Sin 9/11/2001 GW Bush made it a policy to move efforts into the Jihadists backyard(s) and recognize we are at war with them.
The Obama administration has moved from a war footing against the Jihadists to a criminal/law enforcement based approach. He has also tried an open hand approach to ME diplomacy. He often has taken partial blame for the ME conditions.
The results are already starting to show. Bush US territory death count: zero (0). Unknown number of attack attempts stymied.
Obama US territory death count: fourteen (14) with two successful attacks and one failed attempt due to sheer luck. Unknown number of attack attempts stymied.
One policy is clearly more effective when using attacks on American soil and the ensuing deaths as the metric.
Since 9/11/2001 GW Bush made it a policy to move efforts of combating terrorist efforts into the Jihadists backyard(s) and recognized we are at war with them.
The Obama administration has moved from a war footing against the Jihadists to a criminal/law enforcement based approach. he has dropped the terms terrorists ans Global War on Terror. He has also tried an open hand approach to ME diplomacy. He often has taken partial blame for the ME conditions.
The results are already starting to show. Bush death count due to successful terrorist attacks on US territory: zero (0). Unknown number of attack attempts stymied.
Obama US territory death count: fourteen (14) with two successful attacks and one failed attempt due to sheer luck. Unknown number of attack attempts stymied. (Note: I dropped the term “terrorist” in the Obama comparison. That’s what he wants as a policy difference is it not?)
One policy is clearly more effective when using attacks on American soil and the ensuing deaths as the metric.
Since 9/11/2001 GW Bush made it a policy to move efforts of combating terrorist efforts into the Jihadists backyard(s) and recognized we are at war with them.
The Obama administration has moved from a war footing against the Jihadists to a criminal/law enforcement based approach. He has dropped the terms terrorists ans Global War on Terror. He has also tried an open hand approach to ME diplomacy. He often has taken partial blame for the ME conditions.
The results are already starting to show. Bush death count due to successful terrorist attacks on US territory: zero (0). Unknown number of attack attempts stymied.
Obama US territory death count: fourteen (14) with two successful attacks and one failed attempt due to sheer luck. Unknown number of attack attempts stymied. (Note: I dropped the term “terrorist” in the Obama comparison. That’s what he wants as a policy difference is it not?)
One policy is clearly more effective when using attacks on American soil and the ensuing deaths as the metric.
Actually what Bush did was to move young Americans where Muslim Liberationists aka AlQaida could more easily kill them. It was only with vast effort that AlQaida killed around 3000 Americans on 9/11. We lost more than that in Iraq plus many thousands more crippled for life. Now we are sending victims to Afghanistan for AlQaida to kill. Really smart, aren’t we?
PS Just to remind you we are at war with them for Israel’s sake and due to its influence. If we didn’t have Israel hanging around our neck, we wouldn’t have these wars. We didn’t have any problems with the Muslim world before Israel came into being.
As I see it 6200 American,UK and unfortunate ally soldiers plus and uncounted number of Iraqis (certainly more than 100 thousand) and Afghans have died in order to protect the more or less worthless, cowardly butts of you and those like you.
IMO your hero George the Clueless knew as much about anti-terroism as he did about flood protection. If we had the slightest amount of sense, we’d simply scrap the failed wars on drugs and terrorism — forget the first and restart the latter from scratch with adults in charge.
Codger and MM go tell it to the families of those killed under the latter policies. The military families know what they were getting into, and why they were fighting.
A policy shift we might add to the above list is the release of the remaining worse of the worse of the Gitmo detainees.
I would also like to point out: “…(certainly more than 100 thousand) and Afghans have died in order to protect the more or less worthless, cowardly butts of you and those like you.” that those 100K+ were mostly not killed by the US, but those “liberationists” to which MM refers.
Codger, please remember it is not only my worthless, cowardly butt being saved, but yours and your family’s, your neighbors, and everyone else in the US. Of course it is much easier to make a silly name calling comment when you have little response other than emotion.
I wouldn’t ascribe to Ft. Hood attack to this, but the others, maybe. Obama gives the impression of a supplicant, narcissistic, and lazy naif. It’s not a stretch to wonder if this has emboldened our enemies.
First, Bush did not make it “a policy to move efforts of combating terrorist efforts into the Jihadists backyard(s).” That’s what the Bush apologists would like you to believe, but the facts are quite different. Bush scaled back efforts in Afghanistan, which is where the radical Jihadists were and still are. Bush scaled back efforts in Yemen, which has only recently been revved up by Obama. And Bush also scaled back terrorist fighting efforts in Somalia and Djibouti after the Iraq War started. For example, I remember having to go through all kinds of hoops and hijinx just trying to obtain a simple M25 sniper rifle for some Lt CMDR Navy SEAL for a mission in Djibouti. It was ridiculous. And terrorism outside of the US grew wildly, which puts the lie to Bush’s so called “global” war on terror. The State Dept’s own numbers show that the number of terrorist attacks was twice as high over the 18 month period following the start of the Iraq War compared to the previous 18 months between 9/11 and the Gulf War. But in CoRev’s world terrorist attacks in Spain don’t count. Terrorst attacks in Indonesia don’t count. Terrorst attacks in London don’t count. And terrorst attacks in India don’t count. And terrorist attacks against Americans in Pakistan don’t count (note…my brother-in-law had to personally recover Daniel Pearl’s body). But go ahead and believe the Bush line about taking the fight to the terrorists if it makes you feel better.
This latest SNAFU with the Nigerian would-be-terrorist was a failure of police work rather than a failure of taking the fight to terrorists’ backyards.
The relationship between terrorist actions and the effectiveness of a government’s reaction to terrorist attacks is a lot subtler than the talkingheads at Fox News would have you believe. Here are a couple of good studies that not only can serve as good examples of econometrics in action, but they offer some useful insights into effective versus ineffective policy responses.
“Causality Between Transnational Terrorism and Tourism: The Case of Spain”,Terrorism, vol 14 (Jan 1991), pages 49-58, by Walter Enders, and Todd Sandler. Also, “An Econometric Analysis of the Impact of Terrorism on Tourism,”Kyklos vol 45 (1992), pages 531-554, by Walter Enders, Todd Sandler and Gerald Parise. These papers use variance decomposition to trace out the staying power of govt responses and answers the question whether or not terrorists randomize attacks or respond to policies (Granger causality). Lots of applied VAR analysis and impulse/response charts.
“Assessing the Impact of Terrorist-Thwarting Policies: An Intervention Time Series Analysis Approach,”Defense Economics vol 2, (Dec 1990), pages 1-18, Walter Enders, Todd Sandler and Jon Cauley. The case studies here include air hijackings and especially the Libyan bombing by Reagan following the PanAm attack. I think you will be surprised by the results of the analysis once you drop the US-centric approach and start thinking globally. The reality is very different than what you probably thought.
So these should be considered “twofers”. A lesson in applied econometrics as well as useful analyses of the effectiveness of various responses to terrorist attacks. Enders is pretty much the guru on applied econometrics in the field of terrorism.
***Codger, please remember it is not only my worthless, cowardly butt being saved, but yours and your family’s, your neighbors, and everyone else in the US.***
How about you quit tryijng to protect me and my family? I’ll take my chances and do not desire protection — especially that arranged by homicidal incompetents. IMO Bush’s approach has accomplishing is to spread grief and misery, breed more enemies (something that we do not remotely need), and to further demean a once great country.
Most of the hapless tools who got sent to Iraq to be killed or crippled got into the military because they needed the money, not because “they knew what they getting into”. Or do you mean that some Hispanic who joined up in 1999 for the money knew he would be sent to war in Iraq in 2003? We haven’t mentioned the divorces, broken homes, mental problems and other imbedded costs to the Iraq stupidity. And as far as your nonsense about all our “butts being saved” you simply don’t get it at all. They wouldn’t be fighting us if we weren’t over there killing them and occupying their countries. Is that so complex you don’t get it? If so, God help you.
We aren’t going to defeat Muslim liberation with military means, Period. Intelligent people perceive this. Others don’t. The US mentality has sunk to the level at which it thinks killing people and bombing them will change their beliefs. It won’t. One can go through it all again and again but those who are warmongers will simply never understand. Like the Nazis never understood why the Russians and the Brits wouldn’t give up until they were defeated. Or the Africans wouldn’t give up until they got the Portuguese and British out of Africa. Or the Indians got the British out of India. Or the Indonesians got the Diutch out of their lands. Or the Vietnamese got the French and Americans out of their lands. The imperial mentality is atavistically alive still in a sadly large number of US brains.
Interest on excess reserves are a terrible regressive redistribution of wealth equivalent to an interest rate of about 8% on overnight funds. http://bit.ly/econFail
Those 8 Americans killed in Afghanistan reported today should not have died. For you or your illogical suspicions that you are should be afraid of some fictitious danger from someone in East Afghanistan.
I own enough personal weapons to defend my neighborhood against A Qaeda or anyone else wanting a piece of me or my neighbors. I never flew buffs so I can handle personal arms.
Civil defense is a sure alternative to perpetual war, which did nothing to stop the failed attempt last Saturday night.
It was a failed attempt, and had I been on the airplane I would have been on the guy too.
Rather let all passengers be armed than use any more young soldiers’ lives to supposedly protect me or your sorry person.
I do not see occupations as effecting airline safety.
Besides the US cannot occupy the world for your unfounded fears and preference for perpetual war profits.
What I fear far too few Americans understand is that constantly swatting at “terrorists” is rather like hitting a wasp nest or nests. There are a billion Muslims in the world. By no means all are infuriated or angry but a large number are, they are young, and they are willing to attack. The more we try to maintain our imperial occupations and interventions in their affairs the more angry they get and the more of them attack. Each attack may be relatively ineffective, but we can see the dismay and commotion caused by just one, recent failed attack. And the longer we are unable to stop the attacks the more there will be. We are on a fool’s errand. Very sad. Some good sense would be very helpful, but there doesn’t seem to be much around.
As MM said, I think I just swatted a hornets nest. All the emotion does not change the facts. One set of policies to protect the homeland has been more effective as measured by deaths.
Sammy, sorry, but Ft Hood was definitely perpetrated by a self radicalized jihadist. As was the Arkansas recruiter killer. I fear we are in for a rough couple of years before obama finds his footing. Pity be to those who have to bear that burden.
MM, thinking our presence or not in the ME would make no difference. They wish to create a Caliphate and are using the West as the catalyst. Attacking us distracts the poor under educated and easily (mis)lead ME Muslim off themselves as they kill hundreds of thousands of their bretheren and destroy regime after regime in the ME.
Codger, on this and the many other sujects we must just agree to disagree. Our views are diametrically opposed.
This is just the satrt of the discussion re: policy differences. The metrics are going to be devastating as they are uncovered. That goes for both sides of the issues, as no one is 100% correct.
As MM said, I think I just swatted a hornets nest. All the emotion shown here does not change the facts. GW’s set of policies to protect the homeland has been more effective as measured by US deaths.
Sammy, sorry, but Ft Hood was definitely perpetrated by a self radicalized jihadist. As was the Arkansas recruiter killer. I fear we are in for a rough couple of years before obama finds his footing. Pity be to those who have to bear that burden.
MM, thinking our presence or not in the ME would make no difference is just shallow thinking. They wish to create a Caliphate, and are using the West as the catalyst. Attacking us distracts the poor under educated and easily (mis)lead ME Muslim from themselves as they kill hundreds of thousands of their Muslim bretheren and destroy regime after regime in the ME.
Codger, on this and the many other subjects we must just agree to disagree. Our views are diametrically opposed.
This is just the start of the discussion re: policy differences. The metrics are going to be devastating as they are uncovered. That goes for both sides of the issues, as no one is 100% correct.
More weapons for the US? Well we already spend over 700 billion (something like that) on the “Defense” Dept., the second largest item in the budget, to maintain our empire. And our debt level is approaching 100% pf GDP. Meanwhile Russia’s debt level is much much lower. We risk fiscal strain now that we have decided to enlarge medical expenditures. Cutting social programs will be a sure road to political defeat. There will have to be changes: higher taxes, inflation, lower benefits and standard of living if we are going to continue our imperial madness.
Oh please stop the Caliphate nonsense. That’s a straw man to stir up hostility, like the Protocols of Zion, etc. People who believe that stuff really don’t deserve a hearing. What is important is that Shruby’s war for Israel hasn’t stopped “terror” or captured bin Laden or quieted our problems. Now Russia is threatening to increase its military expenditures to counter our imperialism
and this will be a real problem. We already spend 700 billion or somesuch on the humorously named “Defense” Department, the second largest item in the budget. Our debt level is approaching 100% of GDP. Further debt will force politically murderous choices: higher taxes, inflation, or cuts in entitlements. The latter will be political suicide. So expect higher taxes, a VAT ultimately, and a much lower standard of living. IF we decide to continue our imperial madness. We are reaching the end of our tether, but let’s wait to see. I doubt you will like what is coming down the pike at us due to our imperial arrogance.
Meanwhile China too is building up its military and the Navy is fearful it won’t continue to be able to “perform its mission” (defending our imperial satellites) in the Far East against rising Chinese military power. So now we are finding out what Hitler found out when he attacked Russia and Japan when it attacked the US….going too far is deadly. We of course are not at war with China or Russia but to counter them militarily with our busted budget is going to be a very big problem. We need to pull in our horns, but you can’t make the warmongers see that.
Sorry, totally not on topic, at least for this thread, but can someone point me toward graphs illustrating the volume (or lack thereof) for bank lending to mainstreet and households for 2009? Thanks!
As to your first paragraph, if 9/11 and the thousands of american deaths don’t count against Bush, how can 14 deaths count against Obama?
As to your third paragraph, “They wish to create a Caliphate, and are using the West as the catalyst. Attacking us distracts the poor under educated and easily (mis)lead ME Muslim from themselves as they kill hundreds of thousands of their Muslim bretheren and destroy regime after regime in the ME.” Terrorism works by provoking an extreme response from the target country. This extreme response causes support among the terrorists local population to move away from the foreign country and toward the terrorist organization; the populations support is key for any successful terrorist campaign. If, as you suggest, the goal of the terrorist organization is to use the US to distract the local population while the terrorist organization kills Muslims and overthrows regimes, then the US military response plays exactly into the hands of Al Qaeda by pushing population support toward them. This suggests that the proper US response that would stop Al Qaeda would be a military exit from the ME, while maintaining more small scale counter-terrorism tactics. Personally, I do not agree with your argument that extremists use the US to distract their local population; I just thought you should be aware of the implications of your argument.
I can’t offhand and I have to say Google as a search engine is sorely lacking. It often puts old data ahead of later data, tells you about New Zealand rather than the US and in short can be quite worthless when you ask for even what ought to be easily available info. You would think Google would at least bring up links in chronological order, but it doesn’t.
“FAILED plane bomber Umar Abdulmutallab has bragged to FBI agents that there are more young men plotting to launch attacks on the West.” http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article2785733.ece Now: “Abdulmutallab remains in a Detroit area prison and, after initial debriefings by the FBI, has restricted his cooperation since securing a defense attorney, according to federal officials.”
They are just pontificating from their safe perch. Remember a big attraction of Liberalism is that it makes them FEEL GOOD ABOUT THEMSELVES. The dirty, dangerous, adult work of protecting the country falls to others. Unfortunately Obama does not appear to be one of those people.
We now know what Obama would do in the “Ticking Time Bomb” scenario.
Naive Americans have little comprehension of the degree and intensity of the hatred for us in the Muslim world. They should wake up to it for their own good. Fanning the flames further is not smart, but then given our problems, who can think Americans are very smart? Smart is Chinese.
I fear you have no understanding of the “terrorist” mentality and your statements show it. It is not smart to have no understanding of those who hate you. It is a fatal weakness.
Updated to expand the list of wars/partners and add a thought. MM you don’t know much about American capabilities. All you seem to understand is the military side of what we are capable of doing. Just take a short walk down history lane to see how many of our prior enemies are now our staunchest allies.
We are not the ogres as you depict us to be. We try to be friends with everyone who will let us. Those who don’t want a friendly relationship we ignore. Those who attack us or our friends we make pay.
Wars with Canada, Britain, Spain, Mexico, Japan, Germany, Korea, Iraq, Afghanistan (still a little too early) and even VietNam and the list goes on with minor conflicts. And, we have no control over their policies or politics. Just strong bonds of friendship and understanding.
So MM I fear you have no understanding of the American mentality. And, that is a sad position to be in while preaching fear and false concern.
Many here preach against American exceptionalism, but I fear they are poor, really poor historians. If we were not exceptional why then do so many strive to become Americans and or replicate the American experience? We live that exceptionalism. We wear it like a coat, and still it is missed by so many.
Exceptional? Yes. Perfect? Far from it, but there is still no country that has done more good for so much of this planet’s populace. If you know of one, please tell us so that we can then emulate them.
Its main points are arguments against using the Precautionary Principle versus what he describes: “If you do care about CO2 and think it is teh eeeevil, you should be out promoting your “favorite no-regrets option. Because whether or not CO2 is a danger as people claim, if you do that you can be sure that you are not just pouring money down a bottomless hole with very poor odds of success. That’s the real Precautionary Principle.”
In the comments someone recommends applying the procautionary and not the precautionary principle. Good advice, I think.
Policy differences are starting to show value?
Sin 9/11/2001 GW Bush made it a policy to move efforts into the Jihadists backyard(s) and recognize we are at war with them.
The Obama administration has moved from a war footing against the Jihadists to a criminal/law enforcement based approach. He has also tried an open hand approach to ME diplomacy. He often has taken partial blame for the ME conditions.
The results are already starting to show. Bush US territory death count: zero (0). Unknown number of attack attempts stymied.
Obama US territory death count: fourteen (14) with two successful attacks and one failed attempt due to sheer luck. Unknown number of attack attempts stymied.
One policy is clearly more effective when using attacks on American soil and the ensuing deaths as the metric.
Policy differences are starting to show value?
Since 9/11/2001 GW Bush made it a policy to move efforts of combating terrorist efforts into the Jihadists backyard(s) and recognized we are at war with them.
The Obama administration has moved from a war footing against the Jihadists to a criminal/law enforcement based approach. he has dropped the terms terrorists ans Global War on Terror. He has also tried an open hand approach to ME diplomacy. He often has taken partial blame for the ME conditions.
The results are already starting to show. Bush death count due to successful terrorist attacks on US territory: zero (0). Unknown number of attack attempts stymied.
Obama US territory death count: fourteen (14) with two successful attacks and one failed attempt due to sheer luck. Unknown number of attack attempts stymied. (Note: I dropped the term “terrorist” in the Obama comparison. That’s what he wants as a policy difference is it not?)
One policy is clearly more effective when using attacks on American soil and the ensuing deaths as the metric.
Policy differences are starting to show value?
Since 9/11/2001 GW Bush made it a policy to move efforts of combating terrorist efforts into the Jihadists backyard(s) and recognized we are at war with them.
The Obama administration has moved from a war footing against the Jihadists to a criminal/law enforcement based approach. He has dropped the terms terrorists ans Global War on Terror. He has also tried an open hand approach to ME diplomacy. He often has taken partial blame for the ME conditions.
The results are already starting to show. Bush death count due to successful terrorist attacks on US territory: zero (0). Unknown number of attack attempts stymied.
Obama US territory death count: fourteen (14) with two successful attacks and one failed attempt due to sheer luck. Unknown number of attack attempts stymied. (Note: I dropped the term “terrorist” in the Obama comparison. That’s what he wants as a policy difference is it not?)
One policy is clearly more effective when using attacks on American soil and the ensuing deaths as the metric.
Our imperial wars do us so much good:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/Afghanistan/article6971638.ece
Americans need to reflect on why they make themselves miserable with their stupidity.
Actually what Bush did was to move young Americans where Muslim Liberationists aka AlQaida could more easily kill them. It was only with vast effort that AlQaida killed around 3000 Americans on 9/11. We lost more than that in Iraq plus many thousands more crippled for life. Now we are sending victims to Afghanistan for AlQaida to kill. Really smart, aren’t we?
PS Just to remind you we are at war with them for Israel’s sake and due to its influence. If we didn’t have Israel hanging around our neck, we wouldn’t have these wars. We didn’t have any problems with the Muslim world before Israel came into being.
As I see it 6200 American,UK and unfortunate ally soldiers plus and uncounted number of Iraqis (certainly more than 100 thousand) and Afghans have died in order to protect the more or less worthless, cowardly butts of you and those like you.
IMO your hero George the Clueless knew as much about anti-terroism as he did about flood protection. If we had the slightest amount of sense, we’d simply scrap the failed wars on drugs and terrorism — forget the first and restart the latter from scratch with adults in charge.
You are among the minority, sadly enough, who see things clearly. Un-duped, as it were.
Codger and MM go tell it to the families of those killed under the latter policies. The military families know what they were getting into, and why they were fighting.
A policy shift we might add to the above list is the release of the remaining worse of the worse of the Gitmo detainees.
I would also like to point out: “…(certainly more than 100 thousand) and Afghans have died in order to protect the more or less worthless, cowardly butts of you and those like you.” that those 100K+ were mostly not killed by the US, but those “liberationists” to which MM refers.
Codger, please remember it is not only my worthless, cowardly butt being saved, but yours and your family’s, your neighbors, and everyone else in the US. Of course it is much easier to make a silly name calling comment when you have little response other than emotion.
Good point CoRev,
I wouldn’t ascribe to Ft. Hood attack to this, but the others, maybe. Obama gives the impression of a supplicant, narcissistic, and lazy naif. It’s not a stretch to wonder if this has emboldened our enemies.
CoRev,
First, Bush did not make it “a policy to move efforts of combating terrorist efforts into the Jihadists backyard(s).” That’s what the Bush apologists would like you to believe, but the facts are quite different. Bush scaled back efforts in Afghanistan, which is where the radical Jihadists were and still are. Bush scaled back efforts in Yemen, which has only recently been revved up by Obama. And Bush also scaled back terrorist fighting efforts in Somalia and Djibouti after the Iraq War started. For example, I remember having to go through all kinds of hoops and hijinx just trying to obtain a simple M25 sniper rifle for some Lt CMDR Navy SEAL for a mission in Djibouti. It was ridiculous. And terrorism outside of the US grew wildly, which puts the lie to Bush’s so called “global” war on terror. The State Dept’s own numbers show that the number of terrorist attacks was twice as high over the 18 month period following the start of the Iraq War compared to the previous 18 months between 9/11 and the Gulf War. But in CoRev’s world terrorist attacks in Spain don’t count. Terrorst attacks in Indonesia don’t count. Terrorst attacks in London don’t count. And terrorst attacks in India don’t count. And terrorist attacks against Americans in Pakistan don’t count (note…my brother-in-law had to personally recover Daniel Pearl’s body). But go ahead and believe the Bush line about taking the fight to the terrorists if it makes you feel better.
This latest SNAFU with the Nigerian would-be-terrorist was a failure of police work rather than a failure of taking the fight to terrorists’ backyards.
For CoRev,
The relationship between terrorist actions and the effectiveness of a government’s reaction to terrorist attacks is a lot subtler than the talkingheads at Fox News would have you believe. Here are a couple of good studies that not only can serve as good examples of econometrics in action, but they offer some useful insights into effective versus ineffective policy responses.
“Causality Between Transnational Terrorism and Tourism: The Case of Spain”, Terrorism, vol 14 (Jan 1991), pages 49-58, by Walter Enders, and Todd Sandler. Also, “An Econometric Analysis of the Impact of Terrorism on Tourism,” Kyklos vol 45 (1992), pages 531-554, by Walter Enders, Todd Sandler and Gerald Parise. These papers use variance decomposition to trace out the staying power of govt responses and answers the question whether or not terrorists randomize attacks or respond to policies (Granger causality). Lots of applied VAR analysis and impulse/response charts.
“Assessing the Impact of Terrorist-Thwarting Policies: An Intervention Time Series Analysis Approach,” Defense Economics vol 2, (Dec 1990), pages 1-18, Walter Enders, Todd Sandler and Jon Cauley. The case studies here include air hijackings and especially the Libyan bombing by Reagan following the PanAm attack. I think you will be surprised by the results of the analysis once you drop the US-centric approach and start thinking globally. The reality is very different than what you probably thought.
So these should be considered “twofers”. A lesson in applied econometrics as well as useful analyses of the effectiveness of various responses to terrorist attacks. Enders is pretty much the guru on applied econometrics in the field of terrorism.
***Codger, please remember it is not only my worthless, cowardly butt being saved, but yours and your family’s, your neighbors, and everyone else in the US.***
How about you quit tryijng to protect me and my family? I’ll take my chances and do not desire protection — especially that arranged by homicidal incompetents. IMO Bush’s approach has accomplishing is to spread grief and misery, breed more enemies (something that we do not remotely need), and to further demean a once great country.
Most of the hapless tools who got sent to Iraq to be killed or crippled got into the military because they needed the money, not because “they knew what they getting into”. Or do you mean that some Hispanic who joined up in 1999 for the money knew he would be sent to war in Iraq in 2003? We haven’t mentioned the divorces, broken homes, mental problems and other imbedded costs to the Iraq stupidity. And as far as your nonsense about all our “butts being saved” you simply don’t get it at all. They wouldn’t be fighting us if we weren’t over there killing them and occupying their countries. Is that so complex you don’t get it? If so, God help you.
We aren’t going to defeat Muslim liberation with military means, Period. Intelligent people perceive this. Others don’t. The US mentality has sunk to the level at which it thinks killing people and bombing them will change their beliefs. It won’t. One can go through it all again and again but those who are warmongers will simply never understand. Like the Nazis never understood why the Russians and the Brits wouldn’t give up until they were defeated. Or the Africans wouldn’t give up until they got the Portuguese and British out of Africa. Or the Indians got the British out of India. Or the Indonesians got the Diutch out of their lands. Or the Vietnamese got the French and Americans out of their lands. The imperial mentality is atavistically alive still in a sadly large number of US brains.
Interest on excess reserves are a terrible regressive redistribution of wealth equivalent to an interest rate of about 8% on overnight funds. http://bit.ly/econFail
What is the best way to communicate this fact?
CoRev,
Those 8 Americans killed in Afghanistan reported today should not have died. For you or your illogical suspicions that you are should be afraid of some fictitious danger from someone in East Afghanistan.
I own enough personal weapons to defend my neighborhood against A Qaeda or anyone else wanting a piece of me or my neighbors. I never flew buffs so I can handle personal arms.
Civil defense is a sure alternative to perpetual war, which did nothing to stop the failed attempt last Saturday night.
It was a failed attempt, and had I been on the airplane I would have been on the guy too.
Rather let all passengers be armed than use any more young soldiers’ lives to supposedly protect me or your sorry person.
I do not see occupations as effecting airline safety.
Besides the US cannot occupy the world for your unfounded fears and preference for perpetual war profits.
What point of CoRev’s was “good” and how do defend your definition of “good” point?
What I fear far too few Americans understand is that constantly swatting at “terrorists” is rather like hitting a wasp nest or nests. There are a billion Muslims in the world. By no means all are infuriated or angry but a large number are, they are young, and they are willing to attack. The more we try to maintain our imperial occupations and interventions in their affairs the more angry they get and the more of them attack. Each attack may be relatively ineffective, but we can see the dismay and commotion caused by just one, recent failed attack. And the longer we are unable to stop the attacks the more there will be. We are on a fool’s errand. Very sad. Some good sense would be very helpful, but there doesn’t seem to be much around.
As MM said, I think I just swatted a hornets nest. All the emotion does not change the facts. One set of policies to protect the homeland has been more effective as measured by deaths.
Sammy, sorry, but Ft Hood was definitely perpetrated by a self radicalized jihadist. As was the Arkansas recruiter killer. I fear we are in for a rough couple of years before obama finds his footing. Pity be to those who have to bear that burden.
MM, thinking our presence or not in the ME would make no difference. They wish to create a Caliphate and are using the West as the catalyst. Attacking us distracts the poor under educated and easily (mis)lead ME Muslim off themselves as they kill hundreds of thousands of their bretheren and destroy regime after regime in the ME.
Codger, on this and the many other sujects we must just agree to disagree. Our views are diametrically opposed.
This is just the satrt of the discussion re: policy differences. The metrics are going to be devastating as they are uncovered. That goes for both sides of the issues, as no one is 100% correct.
As Bruce said: “let a thousand flowers bloom.”
As MM said, I think I just swatted a hornets nest. All the emotion shown here does not change the facts. GW’s set of policies to protect the homeland has been more effective as measured by US deaths.
Sammy, sorry, but Ft Hood was definitely perpetrated by a self radicalized jihadist. As was the Arkansas recruiter killer. I fear we are in for a rough couple of years before obama finds his footing. Pity be to those who have to bear that burden.
MM, thinking our presence or not in the ME would make no difference is just shallow thinking. They wish to create a Caliphate, and are using the West as the catalyst. Attacking us distracts the poor under educated and easily (mis)lead ME Muslim from themselves as they kill hundreds of thousands of their Muslim bretheren and destroy regime after regime in the ME.
Codger, on this and the many other subjects we must just agree to disagree. Our views are diametrically opposed.
This is just the start of the discussion re: policy differences. The metrics are going to be devastating as they are uncovered. That goes for both sides of the issues, as no one is 100% correct.
As Bruce said: “let a thousand flowers bloom.”
American Imperialism produces an unwanted reaction:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article6970921.ece
More weapons for the US? Well we already spend over 700 billion (something like that) on the “Defense” Dept., the second largest item in the budget, to maintain our empire. And our debt level is approaching 100% pf GDP. Meanwhile Russia’s debt level is much much lower. We risk fiscal strain now that we have decided to enlarge medical expenditures. Cutting social programs will be a sure road to political defeat. There will have to be changes: higher taxes, inflation, lower benefits and standard of living if we are going to continue our imperial madness.
Oh please stop the Caliphate nonsense. That’s a straw man to stir up hostility, like the Protocols of Zion, etc. People who believe that stuff really don’t deserve a hearing. What is important is that Shruby’s war for Israel hasn’t stopped “terror” or captured bin Laden or quieted our problems. Now Russia is threatening to increase its military expenditures to counter our imperialism
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article6970921.ece
and this will be a real problem. We already spend 700 billion or somesuch on the humorously named “Defense” Department, the second largest item in the budget. Our debt level is approaching 100% of GDP. Further debt will force politically murderous choices: higher taxes, inflation, or cuts in entitlements. The latter will be political suicide. So expect higher taxes, a VAT ultimately, and a much lower standard of living. IF we decide to continue our imperial madness. We are reaching the end of our tether, but let’s wait to see. I doubt you will like what is coming down the pike at us due to our imperial arrogance.
Meanwhile China too is building up its military and the Navy is fearful it won’t continue to be able to “perform its mission” (defending our imperial satellites) in the Far East against rising Chinese military power. So now we are finding out what Hitler found out when he attacked Russia and Japan when it attacked the US….going too far is deadly. We of course are not at war with China or Russia but to counter them militarily with our busted budget is going to be a very big problem. We need to pull in our horns, but you can’t make the warmongers see that.
http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/56272,news-comment,news-politics,chinese-missile-threatens-us-navys-pacific-fleet
Sorry, totally not on topic, at least for this thread, but can someone point me toward graphs illustrating the volume (or lack thereof) for bank lending to mainstreet and households for 2009? Thanks!
As to your first paragraph, if 9/11 and the thousands of american deaths don’t count against Bush, how can 14 deaths count against Obama?
As to your third paragraph, “They wish to create a Caliphate, and are using the West as the catalyst. Attacking us distracts the poor under educated and easily (mis)lead ME Muslim from themselves as they kill hundreds of thousands of their Muslim bretheren and destroy regime after regime in the ME.”
Terrorism works by provoking an extreme response from the target country. This extreme response causes support among the terrorists local population to move away from the foreign country and toward the terrorist organization; the populations support is key for any successful terrorist campaign. If, as you suggest, the goal of the terrorist organization is to use the US to distract the local population while the terrorist organization kills Muslims and overthrows regimes, then the US military response plays exactly into the hands of Al Qaeda by pushing population support toward them. This suggests that the proper US response that would stop Al Qaeda would be a military exit from the ME, while maintaining more small scale counter-terrorism tactics.
Personally, I do not agree with your argument that extremists use the US to distract their local population; I just thought you should be aware of the implications of your argument.
Sending them over so they can be more easily killed. Our service of Americans on a platter to the Taliban is probably well appreciated by them.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091231/ap_on_re_as/as_afghanistan_war_deaths
As far as Taliban go, we seem to kill more women and children than any others. Way to go, Uncle Sammy. Soooo smart.
I can’t offhand and I have to say Google as a search engine is sorely lacking. It often puts old data ahead of later data, tells you about New Zealand rather than the US and in short can be quite worthless when you ask for even what ought to be easily available info. You would think Google would at least bring up links in chronological order, but it doesn’t.
Hopefully we are waterboarding, not Mirandizing this guy.
On an optimistic note, I hope the new see body scanners at airports will induce the ladies to work on their figures.
On an optimistic note, I hope the new see through body scanners at airports will induce the ladies to work on their figures.
MM,
http://www.googleguide.com/
“FAILED plane bomber Umar Abdulmutallab has bragged to FBI agents that there are more young men plotting to launch attacks on the West.” http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article2785733.ece
Now:
“Abdulmutallab remains in a Detroit area prison and, after initial debriefings by the FBI, has restricted his cooperation since securing a defense attorney, according to federal officials.”
Arrrrrgh!!!!!!!
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/12/29/AR2009122901433_pf.html
This guy attempted to murder 300 innocent people for god’s sake. Don’t we wnat to find and destroy his network?
CoRev,
They are just pontificating from their safe perch. Remember a big attraction of Liberalism is that it makes them FEEL GOOD ABOUT THEMSELVES. The dirty, dangerous, adult work of protecting the country falls to others. Unfortunately Obama does not appear to be one of those people.
We now know what Obama would do in the “Ticking Time Bomb” scenario.
This is going to come back to bite him,
“58% Favor Waterboarding of Plane Terrorist To Get Information”http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_politics/december_2009/58_favor_waterboarding_of_plane_terrorist_to_get_information
Naive Americans have little comprehension of the degree and intensity of the hatred for us in the Muslim world. They should wake up to it for their own good. Fanning the flames further is not smart, but then given our problems, who can think Americans are very smart? Smart is Chinese.
I fear you have no understanding of the “terrorist” mentality and your statements show it. It is not smart to have no understanding of those who hate you. It is a fatal weakness.
Updated to expand the list of wars/partners and add a thought.
MM you don’t know much about American capabilities. All you seem to understand is the military side of what we are capable of doing. Just take a short walk down history lane to see how many of our prior enemies are now our staunchest allies.
We are not the ogres as you depict us to be. We try to be friends with everyone who will let us. Those who don’t want a friendly relationship we ignore. Those who attack us or our friends we make pay.
Wars with Canada, Britain, Spain, Mexico, Japan, Germany, Korea, Iraq, Afghanistan (still a little too early) and even VietNam and the list goes on with minor conflicts. And, we have no control over their policies or politics. Just strong bonds of friendship and understanding.
So MM I fear you have no understanding of the American mentality. And, that is a sad position to be in while preaching fear and false concern.
Many here preach against American exceptionalism, but I fear they are poor, really poor historians. If we were not exceptional why then do so many strive to become Americans and or replicate the American experience? We live that exceptionalism. We wear it like a coat, and still it is missed by so many.
Exceptional? Yes. Perfect? Far from it, but there is still no country that has done more good for so much of this planet’s populace. If you know of one, please tell us so that we can then emulate them.
The Climate Discussion Continues
This article: http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/12/31/climate-caution-and-precaution/ is one of the better articles describing an approach to handling the impacts of Global Warming.
Its main points are arguments against using the Precautionary Principle versus what he describes: “If you do care about CO2 and think it is teh eeeevil, you should be out promoting your “favorite no-regrets option. Because whether or not CO2 is a danger as people claim, if you do that you can be sure that you are not just pouring money down a bottomless hole with very poor odds of success. That’s the real Precautionary Principle.”
In the comments someone recommends applying the procautionary and not the precautionary principle. Good advice, I think.
Rdan,
How about having a thread for predictions for 2010 and results from last years predictions.