Presidents and Congress, Republicans and Democrats: Spending, Taxation, Debt, and GDP
by Steve Roth, asymptosis
Cross-posted at Asymptosis.
Thanks to yeoman’s work by Larry Bartels, Mike Kimel, and a host of others, we’ve seen that over many decades, the American economy has performed far better, by almost any measure, under Democratic presidents. Larry Bartels’ key graph mapping income growth by quintile, 1948-2005 (from page 33 of Unequal Democracy) is perhaps the best demonstration of that. Even the rich get richer, faster, under Democratic presidents.
The poor and the middle class get far richer: All those findings came as a surprise to me when I first saw the data. I’d pretty much accepted the Republican “party of growth” party line, after hearing it repeated thousands of times over several decades.
It turns out that at least for American presidents, it just isn’t true. Not even close. Even though the data’s been sliced, diced, and analyzed every which way from Sunday, with consistent results, critics still try to second-guess it. Many or most of these objections are spurious — statistically illiterate, logically flawed, or just plain self-contradictory special pleading. But at least one repeated question does bear examination: What about Congress? Don’t they supposedly control the purse-strings?
Here are some questions — some of which may seem to have “obvious” answers, though we really can’t know until we look systematically:
1. Do Democrats and Republicans in the different branches deliver systematically different results in spending, revenues, and deficits (and more tenuously, second-order effects like real GDP per capita)?
2. What are those party differences? Are they large differences?
3. Do those difference themselves differ depending on whether the parties are in control of the Senate, the House, and/or the Presidency? IOW, do Dems/Pubs act differently in the House than they do in the Senate or the presidency?
4. Which branches have the greatest effects on different economic measures?
5. In which branches do Democratic and Republican results differ the most? Does that vary depending on the economic measure you’re looking at?
6. Do certain party combinations in the Senate/House/Presidency show systematically different results in spending, revenues, etc.? Is there any sign of an optimal or dystopic combination?
7. Do there seem to be systematic differences between mixed and monolithic control of the branches?
8. Directly addressing the objections mentioned above: does an analysis of congressional results undercut, disprove, or otherwise alter the conclusions from the research on presidential outcomes linked above?
To look into these questions I built a spreadsheet for the years 1961-2009, based on one built by my friend Steve, who tagged all the years for which party controlled each branch. (Thanks, Steve!) The spreadsheet (with data sources cited) is here.*
(Rdan here..to see the spreadshheet as intended, use the link. Blogger refused to translate for me)
I chose to start in ’61 not only because the period basically spans my sentient life (self-serving bias?), but because 1. it’s a reasonably long period (49 years), and 2. by then the wild economic swings following the Depression and World War II had settled down. If anyone wants to extend the period backward, it’s an easy matter to add the data from the sources cited in the spreadsheet. You can jump down to the resulting graphs, or even the summary, but some discussion is in order first.
Details
The central issue here: there are many different ways to look at this data. I’ve chosen ones that I think will give the most inclusive, comprehensive, and comprehensible insights into the questions above, revealing both the big picture and the sometimes messy, contradictory, and ambiguous results. Given the nature of the data, it simply can’t answer some of the questions above. I detail my choices here. I encourage others to use the spreadsheet to create different views — hopefully widely representative ones, eschewing intentional (or even unconscious) cherry-picking. My choices were driven by just plain curiosity about the “facts on the ground.” I had some notions of what I might find (Dems tax and spend? Pubs borrow and spend?), but given how wrong I was on presidents and economic growth, I wanted to see the numbers. I encourage others to operate from similar principles. For each year, I entered the change in spending, revenues, debt, and real GDP per capita. Then I built “lags,” so we can look at results in ensuing years. (This assuming that it takes some time to implement then see the effects of policy changes; it doesn’t happen instantly.) Here’s the upper left corner of the spreadsheet. The “change” percentages are from a simple calc: (year2-year1)/year1.
CHANGES IN:
SPENDING AS % OF GDP
year senate house president dominant congress Mix spend0 spend1 spend2 spend3
1961 D D D D DD DDD 1.51% -1.31% -0.23% -0.21%
1962 D D D D DD DDD -1.31% -0.23% -0.21% -1.54%
1963 D D D D DD DDD -0.23% -0.21% -1.54% 0.49%
1964 D D D D DD DDD -0.21% -1.54% 0.49% 2.35%
1965 D D D D DD DDD -1.54% 0.49% 2.35% 0.67%
1966 D D D D DD DDD 0.49% 2.35% 0.67% -0.39%
1967 D D D D DD DDD 2.35% 0.67% -0.39% 0.92%
1968 D D D D DD DDD 0.67% -0.39% 0.92% 0.49%
1969 D D R D DD DDR -0.39% 0.92% 0.49% -0.13%
1970 D D R D DD DDR 0.92% 0.49% -0.13% -1.58%
1971 D D R D DD DDR 0.49% -0.13% -1.58% 0.45%
As an example of lagging, the “spend1” data is simply shifted up one year, meaning that the parties controlling the Senate, House, and Presidency get “credit” (or blame) for changes that happen a year later. Ditto for the two-, three-, and four-year lags. Note that lagging by an additional year means there’s one less year (at the end) to evaluate. We can’t look at a three-year lag for 2008, for instance, because 2011 hasn’t happened yet. Since we’re averaging over a 49-year period, it’s to be hoped that loss of those later years will not corrupt the results excessively. (This gets more problematic when you start slicing up the data; more on that below.)
Since I don’t use any of the zero-year-lag results (I think for obvious reasons, mentioned above, which necessitate the use of lags in the first place), the graphs below don’t tell us anything about Obama’s results in 2009. Previous years’ regimes are analyzed based on the economic changes in 2009, but we have no lagging data on ensuing economic changes with which to analyze 2009. (If anyone wants to add projected data for 2010 and beyond, feel free. Just be sure to tell your readers.) Yes, this means that the Pub presidents get blamed for 2009, but so does the Democratic congress in ’07 and ’08. Carter gets blamed for some rocky years under Reagan in ’81 and ’82. And etc., throughout the table. This is why we need to look at multiple lags and many years; it serves to average out all the allocations that might seem “unfair” in the particular.
Another method would look at the total (summed or averaged) changes over one-, two-, three-, and four-year ensuing periods. As you’ll see in the graphs below, I chose to summarize similarly by averaging the multiple lag results. I encourage others to try the other methods. I can only display so many graphs here. As I mentioned above, the analysis gets problematic quite quickly when you start slicing the data into smaller pieces. Our short, 49-year sample quickly rears its head. Smaller, shorter slices, for instance, might only reflect where they happen to land in the business cycle. And slices concentrated at the beginning or end of the period might be distorted by long, secular trends (geopolitical, cultural, technological) that have nothing to do with party control — Matthew Arnold’s “ebb and flow of human misery.”
Here’s the number of years since ’61 for different regime combinations (Senate/House/President): RRD 6
RDR 6
RRR 6
DDD 15
DDR 16
A comparison of DDD to DDR looks like the most promising in this set of slices because they’re both lengthy and scattered through the 49-year period. Since the only difference is in presidential control, that comparison may have special applicability to the presidency question that launched this investigation, #8. The smaller slices will be much more subject to business cycles and secular trends. For instance, we’ve got three six-year, single-president slices. RDR is a single span from ’81-’86, when Volcker and Reagan, with a mixed Congress, were trying to pull us out of the biggest recession since World War II (and succeeding) and a 40-year cold war (eventually succeeding). It seems foolish to draw any grand, sweeping conclusions from that single and arguably anomalous slice. Likewise: RRD is 1995 to 2000 (Clinton), and RRR is 2001 to 2006 (Bush II) — the first a massive boom (bubble?), the other a recession and tepid recovery. Hard to make useful comparisons. DDD and DDR, by comparison, reflect sixteen- and fifteen-year slices scattered from the beginning to the end of the period. Anyone can feel free to write narratives based on comparing all these slices.
I’ve presented them in the graphs below. But with the exception of DDD and DDR comparisons, I would suggest that those spins will be statistically spurious. You’re just telling stories about single presidencies, which is exactly what we’re trying to overcome here. Here are the Senate/House combos:
DD 31
RD 6
RR 12
In those 49 years we’ve never had a Democratic Senate and Republican House. And in only six years have we had mixed Congressional control (those six Reagan years). These two facts, especially combined, make it largely impossible to throw any real light on question #7 (mixed versus monolithic control) with this analysis. DD is a large and scattered sample with both R and D presidents. RR is a single span late in the period — 1995-2006 — so it’s more subject to distortion by longer-term trends, but it’s half under Clinton, half under Bush II. RR and DD comparisons might yield insights. Larry Bartels ran into these same difficulties when trying to add the effects of the legislature to his regressions. He uses different phrasing in his explanation, which I’ll let you peruse in a footnote.* If you’re so inclined, you can also slice the data in the spreadsheet by the “dominant” party — the one controlling two out of three branches. I didn’t find much of interest there, but go to town. Again, I can only display so many graphs without it all becoming meaningless spaghetti.
The Graphs
One more bit of explanation — of the graphs themselves — is necessary here. I’ve made the assumption that parties can have a somewhat immediate effect on taxes, spending, and debt. So for those measures I’ve given the average of only the one- and two-year lags. I’ve shown all four bars, though, so you can see the numbers and, if you think it’s useful, eyeball-average them. For changes in real GDP per capita — which is a second-order effect and hence (in [my] theory at least) takes longer to appear — I’ve given the average of all four lags. You can produce any other calculations or presentations you want using the spreadsheet. The highlighted averages are generally in the vertical position indicating their values, except where I’ve had to move them to avoid obscuring information. That said, here we go.
Taxes
Revenues as a percent of GDP. This means there’s no need to correct for inflation, with the inherent uncertainties of that correction. Short story, everybody cuts taxes except Democratic presidents.
President
Democratic presidents raise taxes. Republican presidents lower them. Alert the media. (This graph shows nicely why I don’t pay much attention to three- and four-year lags for changes in revenues, spending, and debt.)
Senate
Surprise: Dem senators are tax cutters — just not as much as Pubs. For both parties, the effects are dwarfed by presidential differences.
House
Pretty much the same as the Senate, except that Dem House members cut taxes more than Republicans.
DDs and RRs are remarkably similar, with small magnitudes.
The DDD and DDR results are quite similar to the presidential results, above.
Spending
Again, as a percent of GDP so we needn’t correct for inflation. Republican presidents and Democratic senators are the big spenders, followed by Democratic house members. Democratic presidents are as frugal as Republican legislators.
President
Republican presidents raise spending significantly faster than Democrats.
Senate
Dem senators, on the other hand, increase spending something like eight times as fast as Republicans. The data reads darned consistently here, and unlike with taxation, the magnitudes are similar to presidential changes.
House
Almost the same as the Senate: Democrats increase spending faster than Republicans, and with magnitudes similar to the Senate and Presidents.
Congress
Again very similar to the Senate and House. Democrats in Congress increase spending much faster than Republicans.
Combined
DDD vs. DDR basically reflects the presidential differences.
Debt
As a percent of GDP. Somebody might want to add columns to the spreadsheet showing deficit changes, and look at it that way instead.
President
Profoundly large magnitudes and differences here, and remarkably consistent even into the three- and four-year lags.
Senate
Democratic senators, unlike presidents, increase the debt — but nowhere near as fast as Republicans. Smaller magnitudes here than with presidents.
House
Not so the House. Republican congresspeople are more frugal than their Democratic colleagues. Magnitude a bit less than the Senate, far less than presidents.
Congress
DDs and RRs are basically the same.
Combined
Real GDP per Capita
This measure is, necessarily, corrected for inflation. Changes in real personal income, a la Bartels, would arguably be a good alternative or additional measure.
Lags two and three show the parties in parity. Lags one and four create a Democratic advantage to the tune of .5% extra growth per year.
Senate
Very consistent, and very little difference between the parties. Magnitudes similar to presidents’.
House
Also fairly consistent (though the one-year lag shows party parity) and with similar magnitudes, with the Democrats associated with faster growth.
DDD and DDR again mirror presidential results, though somewhat more pronounced.
Summary
Here’s a summary of all the average changes. (Remember: revenues, spending, and debt changes are averaged over the one- and two-year lags. Real GDP per capita changes are averaged over all four lags.)
Conclusions
Here’s my narrative. You can call it spin, but I hope you’ll at least agree that it’s not contradicted by the facts as they’re analyzed here. Feel free to copy and paste these graphs (credit please), or create your own, and write your own story. 1. On revenues and spending, presidential effects appear to overwhelm congressional effects. This is not surprising when you consider the presidential drives behind Reagan and Bush II’s tax cuts and defense buildups, Johnson’s Great Society plus Vietnam, Clinton’s tax increases, etc. 2. Everyone increases spending (Republican legislators just barely) — Democrats significantly more than Republicans. 3. Only Democratic presidents have the political courage to raise taxes. (Given this, their ability to get elected at all says a lot for their popularity.) 4. Of Republicans, only House members hold the line on debt, due to tiny changes in both revenues and spending. 5. Democratic presidents are the only ones to reduce the debt — and they do so in a big way. (See #3.) 6. Overall, Democratic control is associated with greater growth in real GDP per capita. (In the Senate, Pubs and Dems are essentially the same.) To do the arithmetic for you: if Republican presidents had managed equal increases during their 28 years in power, GDP/capita would be approximately 15% higher than it is today — $53K per person per year, as opposed to $46K. And if Larry Bartels’ graph is any indication, far more of that (greater) GDP would be flowing through the hands of the middle class. That’s my story and I’m sticking to it (unless you convince me otherwise).
———————— * You’ll need to know, or learn to use, Excel’s pivot tables — which you should do in any case cause they kick ass. I’ve given brief instructions in the spreadsheet. The graphs require some slightly sophisticated hand-tuning (data sources, label displays, axes, etc.) depending on what you’re trying to show. ** From Unequal Democracy, page 34 (screen grab so I don’t have to type it in):
Steve, I have the same argument with this analysis as I do with Cactus. Why? WHy? WHY? Tell us why it happens so that we can do a better job at moderating the hills an valleys.
Which brings me to my major complaint. You and Cactus assume that fast, short term growth is better than moderate growth with shorter and less intense low periods.
If you can not explain the policies that each party has brought to bear that impacted economics, at least try to explain why the “Great Moderation” is worse than the steep ups and downs your analysis appears to prefer.
You cavil at imperical data because there is no unifying theory behind it? That is ill-considered and spurious.
It happens because policy matters. Cactus has shown that tax rates are suboptimum and have been for decades. He also did some work a long time ago controling presidential results for the composition of congress.
I talk about it here.
http://jazzbumpa.blogspot.com/2010/01/republicans-all-wrong-all-time-pt-6.html
Tax policy, in combination wih deregulation, has allowed the reallocation of wealth from the poor to the rich. The spread operates at every level of wealth and income. This is all readily available information.
The great moderation is in fact the great stagnation.
http://jazzbumpa.blogspot.com/2010/05/republicans-all-wrong-all-time-post-ww.html
GDP growth has been contracting (not coincidentally) since the Regan administration, as has the M1 money mutliplier.
None are so blind as those who will not see.
JB, sorry, if it was such a simple problem than it would be fixed post haste. Claiming it is so is ignoring all of humankind’s economic history.
Which leads to this question: Since it is a simple problem why do we need any economists to study it?
CoRev,
Cactus has stated what he beleives the policy is. Cactus stated on the thread about the 1920 recesion that the difference was due to the enforcement policies of the IRS. Under Ds they are strictor than Rs. He also impleid, but never stated, that these policies are more important than such things as the influenza epidemic (which I think is hilarious).
Mr Roth, excellent post: Now riddle me this:
Which had more effect on the US GDP growth:
The party of the President or the oil embargo of 1973?
The party of the President or the end of the Cold War and dawn of the information age in the early ’90s?
The party of the President or the combined dot-com crash and 9/11 in 1991?
And what will have more effect: The party of the President or the world-wide real-estate implosion and overwelming debt explosion of today?
Of course all of this assumes that you can compare the US & World economies of JFK with Reagan or Bush Jr. Something I also find ludicrous on its face. I’ll take Reagan over Carter every day of the year and twice on Christmas. JFK almost got us into a nuclear exchange with the Russians and with LBJ got us into out first losing war costing us 56,000 US lives, and left millions to die in South Vietnam and the rest to live in tyrrany to this day. And you guys think I should reward them becuase they had better GDP growth???? I’ll take Ike’s rather slow steady growth over the Dem led 60s every day.
A better question is and still not ever answered (though cactus has given it a head nod at times). If in 1992 Bush Sr had won the election what would our esteemed economics professors beleive the GDP growth from 1992-1996 would have been and why? If Clinton had not raised taxes would GDP growth have been greater or smaller and by how much? (Should Clinton have raised them more?)
If economics is a science this should be relatively easy to answer in 100% hindsight…but they arn’t and that’s the point.
But we get to see if Obama can even keep up with Bush Jr. According to this analysis Obama should have us back into LBJ 5+% growth here shortly….A test case if there ever was one.
But which do you think more likely: 6% U3 unemployment or 15% under Obama? My bet is still on 15%…
Islam will change
CoRev –
Sorry. I’m having some difficulty relating your comment to mine. I never said any problem was simple. But, irrespective of simplicity, it is not fixed because policy matters, and there are agendas, some of which are deeply hidden. The Republican agenda is to make the rich richer and the poor poorer. Thay are expert at it. Look at income disparity. A few years ago it passed the former extreme of 1928.
What I see as a problem, they see as a success story. But there will be hell to pay one way or another. This is the road to depression, war, and/or blood in the streets. Have you noticed an increase in boiling anger – however misguided – in certain segments of the population?
I can’t make any sense out of your last sentence. Please don’t derive from my words a conclusion that is your mental construct, but unrelated to what I said. Own your mental leap.
Cheers!
JzB
First, to point to the spending and taxation measures here, because of course we all tend to jump the GDP numbers. The spending and taxing measures are the closest to the ground, the measures that parties and politicians affect quite directly, the closest to “facts on the ground.” There’s a little bit of analysis between you and “reality,” but not much. As such I just thought it well worth having it laid out clearly. There were some surprises for me, at least.
Who knew, for instance, that Democratic legislatures, over the long term, have been associated with (slightly) lower taxes? Maybe some people did, but I didn’t, at least with any certainty, and knowing those kinds of facts helps feed my judgment in discussion, in which candidates I support, and in the voting booth.
Debt is another step removed, but still well within pretty direct control by political leaders. I think it’s useful to know the debt increases are associated with (in this order) Republican presidents, Republican senates, and Democratic houses. Not a big surprise, but some new (and pretty solid) information there to feed my judgment.
GDP is obviously way trickier, cause as I mentioned it’s a second-order effect (or third- or…?). Legislators can’t vote on GDP growth. It’s also much more subject to short-term blips and long-term trends that may overwhelm the effects of party policies.
There are enough samples in this analysis that I think it does a decent job of smoothing out the blips — oil shocks, recessions, etc. Not perfectly, of course, but still I think it’s quite useful.
The long-term trends are the problem. Viz:
CoRev: “You and Cactus assume that fast, short term growth is better than moderate growth with shorter and less intense low periods. “
I don’t *think* I was assuming that. I haven’t looked at GDP volatility or tried to correlate it with party control. (More below.)
I was trying to suss out long-term effects by looking at short-term effects over a long period. (With the small data sample — only 50 years — there’s no way to analyze long-term effects *directly.* Addressing the basic problem of economics: can’t rerun the experiment, and you would need long, long periods with well-distributed samples of systematically different policies to overcome the effects of multi-decadal trends that are *not* the result of party control.) The assumption was that faster short-term growth over the long period, averaged out, is better than slower growth.
>the “Great Moderation” is worse than the steep ups and downs your analysis appears to prefer.
Two things here post ’86 or so:
1. Inflation rates were generally lower and definitely less volatile. The Great Moderation.
2. Real GDP per capita growth was lower. I don’t know if it was less volatile. I just pulled a bar chart and tried to eyeball-average it, couldn’t really. There are various ways it could be analyzed which might yield different or similar conclusions. Only way to know is run the numbers. (The fifties do seem to look particularly volatile.)
There are two causal interpretations for the slower growth post-’86:
1. The Republicans just happened to be in power more during the later period that had slower growth (for whatever reasons), so their regimes are associated with slower growth.
2. Republican policies (which are — this data shows — systematically different from Democrats’ at least in spending, taxation, and debt), caused that slower growth.
This data/analysis cannot *by itself* help choose between them, because we’re basically comparing two lengthy periods, and we would need something like ten or twenty or more to pull correlations of any value.
Which reduces us to narratives — essentially economic models expressed in words.
But: […]
CoRev, I just remembered that I did look at GDP volatility once a while back.
“Short story, in 25 out of 30 five-year periods, the EU was more less volatile. For the 35-year period ‘71–’06, U.S. economic volatility has been 48% higher than Europe’s.”
http://www.asymptosis.com/ahh-for-european-stability.html
Follow some of the related posts if you want to get a feel for my narrative and the associated evidence.
Editing error: “…EU was less volatile…”
JB, saying this: “Sorry. I’m having some difficulty relating your comment to mine. I never said any problem was simple.“
After having said this: “Cactus has shown that tax rates are suboptimum and have been for decades. He also did some work a long time ago controling presidential results for the composition of congress.
I….Tax policy, in combination wih deregulation,“
That implied to me that you agreed with C’s insistence theat tax policy and tax enforcement ere the basic differences between the Reds and Blues, which explained the difference in economic performance.
The last sentence refers to your implication re: C’s explanation and the higher “highs” so associated.
I disbelieve C’s explanation is the best for describing the differences. I also believe that the recent moderate economic performance is superior to higher peaks and deeper valleys.
Steve, thanks for the reponse. I wish you c/would answer Buff’s questions.
One major difference in the volatility between the EU and the US is who fights the wars, and who pays for those fights. What I’m implying is that the externalites more often exceed the impacts of political party policies, UNLESS, we are in an extended period of moderate economic volatility. Otherwise, ignoring those minor externalities, wars, major competitive changes, supply shortages and weather events, etc then we are just not doing serious analysis.
Steve, I think Buff hit the right target when he above said: “If economics is a science this should be relatively easy to answer in 100% hindsight…but they arn’t and that’s the point. “
Roth
a couple of small questions:
you suggested in passing that the clinton “growth” might be “bubble.” i wonder if bubble can apply to GDP, as opposed to stock market or house prices. i don’t know the answer, so this is just a question, but as much as i don’t think GDP ought to be the god we have made it, i suspect that growth is growth.
the point about the Clinton growth that needs to be made again and again is that the republicans said it could not happen. after it happened they said he got lucky. but before it happened they said he could NOT get lucky by raising taxes.
second question. you imply that the Reagan recession could be blamed on Carter. I was there at the time. and without knowing much about economics the Carter malaise was turned very sharply into the Reagan recession after Reagan took office. i don’t know why. but my impression then was that the powers had decided the workers (hippies) needed a lesson in reality. they might have been right for all i know. but it sure looked like the result of a deliberate decision.
as for Buff. i agree that external situations matter, but after a point, he and CoRev just sound desperate not to accept the evidence that their religion is not, after all, the way the world works.
CoRev,
I am stating, baldly as a fact, that externalities always have more effect than the competancy of the IRS enforcement division. The economic effect of the 1973 Arab-Israel War and the following Oil embargo had far more economic impact than any Fed policy or IRS decisions made during Nixon’s or Ford’s watch. I would also say that Nixon’s trip to China, 1 thing, had more long term economic impact than anything & everything that Carter did during his entire 4 years. And I think Nixon was a crook.
The idea, implied by cactus in the 1920 recession thread, that everything together that the Fed/US gov did had more impact than what was going on in the world from 1919-1921 is ludicous on its face. Heck just the influenza epidemic had more of an effect, let alone the rest.
I will also throw out another obvious opinion: The post-war economy under Truman was just as different from FDR’s pre-war economy as it was differnet from the economy under Buchanon in the run-up to the civil war. Your comparisons (and cactus’s) are so apples vs. nuclear submarines as to be meaningless.
Can you (or anyone) prove that Clinton’s performance was NOT or was optimal since he did not get anywhere close to LBJs level of growth? I liked Clinton, combined with the R congress, we got a good steady growth rate and low levels of debt. The fact that it blew up in the dot-com bubble didn’t help any. And I see no where that Clinton did anything radically different than what a theoretical Bush Sr second term would have done.
You guys rail about Bush Jr. The narrative could easily have been that the markets were pricing in the coming Obama administration or that (unlike Clinton) Bush didn’t run out the clock before the bubble popped…
CoRev – that’s the problem, they can’t answer the question. Economics can’t answer those questions. Heck it can’t even answer the simple question of how much should Greece be given as a bailout. But to admit the fact that you have a lot of data points that for all practical applications are not connected in any meaningfull way doesn’t get you the big bucks…economics seems to have more connections with Astrology and Astronomy.
Islam will change
CoRev and buffpilot:
First, I kind of answered buffpilots’ questions (though not in particular), suggesting that the analysis does an okay job (way better than nothing) of averaging out shorter-term blips so the effects of presidential party control can be seen, at least dimly.
Beyond that, I’m finding it hard to answer buffpilot’s questions in what seem to me to be useful ways. I’m realizing it’s very much like the nature/nurture issue. Humans (as a species) and individual humans have particular traits/tendencies/predilections/skills/instincts, but how those emerge in individuals is dependent on environmental inputs that *the innate tendencies require in order to emerge.* They won’t emerge, or will emerge in adumbrated or distorted forms, absent a necessary quantity/quality of environmental inputs.
Likewise, the effects of (systematically different) Republican or Democratic policies are subject to the vagaries of history. Each of their effects can be more or less beneficient or pernicious depending on external circumstances unrelated to party control. Obviously. If those forces and policy efforts are pushing in the same/opposite/crosswise directions, etc. To complicate matters even further, we have the switches back and forth between the two.
An example from my narrative: Obama inheriting the fiscal situation created by eight [or thirty] years of fiscal malfeasance. Obviously Democratic policies are going to have very different effects in a massive recession than they would have in a strong expansion. Ditto Republican policies.
But *given that*, that’s why a long-term view might yield insight. I would expect systematically different policies to smooth out those swings back and forth, and result in (somewhat) systematically different results, when averaged over the long period.
I’m not clear: do you guys think that it just doesn’t matter what party’s in the presidency? If we swapped every control over the last fifty years, or gave one or the other party total control for the whole period, it would have made no difference? The economy would have just done whatever it was going to do?
>One major difference in the volatility between the EU and the US is who fights the wars, and who pays for those fights.
That might be true. I have no idea. What are the coefficients of variance on U.S. defense spending? Do high-variance periods correlate with high GDP variance periods? Another way to analyze it that removes the U.S. conundrum: look at EU15 countries, correlating variance in defense spending to variance in GDP growth.
Given its magnitude, U.S. defense spending (I think obviously) has to be a part of the puzzle. But I simply don’t know how to fit it in (multiple ways, probably) without a systematic comparative look at it — preferably several. “It obviously has to have x effect” doesn’t help me figure anything out. Too many things seem obvious that aren’t.
I’m no blinder-eyed believer in the supposed “science” of economics. But I’m even more suspicious of narratives — especially simplistic ones — based only on casual observation.
Well, Buff, it’s not either-or with exogenous and endogenous factors. They operate at the same time, and you do what you can. BTW – the debt implosion has a lot to do with irresponsible business practices enabled by deregulation. Policy matters.
Take a careful like at GDP growth under Clinton. It’s an oasis in the Bushian desert.
Your idea that science gives easy answers with 100% certainty, even in retrospect, makes me wonder where you learned about science. Think probabilistically. And your proposed test case makes no sense in view of what you say at the beginning of your post.
By the way, I also think employment growth will be slow under Obama – because, vis-a-vis LBJ, frex, he is too conservative. Already, though he has been far, far better than W.
it was Ike who got us involved in Viet Nam – Nov, i955. And it was Ike who, at Churchill’s behest, overthrew the democratically elected government in Iran, and installed the Shah. When Churchill approached Truman with this brilliant notion, Harry told him to go bag his British ass. Overall, in foreign policy, though, Dem and Rep have both continued the great arc of screwing things up. Obama, frex, is mostly following the Bush blueprint.
They hate us over there because we screw up their countries.
Take Reagan if you like, but didn’t he cut and run in Lebanon?
Cheers!
JzB
OK. You are entitled to your beliefs.
Cheers!
JzB
coberly,
What I have said all onlong is that 1) Correlation is not causation especially without even a fig-leaf of a why it occurred and so little data and 2) that events not even clase to being under control of the President have more effect or very large effect compared with than any policy of the President.
Here is a sample that I mentioned before: A Democrat President has been in office during every major war the US has been involved in for the past 100 years (WW I, WW II, Korea, Vietnam). I have a 1.0 correlation and so all right thinking people should never vote a Dem in office to avoid the US becoming involved in huge foriegn wars. If you throw in the War on Terror my correlation is now 0.8 – much better than anything cactus and Roth have for the economy. Even if we just do ‘War’s of choice’ (WW I, Korea, Vietnam and WoT) then I still run a 0.75 correlation…
So since we all understand that war is much worse than having a half-point difference in GDP growth we should all vote Republican.
See how easy that is?
(BTW, The Carter recession that Reagan inherited was cooked into the books to bring us back from the 20% inflation running rampant. Remember Carter appointed Volcker (probably his smartest decision as Pres)).
Islam will change
With respect to Buff’s query about Clinton raising taxes at the beginning of his first term, I have heard the explanation, that the tax increase served to lower interest rates across the board making the great expansion possible. To answer Buff’s other query whether it would have been better if Clinton raised taxes more, Who Knows? Just as JFK proved that cutting taxes a bit can be a good thing, Dumbya certainly proved that cutting taxes a lot is not a good thing. I think that is where Cactus comes up with suboptimum. There are sweet spots in tax rates–think goldilocks economic condidtions–and blind adherence to an ideological viewpoint on either side will only hit that sweet spot through pure dumb luck. Which is all I need by way of explanation to vote for Democrats over Republicans on economic issues.
CoRev,
“I disbelieve C’s explanation is the best for describing the differences. I also believe that the recent moderate economic performance is superior to higher peaks and deeper valleys.”
I’d much prefer faster growth and shallower valleys. If you want to blame Clinton for the 2001 recession (and I’ve noted a few times, that has more to do with Greenspan cutting back real M1 per capita severely prior to the November 2000 election – gee, I wonder why he would do such a thing), the 93 to 01 period is one such example.
I think you could say something similar about the monster growth of the 1961 to 1968 period, plus the recession that started in Dec of 69.
What gets me riled up is the support for the policies that produced lousy growth and an awful recession to boot (e.g., the oughts, the 1920s) or even mediocre growth with a bunch of recessions (e.g., the 50s, the 70s).
Steve,
Sorry, but I don’t see how you answered my questions. But I will answer yours (from the economic standpoint).
“do you guys think that it just doesn’t matter what party’s in the presidency?”
From a foriegn policy perspective yes. From a GDP perspective, mostly no.
“If we swapped every control over the last fifty years, or gave one or the other party total control for the whole period, it would have made no difference?”
Obviously no. LBJ escalted Vietnam and lost 56,000 Americans and doomed millions of Vietnamese to tyranny. Trumans fortutude in fighting Korea saved millions of South Koreans from the tyranny and disaster of North Korea (BTW what was the cost of the war in +/- GDP growth?) . Ike built the national highway system, LBJ gave us the Great Society. Carter gave us malaise and high inflation. Reagan/Bush Sr brought about the end of the Cold War with just a wimper as the evil of the Soviet empire went into the dustbin of history.
But from an economic standpoint. Nope. Wouldn’t have made a difference (or these decisions above and many other would have overwelmed the economic policies of the parties). And you and cactus have yet to make the case.
“The economy would have just done whatever it was going to do? “
Pretty much. Al Gore would have invented the internet and the 1990s tech boom would have happened reguardless who was in the Oval Office. Your argument is that I should have voted for Clinton (which I did BTW) over Bush Sr becuase the Dems would make the coming economic expansion greater than the Rs. Or that I should have voted for Gore over Bush Jr becuase the Ds would have handle the coming dot-com bubble burst and 9/11 better than the Rs. In neither case or any of the others do I see you making your point – even if we ONLY consider the economics of the decision.
cactus has at least made an effort by saying that the Ds on average take tax collection more seriously than the Rs. Thus the IRS enforcement division is the determanent of GDP growth.
A better argument for cactus would be that the Ds do a better job of leveling the playing field between large and small businesses and thus get more efficient economic outcomes thus better growth. Just you data, which could support this, is not backed by the policy positions of the Dems vs Rs to back it.
Two last things: EU diffense spending is masked by the fact that the US has underwritten Western Europe’s defense since 1945. If they actually had to defend themselves, sans America, I would expect them to seriously increase their defense spending.
Lastly, One point to support my contention that the party of the President doesn’t matter much: (US GDP growth on log paper. Note the blip around WWII – otherwise a pretty steady line)
Coberly, I was there too and my recollection is that Volker cranked up the interest rates–Because I was an excellent credit risk, my first mortgage in 1983 was a 30 year fixed at “only” 13.75%–that broke the back of inflation but at the cost of really rapid unemployment. Then Reagan cranked up the deficit spending in time to turn things around by 1984. Of course, I could have this all wrong, but that is what I remember.
Linky for the chart from my favorite illiterate blogger:
http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/archives/2010/05/the-make-believe-economy.php
buff,
“Cactus stated on the thread about the 1920 recesion that the difference was due to the enforcement policies of the IRS.”
To be clear… enforcement is the cause of the disparity in tax collections. But not of economic growth. It is, however, symptomatic of the difference in economic growth in that lack of enforcement in one area tends to be correlated with lack of enforcement in others, and the economy breaks down when the rules are relaxed. Relax the rules and you get pretty good growth for a while, and then the externalities kick in with a vengeance.
As to your influenza comment, and the Oil Embargo, etc…. all I noted there was that every President has had his cross to bear. But it cannot possibly be that over a period of 100 years, just about every major disaster that has had massive negative economic consequences has occurred while someone who cut taxes was in office. (Influenza was an exception, as I recall, but we don’t have reliable data on growth to go that far back.)
Under Ds they are strictor than Rs. He also impleid, but never stated, that these policies are more important than such things as the influenza epidemic (which I think is hilarious).
buff,
“ If you throw in the War on Terror my correlation is now 0.8 – much better than anything cactus and Roth have for the economy. Even if we just do ‘War’s of choice’ (WW I, Korea, Vietnam and WoT) then I still run a 0.75 correlation… “
Not the way I’ve done my stuff. To be consistent with what I did, divide the presidents into two groups, those under whom a big war started and those under whom one didn’t. Not so sure that the correlation works out quite as high this way. And then there’s a little matter of wars that go on forever, such as the current debacle in Iraq and Afghanistan.
And as to correlation not being causation, correct. But the claim I keep harping on is different – a complete lack of correlation is definitely no sign of causation. I started my series of posts in response to claims that Reps do better on the economy, and that tax cuts create economic growth. I have noted time and again… the data does not show this, and that’s enough to conclude Reps do not better on the economy, and that tax cuts have not created growth.
“But it cannot possibly be that over a period of 100 years, just about every major disaster that has had massive negative economic consequences has occurred while someone who cut taxes was in office.”
And yet you cannot tell me if they under or over performed when carrying their perspective cross, for either party.
And to add some snark:
“But it cannot possibly be that over a period of 100 years, every major war that has had massive negative economic, physical, cultural, and humanitarian consequences has occurred while someone who was a Democrat was in office.”
Islam will change
Steve,
Thanks for the shout-out. Interesting post. Something to remember – the theory comes after the data. Folks like you and I may not be smart enough to explain the data well, but if we can ensure enough people see what actually did happen, the person who is smart enough might end up providing that explanation.
terry,
I have the same memories…and I lived in the rust belt and it was not pretty…
Steve, I can’t speak for Buff, but I am using you as a proxy to get to Cactus and his evaluation(s). I do believe you can tell Buff and I are saying things ain’t so simple cowboy. Presidential party correlation is just that, but C has yet to show us (me) how it is causation. Because if we can make that detemination we can replicate regardless of party in power, and economics becomes something better than a modelers shell game.
What I fear is that much of you and C’s research is bias confirmation. There clearly is an affect caused by the Prez + party, but is it the one that is driving the chart or is it just that confirmation thing rearing its head?
To be clear, I beleive your charts are accurate, but they don’t tell us very much of the why, and it’s that ole WHY that is important.
Another thing:
“Obama inheriting the fiscal situation created by eight [or thirty] years of fiscal malfeasance.”
Well for the past 30 years, the Ds have held congress (i.e. own the purse) for 18 of those 30 years. And not one R President had anywhere near the overwelming advantage Obama has today. So where is my 5% GDP growth and 6% unemployment?
If we just look at the past 8 years. You will notice that the wheels started coming off after the 2006 elections when the Dems took over Congress….
If you wnat to make the case that the best situation is a centrist Dem President with an R congress I’ll be on board with that. Hopefully after November we will have at least one component of that set, even if the last time we ended up with the dot-com bust….
Islam will change
Sorry I don’t have time for lengthy replies, heading out the door.
Buffpoint, your last — with empirical support! — is definitely the strongest, IMO. I’ve spent quite a bit of time looking at the graph and similar. A couple of realizations I’ve come to:
1. It’s really hard in that picture to see what are actually quite important effects. If it goes up by an extra .5% for ten years, it doesn’t really show to the eye — just can’t see it — but it means people are 5.1% more prosperous. I think that’s significant.
2. Even if you’re right, that party presidential differences don’t affect growth in real GDP/capita (even though their policies vary a lot, systematically), what conclusion should we draw? Well we know (I think you’ll agree?) that Democratic policies result in greater dispersion of prosperity — more people share more in the accumulated prosperity. So if — contrary to common narratives but in keeping with yours — we can have that same prosperity with greater dispersion and equity, why shouldn’t we? Because human utility curves are, in fact, curved, we’d greatly increase gross national utility.
Buff:
I do not believe this is economics as much as statistics pointing a direction. The stats-bones definitely point a direction. Not so sure I would have used excel and would have preferred Minitab.
Not sure ehat you have against Carter; but, lets review some facts:
– spending went from 21.3% to 22.9% of GDP while receipts went from 18.5% to 20.2% of GDP. Subsequent Reagan years had receipts of 19.8% (1st year) and spending of 24.4% (second year) of GDP as highs. In the end receipts were 19.2% of GDP and spending was 22.1% of GDP for Reagan. Not much of a difference there.
– Private investment from 1971 to 1980 was 18.6% while from 1981 to 1990 it was 17.4%.
– Carter reduced the Capital Gains Rate from 39 to 28%.
– Carter deregulated the airlines, trucking, oil, railroads, and interest rates (actually this SCOTUS decision had a far bigger impact on interest rates and state Usury laws – Marquette Nat. Bank of Minneapolis v. First of Omaha Service Corp)
– worker producitivit grew at 1% during each presidency.
– Carter hired Volcker to slaughter the peasants for poor BUSINESS and ECONOMIC decisions the same as they are going to do in Greece (whatever happened to Sachs?) today.
Buff, your arguement might make better sense if we looked at FED Chairmen.
Terry
Now look at what you just wrote and buffpilot agreed with.
“ Volker cranked up the interest rates–Because I was an excellent credit risk, my first mortgage in 1983 was a 30 year fixed at “only” 13.75%–that broke the back of inflation but at the cost of really rapid unemployment. Then Reagan cranked up the deficit spending in time to turn things around by 1984. Of course, I could have this all wrong, but that is what I remember.”
Lets go over this real slowly. Unemployment was used as a “tool” to break inflation. That was the goal. To justify the whole concept of NAIRU.
Next, what did Reagan do to bring us out of our economic doldrums?……INCREASED DEFICIT SPENDING!!! AND what happened………………. it worked!
Interesting to note here that our conservative friends are the ones saying that economics is not a science but it is THEIR economic gurus and mouthpieces who were at the forefront of “scientification of economics”. Efficient markets hypothesis, “Laws of supply” etc etc…… all examples of trying to fit economics into a box similar to physics.
Make no mistake though, it was their ideas that have dominated and led to our current situation.
I dont think Cactus so much thinks that democrats are better than republicans at managing the economy, its just that ideas which take some power and financial control away from the upper 5% end up being able to sustain aggregate demand better than those which concentrate wealth and lead to increased indebtedness amongst the working class. It just so happens that often times it is the democrats which support those ideas. Some republicans used to but not any more. They are bought and paid for by the plutocrats.
buff
while i share your belief in the efficacy of externals, i don’t think you can use them to explain the graph that shows growth in income by percentile. the poor simply don’t do as well under republicans as under democrats. i suspect that is by design. and i suspect it has a huge effect on growth overall. the poor have a much higher marginal propensity to spend than the rich. at some point peole with “excess” money start looking for places to “invest” it. if there are no real investments going, they start to gamble with it. and that just does not promote real growth.
this is not meant as a dogmatic assertion, but as an invitation for you to examine your premises.
I think that speaks to the weakness of GDP growth as any sort of real metric of economic growth.
Using GDP alone has made the broken window fallacy a true engine for economic success. Lets just destroy everything every few years and then employ everyone to rebuild it. Keep that spending up!!
“What I fear is that much of you and C’s research is bias confirmation.”
You, of course, simply dispassionately analyze the real situation and reach INFORMED conclusions. All free of that bias stuff.
“If we just look at the past 8 years. You will notice that the wheels started coming off after the 2006 elections when the Dems took over Congress…. “
No confirmation bias here folks.
terry
this agrees with my recollection, but i am not sure if you are agreeing with me.
i never could convince myself that inflation was caused by workers refusing to take a job until they were offered more than they were worth. but once inflationary expections were built into the economy it would be hard to tell which came first. certainly not being able to find a job taught those of us who went to college with high expectations that we’d have been better off getting a job out of high school and saving our money.
buff
you narrative of history looks to me like the party line. certainly the soviet union fell of its own weight and gorby’s combination of peristroika and refusal to send in the tanks in eastern europe. whatever Reagan accomplished by “spending the Soviets into bankruptcy” was the US policy from Truman and Ike… and continues to this day as we spend another evil empire into bankruptcy.
Truman pretty much takes the blame for the post war decommissioning of the armed forces that almost allowed a north korean victory in 1950. not at all sure who takes the credit for turning around the “victory” inchon into the bloody stalemate that prolonged that war another two years.
johnson gets credit for vietnam, but listening to the tapes i keep hearing another voice behind him telling him what to do. it’s that other voice that i think runs americas foreign policy, and probably its overall economic policy.
but elections are for a reason, and your doctrine of “externals” does not seem to me to explain Roths first graph showing the enormous difference in income gains between the rich and the poor when republicans run the white house. my guess is that more money in the hands of the poor translates into more economic growth. but i definitely have never been able to see the logic of trickle down: people don’t invest when there is no demand. they gamble.
corev
since you repeat your argument, allow me to repeat mine. see my answer to buff above: account for the difference in income growth between the rich and the poor during republican presidency, and explain why that alone is not sufficient to account for lower GDP growth, Buffs log chart notwithstanding.
Greg, skepticism is a key part of science. Being able to falsify a theory is another. Bad science, CAGW, is fraught with failures on both these parts. It is also replete with studies mostly based uopon “confirmation bias.” When we have made a decision or build a hypothesis, we will actively seek things which will confirm our decision or hypothesis.
One effect of confirmation bias is the rejection of alternative data/theory as the biased person rejects all but one set supporting their hypothesis. I admitted earlier I believe in C’ and Steve’s charts, but was skeptical re: their analysis and conclusions.
So, Greg, saying this: “You, of course, simply dispassionately analyze the real situation and reach INFORMED conclusions. All free of that bias stuff.” you fail to understand the points and are just being snarky.
buff,
“And yet you cannot tell me if they under or over performed when carrying their perspective cross, for either party.”
Once again… it isn’t by party. I’ve put up the graph at least five times now. You’ve commented on most of those posts so I know you’ve seen it. If you rank the Presidents by economic growth, you have the ones who raised the tax burden on one side and those who cut the tax burden on the other. (There is one slight discrepancy… the bottom producing tax raiser was slightly outperformed by the top producing tax cutter.) And you may recall… one Democrat was among the tax burden cutters, and he sat firmly on the low performance side… with all the other tax burden cutters. That’s eighty some odd years of data, through all sorts of crap from the Depression and the Dust Bowl to 9/11.
And as to the problems that a President has had to face…. none had to face anything like FDR. None. 9/11 was a little matter compared to WW2. The Oil Embargo was a small joke compared to inheriting the Great Depression. And even if you stick to his six worst years… he still easily outperforms everyone else.
“But it cannot possibly be that over a period of 100 years, every major war that has had massive negative economic, physical, cultural, and humanitarian consequences has occurred while someone who was a Democrat was in office.”
I assume you mean started with a Democrat in office. And you are talking about WW1, WW2, Korea and Vietnam. And you’re ignoring Afghanistan and Iraq.
But I’m willing to bet that the effect on the average American today, whether he knows it or not, of, say, overthrowing Mossadegh, arming the Taliban, or keeping a few civil wars going on in Central America in the 80s are actually greater on us here in the US today than the Vietnam War or Korea are. Let’s put it this way… there is no line to trace between the Vietnam War and worrying that your plane is going to blow up… There is no line to trace between Korea and issues of illegal immigration and the drug war that will continue to affect our economy and body politic indefinitely.
Greg,
Your last paragraph more or less sums up my thinking. Externalities are dangerous and are mainly imposed by people who have the power to impose them – which generally translates to those who have money. Controlling externalities is vital, and that takes enforcement.
buff,
“Thus the IRS enforcement division is the determanent of GDP growth. “
Come on. I keep having to correct this point. I’ve corrected it upthread. Its not that difficult. My view, once again, is that enforcement affects tax revenues, and hence the surplus and the debt. But its only symptomatic of the thing that does affect real GDP growth, which is adherence to rules.
Steve, to this fiscal conservative theis comment is not intuitively obvious: “that Democratic policies result in greater dispersion of prosperity — more people share more in the accumulated prosperity.”
If you are saying Dems provide more jobs than Repubs then I would like to see those numbers. I think a conservative can say that Repubs are elected in times of economic stress and Dems are elected after those times are at end.
With two noted exceptions FDR and “O” who are showing striking similarities in the results of their corrections.
cactus,
First, still remember I don’t beleive that the Party of the President has that much effect on the economy, but given that caveot.
I think I was not clear. So I will try to be as clear as possible. My point with this comment:
“And yet you cannot tell me if they under or over performed when carrying their perspective cross, for either party.”
Is to ask you (in a specific case) if Clinton under or over performed the economy during his 8 years in office?
And you cannot answer that question. Can you answer the question: During Ike’s 8 years did he over or under perform the economy during his 8 years?
Nope
Heck can you even tell me what the economy would have been if Mondale had won in 1984 and served 8 years instead of Reagan/Bush?
In other words you can’t tell me how well any paticular President could have done if he had changed this or that Fed policy during his tenure. Economics is not mature enough to answer an even these simple questions. Even in hindsight and assuming EVERYTHING else around is fixed.
Also, you continue to try to equate the US/World economy between widely different economic realities. The US and World economy pre-WWII was incredibly different than the one Truman faced in 1948. And that was radically different from the one Reagan faced in 1980. And just 12 years later Clinton took over as the world radically changing again. Yet you tell me that I can compare all these apples, airplanes, chairs, and cement as if they were the same.
FDR took us almost 8 years to climb out of the depression, is that a good performance or a bad one? Why did he not do it in 6 years or 4?
Reagan got us out of the Carter malaise in 3 years. Was that a fast recovery or slow? If Reagan had increased taxes would the economy have grown even more? If so by how much should taxes have been raised and how greater would the GDP growth have been?
If in 2012 unemployment is still sitting at 10% and GDP is flatlined would you give Obama a successful grade or a failure? Why? It could be vary well that by 2012 Obama did a perfect economic job, every decision 100% correct even in hindsight, and still have 10% U3 and a flat GDP. Thus maximized our economic performance during his time carrying the cross. Or Obama could screw up every decision, do an abysmal economic job and get to the same place…your economics models and theory do not give me any insight to decide which would be true.
My point has always been the same – you have a nice correlation, but no attachment to any causation. If you could find a policy then it could be used by either party and you would get a Nobel in economics. I hope you succeed, but you are not there yet. And no where near making the argument that I should vote for Dems based on economic reasons. Let alone the rest.
Islam will change
Coberly, I guess I do not agree with your thought that it was to teach the workers–hippies – a lesson. I do not think Reagan gave a rat’s butt about the workers except at election time. He wanted to protect the financial interests of the moneyed class and inflation is about the only thing those folks have to worry about. As to the inflation, a lot of economists will point to LBJ’s guns and butter policies and undoubtedly the Arab oil embargoes added fuel to the fire. Carter tried to manage the economy for everybody and combined with the debacle in Iran got Reagan elected. Reagan did not set out to punish the workers–except for the air traffic controllers–he just didn’t care. At least that is my view based on my recollection
run,
Actually the idea of looking at Fed Chairmen is probably pretty good.
Carter may just be an emotional touchpoint. I was in HS during his 4 years and watched as the rust-belt got slaughtered. Lots of my friends fathers worked in the Unions in Akron – and my classmates headed off to theses jobs. And they got creamed by the Carter years. His handling of the Iran hostage situation and his malaise speech were hieghts of incompetance. His only saving grace was his selection of Volker to get things under control…
Islam will change
Greg,
You guys brought up the ‘narrative’ stuff, not me. I can fit a narrative into this data just as well as you can. I just take into account things like wars, technology change etc, that keep dropping out of you models….
BTW Steve,
I enjoy your post and cactus’s. I hope my attacks (using his/now your data) helped in a small improve his arguments and hope he sells more books. I also have learned more economics from AB than I did in all my college classes. But I still see the ‘science’ of economics has more in common with astrology than say astronomy.
Which at the biggest level is my real critique. I bet I could find sports statistics that predicts GDP growth better than the Party of the President and would have higher correlation. And just as little causation…
Islam will change
Steve,
Now a reply to what you wrote. Even if I stipulated that you were correct in your point 2. I would argue that Democratic policies continue to limit both individual liberty and economic liberty. And I value both over any half point difference in economic growth. (And yes the Rs lately have not been very good at this either). The Ds positions on a raft of items all act to limit individual freedom, the cornerstone of US prosperity. We are past the days of goons beating union guys, company towns, and dumping toxic waste into the drinking water. Now we are at the days of card check, forced buying of insurance, and don’t even get me started on cap & trade.
Bottom line their are other things to vote on other than economic growth, even if I stipulate your premise is correct (which I don’t).
Lastly for oyur point 1, a half percent increase in GDP growth over 10 years would change the slope of the curve. Excpet for the depression to just after WWII we don’t see much change.
I will repost what I wrote way above again…
Islam will change
Repost from page 1:
cactus & Steve,
First, still remember I don’t beleive that the Party of the President has that much effect on the economy, but given that caveot.
I think I was not clear. So I will try to be as clear as possible. My point with this comment:
“And yet you cannot tell me if they under or over performed when carrying their perspective cross, for either party.”
Is to ask you (in a specific case) if Clinton under or over performed the economy during his 8 years in office?
And you cannot answer that question. Can you answer the question: During Ike’s 8 years did he over or under perform the economy during his 8 years?
Nope
Heck can you even tell me what the economy would have been if Mondale had won in 1984 and served 8 years instead of Reagan/Bush?
In other words you can’t tell me how well any paticular President could have done if he had changed this or that Fed policy during his tenure. Economics is not mature enough to answer an even these simple questions. Even in hindsight and assuming EVERYTHING else around is fixed.
Also, you continue to try to equate the US/World economy between widely different economic realities. The US and World economy pre-WWII was incredibly different than the one Truman faced in 1948. And that was radically different from the one Reagan faced in 1980. And just 12 years later Clinton took over as the world radically changing again. Yet you tell me that I can compare all these apples, airplanes, chairs, and cement as if they were the same.
FDR took us almost 8 years to climb out of the depression, is that a good performance or a bad one? Why did he not do it in 6 years or 4?
Reagan got us out of the Carter malaise in 3 years. Was that a fast recovery or slow? If Reagan had increased taxes would the economy have grown even more? If so by how much should taxes have been raised and how greater would the GDP growth have been?
If in 2012 unemployment is still sitting at 10% and GDP is flatlined would you give Obama a successful grade or a failure? Why? It could be vary well that by 2012 Obama did a perfect economic job, every decision 100% correct even in hindsight, and still have 10% U3 and a flat GDP. Thus maximized our economic performance during his time carrying the cross. Or Obama could screw up every decision, do an abysmal economic job and get to the same place…your economics models and theory do not give me any insight to decide which would be true. (Even in hindsight)
My point has always been the same – you have a nice correlation, but no attachment to any causation. If you could find a policy then it could be used by either party and you would get a Nobel in economics. I hope you succeed, but you are not there yet. And no where near making the argument that I should vote for Dems based on economic reasons. Let alone the rest.
Islam will change
Hi Buffpilot.
Does this increased participation mean you are retired and have more time?? (63?) Welcome aboard…way classier than he who is gone.
No,
Work coming in ebbs and flows these days. Sometimes overwelming, others not so much. On a low spot prepping for next project. Planning done. Bids out. Basically coordinating with people and waiting for the inflow to come back.
This nicely correlated (without causing!) with threads I can discuss with at least a minimum of logic.
Plus I’m reading the book “It’s different this time.” which I’m finding fascinating since I can actually understand what they are talking about. Thanks for the education rdan!
Islam will change
terry
fair enough. i would defer to greg’s formulation: the way to beat inflation was high unemployment. says the same thing without the pretty picture. back to the original question… it was definitely a “decision” and it came “suddenly” after the election.
buff
we agree about that.
i am not so in love with GDP growth myself. but cactus only set out to show that gdp growth was “not better” during republican administrations, which is counter to the prevailing conventional wisdom. no need to go any further than that.
meanwhile, while you have your eye on the dems stealing our liberties, your friends in the other party have got their hands in your pocket, and i don’t thnk it’s your wallet they are feeling for.
co rev
go look at the first graph in the post. if that is true data, then you can “see those numbers.”
your next paragraph doesn’t look like any history i ever read. FDR being not just an “exception” but the defining moment in history that shapes the whole “debate.”
buff
heck, if you have time to read i am going to tout a book i have not yet read myself: michael lewis on the folks who bet against the recent market shenanigans and made lots of money. i’d give you the link or at lest the title, but i am having such a hard time loading Angry Bear that i’d never get back.
you could look it up on bbc.co.uk/programmes/p007dvhr#related-links
this would tell you something about one of those “externals” that may or may not be linked to party in power. my guess is that the distinction between parties is being erased as we speak.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Lewis_(author)
Thanks dan
what appealed to me about the bbc interview was that Lewis described a “near asperger” person who ignored the people and looked at the numbers. he made a lot of money and people hated him. but the culture of Washington and Wall St he describes is exactly what is going on with the great obama deficit commission. I wish there was a way to make money by shorting the deficit commission.
No I completely understand the points and AM STILL being snarky. You like to come off as some sort of reasonable arbiter amongst all these raging liberals but all I ever see you spout is the conservative party line. Thats fine you can believe what you want on whatever preponderance or lack of evidence you find. You however are NOT in a position to warn someone else about confirmation bias, you are guilty of it in SPADES.
I will point out though that confirmation bias does not prove the conclusion false. Someone can be guilty of bad science and still be correct. Plenty of things were true (and were noted to be true by someone) long before they were PROVEN to be so. I’m not trying to negate the value of the scientific method, I trust in it daily, but it is far from full proof. Nor should we let a lack of scientific proof ALWAYS deter us from doing things that have a lot good reasons for doing them.
Hey all, finally managed to get back to this. Catching up…
terry
>There are sweet spots in tax rates–think goldilocks economic condidtions–and blind adherence to an ideological viewpoint on either side will only hit that sweet spot through pure dumb luck. Which is all I need by way of explanation to vote for Democrats over Republicans on economic issues.
What terry said. We’ve been teetering on the bottom brink of necessary government (taxes, spending, regulation), increasingly so, for decades. While the financial system expanded massively — not government as predicted by libertarian narratives. My narrative: that imbalance caused the current problems. There’s the “why,” in one sentence that you can find flesh and evidence for on my blog.
cactus
>Relax the rules and you get pretty good growth for a while, and then the externalities kick in with a vengeance.
Said another way, and well.
buffpilot
>Is to ask you (in a specific case) if Clinton under or over performed the economy during his 8 years in office?
>And you cannot answer that question. Can you answer the question: During Ike’s 8 years did he over or under perform the economy during his 8 years?
>Nope
Dems overall were above trend. Pubs overall were below trend. That’s an answer. Probabalistic, not anecdotal or narratively counterfactual. It could be just chance. Only way to determine that is to write causal narratives (again: economic models expressed in words) and test them against history.
>In other words you can’t tell me how well any paticular President could have done
I can’t tell you if a particular smoker will get lung cancer, or if so when (single-instance, anecdotal). Nor can I say when he/she would have died otherwise, or of what (counterfactual). That’s a specious argument, unconvincing. I think you should drop it.
>you have a nice correlation, but no attachment to any causation.
The “why” has been hashed through quite thoroughly, it seems to me, including above and below in this comment.
It’s true that nobody has delivered a perfectly predictive economic model to support their narrative — here or anywhere else. That fact does not invalidate a narrative — any narrative. Specious argument, unconvincing. I think you should drop it.
coberly
>buff
>while i share your belief in the efficacy of externals, i don’t think you can use them to explain the graph that shows growth in income by percentile. the poor simply don’t do as well under republicans as under democrats. i suspect that is by design. and i suspect it has a huge effect on growth overall. the poor have a much higher marginal propensity to spend than the rich.
Agreed, I don’t hear you guys responding to this. I find it an incredibly compelling piece of evidence.
coberly
>you suggested in passing that the clinton “growth” might be “bubble.” i wonder if bubble can apply to GDP, as opposed to stock market or house prices.
We saw a bubble increase in “wealth” during Clinton’s years, which undoubtedly improved spending and got the whole log rolling faster. Same as the bubble “wealth” of the housing boom, and the spending fueled by home-equity extraction. Not saying anything more than that.
>second question. you imply that the Reagan recession could be blamed on Carter.
Not at all. Only said that when you do the lag-shifting, Carter gets credit/blame for performance in the first Reagan years. Purely a technical statement/example re: the analysis methodology.
buffpilot:
>Here is a sample that I mentioned before: A Democrat President has been in office during every major war the US has been involved in for the past 100 years (WW I, WW II, Korea, Vietnam). I have a 1.0 […]
…continued:
CoRev:
>What I fear is that much of you and C’s research is bias confirmation.
A very understandable concern. Humans are so useless that way. (I can only say that it wasn’t a *very* intelligent designer…) I can assert this: when I went at this analysis I was driven by curiousity. Yeah, I certainly hoped it would support my views (humans are that way), but I shaped the analysis, I think, to best answer (given the data set at hand) my curiosity, not my convictions. I didn’t go back and do a different analysis, for instance, after pulling the first one and finding it disappointing. The closest I could get to “just the facts, ma’am,” constantly querying and questioning my intentions and biases. To the best of my meager ability.
Likewise years ago when I wondered, “does smaller government yield faster growth?” I fully expected that I’d find the answer to be yes. I’d been hearing it for so long. But I was curious whether those beliefs were actually true or false; I really didn’t know. Went and pulled government size and growth data for prosperous countries, correlated it a bunch of different ways, slicing, comparing, evaluating, reading the dozens of researchers who have gone at it systematically (plus meta-analysies of those studies)…found out it isn’t true.
That experience, for me, was to some extent at least the opposite of confirmation bias — it contradicted what I (vaguely) believed — though it admittedly did support what I was hoping to believe…
buffpilot
>If you wnat to make the case that the best situation is a centrist Dem President with an R congress I’ll be on board with that.
I would agree with that if things hadn’t gotten so wildly out of balance (government/real economy/finance sector, rich versus poor/middle class) over the last thirty, especially eight W, years. We need Dem-style policy shifts in a big way to restore that balance. Unfortunately Pubs and the finance sector have looted the treasury, making that difficult or maybe impossible or perhaps even counterproductive, short- to medium term.
buffpilot:
>You guys brought up the ‘narrative’ stuff, not me. I can fit a narrative into this data just as well as you can.
But you’re doing the narrative thing, just as we are, right? I don’t think you disagree with that. The question is: are there facts on the ground that contradict and/or disprove the narrative/model? (lack of or opposite-sign correlations, predictions that follow inevitably from the narrative that aren’t demonstrated by history, etc.)
buffpilot:
>I would argue that Democratic policies continue to limit both individual liberty and economic liberty.
I’ll just restate my schpiel from the past, what I call The Libertarian Fallacy:
That restrictions on liberty only result from government. That the emergent properties of a system — even a system with no laws or rules of any kind — don’t inevitably impose coercion on individuals. (Not arguing against free trade here, just an example:) If a country had unrestricted free trade with other countries, it could result in certain industries in certain places dying. This coerces individuals to move elsewhere, perhaps away from friends, family and all their connections, perhaps going back generations. Economic coercion is very real. (Yes it’s ulimately enforced by state force of arms — eviction or repossession — but 1. that’s confusing ultimate with proximate cause, and 2. I don’t think many libertarians will argue against the enforcement of property rights.)
If the poor and middle class are more prosperous, they arguably have more liberty and are less subject to coercion (from whatever sources). So pooh-poohing prosperity growth and distribution, vis a vis liberty, is I think poor […]
“that keep dropping out of you models.”
I dont HAVE any models.
Its about ideas not people. Any idea which takes buying power away from the majority of citizens and leaves them needing debt to consume at the level they are used to is going to blow up. This is one of the major “ideas” since the Reagan revolution and it has been embraced by people with many different letters after their name R,D, I and L. It just so happens that in todays political environment NO ONE with an R after their name will question the sanity of that idea.
Do you have an argument with the summation of the last 30 yrs presented above? Ill do it in a different way. The toxic ideas;
1) Lower taxes on the “producers” in society
2) Financialize everything. Make everything for sale and generate market for them.
3) Put labor in its place. Labor is a cost to be contained in order to control inflation
4) Make credit easy. Since the incomes dont keep up give the people access to credit so the can consume. Businesses will sprout up form the new easy credit as well.
5) Get everyone in a 401k and a new house so the FIRE sector can expand to nearly 40% of ALL the profits in the US
6) OOOOOOOOOPS ……………..it fall down go BOOM
now I’m sure some of you will point out govts role in this and you would be correct. In fact its govts role in SUPPORTING the financial sectors’ desires to chase this IDEA. This could not have been done alone by the FIRE sector, there is no doubt about that, but what toxic ideas drove this and from where did they emerge? I’ll simply suggest that these ideas did not come from the FAR LEFT. In fact they came from nowhere on the left side of the spectrum. The spectrum which has complete govt control (command economy) on the left side and complete private control on the right side.
buff:
He was one of the first to discuss energy and he installed cells to harness the sun at the Capital. He is a weird duck; but sometimes, this is what we need to usher in the needed new things.
We did muff the Iran expedition and lusting in your heart is always memorable.
Steve,
Thanks for replying and for Rdan sake I will rein in my sarcasm as best I can. Since I’m limited in time I’ll just reply to three comments:
1)
“I can’t tell you if a particular smoker will get lung cancer, or if so when (single-instance, anecdotal). Nor can I say when he/she would have died otherwise, or of what (counterfactual)”
I agree! And thus you cannot tell me that I should have voted for Bush Sr over Clinton in 1992 by economic analysis even in hindsight. Becuase you only have single-instance data. That’s my point with cactus about his 1-D analysis. You hand wave away the point that you have no way to predict which President would have done better 1992-1996 or even if Clinton had, for example, raised taxes another 5% he could have obtained LBJ levels of growth. You have a narrative that supports the Dems and fits the data. I have, on more than one occaision, wrote narratives that do the same for the Reps and fit the data. Whoopie!
Hand waving the critical fact that you can’t tell, from your data, which President would be better belies the idea to vote D. I’ll take less wars over GDP growth every day.(better correlation). From that standpoint I should always vote R. Your data doesn’t back your claim.
And the fact that everyone seems to hand-wave external effects as marginal is hilarious. How much of our GDP growth was effected by the 1973 Oil Shock vs Nixon/Ford’s policies?? Oh that’s right, you have no idea, so I’ll say the R’s max performed the economy then given the cross the had to bear…so vote R…what have you to disagree?
2)
“The “why” has been hashed through quite thoroughly, it seems to me, including above and below in this comment.”
??? Try writing the policy(ies), followed by every Dem President from FDR to Clinton (skip Obama he’s too new), that resulted in higher GDP growth vs. what the predicted R policy would have been during the same time period or contrarily what policies followed by every R President from Ike to Bush Jr that caused lower GDP growth. If you can prove your point, there is a trip to Stockholm in your future. And we can then have both parties run that policy to maximize economic growth. Right now I beleive we can all agree to double the size of the IRS enforcement division….
The why as never been hased out throughly, or at all. cactus has made a swing with his idea that stricter IRS enforcement leads to better revenue intake and thus lower debt (in short the IRS enforcement division is the key). coberly and You (I beleive) think more money in the hands of the poor is the key. Gerg beleives we should all be Keynesians. So maybe you can take a crack at it.
2b) “It’s true that nobody has delivered a perfectly predictive economic model to support their narrative — here or anywhere else. That fact does not invalidate a narrative — any narrative.”
Great I can put together a narrative to vote for the Rs, using your data, that is just a valid as yours. But I am glad that you admit to not having any kind of economic model that works. Another of my points. Economics as Astrology.
3)”Likewise years ago when I wondered, “does smaller government yield faster growth?” “
Actually don’t care about the growth answer. I do know that smaller government yields increased individual and economic liberty. Your argument for economic coercion is to quote, a “Specious argument, unconvincing. I think you should drop it.” Microsoft or AGM are not going to take my freedom away. Big Government will and there are many Dem policies that are being proposed to do just that. (With the caveot that the Rs have not been much better lately). Or have you missed card-check, Holders action for the past year, and the latest about stripping […]
Following World War I in the 1920s they cut taxes and the economy Boomed. Herbert Hoover and then Roosevelt increased taxes and we lost a decade.
Eisenhower valued high taxes to reduce the defecit, he had three recessions.
Kennedy & Johnson cut taxes and the economy boomed again in the 1960s. On the way out Johnson enacted a surtax, handed it to Nixon, and Nixon had the next recession.
Reagan inherited massive inflation from carter which he beat by putting the country into recession that then cut taxes leading to a long recovery.
George W. Bush increased taxes and put us back into recession.
Clinton increased taxes and but rescued by internet revolution that succeeded despite his higher taxes. And He never really went back to the pre-Reagan bad old days.
George W. Bush inherited an economy headed into recession and like Reagan cut taxes leaded to economic growth for most of the past 8 years.
So what’s Obama to do. On raising taxes the closest parallel I can see to the situation he’s in is to Herbert Hoover. So is Obama going to be a Hoover and raise taxes and lose another decade?
You bring up some very good and important points buff. One cannot ever go back and say with certainty that the economic performance during a presidents term would have been this way if such and such were done. Again I think it all comes down to ideas;
Is the idea that capital needs to be preserved over labor a good one?
Is the idea that inflation from wages is worse than protracted unemployment a good one?
Is the idea of a direct job creation program a bad one?
Is the idea that people should be able to buy insurance on their debt greater than the amount of their debt a good one?
Is the idea that the stock price of a company should be preserved at the expense of jobs a good one?
These are just a few but I think EVERY republican politician today would answer yes to all of them (and probably quite a few democrats as well). So I cannot support republicans because they simply do not view the working class as important as capital or asset values. They are married to Greenspans notion that rising asset values are the sign of a strong economy (until of course….they arent). The economy will not recover until we have a working class that is able to consume without going into excessive debt. The republicans are squawking about public debt levels (and some democrats too ) which are simply the other side of the coin of PRIVATE savings levels.
There is no NET increase in PRIVATE savings levels unless the govt sector is going into debt. It cannot happen any other way. There is a reason why the level of national debt and dollar denominated savings around the world have been the exact same for as long as theyve been measuring them…….. they are two sides to the same coin!
That is a correlation and causation that CANNOT be denied.
Its not a strange coincidence that those two numbers are the same level, one with a minus sign and one with a plus sign. So anyone pushing to lower the debt or deficit is IN FACT pushing for US, the average Joe, to give up some of our financial accumulations.
I’m certainly disappointed that few of our democrat friends understand this but I KNOW there are republican friends who understand this (Art Laffer and Dick Cheney to name two) who for pure political reasons LIE to us about the gravity of these numbers.
I dont “support” democrats as much as I reject modern American conservatism.
I’d support a third party candidate in a heartbeat but not one that comes from the anti intellectual paleoconservative wing of the republican party (aka the Tea party)
Following World War I in the 1920s they cut taxes and the economy Boomed. Herbert Hoover and then Roosevelt increased taxes and we lost a decade.
Eisenhower valued high taxes to reduce the defecit, he had three recessions.
Kennedy & Johnson cut taxes and the economy boomed again in the 1960s. On the way out Johnson enacted a surtax, handed it to Nixon, and Nixon had the next recession.
Reagan inherited massive inflation from carter which he beat by putting the country into recession that then cut taxes leading to a long recovery.
George W. Bush increased taxes and put us back into recession.
Clinton increased taxes and but was rescued by the internet revolution that allowd for economic growth despite his higher taxes. And He never really went back to the pre-Reagan bad old days.
George W. Bush inherited an economy headed into recession and like Reagan cut taxes leading to economic growth for most of the past 8 years.
So what’s Obama to do? On raising taxes the closest parallel I can see to the situation he’s in is to Herbert Hoover. So is Obama going to be the next Hoover and raise taxes so we lose another decade?
buffpilot
>And thus you cannot tell me that I should have voted for Bush Sr over Clinton in 1992 by economic analysis even in hindsight.
Yes, obviously and of course. But you can say “In general, vote for politicians who will institute Democratic policies, because over the long term, best as we can tell, they deliver the best results for everyone.”
>Becuase you only have single-instance data.
Huh?? There is no other kind of data, is there? (Well, analog waveforms analyzed using calculus, but please spare me that logical red herring. Please…) Sampling, all that? “The singular of ‘data’ is ‘anecdote'”?
>You have a narrative that supports the Dems and fits the data. I have, on more than one occaision, wrote narratives that do the same for the Reps and fit the data. Whoopie!
“fits the data.” Please see my much more precise wording. My impression is that your narrative is supported by selected short-term anecdotes (and contradicted by others), but is pretty resoundingly contradicted by various analyses of various aggregate long-term data. Given humans’ inherent predelictions for biased selection (of anecdotes), I know which one I trust.
>Your data doesn’t back your claim.
Again, see precise wording. Science is the art of the disprovable. (You’ve read Popper, right?) I don’t see that the aggregate data contradicts my narrative. It does contradict yours.
>everyone seems to hand-wave external effects as marginal is hilarious
Straw man. Nobody has said that. Specious argument, fallacy of the extremes, I think you should stop using it. The argument is that with a large enough sample those “random” or “woulda-happened-anyway” externalities get smoothed/averaged out, and we can get some insights into the overall long-term effects. This not nutty — pretty standard statistical thinking.
>Right now I beleive we can all agree to double the size of the IRS enforcement division….
Hot damn. You betcha. It really drives me crazy to hear small-government evangelists defending tax liars and cheaters and offshore evaders. You hear it a lot. Sheesh. (Yeah, we should have huge tax reform; but people should have to pay their taxes.)
>You (I beleive) think more money in the hands of the poor is the key.
*Far* more so (odd that this went by your radar): the middle class. That’s the huge bulge in the bell curve where the real leverage is on the overall economy. Progressives are constantly going on about this, then being accused of caring about welfare queens. You just (kinda) did that.
Do you believe that policy choices can affect the balance of the economy — through whom the prosperity passes? I do, and I think the Dems balance it better, resulting in greater overall prosperity. (And *far* greater overall utility.)
>Great I can put together a narrative to vote for the Rs, using your data, that is just a valid as yours.
Again: “just as valid.” Precise wording please. Given that, have at it babe! Key validity test: opposite correlations to those predicted by the narrative would disprove it. Not true of my narrative and the data sets/analyses we’ve discussed here.
When are you going to reply to the Bartels graph?
>But I am glad that you admit to not having any kind of economic model that works.
“any kind of economic model” Either you’re not reading carefully or you’re distorting.
I sed:
“a perfectly predictive economic model”
Do you […]
Greg:
>There is no NET increase in PRIVATE savings levels unless the govt sector is going into debt. It cannot happen any other way. There is a reason why the level of national debt and dollar denominated savings around the world have been the exact same for as long as theyve been measuring them…….. they are two sides to the same coin!
I generally agree with your other points, but this doesn’t seem right. It’s the whole point of economic growth, isn’t it? As our economy has gotten larger private savings have increased. Yes there’s the two-sides fact, but the whole pie does keep getting bigger. Am I misunderstanding? I’m really not sure.
Yes the Democrats are pretty good Ponziers maybe even better than the Republicans
Congratulations!
We will al be sipping drinks by the jacuzzi after Obama gets done with the greatest Ponzi ever.
I cant wait
“Microsoft or AGM are not going to take my freedom away”
Oh Reeeeeeeealllly!!? And you know that how?
Maybe not now but ONE of the reasons is the size of our govt.
I’ll bet if they were given the chance they would protect their interests over YOUR freedom.
“As our economy has gotten larger private savings have increased. Yes there’s the two-sides fact, but the whole pie does keep getting bigger. Am I misunderstanding? I’m really not sure.”
Yes and the “deficit” is simply the description of it from the point of view of the currency issuer. When the govt calls it a deficit we should refer to it as a surplus because we are on the other side of the govt. Think of it like a bank balance sheet. When they loan money it is a negative number on their ledger and a positive number on yours. Same with the govt deficit. One huge difference though, the govt will never call the “loan” in.
The pie only grows as long as the deficit or debt is increasing. When it is decreasing our pie is shrinking. Its not rocket science its accounting 101. New money comes from one place and its not banks. Their debt money is always offset so there is no NET increase in funds. If we stop govt spending we will shrink the pie by the amount we tax until the pie disappears.
Deficit terrorists are not looking out for your well being. They are looking out for the well being of bond traders.
Greg,
I’ll try to answer:
Is the idea that capital needs to be preserved over labor a good one?
Depends. Sometimes yes, sometimes no.
Is the idea that inflation from wages is worse than protracted unemployment a good one?
I always thought, and this could be naive, that 2-3% inflation was overall good for both the economy in general and employment in paticular. Carter year inflation levels (or worse) are just plain bad for all. High inflation is worse than protarcted unemployment.
Is the idea of a direct job creation program a bad one?
If you mean direct Government job creation – yes. Paying people to dig up and then fill in holes is a waste. It basically workfare, which we have discussed elsewhere.
Is the idea that people should be able to buy insurance on their debt greater than the amount of their debt a good one?
Greg, I’m don’t understand this question and hesitate to try to guess. So I have to punt here…
Is the idea that the stock price of a company should be preserved at the expense of jobs a good one?
I’m not sure how you make the trade-off here but I asume you implying that companies should continue employment of unproductive or no longer required people. If I no longer make buggy whips I shouldn’t have to keep the buggy whip maker on the payroll. Given that, I think there is plenty of room for re-training both in the companies and in co-operation with Government. I have yet to see (personally) a company jettison a good employee if all that was needed was re-training into a new in-demand job (make my buggy whip maker into making windshield wipers). Stock Price is a reflection of what the OWNERS of the company want. They own the place if they want to keep stock prices up its their decision. I reject the idea that becuase I hire an employee to help me at my Lemonade stand that the employee suddenly owns part of the Lemondade stand.
As for the debt issue. Sorry I really, really have little simpathey for people who get themselves into massive debt over luxeries or trying to keep up with the Jones who make twice your salery. I spent too many years watching Air Force enlisted make it on less pay than than some families spend on Starbucks in a year. You don’t need a European vacation, or an XBox, or a cell phone, etc, etc. The list of things that people think are basics when in reality they are luxeries gets longer every year. Flyover country has no sympathey for people who hit Starbucks daily then complain when they have trouble covering their $800K, 4000 sq ft house with a pool and granite. And if you want to live in Manhatten or San Francisco either make the money or live in a hovel, but its your choice to live there so stop whining.
Anyway, I agree I wish we had a third party – preferably with no leader from any Ivy league school. I only support the Rs becuase the big-government nanny-state Ds are far more a threat to individual freedom than the Rs (overall). But the last 10 years of bi-partisan increases in the Government have not filled me with confidence. Also the incredible hypocrasy of the left and Dems on the War and their blindingly stupid PC approach to things and the increasing assualt of freedom of speech make supporting them unthinkable. YMMV
Islam will change
Greg,
Last I checked Microsoft or ADM can’t send in a SWAT team and put me in cuffs….
I can live my life without ever interacting with Microsoft if I want. I can’t say the same about the IRS….
Islam will change
You meant Phonzi?
Buff –
What a huge straw man. Neither WWI nor WWII was caused by the American President. These are externalities that originated in Europe. The identity of the president here is totally irrelevant, and you know it. Unless you are seriously proposing that a Pug Pres would have kept us out of those wars.
As I pointed out a couple of days ago, Ike got us into Viet Nam in 1955.
Your Democrat = warmonger assertion is barnyard excrement.
And your “not a fig-leaf of why” comment ignores what had been discussed here at some length – namely taxation. Policy matters. Dem and Pug policies on taxation are substantially different. Until Carter, policies on regulation were substantially different. I’ll posit there is still some difference, but it has shriveled along with GDP growth and the M1 multiplier during the great stagnation.
Also, GDP growth was better and more consistent during the moribund Clnton years than it was during Nixon-Ford or Reagan’s first term. So if you want steadiness and consistency, you should prefer Carter to the Pugs who surrounded him.
Cheers!
JzB
On long-term GDP growth, policy effects, and predictive falsification:
http://www.asymptosis.com/one-thousand-words-on-prosperity-growth.html
http://economistsview.typepad.com/economistsview/2010/05/feldstein-extend-the-bush-tax-cutsfor-now.html
I suggest this link to Mark Thoma on Feldstein. Republicans are stuck in a political position with tax cuts only for the wealthy who, I think, do not add proportionally to aggregate demand nor, with $1,5 trillion in cash and equivalents, are spending now except pursuing financial product.
Such a straight jacket makes for bad policy.
Steve,
Once again I am obviously not communicating clearly. From th efirst part of you post:
>And thus you cannot tell me that I should have voted for Bush Sr over Clinton in 1992 by economic analysis even in hindsight. (quoting me)”
Steve replies “Yes, obviously and of course. But you can say “In general, vote for politicians who will institute Democratic policies, because over the long term, best as we can tell, they deliver the best results for everyone.”
Steve the problem is you have (and neither has cactus) never proven that statement. Nor ever answered to me what these policies are that always generate the best results for everyone.
Mostly becuase you have never gotten anywhere with the ‘best as we can tell” part of your sentance. A simple example: Which scenario would have resulted in the greatest economic growth during the dawning of the information age 1992-1996:
1) Clinton policies has they happened (baseline)
2) Bush Sr policies in a theoretical 2nd term
3) Clinton policies but he increases the tax rate by another say 10%
4) The Fed Chairman lowers the Fed funds rate to 1% (but otherwise as the baseline)
But you and your narrative can’t answer that question. Nor can our in its infancy science of economics.
So I don’t know if Clinton, even assuming he has this level of control, did a good job or not. Now I think most of us enjoyed the growth during that time. I lived in Europe during the bulk of the time and life seemed to be chugging along fairly well. Great.
But what your asking is that I assume that during that time that the baseline was the best we could do and if we had had a second Bush Sr term that the growth would have been less. And you can’t make that jump with the data you have laid out.
And that works the opposite also. I can’t say the Bush Sr max performed the economy 1988-1992 vs. a theoretical Dukakis Presidency.
I will agree that the meme that the Rs are better for business is baseless. But so is the the idea that the Ds are better for business. Or GDP growth. or Unemployment.
All you have is a string of anadotes that fits your data and says vote ‘D’. I have on many times as has CoRev provided a similar narratives that also fits your data and says vote ‘R’.
Bottom line is no where have you been able to prove that, for example, that Ike did or did not max perform the economy during his tenure. And if he did not, that he could have done better if he had inacted policy X, Y, or Z and gotten 5% GDP growth instead of what he got.
You can’t even tell me that LBJs blistering 5.4% growth did/did not lead to a overheated economy leading to the crash and malaise of the ’70s. You cannot point to decisions and policy that LBJ enacted, that could be enacted today, that led to that growth. But I can say that his decisions led to the deployment of 500,000 US troops to Vietnam and the loss of 56,000 Americans.
And ALL that assumes that the President has that much effect on the economy which I reject from the start.
Islam will change
Steve as I replied to Greg up thread…
Last I checked Microsoft or ADM can’t send in a SWAT team and put me in cuffs….
I can live my life without ever interacting with Microsoft if I want. I can’t say the same about the IRS….or even the local zoning board…
Islam will change
Buff
let me see if i can make a dent in this.
you talk about “carter inflation.” have you forgotten about “nixon inflation”? some might even think of it as johnson inflation (guns AND butter). but let us try to pay attention to the actual facts and not the partisan spin.
the government does not pay people to dig holes and fill them in. again, let us look at the actual facts and not the Paul Harvey narrative. btw I got my government job under the Reagan administration.
glad you noticed the role of government in retraining obsolete workers. you don’t get the corporation apologists admitting that they depend entirely on the jr colleges to pre-train and retrain their workers. not to mention the “real” colleges doing ALL of the serious education and screening so the corporations don’t have to do it themselves. but can complain about taxes as if taxes had nothing to do with education and roads and keeping their competitors honest.
you and i agree about debts among both the poor and the rich. but the poor have an excuse for being stupid. meanwhile we have an economy that runs on debt until it doesn’t.
as for the pc army, again i agree with you. but if liberals have their stupid set, can we say it’s only fair? keeping up with the Rush set?
people are people, which isn’t much. thinking in terms of political slogans won’t get you far.
but i tend to agree that the next step for Cactus et al is to follow their own lead and try to identify the causes for the correlation they see. this is not the same a denying that the correlation has any valu, which, it sounds like, you are trying desperately to do.
btw, a real statistician might correct me, but the “small data set” you refer to is not so small. if it were only a claim that “on average” D’s do better than R’s, you might have a point. But when you look at ten cases and each case comes up heads, you are talking about a thousand to one odds against that being pure chance.
and watch out for those R’s protecting your liberties. they don’t give a damn about your liberties. they are talking liberty as a cover for protecting their advantages. they can rely on the two year old in all of us to resent “regulation” as well as taxes, and a few anecdotes of alleged government overreach will replace connected thought in enough of the people enough of the time.
and all that does is stretch the rubber band so when the jacobins get back into power there will indeed be excesses.
coberly,
Abut the inflation, yep agreed. The 1973 Oil shock had far more to do with our growth than Nixon, Ford or Carter….and one of my points
Both sides have their idiots. Agreed. But the right wingnuts tend to leave me alone more than the left wingnuts, but YMMV.
I have nver said their was no correlation. Never argued once with the data. My argument is to go from the data as presented to sweeping generalizations with no connections between the too (other than a ‘narrative’)
Lastly: I am a stats guy so this jumped at me:
“btw, a real statistician might correct me, but the “small data set” you refer to is not so small. if it were only a claim that “on average” D’s do better than R’s, you might have a point. But when you look at ten cases and each case comes up heads, you are talking about a thousand to one odds against that being pure chance. “
I agree with you stats point, but the problem is we can’t determine if the coin came up heads or tails….another one of my points.
And if cactus can find a reall policy that can always lead to better outcomes he’s on his way for a Nobel. But we are not there yet.
I would address the Gov jobs issue but that goes into a totally seperate subject of welfare vs. workfare vs actual government required jobs. I think that goes off topic.
But Obama is a perfect test case for cactus’s thesis…
Islam will change
Again, yours is an invalid construct. Part of the reason…. “Microsoft or ADM can’t send in a SWAT team and put me in cuffs…. ” ….. is true is because we have a government that defends their property rights for them.
Are you suggesting that NO ONE should have the power to put you in cuffs?
When was the last time a SWAT team came and put you in cuffs btw? Or anyone you know.
Take the govt away (or shrink it to fit in a thimble) and you’ll find private security being ramped up. Allow antitrust laws to go the way of the edsel and a Microsoft type company might control everyhting to do with computers ( they might do it now with the HELP of big govt which they’ve bought and paid for)
You try to scare us with the boogeyman of big govt but how many people have been jailed by the IRS vs how many have been screwed over by private companies (oil companies and their abhorrent environmental practices for one) and have had no recourse because of the companies team of high paid lawyers.
Govt can act as a conduit for more corporate control of our lives, and I would argue that over the last 30 yrs this is what has happened ( all the while those benefiting from the relationship have loudly yelled about the evils of govt out of the other side of their mouths) This is not good but the answer is not less govt its govt that acts as a fair arbiter and buffer for the 90-95% who dont have the capital means of the other 5-10%. Again I see no one with an R by their name who would share that view and few with a D by their name. But few is better than none
Again, we’re running up against the short-/long-term distinction, and anecdote versus data.
I in no way claim that Democratic policies always lead to immediately faster growth, or that voting for a particular Democrat will do so. That would be silly.
Policies take decades to play out — think the complex mix that came out of the New Deal. We don’t have enough data to analyze their long-term results *directly* and with high statistical significance. We agree on that.
So we have two options that I can see, if we want to analyze economic history *systematically* (as opposed to anecdotally).
1. Compare shorter-term effects, aggregated, over a long period. This is only an indirect indicator of long-term effects.
2. Compare long periods in a systematic way — i.e. pre- and post-New Deal (which means a small sample size).
So they’re both imperfect. But there’s a third dimension beyond sample size and period length: If we do enough of both types of analysis — enough data sets, enough slices and dices, enough different analysis methods — and if we use those analyses (in aggregate) to disprove narratives/models/theories, we can start to build confidence in those theories that have not been disproven. The Darwinian selection of the scientific process.
Maybe it suffices for you, but a string of anecdotes doesn’t help me. I’ve been wrong too many times based on them. I need to see them analyzed systematically, in a bunch of different ways.
So answer: if what I describe above is useless by your lights, what do you propose we use to feed our judgments?
Grag,
I expect government to defend property rights. That’s one of its purposes in life. I expect them to come and arrest me if I steal from Microsoft, Bill Gates, or my neighbor. But I can live life without interacting with Microsoft if I wish. I can’t do that with the Feds. So I want the Feds to have the smallest intrusion in my life as I can. Becuase the Feds can throw me in jail, microsoft can’t. And Microsoft doesn’t care if I ignore them as long as I don’t steal from them. But the Feds cannot be ignored. Look at Canada’s speech courts for an example of government run amoke on a small scale the Soviet Union on a large one.
I also expect government to protect the commons. Also one of the function of government. Just how they do so is for another thread.
As for the rest, if you truely beleive that then you have no hope. Becuaase bothe the Dems and Reps have been running the show during that time…
Islam will change
Rdan, with work I will get you up to the A list in sarcasm…
Very nice!
rdan,
Don’t use the word wealthy when you mean high-incomes. No one is talking about taxing wealth….they are talking about taxing people who want to become wealthy. Your not going to touch Gates wealth.
Islam will change
Thanks for your reply
“Is the idea that capital needs to be preserved over labor a good one?
Depends. Sometimes yes, sometimes no.”
Depends on what? Look at it from your perspective would you rather have a job or a house? You must choose. See labor is one of those two sided things. Its the source of cost for a business but its also the only source of income for a business. Every customer a business has is someone elses employee. Neo liberal economics does a great job of forgetting the fact that it is income form a job that is the driving force to all profits in an economy. So forget labor at the peril of the economy.
“Is the idea that inflation from wages is worse than protracted unemployment a good one?
I always thought, and this could be naive, that 2-3% inflation was overall good for both the economy in general and employment in paticular. Carter year inflation levels (or worse) are just plain bad for all. High inflation is worse than protarcted unemployment. “
When you say worse, how? If everyone has a job and can afford to buy everything at a higher price how is that worse than a segment of the population not having any access to an income? The problem is that TPTB have decide to use unemployment as a tool to control prices for those of us left with jobs. Worse, they’ve framed this, and paid many economists to “prove” this with fancy sounding formulas, as an economic truth. That this level of unemployment is necessary and natural. In fact its an ideological position that the costs of unemployment on those who bare it is worth it for those who are “lucky” to have jobs.
“Is the idea of a direct job creation program a bad one?
If you mean direct Government job creation – yes. Paying people to dig up and then fill in holes is a waste. It basically workfare, which we have discussed elsewhere.”
What if they are paid to do something way more creative than digging and filling holes? You frame the idea in the worst possible light and then make it easy to attack (Why should I start a company to hire 75 yr olds to stand at the door and say hi………………like Wal Mart…… see how easy it is to only present a part of the spectrum of real possibilities)
I’ll just ask, why should people who are willing to work have to rely totally on the private sector for their employment (unless they agree to carry a gun and chase brown people) when the private sector has proven itself totally incapable of handling the number of people seeking jobs ?( how can I say proven, they’ve had two plus years and numerous tax incentives given and no substantial improvement) The private sector needs (as they should) to be profitable to function. Without customers how are they profitable? How does a person become a customer without a job? See the catch 22? Someone needs to come and sprinkle some instant customer fairy dust. Now we could just transfer money to people for not working, they will then go out spend that money and new businesses will sprout up. But that would not be a good thing especially since we can find plenty of things for them to spend at least 6 -8 hours a day doing all over the country. SO lets just give them a job to do and rebuld the economy form the bottom up. The way it all started
“Is the idea that people should be able to buy insurance on their debt greater than the amount of their debt a good one?
Greg, I’m don’t understand this question and hesitate to try to guess. So I have to punt here… “
Im surprised you punted. This is simply […]
Steve,
???? ” in no way claim that Democratic policies always lead to immediately faster growth, or that voting for a particular Democrat will do so. That would be silly.”
But that is EXACTLY what your argueing for. Everyone should have voted for Clinton vs. Bush Sr in 1992 since Clinton would lead to policies that will cause immediate faster growth. Prove it. (its impossible with current state of the art)
Your point 2 was very adequately rebutted from the chart I posted. In the long term, sans MAJOR disruptions, the growth slope is steady. Which tells me the neither R or D policies have much effect over the long term. (And I will laugh at anyone who says todays Rep or D party has very much in common with the same named parties led by Hoover and FDR)
As for your point 1, you can’t answer any of the questions over the short term. Even in 20/20 hindsight. And you have zero ability to tell me how/why/how much Truman’s economic policy effected the post 1973 Oil shock GDP Growth. Heck lets do something simple. tell me how many percentage points FDRs SS program added to the US growth rate in 1985? (and I like SS).
All you have is a disconnected narrative that joins a bundle of anedotes that you wind together to say vote D.
Try addressing my questions in 10:18 post. If you can’t address them you have not met any test to make me say vote D (or R) based on economics. You signal to noise ratio is way way to low.
“So answer: if what I describe above is useless by your lights, what do you propose we use to feed our judgments?”
I judge a candidate on three criteria: Individual liberty, strong national defense, and smaller Federal government.
Nothing I have seen on AB in the time I’ve been here (5 years?) has led me to add a economic criteria since I have seen no way to judge a party’s ability in this area. I focus a lot on the 1992-1996 period since I beleive it shows in its starkest sense how little effect the Presidency has on the economy.
BTW: Though from listening to all the comments on this thread you are rapidly pushing me to the conclusion that Clinton missed the boat and should have been deficit spending like a mad-dog for more GDP growth. I dis-agree but that’s the conclusion I’m getting from you.
So go back and have your narrative explain to me why I my vote for Clinton in ’92 was correct from an economic standpoit. In otherwords answer my question.
Islam will change
faster growth, or that voting for a particular Democrat will do so. That
would be silly.”
No. You ignored the “always” and “particular.” Please be precise in your
responses or we’ll just go around in circles.
long term, sans MAJOR disruptions, the growth slope is steady.
1. You’re acting like I didn’t reply to that, and 2. I guess you haven’t
gone to see this yet:
http://www.asymptosis.com/one-thousand-words-on-prosperity-growth.html
term. Even in 20/20 hindsight. And you have zero ability to tell me
how/why/how much Truman’s economic policy effected the post 1973 Oil shock
GDP Growth. Heck lets do something simple. tell me how many percentage
points FDRs SS program added to the US growth rate in 1985? (and I like SS).
Do you really not understand the difference between anecdotes and aggregate
data?
Do you really not understand the difference between anecdotes and aggregate
data?
have not met any test to make me say vote D (or R) based on economics. You
signal to noise ratio is way way to low.
Do you really not understand the difference between anecdotes and aggregate
data?
If you believe the aggregate data is useless because there’s not a large
enough sample, fair enough. But it’s specious to argue that analysis of
aggregate data is useless because it can’t explain the particular narrative
for each sample point.
you propose we use to feed our judgments?”
defense, and smaller Federal government.
to add a economic criteria since I have seen no way to judge a party’s
ability in this area. I focus a lot on the 1992-1996 period since I beleive
it shows in its starkest sense how little effect the Presidency has on the
economy.
So you have no opinions on which policy choices result in greater American
prosperity? I think that’s what you’re saying.
I don’t believe that’s true (?), but if it is I think I’ll stop cause I’d
rather discuss economic issues with someone who has opinions, and evidence
to back them up.
rapidly pushing me to the conclusion that Clinton missed the boat and should
have been deficit spending like a mad-dog for more GDP growth. I dis-agree
but that’s the conclusion I’m getting from you.
Short-term that’s absolutely correct. But you’re again selectively ignoring
what I’ve said: the issue of the house of cards collapsing eventually.
Again: long-term prosperity.
in ’92 was correct from an economic standpoit.
Because Reaganomics (a long-term policy direction) had resulted in a serious
misbalance in the economy — not enough taxes to pay for the government,
excessive shift of wealth and income to the top of the pyramid, massive
misallocation of resources to the financial sector — and there was a higher
likelihood that Clinton would reverse those imbalances, resulting in higher
likelihood of greater long-term prosperity and reduced the risk of collapse.
??
Steve
Sorry about that formatting. I tried the email response thing. Won’t in future.
The whole point of a log plot is to yield a straight line. That it kinda-sorta worked here is not a convincing argument either for or against anything. This is a data analysis trick (and I mean that in a good way) that makes data sets less unruly and more amenable to analysis. MY’s plot is real GDP per capita. You also get a similar almost straignt line for simple real GPD over time.
In other words, Log GDP is pretty straight, whether corrected for population growth or not.
Big deviations off of linearity become striking in this context. Something big was hapening in the 30’s.
Cheers!
JzB
Steve,
I understand the difference between data and anecdotes. You don’t seem to understand the difference between them. Right now all you have is anecdotes and a lot of unconneted data points. Your talking about economic differences in long-term policy that are basically ‘in the noise’.
You say on one hand that I should vote D becuase of your narrative, then come back and say voting for a paticular Democrat for this reason would silly. BUT THAT”S WHAT YOUR ARGUEING! Great so why should I choose a Clinton over Bush Sr? Or Gore over Bush Jr? You just told me from an economic position I can flip a coin.
Long-term its quite obvious that I CAN flip a coin. Since the end of the post-war boom I could easily flip coins. Maybe if Nixon had won in 1960 we could have avoided Vietnam, but had to slave away with 2% growth…who knows. You don’t. All this tells me is that there has been a remarkable consenses in Government becuase no one has kept the growth going above/below the line for long. Or basically the President doesn’t have that much effect on the economy…oh wait that’s what I have said from the beginning!
As for your aggregate data. You start with the assumption that each US/World economy in 1935, 1955, 1975, and 1995 were the same. That’s ludicrous on its face. Which makes your aggregate data equally nonesense. Just becuase you can blend apples and car parts in the blender doesn’t make the smoothy drinkable.
Yet, when I have repeatedly asked you questions you call them anecdotes, and then pointedly avoid answering them. Well, the last response above told me that Clinton’s policies were sub-optimal in your opinion That’s a start at least.
Your narrative never tells me if any paticular party did the best the could vs. the world they faced. If Bush Jr had managed to keep the economic balloon from popping until after he left office like Clinton did, would you be cheering Bush on? I doubt it also…
I mentioned up thread a simple idea and again you ignore. Obama is President. According to your ‘data’ and ‘narrative’ if in Nov 2012 if U3 sat at 10% and GDP was flatlined can you tell me if Obama was sucessful with the economy or not? The voters may boot him but that doesn’t answer the question.
You make two large errors with your data and analysis. 1) that all economies are the same and can be compared across time (false on its face) and 2) That Presidents have enough control over the economy that a 1% difference in GDP growth is ALL caused by the party of the President – which you haven’t come close to even vaguely proving – especially in the face of #1. Especially if your going to go all ‘long-term’ effects on me (that works both ways).
Look at the 2000 election. The Dems held the executive Branch and if you new that the dot-com bubble would pop and we would get hit by 9/11 who should you have voted for from their stated policy positions and prior history? Well Gore following his administrations policies, could be expected to hit Afghanistan and swing immediately into regime-change in Iraq, with either minimal or no allied support (from Clinton ploicy at the time of the election). I would expect a Keynesian response to the inbound recession with more deficit spending & bigger government. From Bush Jr. I would expect, from his father’s example in 1991, a strong coalition attack into Afghanistan followed by a rapid withdraw after AQ was crunched (no nation building which he stated was his policy during the campaign). The dot-com recession would be met with tax cuts, deficit spending, and smaller gov growth. I would expect a small recession with steady growth afterword as seen after the 1980 and 1989 recessions.
You know what we got. But looking at the two men’s policies I had […]
Greg,
Well we are at least communicating! Obviously missed some of your points.
Capital vs Jobs – I mostly agree with you its just I don’t see the issue as either or. They work in tandum and you need both.
Inflation – Not sure how old you were during the WHIP inflation Now times. High inflation gutted lots of people, especialy the elderly. Yes, SS is indexed for inflation but I saw too many who couldn’t keep up. Anyone on fixed income. Yes if you could have pay keep up with rising prices I would agree with you. It just doesn’t work that way in real life. I’ll trade some hard unemployment to kill inflation Carter + levels of inflation everyday.
Look we are talking again about the differences in Welfare vs. Workfare vs Actual Gov jobs. I would only think it a good idea to hire workfare if we were looking at revolution as the alternative. And we weren’t there even in the depression.
I punted becuase I really didn’t know where you were coming from. The deregulation of Wall Street over the last two administrations has gotten out of hand. We need to end the “too big to fail meme” . Where is the minopoly buster when you need them?
As for stock prices. i’m not sure how you can get the incentives that are built into the system to encourage short term stock price increases. I have ideas involving different tax rates depending on length of stock hold, but not yet there. Otherwise agree with you.
As for Gov debt. this is and has been my biggest critism of the Bush Whitehouse. But then we got Obama and the Dems and the gov debt went from a drunk sailor to a drunk sailor on crack. Hopefully we will get at least an R House in November and maybe reign in some of the insanity. Unfortuantely since the Clinton/Gingrich era the Rs seem to have lost the fiscal discipline of yesteryear. And Obama has killed and buried deep any idea that the Dems might be the party of fiscal discilpline….
Islam will change
>a lot of unconneted data points.
?? http://www.asymptosis.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/Cong-Pres-economics-5.xls
>Your talking about economic differences in long-term policy that are basically ‘in the noise’.
That is a reasonable assertion. As I said: not a big enough sample. Your others aren’t. (i.e. “No perfectly predictive economic model.”)
And you don’t address the dimension of multiple analyses. You’re different from me, I guess; I like going up against the *best* arguments that I disagree with, not ignoring them. Helps me figure out what makes sense to believe. You should read Jim Manzi over at American Scene; he’s a great example, making arguments like yours but very cogent, lucid, and directly on-point.
>say voting for a paticular Democrat for this reason would silly.
*Perfect* example, thanks. I said that trying to predict any particular president’s perfomance based on analysis of aggregate long-term data would be “silly.” (But choosing a party’s policies long-term is not.) You restate it so it’s obviously false, then point out that it’s false.
It’s not worth it to me to have a conversation where we can’t move from logical point to logical point because the points keep getting twisted and distorted before they’re replied to.
All the best to you.
Steve
Steve,
Finally a glimpse I got through!
“But choosing a party’s policies long-term is not.”
If you can define a policy and robustly prove it, then you have something that ANY President could use reguardless of party.(and would win a Nobel Prize I’m pretty sure). Doesn’t matter if its a Democrat, a Republican, a Libertarian, or a Tea Party. A policy is NOT tied to a party. Both Ds and Rs supported the policies collectively known as containment during the Cold War. They both supported the policy of MAD. They both supported Bush Jrs, now Obama’s, policy in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Policy is independant of party. Let that sink in for a minute.
cactus if you are still reading stay with me for a moment…
Look if you determined that the best policy was to double the IRS Enforcement Divisions budget and hired the most steely eyed auditors to hunt down every last penny owed, and that policy gareenteed me a 2% GDP growth, then both parties would adapt it and we would argue about something else.
That is the point. What is the policy that you can attribute that resulted in the percived correlation that Dem Presidents have slightly higher GDP growth than Rep Presidents since WWII?
What is the causation (policy) for your percieved delta?
So far you have yet to address this most critical question (among many others).
And of course you duck all the rest of my questions becuase your narrative and metadate cant handle them and we are basically at the point that from an economic perspective we can flip a coin for the party of the President. You have yet to address any of the ‘hard’ questions. You duck them better than anyone around here though. Please keep posting but try to find a little logic in your arguments, becuase I haven’t seen much today.
Cheers,
Islam will change
Yeah and temperature is independent of season.
And you duck once again….
For someone who was supposidly bringing something to the table you really haven’t….
Buff
i think we could agree that the next step for Cactus is to look for that causal chain. I think that if he finds it… and i think it’s lying in plain sight… we would still be in danger of worshipping GDP or “growth.”
And we can guarantee that if Cactus wins the Nobel and all the newspapers fall in love with him we will have both parties coming out with soundbites that show their policies are sound Cacusnomics and the other guys just dont get it.