’s American politics. it is becoming tiresome to read and re-read comments that border on the absurd when they are not outright distortions of fact.
Psycho-killer, qu’est que c’est? What more do we need to know? Keep the guns out of their hands. Find a way. It will happen again. We will all again lament such “unforeseeable” events that are all too predictable. Madness is in our society. Encouragement abounds. Glory awaits. Psycho-killer, qu’est que c’est. Je me lance vers la gloir.. Why continue to aide and abet their lust for infamy? Resolve the problem or they’ll kill again.
Jack – “It may be coming close to the time for you to rescue your blog site from the increasing hold of a few individuals with an increasingly distorted view of the reality of today’s American politics. it is becoming tiresome to read and re-read comments that border on the absurd when they are not outright distortions of fact.”
Dan could start with some of these statements by participants “that border on the absurd when they are not outright distortions of fact” stated on the other thread that created some reactions by other readers:
“I can’t help wondering what beck would feel like if someone shot his wife.”
“Maybe Wyoming should give up statehood and become independent. Or, better yet, an occupied territory.”
“With the brown shirts acting up I don’t depend on ‘big sister’.”
“I hope the Rebublicans and the Tea Bag knuckleheads are happy.”
“Lunatics listen to Palin, Beck and such. Great ya’all hide behind the excuse the lunatics you espouse are running amok!”
“I am an expert on your poison which provokes people to take action in a manner which is dangerous to themselves and those around them. What would you tell me of mental illness fool?”
“knuckle heads like Beck, O’Reilly et al espousing extreme behavior”
If Dan did that you would have to tone down some of your statements as well. Unless, of course, you’re just promoting one-sided censoreship and intentionally ignoring inflammatory commentary that deserves to be questioned if not refuted.
Aside from your apparent call for lopsided censorship, I agree with your general statements regarding the matter of mentally unbalanced individuals.
George, Jack, and ilsm,
You’re right on. I agree with most of what you say. The “outright distortions of fact” keep coming out of the “wall” here and everywhere generally right of anything called moderate.
Buff
Your examples of equivalent hateful rhetoric is absurd. False equivalence has become the smoke screen for people too cowardly to take responsibility for the consequences of their own words. True enough that Jared Laughner may have carried out the deed all on his own through his haze of psychotic ideation. It’s the atmosphere of hate and intolerance that provides such a disturbed person with a plausible logic to his illogical thoughts. It’s the ridiculous attitude toward gun ownerhsip that put a rapid fire, semi-automatic weapon with a 30 shot magazine into his hands.
jake,
Joel, the leftist brain trust.
Wrong. There are no brains there.
If some right wing radio nut case can get ordinary poor nutcases to believe their absurdities are the right wing radio nut cases culpable for the actions of the perpertartors?
The Romans during the republic thought so, and brutally executed those who incited the mob.
On what basis do you believe that the shooter was right wing? How do you know he listened to glenn beck or el fatso? The dude was Jewish. His mom went to the same synagogue as the congress woman. How do you know he did not get all jazzed up after a reading of the Book of Ester and act like west bank Yeshiva students who beat up Palestinians when the sabbath is over? The Romans outlawed the reading of the book of Esther on Purim for just this reason. You suggest we take a page out of the Roman book? Should we outlaw the reading of the Book of Esther as well?
If some right wing radio nut case can get ordinary poor nutcases to believe their absurdities are the right wing radio nut cases culpable for the actions of the perpertartors?
The Romans during the republic thought so, and brutally executed those who incited the mob.
On what basis do you believe that the shooter was right wing? How do you know he listened to glenn beck or el fatso? The dude was Jewish. His mom went to the same synagogue as the congress woman. How do you know he did not get all jazzed up after a reading of the Book of Ester and act like west bank Yeshiva students who beat up Palestinians when the sabbath is over? The Romans outlawed the reading of the book of Esther on Purim for just this reason. You suggest we take a page out of the Roman book? Should we outlaw the reading of the Book of Esther as well?
If some right wing radio nut case can get ordinary poor nutcases to believe their absurdities are the right wing radio nut cases culpable for the actions of the perpertartors?
The Romans during the republic thought so, and brutally executed those who incited the mob.
On what basis do you believe that the shooter was right wing? How do you know he listened to glenn beck or el fatso? The dude was Jewish. His mom went to the same synagogue as the congress woman. How do you know he did not get all jazzed up after a reading of the Book of Ester and act like west bank Yeshiva students who beat up Palestinians when the sabbath is over? The Romans outlawed the reading of the book of Esther on Purim for just this reason. You suggest we take a page out of the Roman book? Should we outlaw the reading of the Book of Esther as well?
“If some right wing radio nut case can get ordinary poor nutcases to believe their absurdities are the right wing radio nut cases culpable for the actions of the perpertartors?
The Romans during the republic thought so, and brutally executed those who incited the mob.”
On what basis do you believe that the shooter was right wing? How do you know he listened to glenn beck or el fatso? The dude was Jewish. His mom went to the same synagogue as the congress woman. How do you know he did not get all jazzed up after a reading of the Book of Ester and act like west bank Yeshiva students who beat up Palestinians when the sabbath is over? The Romans outlawed the reading of the book of Esther on Purim for just this reason. You suggest we take a page out of the Roman book? Should we outlaw the reading of the Book of Esther as well?
Jack,
Your examples of equivalent hateful rhetoric is (sic) absurd.
No they are not. They are dead on.
But some think they have no flaws. They really don’t know their flaws. And they can’t see them. So they don’t want to make room for their own improvement to become better human beings. So they choose not to see their flaws. They rationalize their `flaws’ in relative terms and to make themselves feel better about their flaws, they eagerly indulge in the psychological practice of `downward comparison’.
I wished I had a semi automatic weapon with a 30 shot magazine, but I can understand your aprehensions about this type of weopon. It is not really necessary for self defense or hunting, and as far as the quixotic concept of keeping the government at bay and honest, again it is not necessary, because it is impossible to out gun the United States Government. Society should try to keep guns away from nut jobs, but gun owners know any cooperation with would be gun conficators would be like allowing the camel to put it’s nose under the tent. Next thing we know their is a vemin infested carcass sitting next to us wonder what is next on the menu. It’s too bad their is so little ground for comprimise on this issue.
Wow,
I thought this was a reality based blog. Let’s get to the bottom line here. Every indication in the press is that Jared Laughner was a mentally ill leftist who seemed to be fixated on Congresswomen Giffords since at least 2007.
There is no indications, except in the fevered imaginations of the loony left, that Palin, right-wing radio, Republicans in general, the illuminati, or the mafia had anything to do with this.
And there are plenty of examples of hate and intolerance from the left linked to on this thread itself. I can get plenty more easily. Another link to another list: http://pajamasmedia.com/eddriscoll/2011/01/10/acid-rhetoric-flashbacks/
Plenty of hate and intolerance on the left out there. But the left has been to cowardly to take responsibility for their ACTIONS. But they sure seem ready to limit freedom of speech and confiscate guns (1st and 2nd Amendments in one shot).
Islam will change
Cursed,
Bill O’ Reilly was raised catholic, made little difference where he turned out.
I assumed the dude was an ‘ordinary’ nutcase.
I assumed a lot.
Roman republic is the icon of many……………………..
“right wing radio nut cases culpable” as much as Goebbels’ propaganda for running around the populace.
Neat tale about the Romans’ censoring the Hebrew scripture, who do you quote? Josephus, Libby?
I never saw that.
Most of us lefties are non violent, some of us come by it later.
Yama Yoga 5000 years old do no harm.
Whether christians do the golden rule is irrelevant.
As to this kid you push reality describing him as leftie.
Reading the Communist Manifesto is reading an economic tract. Marx had some real input describing the excess value of labor and worth of management and the bourgesoisie in efficiencies in the ude of resources and concentration of production.
And Orwell appeals to a lot of anti communists. ie Animal Farm……. Who said 1984 was not about fascists, it was any totalitarian regime.
Despite the fact that Orwell fought against the fascists in Spain in 1935.
But the left has been to cowardly to take responsibility for their ACTIONS.
The French revolution, the revolts of 1848, as well as the Bolshivik revolution, were all inspired by leftest rable rousers, and the ensueing assassins were predominitely leftest. The left has done everything imaginable to hide it’s bloody hands.
With some exceptions history shows conservatives attemping to preserve the established order, while leftest attempt to to tear it down. The left with a near monopoly of bloody assanations is increadibly decietful, about the scale of suffering they have brought man kind.
“Everything”? Not hardly. Pot and right-wing ideas are not mutually exclusive. Certainly, the idea that government is too big is straight out of GOP talking points. Gold-bugginess is, in recent decades, largely a right-wing notion, too.
This is just buffy, putting his name to right-wing push-back PR. In the GOP version of the workd, if it’s bad, it must be from the left.
Reality? Since when, buffy, do we rely on you for reality? I keep seeing this “he’s crazy, so it isn’t political” claim being made, almost entirely by righties who need to find a place to hide from gun violence against a Democratic politician who ended up in Palin’s cross-hairs. So I asked a pro. What, I asked the PhD therapist who deals with schizophrenics and various other suffers from serious metal problems, what do you make of the notion that if the shooter has mental problems, then his motive for shooting cannot be political. The immediate answer was “one doesn’t preclude the other.”
The view of the professional with years of experience (as opposed to the guy speaking from a barstool with a “GOP Rules!” bumper sticker) was that people with metal problems are just as likely to respond to environmental stimuli as the rest of us, and those stimuli can include political speech. There is no record of crazy talk of alien mind control before the invention of tin foil. There is no record of the delusion that an implanted micro-chip was controlling the deluded individual’s behavior until there were micro-chips. See how that works? Crazy people actually do hear and respond to what is going on around them. What does a real psychological professional say about the likelihood that the rhetoric of violence heard on blather radio and spewed by Republican politicians could induce a crazy guy to violence? “Of course it could.” We call crazies “unbalanced” for a reason. It;s easy to tip them into unwelcomed behavior.
And despite buffy’s desparate attempt to serve the interests of his political masters, the simple fact is that violent rhetoric in mainstream politics is largely a habit on the right. The left (what passes for a “left” in the US) has been far too slack-jawed trying to figure out how transpartent lies from the right keep winning votes to say much of anything. buffy is very good at writing in a tone of dimissive assurance that aims at making his statements indisputable, but he is simply being dishonest in suggesting there is a sort of moral equivalence between Democrats and Republicans when it comes to
If you have to go back to the second French Revolution then you have to say it installed Louis Phillipe as King in a constitutional monarchy. Nothing very leftist about the change of governnment in that case. As for the Russian Revolution, you have to go back more than 100 years to 1905. Both of these revolutions occurred outside the US. Not our style in America. Far away and long ago.
While it is true that conservatives attempt to preserve the established order, attempts to do so can result in great loss of life. For example, consider the large number of fatalities associated with labor disputes in the late 19th and middle 20th centuries. Or just after WWI, consider the suppression of the Bonus Army which resulted in the deaths of four veterans and injuries to many others. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonus_Army The use of force has consequences, of course. And threats of force do too as recent events show.
As the saying goes, the plural of “anecdote” is not “data”. Far more people are harmed by gun violence than are saved from violence by guns. That’s what the FBI routinely reports in violence stats.
Mcwop was seconding buffy, who has decided to call what George had to say a “rant” because he didn’t have any good answer to the point George raised. An armed society is, in the NRA’s claim, a safer society. Where’s the evidence? Not “a guy stopped a robbery” story and certainly not the claims of a website devoted to aggrandizing gun ownership. Real evidence that the proliferation of guns in US society has made the US safer? Cause if it isn’t there, then claiming guns make us safer is malarky, sort of like claiming tax cuts are a sure elixir for growth or that Republican control of government is good for growth. Sort of like implying that Democrats are as likely to engage in the rhetoric of violence as much as Republicans, based on one quote from the President.
Hate site, as defined by buffy? Gotta ask, when did we start letting buffy declare who is who and what is what? Five hundred hits a day? There are click-through ads for toothpaste that get that many hits. Five hundred hits is tiny for an open cite. Dear hosts, how many hits does this site get?
buffy is at it again, making stuff up and pretending that his story – no matter how biased – is the story. Making statements so certain that poor innocents may fall for them is buffy’s stock in trade, but buffy’s acquaintance with objective statement of facts is limited, and grudging. buffy is here to sell the world according to buffy, to rush to the defense of anyone woth an R by their name on the ballot of “presidential candidate in the pay of Fox News” on their resume. His performance in this set of comments is among the most obvious and egregious.
Since when do we let buffy tell us who is who and what is what? buffy, who has a mission to push back any criticism of Republicans, who pretends that Democrats are leftists, whose acquaintance with objective truth is scant and grudging? Hate site? Calling a spade a spade is hate speech, when buffy is holding the spade, I suppose.
oh, well, cursed
i was going to keep out of this, but you just said something i get let go…
no doubt there have been violent revolutions from the left, but the “preservation of the established order” is founded on systematic organized violence. i don’t say whether this is good or bad, it’s just the way the world works.
meanwhile there is no reason for the revolutionaries from the right to give up there violent rhetoric. why should they. it worked for hitler, it will work for them.
poor dear buffy and i engaged in some mutual violent rhetoric on our first meeting here. i at least have some insight into where such things come from. i hope that even buffy can see where they go to… if restrained by even moderate common sense.
thing is… and this is true for both right and left… there is nothing in human nature that will restrain itself if encouraged by the “culture” they embrace, or by intolerable living conditions.
what is hugely funny about the “right” is they cry about the intolerable living conditions they suffer while living a wealthier life style than kings and queens… except of course for the state pageantry.
Cursed,
But that concern doesn’t match the reality of the past century. I live within NYC, a locality with the strictest gun laws. When I was much younger I had no difficulty purcahsing a hunting rifle, a 30.06 FN Mauser. A beautiful piece of craftsmanship and deadly top man and beast. The strict regulation of hand guns didn’t hamper my gun ownership at all. I knew some people who could demonstrate to the police dept a plausible rationale for carrying a concealed weapon. They were then licensed to do so and did. Some level of control doesn’t mean total prohibition.
On the other hand, “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed,” shouldn’t mean that assault weapons are every man’s entitlement. Note that the ammendment reads, “the right of the people” and not the right of every person. Scalia and his ilk missed a distinction that Hamilton and Madison were far too thoughtful and specific to disregard.
KH there are more than anecdotes. Gary kleck and John Lott have gathered statistics on self defense use by guns. The FBI tabulates no such statistic so far as I know. In Baltimore the governmnet is not protecting us from criminals, when the penalty for illegal gun use averages 6 months in prison. Sad fact is that Democrats hate putting criminal in Jail so all your blowhard talk on guns is menaigless, becuaase I doubt Democrats could follow up with menaiful penalties. You will moan about overcrowded prisons, and Jesse Jackson will come to the defense of armed robbers.
BTW here is a nice quote from 1/7/11:
“Senate President Thomas V. Mike Miller (Democrat) was far more blunt on the topic. In recent appearances he has pushed a hike to the gas tax and disparaged recent candidates who’d taken a “no new taxes” stance: “Those people aren’t worth the powder you’d blow them up with,” Miller said.
Maybe Miller can go have lunch with Palin sounds like they have a lot in common.
oh, well, cursed
i was going to keep out of this, but you just said something i can’t let go…
no doubt there have been violent revolutions from the left, but the “preservation of the established order” is founded on systematic organized violence. i don’t say whether this is good or bad, it’s just the way the world works.
meanwhile there is no reason for the revolutionaries from the right to give up their violent rhetoric. why should they? it worked for hitler, it will work for them.
poor dear buffy and i engaged in some mutual violent rhetoric on our first meeting here. i at least have some insight into where such things come from. i hope that even buffy can see where they go to… if restrained by even moderate common sense.
thing is… and this is true for both right and left… there is nothing in human nature that will restrain itself if encouraged by the “culture” they embrace, or by intolerable living conditions….which is why those leftist radicals were able to inspire revolution… the true inspiration came from living conditions. absent that, people ignore rabble rousers.
what is hugely funny about the “right” is they cry about the intolerable living conditions they suffer while living a wealthier life style than kings and queens… except of course for the state pageantry.T
And you have does an extensive study on “violent” political rhetoric by party affiliation, or are you now relying on Anecdotes, which it clearly appears EVERYONE is LEFT and RIGHT.
John Lott? You’re still taking John Lott seriously? John Lott who makes up fan girls to praise him/ John Lott who makes up data? John Lott? Bring it on, baby?
If you are unaware of FBI violent crime stats, that’s not my problem.
And let’s notice buffy’s assertion that the Daily Kos engages in hate speech (how many times you figure buffy will try to slip “hate” into his description of DKos – you know, like a propagandist would?) aims at shifting the focus away from incitement of violence. Let’s all pretend that saying mean things is the same, no matter the substance of the mean thing. “She ain’t very smart” is now on the same level as “Shoot her.”
Putting aside the nonsense that calling Republicans liars when they lie is hate speech, let’s have some examples of DKos inciting violence. Show us the equivalent of “take her out” or “lock and load” or putting up a human shaped target at a GOP campaign fund raiser with the Democrat’s initials by the target, and letting contributors shoot at it. And let’s remember that the guy who has apparently hurt buffy’s feelings is not a candidate for the Democrats. As a pundit, he pales in comparison to Beck and Hannity and Rush and the list goes on, but he isn’t actually representing the Democrats. Republican candidates, who receive money and support from the GOP and from other Republicans, engaged in speech that aggrandized violence against Democrats. buffy wants to tell us that DKos showing outrage at Republicans when they do outrageous things is the same as a gun-toting Vice Presidential candidate using a gun-sight to identify a Democrat she wants to “take out”.
cursed,
Are you a Bircher (not a birther)?
Were fascists conservatives, right wing, or leftists?
There are no FBI statistics on defensive gun use. If you got a link then bring it, I would love to see the stats.
Now I could not very well qoute Josephus for an event that took place after he died.
I’m sure you are aware a number of Jewish revolts against Roman rule. Dealing with dudes with a masada complex is never easy. I’m not sure when they censured the reading of Esther in Rome. It was some time between Neros’ fire and the 3rd revolt though.
In light of the fact that Kharris has called into question my veracity with the keyboards, what makes you say that the tale of Esther was of Hebrew orgin? Mordecai appears to be a derivation of Marduk from Babylon’s panthiem. No where in the text is God mentioned. The tribe of Juda could not have been scattered about in such large numbers in Persia. I posit that common foklore held store some memory of such event, and the Levite scribes took the story as if it were there own, because the Levite preist wholly commited to avoiding a day of hard work could only maintain himself by scaring the bejesus out of there meal tickets. Just because the words are hoary with time does not deminsh a very piss poor messege.
Kharris,
I just did, plus provided plenty of links throughout this thread.
Get you head in the game there KHarris and join us in reality. The shooter was a mentally ill left wing nutcase. Simple as that – or have you been following the news?
Come back when you have anything to say.
Islam will change
That law won’t stop anyone, how does one intercept? A gang leader was killed on the block next to me, 25 feet from an elementary school:
http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/news/crime/blog/2010/03/more_on_donatello_fenner_and_t.html
The only thing that will reduce gun crimes is to put people in prison that use guns to commit crimes – put them in prison for a long time. Even that will not comepletely stop gun violence.
Nancy
The French revolution like the English Revolution before it was foreshadowed by a barrage of phamphlets criticizing establish order. Both revolts let to regicide in short order. Deputies favoring regicide sat at the far left of the assembly, which gave definition to the term left and right. Revolutions have a way of taking on lifes of there own, and just because the family ” who learned nothing, and forgot nothing”, was restored to the thrown, does not negate that fact that from it’s inception the French revolution was mid wifed by the left.
coberly
Revolutions are a change of the ruling elite, and all the words associated with them are window dressing and propaganda. The best a peon can hope for is a little noblesse oblige, from its ruling class.
ilsm
No I am not a Brother Bircher, but I cannot find it in my heart to hate them.
The national socialists are at niether end of the spectrum. Had Hitler truely been to the far right he would have at least invited the Kiaser for a little strudel when blew up the box car where the treaty of Versaille was signed.
Let me be clear where I stand on the whole gun and violence issue, becuase I feel some are trying to paint me as some crazy right wing reactionary.
I do think there is too much gun violence in the US. I also believe there is too much violent crime. I live right in the middle of it. In 2010 alone there were 2 murders within 300 feet of my house. One murder was a stabbing and one a shooting. Baltimore has shootings daily; almost 100% are carried out by people with extensive criminal records.
However, my solution is to put violent people away for a long time, because it is already illegal to use a gun to commit a crime, versus a gun ban.
I do believe in people’s rights to own guns, but with some reasonable limits. But still, I feel the solution to gun violence, is to put people that use guns to commit crimes away with mandatory sentences. Luckily, our Mayor has woken up and is lobbying for just that.
With all that said my solutions will not prevent a mentally ill person from carrying out a crime like in AZ, especially if they have no criminal record that would cause them to fail a background check (I am fine with BG checks). Also, if the person is dangerously, mentally ill, nobody may realize it in time – not sure we can do much about this, and it may be the byproduct of a free society as much as anything else.
As I said earlier in this thread, I have been thinking of getting a gun to defend my family, because the crime just won’t go away. Burglars are breaking into people’s homes in my neighborhood, while those people are home – this just happened to me.
It saddens me this AZ killing is being politicized, and the tone of the rhetoric around it from all sides is bothersome, but I will wait to get more facts before jumping to conclusions on Jared.
cursed,
Sorry, I studied latin in high school, but lately I have been trying to get my mind around Marius and Sulla and how their little tiffs lead to Caesar, Crassus and Pompeius Magnus doing the first triumvirate thing, which after it unraveled ended the republic. Cicero wrote in those times and was executed for being on the srong side of the Caesar assassination.
I need to read up on Josephus aside from a history mag article I read about his surviving a seige and capture by the Romans in Palestine and ending up a Roman citizen, and in his day a pop culture historian who was handed down to us.
In answer to someone Caesar was assassinated by the folks who thought they were saving the republic.
Those times may be informatoive for these.
It seems Caesar did have a thing for Cleo……………
My hunch was wrong, you are not a Bircher!!
Then you can be less than hateful toward the Mao who fought Japanese and warlords. I am no fan of Chiang, he was AWOL too much against the Japanese, saving the US arms for doing Mao. Unfortunately for Chiang, fighting the Japanese was good experience, when fighting Chiang it was way easier than the Imperial Japanese Army
Hitler was a national socialist who believed control of the means of production should be between him and the Kruppes. Sort of like his own little military industrial complex, only they got carried away, it was supposed to plunder not blunder into the American, British and Red Armies defeating them.
I don’t think the Kaiser was in any train car Hitlker blew up, was he?
McWop,
There’s tough places all over.
The US is good at putting lots of people in prison it is less good at preventing repeat offenders and the original offend as well.
Talke some of the money from the drug war cprofits omplex and use it where it might do some good.
Peter King raison d’etre appears in his earlier years to have been raising money from Catholic Irish Americans in order to support the armed struggle of the Irish Republican Army in it’s terror campaign against the United kingdom, and my fellow Ulstermen. I cannot believe that good comes from evil, and I cannot but believe that Peter King is evil, as such I cannot support any hypocritical thing that comes from his pen.
In my nieghborhood we have pit bulls and shot guns, and there has not been a murder for years
“right of the people” not equivalent to the right of every person??? I think that may be one of the dumbest things ever written on this blog. Congrats.
By the way, read other ammendments, like the first and fourth, to see other rights that belong to the people, but not to people.
I read parts of Josephus books. I comprehended little and remember less. I’d recomend that you save your eyballs and skip Josephus works. But according to Josephus we think we know that two factions of a Judaen civil war pleaded with Pompay “Please help us”. Pompay decided that Hyrcanus, who having betrayed his family, and swindled his foes out of an enourmous sum by selling a pig leg rather then a lamb limb suitable for sacrifice, was a dude that Rome could do business with. This is the problem with empire. It corrupts both parties.
After Titus’s final solution Judaism had no more temple, and had to recreate itself. At this same time and place as Bruce would say Paul had his V – 8 moment, so in Rome the masses where confused and were not sure where the lines between Christian and Jew emerged or for that matter between Christ and Mithra. Christians were the worst offenders of the civil order after the reading of Esther and I belive the prohibition was directed mainly at them. But then I like josephus has been accused of an agenda.
McWop:
Which is why we have 1% of the population in prison now? Amazing isn’t how liberal the judges are today. We spend more on prisons then we do on education annually per person.
What I ment to say was – Hitler forced the French to sign terms surrender in the same rail road car as the Germans had been forced to after WW1. Had Hitler any magnaminity or respect for the old order he would have asked that the humbled old Kaiser to attend the signing of the French terms of surrender which at that time was the crowning acheivement for German national ego. after the signing cerimony Hitler had the rail card blown up.
Chaing’s former bossman Sun Yat-sen was probabley the most enlighted and well intetioned politician of the the twentieth century, yet western powers did everthing possible to negate his influence and put him in an early grave. Chaing clearly was unable to fill his shoes, but he represented a better choice then Mao.
cursed,
My view of christians, they were fine until Constantine made them the state religion, down hill since!!!
Became a materialistics zealotry.
Siggy,
Your thinking is your own, say what you like, don’t mean I will take you serious.
“Chaing clearly was unable to fill his shoes, but he represented a better choice then Mao.”
Your opinion, I disagree. Chiang (Madame Chiang had the brains and the seductive wiles) would have been a Syngman Rhee, if the China civil war ended without conclusion Stalin would have supported Mao from Manchuria and from there Mao would have done Chiang in 1950 while Kim IL Sung would have hit on 25 June anyway. We know how South Korea stood up!
Hey we could go back and forth it is fun but I think rdan has other uses for the blog.
Regards!!
The editorialization at the end has no basis in fact
As a cultural christian I regretfully concluded that at no time were Christians fine. Their early leaders defined both deciet, and intolerance. It was a religion suitable for a slave caste, provided that it’s adherents never adhered to the messege. It attempted to incoperate elements of several religions into a neat and tidy one size fits all religion. In this endevor what ever messege Christ had was either lost of trivialized.
“right of the people” not equivalent to the right of every person??? I think that may be one of the dumbest things ever written on this blog. Congrats.
When I am old and infirm or too high to clearly see, it is not important that I have a gun. What is important is that my son and the people I have formed a comunity with have a gun.
When my gf catches wind of my other gf it is important that my gf does not have a gun, however when cooler tempers prevail and I am not close at hand it is important the my gf have a gun.
When I am really ticked and seeking confrontation it is important that I do not have a gun. Other times certain confrontations can best be avoided when it is well understood that I am well armed.
Life is nuanced. There cannot be rights with out reponsibilities. Those who are less responsible should have less responsibilities. Clearly there are certain people who should not have guns.
cursed:
Of coure it has fact. As having been there, I say it does have a basis. Most of you would shoot yourself as you have not been trained adequately nor have you been in a combat situation. At best cursed, you and McWop would wet your pants. Many of us shit a brick the first time. The two of you are big talkers as usual.
Run, Your 1% comment is non sequitor. Fact is there is little penalty for gun use here in Baltimore:
NOVEMBER 10, 2010
Rawlings-Blake to push for tough gun sentencing
Baltimore Mayor Stephanie Rawlings-Blake today announced that she will seek legislation that would enhance the penalties for illegal gun possession and make the crime a felony.
Speaking before a group of top law enforcement officials, Rawlings-Blake called for a change to state laws that would create a minimum sentence of 18 months and a maximum sentence of 10 years for defendants arrested with an illegal, loaded firearms. The current penalties call for sentences between 30 days and three years.
Aides say Rawlings-Blake plans a grassroots effort to lobby for the bill – she has been pitching the proposal in meetings with community groups and plans to launch a website and social media efforts to get citizens behind it.
“Too many of these convicted gun offenders are quickly released back into the community and go on to commit other gun crimes,” Rawlings-Blake said.
http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/news/crime/blog/2010/11/rawlingsblake_to_push_for_toug.html
Please back up your second statement, because based on what I could find it is not true.
Prisons $70 billion total in US per year
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_States
Versus
Education $972 billion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_United_States
Ah, little jake. Nothing to add to the discussion, I see.
Does having 500 Jiu Jitsu fights under my belt count as a combat situation? I have actually tried to stop a mugging with no gun, and I did not wet my pants.
Dem Congressman who called for GOP Gov. to be put against a wall and shot now pleads for civility
Ex-Rep. Paul Kanjorski, D-Pa., pens an op-ed in the New York Times today about the proper political response to this weekend’s tragedy. I wholeheartedly support the former Congressman (Kanjorski lost his seat in November) when he argues that, following this weekend’s shooting, Congressman need to remain open and accessible to the public. However, Kanjorski is rather hypocritical when he climbs up on his soapbox:
We all lose an element of freedom when security considerations distance public officials from the people. Therefore, it is incumbent on all Americans to create an atmosphere of civility and respect in which political discourse can flow freely, without fear of violent confrontation.
Incumbent on all Americans to create an atmosphere of civility and respect? Congressman heal thyself! Yesterday, I noted that, according to the Scranton Times, Kanjorski said this about Florida’s new Republican Governor Rick Scott on October 23:
“That Scott down there that’s running for governor of Florida,” Mr. Kanjorski said. “Instead of running for governor of Florida, they ought to have him and shoot him. Put him against the wall and shoot him. He stole billions of dollars from the United States government and he’s running for governor of Florida. He’s a millionaire and a billionaire. He’s no hero. He’s a damn crook. It’s just we don’t prosecute big crooks.”
http://washingtonexaminer.com/blogs/beltway-confidential/2011/01/dem-congressman-who-called-gop-gov-be-put-against-wall-and-shot-n#ixzz1ApbALFcl
Dem Congressman who called for GOP Gov. to be put against a wall and shot now pleads for civility
Ex-Rep. Paul Kanjorski, D-Pa., pens an op-ed in the New York Times today about the proper political response to this weekend’s tragedy. I wholeheartedly support the former Congressman (Kanjorski lost his seat in November) when he argues that, following this weekend’s shooting, Congressman need to remain open and accessible to the public. However, Kanjorski is rather hypocritical when he climbs up on his soapbox:
We all lose an element of freedom when security considerations distance public officials from the people. Therefore, it is incumbent on all Americans to create an atmosphere of civility and respect in which political discourse can flow freely, without fear of violent confrontation.
Incumbent on all Americans to create an atmosphere of civility and respect? Congressman heal thyself! Yesterday, I noted that, according to the Scranton Times, Kanjorski said this about Florida’s new Republican Governor Rick Scott on October 23:
“That Scott down there that’s running for governor of Florida,” Mr. Kanjorski said. “Instead of running for governor of Florida, they ought to have him and shoot him. Put him against the wall and shoot him. He stole billions of dollars from the United States government and he’s running for governor of Florida. He’s a millionaire and a billionaire. He’s no hero. He’s a damn crook. It’s just we don’t prosecute big crooks.”
http://washingtonexaminer.com/blogs/beltway-confidential/2011/01/dem-congressman-who-called-gop-gov-be-put-against-wall-and-shot-n#ixzz1Apd9Llvg
Sammy
and there you have it. I can endorse Kanjorski’s language because I use that kind of language myself. “Of course” I know and he knows we are only speaking for effect, with no intent to murder. So how can we complain about the “right wing hate machine”?
well, because it seems to be more systematic and, er, cold blooded?
i dunno. But i suspect the answer is that we have got ourselves into a time when violent rhetoric is likely to become real violence, not so much because of the crazies… i don’t remember much violent rhetoric before JFK was shot, though there was plenty of it in the South before MLK was shot… and more than rhetoric.
thing is, when you talk violence, the other side thinks violence, and unless there is some calming down, there will ultimately be real violence. i suspect that if the right continues to have its way in this country, conditions will become so bad you will have wide spread violence.. only the people shooting each other won’t have a clue who the real bad guys are.
i don’t see a way out at this point. but from my perspective most of the real danger right now is from the right who are systematically teaching their followers to hate government and to hate liberals. i don’t see systematic hate mongering from the left… yet.
cursed
hasn’t been a murder in my neighborhood for years either. guns are not obvious and the only big dogs are mine and i work very hard to make them non threatening.
i understand the thinking that leads to gun ownership and carrying. but it is 99% self deception. your odds of ever needing it are extremely small. the odds of your using it successfully if you need it are even smaller. the odds of it being used against you, or accidentally killing someone you love are greater.
but no, that doesn’t make me want to see the government take away your gun. i am paranoid enough to think that when the people are no longer armed, the government will become oppressive… it’s not a question of a people’s militia being able to fight the army, it’s a question of the rulers not needing an army… always dangerous… to oppress the people.
mc wop
we already put people in jail for long times. hasn’t, for example, cut drug use. crime does seem to go down when the economy is doing better.
i am not especially “soft on crime” but i do believe we need to use our heads to solve… or reduce… the problem. not treat everything as though we were a small tribe in the wilderness with only the occasional bad guy to eliminate.
Agree and disagree. The war on drugs is an abject failure, and decriminalization with treatment would probably greatly reduce gun violence, and the prison population. The vast majority of gun violence is related to the illegal drug trade, same thing happened during prohibition.
Now when it comes to violent crime in Baltimore, one of the most violent cities, gun criminals serve negligible time as I posted earlier here. And those same people go on to commit more gun crimes when released. 6 months for a gun crime is nothing, and not a deterrent in Baltimore.
coberly,
i don’t see systematic hate mongering from the left… yet.
Of course you don’t. There is a psychological phenomenon called “Downward Comparison”:
In his self-evaluation maintenance (SEM) model, Tesser (1986; 1988) has
argued that psychological closeness can lead to two different evaluation processes
(see also Blanton, in press). These are termed the
comparison process and
the reflection process.
In the comparison process, close others are used as
standards of comparison for evaluating the self. This leads to a contrast effect on
self-evaluations such that individuals will feel enhanced by downward comparison
and diminished by upward comparison. Thus, when the comparison process
is activated, individuals will seek close relations with downward comparison
targets as a way of creating a positive contrast between self and other.
coberly,
i don’t see systematic hate mongering from the left… yet.
Of course you don’t. There is a psychological term called “Downward Comparison”:
In his self-evaluation maintenance (SEM) model, Tesser (1986; 1988) has
argued that psychological closeness can lead to two different evaluation processes
(see also Blanton, in press). These are termed the comparison process and the reflection process.
In the comparison process, close others are used as standards of comparison for evaluating the self. This leads to a contrast effect on self-evaluations such that individuals will feel enhanced by downward comparison and diminished by upward comparison. Thus, when the comparison process is activated, individuals will seek close relations with downward comparison targets as a way of creating a positive contrast between self and other.
http://faculty-gsb.stanford.edu/millerd/docs/2000expsocpsyc.pdf
mcwop
good for you. but “tried” to stop?
what i have heard is that ju jitsu does not translate well to street fighting.
cursed
i essentially agree about christianity as practiced, but the amazing thing is that Christ’s message has survived all these years in spite of the church. i am not sure we aren’t losing it now to the gospel of mammon and the fear of so many that Christians want to take away their peepee.
sammy
does this apply to you?
as for me, i don’t have any peers. what i see is SYSTEMATIC violence talk on the right, and random violent rhetoric on the left and a left that is so traumatized by the idea of even hurting people’s feelings that they can’t organize a coherent plan among themselves let alone an effective counter to the very well organized “right.”
i put “right” into quotes, because the powers behind the “conservative” movement today don’t give a damn about conservative values, they only use them to trigger primitive responses among their unsophisticated supporters.
Did not know Jiu Jitsu back when the mugging occured, which was around 1995. I mainly train Jiu Jitsu, but as a part of that we practice self defense for street. I also do some judo which translalates well to the street. The #1 best option on the street is avoid the fight and get away, too many variables can go wrong. We train just that type of thing too.
Main point is that I have been in a lot of fights, so I am used to that type of stressful situation, and just wanted to point that our to run who is assuming a lot of things about me.
What happened during the mugging was two men were beating a man, and trying to get his wallet. I ran up, stopped, yelled for someone to call the police, then grabbed a suspect. The other ran off, I struggled with the suspect for about 10 seconds, and he ran off. They did get his wallet.
Kind of regret joining this thread. I just feel there is zero evidence so far that Jared was politically motivated, I feel that both Democrats and Republicans have an awful tone, trying to discuss gun politics, and crime. The latter being a big issue that I face trying to live and make Baltimore a better place. I have leraned a lot from this blog, but I disagree sometimes too. I hope some feel I have attemepted to discuss facts, and use reason.
I accept that guns are misused, but many people do not misuse guns. Seems to me owning one is less hazardous than driving.
mc wop
to be sure. most folks drive like they were waving a loaded weapon while walking on ice in the dark.
i also agree with most of what you say about fights. there seem to be two elements that are hard to teach in a class: one is a kind of personal agressiveness… a run to the sound of guns. i have this. it is not always wise. the other is experience in fighting… real fighting… nothing like play combat. i don’t have so much of that… but enough to recognize when the other guy does. time to back off unless the situation is truly desperate. that lady who grabbed the clip had at least the first. most people do not.
i agree about the politics of this argument… generally not very useful in understanding.
but that applies to my opinion about your politics as well. you don’t seem to recognize that your “reason” is another mans “folly.” not taking sides here, just trying to point out why you aren’t getting traction. same reason i’m not.
and who is to tell us which?
Yes, self defense is just that DEFENSE, it is a last resort.
I agree one’s reason can be another’s folly, and sometimes I get heated in threads too.
Now, if this post was about how our health care system fails the mentaly ill versus ‘how sarah Palin caused this”, then I’d be on board 100%. Our current system for handling mental illness is a horrid mess, and failure. If anything at a bare minimum mental health should be covered by a national plan. That is the real failure here, and in Virginia Tech and so mnay non-drug related rampage shootings.
Cursed, et al.,
Your citation of the total text of the Second Amendment is appreciated. Your analyis, partially makes my point – that the problem is not the weapons, the problem is the states which have abandoned their dutiy to regulate the militia.
The purpose of said militia is to protect the state; nowhere in the Second Amendment any reference to “Self Protection” although that might beinferred as an implied benefit of being part of the militia. When we read the history of the development of the Bill of Rights out of the Virginia Declaration of Rights we learn that the wording of each Amendment was carefuly crafted to avoid misunderstanding — each-and-every-word is important, not just the ones we like.
Unfortunately, no state today thinks that they are responsible for regulating the militia of armed citizens. They spend all of their energies debating the weapons (that would be the arsenal). I’m all for more state regulation of the militia (that would be the armed people) with type-licensing dependent on screening and training.
To address the issue of personal/home/family defense: handguns are, for most people, a very poor choice. Shotguns on the other hand are next to perfect but just not as sexy as a Glock.
Yes, I have had extensive weapons training and a history of using them. No, I don’t currently own any kind of weapon by choice.
mcwop
noted. more or less agreed. still don’t like the systematic hate rhetoric.
George
whatever the words of the constitution “mean,” the constitution would not have been ratified and the people would not have agreed to be ruled by a government that took away their guns.
this produces a tension in the law when the sheriff needs to take away the guns to prevent a civil disturbance. but note that if you don’t want to give up your gun to the sheriff, you don’t have to come into town. and the sheriff, if he is wise is not going to go looking under the beds of the honest citizens.
i probably don’t like guns at least as much as the most liberal person here, but i am not looking forward to the government that take them away from the people.
Buff
When your primary reference is Michelle Malkin you have no basis for complaining about the level of reality represented on this blog site. Also, your earlier reference to the pajamas media site brings up a list of isolated comments over a span of years and those aree comments made by people in the entertainment business as one time occurrences. No, you have not shown any level of equivalence to scum bags like Malkin, Beck, Limbaugh, et al.
coberly,
I can endorse Kanjorski’s language because I use that kind of language myself. “Of course” I know and he knows we are only speaking for effect, with no intent to murder.
Of course, this is obvious as you regard yourself as manifestly beneficent, however this nuance would likely be lost on your average muderous lunatic.
as for me, i don’t have any peers. what i see is SYSTEMATIC violence talk on the right, and random violent rhetoric on the left and a left that is so traumatized by the idea of even hurting people’s feelings that they can’t organize a coherent plan……..the “conservative” movement today don’t give a damn about conservative values, they only use them to trigger primitive responses among their unsophisticated supporters.
If there were pictures in the Psychology 101 textbook, yours would be at the top of the section on “Downward Comparison.”
Sammy
and yours would be in the chapter on “can’t read.”
i am rather hard on liberals because i consider them feckless. but conservatives are more effective exactly because they know how to organize the unthinking masses by appealing to primitive emotions.
and, in general, while i don’t think that liberals are any kinder in their personal lives than conservatives (the real people, not their “leaders”) it is obvious that in matters of public policy they are far, far more apt to be motivated by something like the golden rule than today’s “conservatives” who have elevated stupid greed to a religious principle.
Run
I am not a fire arms expert. I do not want a concealed weopons permit – I do carry a gun. I have friends that do have permits. They had to attend a number of classes and demonstrate proficency with weopons. I believe that they would have demonstrated the same restraint and good judgement as the armed good Samaritan. You just pulled that 2 percent number out of the air. Why rain on the would be hero’s parade?
Coberly
I don’t know anything about judo or ju jitsu. I wish I did. Unfortunately I am a street fighter, albeit not always a good one. I train by hanging drywall and smoking marajuana. Recently I sustained a black eye and a pulled groin, and an enourmous amount of razzing from my friends. My timing sucked and I slipped on the loose gravel that day. Had I been undergoing stretching as martial arts require I probably would not have pulled my groin, and my timing might have been better. The down side of that would be rather then two visits from the police, I probably would have my day in court. I cannot see how studing martial arts would not be aplicable to street fighting. One of my fears is always been a well trained wrestler. I watched Mcwops video from a year ago. Thats what those those guys do.
I don’t think Pit Bulls make good gaurd dogs. By nature they are agressively friendly. Breeders are supposed to put down any that show hostililty to people. Mixing pits with guard dogs is not a good idea. My pit just died two months ago, when she attacked the tire of a speeding vehicle. I still have a couple of her pups. I suspect that if some one where to break in they would be greeted with wagging tales and affection. My point is that would be perps no matter how tantalized they are by what I might have going on, are probably going to be daunted by the most obnoxious rooster in the county, two pit bulls and a well armed pugilist. Perps like soft targets. Perps do not like a well armed citizenry.
“right of the people” not equivalent to the right of every person??? I think that may be one of the dumbest things ever written on this blog. Congrats.” Sigmund
Well Sigmund, that was the prevailing interpretation of the 2nd ammendment for the past two hundred years prior to the “non-activist” Supreme Court of Roberts and Co. Try hard to understand that the ammendment has three clauses in one short sentence. First, “A well regulated Militia. That regulated Militia is, “necessary to the security of a free state.” It is those two elements that leads to the third, “the right of the people to keep and bear arms.”
The Roberts court over turned many years of precedence with a twisted logic that suited a right wing ideology which see the individual as being more important than the society within which it lives.
Sammy, beautiful response to: “as for me, i don’t have any peers.” I noticed his abject inability to undestand he was the pinnacle of examples for “Downward Comparison.”
Susan Smith was the daughter of a Republican county official and there is no evidence that she fell far from the family tree.
I hope your post was intended to be snark. If so it failed miserably.
‘If They Bring a Knife to the Fight, We Bring a Gun’
Rusty why you be hatin’ on Sean Connery? Maybe you need to unbelt that Rust wallet and take your hard working nurse wife out for a classic movie. Okay maybe the Untouchables wasn’t classic but it had some good lines. Including the one not quite exactly quoted here.
“Or maybe there was no one there with a gun but the shooter? Your rant is from left field. “
Or maybe there was a guy there with a gun that almost capped the guy that disarmed the shooter. Which rant is from reality field. Plus the guy with the gun was sensible enough to keep it in his jacket lest he be seen as the second gunman. He and we got really lucky that this guy made the right decisions. But there ain’t no guarantee that the next six guys carrying concealed at the same event at the same time will get that lucky. “Man with a Gun!! Shoot to Kill!!!”
It is not like they hand out ‘Good Guy’ badges to shooters at the mall prior to the caps flying.
“I was quite startled, especially when he introduced himself as tied to the people involved in the Mont Vernon murder, and when he said there was someone else with him,”
You got to be shitting me. “Sir, I am one of the perpetrators of a heineous crime and involving I am afraid to say some nasty blood letting but if you would just possess yourself of a gun I am sure we can bring this to a safe conclusion”.
That is supposed to be a learning example.
John Lott is a very ill individual, whatever Mary Rosh had to say. If she actually existed.
“Main point is that I have been in a lot of fights”
Bullshit. By your account you have been in a lot of bouts under control of a judge/referee. Unless you have been taking yourr martial arts skills to bars on a regular basis since 1995 and actually ignored your own advice. And man this has to be the most pathetic crime-stopper story in history:
“What happened during the mugging was two men were beating a man, and trying to get his wallet. I ran up, stopped, yelled for someone to call the police, then grabbed a suspect. The other ran off, I struggled with the suspect for about 10 seconds, and he ran off. They did get his wallet.”
Let’s add this up. Both guys got away. With the wallet. Christ my grandmothers could have gotten that result. And the younger of the two died thirty years ago. At age 90.
Buff come on.
Number of works on Loughner’s reading list by Ayn Rand: 1
Number of works on Loughner’s reading list by Karl Marx: 1
Obviously a commie. Come on man you are a better thinker than that. Or do you actually believe that Hitler was a leftie and so taking the ratio to 2:1?
Because God know’s they are not more gay/liberal/democrat friendly than the folks at StormFront.
This twisted soul listed fucking Peter Pan as one of his favorite books. And Gulliver’s Travels. And Alice Through the Looking Glass. Ya think maybe he was more motivated by some sort of escape to Neverland than anything? Christ Michael Jackson was more grounded in political thought than this guy.
I don’t use psych terms because they often are used in non-specific ways and without the caveats necessary for understanding. Just like economic terms are bandied about as well without the contexts of meaning necessary.
I don’t use psych terms because they tend to be used in overly general meanings and without the context and caveats the research at least implies, or even stated limitations of findings by the authors themselves.
Such theories often do not overlap with theories on groups.
To state a behavior is fine, even one suggested by psych, but quoting a ‘psych says’ is a slippery slope and to assume some science backs up the claim creates a false assurance of objectivity. Best to stick with a description of behavior.
Many ‘processes’ of thinking can happen simultaneously, even some that appear to contradict each other. But we all know this.
A local director of a trauma center once suggested since we know how to treat trauma victims alternative explanations are a distraction. But it is necessary to hold doubt in mind at the same time as committing to a course of treatment, knowing treatments are often not strictly accurate to any individual or class of patient.
While CoRev and Sammy pat each other on their backs I’ll simply repeat myself.
“True enough that Jared Laughner may have carried out the deed all on his own through his haze of psychotic ideation. It’s the atmosphere of hate and intolerance that provides such a disturbed person with a plausible logic to his illogical thoughts. It’s the ridiculous attitude toward gun ownerhsip that put a rapid fire, semi-automatic weapon with a 30 shot magazine into his hands.”
Assume that the ill tempered manner of political debate in this country in recent years has had no effect in the specific cas of Mr. Loughner. There’s is little hope of proving the claim one way or another. What is irrefutable is that a man with serious issues regarding behavioral self control was able to stroll into a dept store and purchase an assault weapon. Maybe he was hoping to get an advantage over some fast reacting deer in the mountains surrounding Tuscon. Hunters need repeating rifle weaponry when stalking the beast. Does that really make any sense? Self defense you say? Join your local police department. The guy who helped to subdue Loughner reported that he had his hand on his pistol ready to do what may have needed to be done when he saw the guy with the gun. Fortunately he hesitated because the guy with the gun at that moment was another of those that had subdued the attacker. What a nice headline that would have made. “Six Shot and Killed By Gunman; Oops One To the Rescue Shot and Killed By Another.”
Professional police forces take discharging a fire arm very seriously and investigate every instance to assure that no officer has reacted badly. Still many bizarre episodes occur. Does the name Amadou Diaolo Educate yourself. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amadou_Diallo_shooting And then of course there is the episode of the Brazilian in the London tube station who was “misidentified” ahd shot seven times in the head. At least we now know that the London ppolice a pretty good shots. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Charles_de_Menezes
The trained police can’t even get it right all the time when they pull their guns and fire. We let civilians claim that they are going to protect themselves and others with their guns. Nuts isn’t a strong enough term to describe that level of ignorance and stupidity.