Crouching Lieberman, Smoking Gun
I don’t pretend to know Joe Lieberman’s motivation, but it’s working to perfection if his goal is to divide Party leaders (Obama, Reid, etc.) from the Democratic progressive base. I don’t remember seeing this level of outrage from movement progressives before, and I wonder if the only possible way to quell it is to secure Snowe’s vote for reform and then remove Lieberman from his chairmanship. I’m not necessarily advocating that, but many people (including many on the Hill) believe that he is playing us for chumps (not waiting for the CBO score of the Medicare buy-in, opposing something he advocated a couple of months ago), and there need to be consequences. It’s not an easy decision, though, and I don’t envy Reid.
Let me help this Hill staffer out, because I am suspecting Joe’s motivation is as clear as A B C, or more precisely M L R. More below the fold. Why did buy-in become a deal breaker? Why did the CBO score no longer make a difference? Maybe because that was not the issue at all. Lets take a trip in the Way-Back Machine.
Back at the end of July I suggested that the most important section of the House version of the Health Care Bill had simply been overlooked and that its existence made apparent weaknesses of the bill go away and fully justified (from their perspective) insurance company resistance to the bill even as it delivered to them 30 million new customers. Sec 116: Golden Bullet or Smoking Gun. Sec 116 set up a mandatory minimum Medical Loss Ratio (MLR) for each plan in the exchange and ultimately every plan in the country meaning that private insurance would have to learn to live on a diet. All of their in house expenses from advertising to executive salaries to profit would have to come out of a fixed ratio of premium dollar to actual payments to providers with that ratio set by the Health Choices Commissioner. It was pretty clear to me then that private insurers would see this as the smoking gun that would ultimately would force them to leave the health insurance market in search of weaker game to prey on (because once you remove the opportunity to make fat profits by denying care what the hell fun is there?) Making Sec 116 Target One.
My fears were realized. While the HELP version of the bill had a stricter version, it was nowhere to be seen in the Senate Finance Chairman’s Mark. And while both the House Speaker’s and Majority Leader’s versions of the bill had some of the relevant language in each case it no longer applied to plans offered through the Exchange but only as an interim cost control measure while the Exchange was being set up. HR 3962 as Passed: the Importance of Close Reading. HR 3962 had alternate mechanisms to ensure profit controls, but they lacked the elegance and certainty of Sec 116, on this important issue the private insurers had won.
Well a funny thing happened on the way to Victory Lane. In the course of private insurance supporters attempts to eliminate any trace of a government competitor in the form of a public option something happened. At the last minute progressives apparently in the midst of caving to every demand inserted one provision. They brought back the slain Sec 116 with a vengence by insisting that they get in exchange for the PO a MLR of 90% which was about the same ratio as insurance companies were getting in 1996 but a good ten points higher than they get now, and much higher than their current target. After all Aetna just announced plans to drop 360,000 people from its roles explicitly to get their margins up by getting their MLR down. Aetna Forcing 600,000-Plus To Lose Coverage In Effort To Raise Profits
“The pricing we put in place for 2009 turned out to not really be what we needed to achieve the results and margins that we had historically been delivering,” said chairman and CEO Ron Williams. “We view 2010 as a repositioning year, a year that does not fully reflect the earnings potential of our business. Our pricing actions should have a noticeable effect beginning in the first quarter of 2010, with additional financial impact realized during the remaining three quarters of the year.”
This was Dec 4th, an open admission that Aetna’s MLR was too high for stockholder comfort and that forcing 600,000 people off their rolls and so perhaps not being able to afford coverage anywhere being just the price they had to pay for profits.
News of a requirement that all companies had to meet an MLR of 90% must have come as quite the shock to CEO Williams and all his colleagues in the industry, it blew a huge hole in a business plan that relied on only insuring people who were unlikely to actually make claims and yet would be willing to pay higher premiums just in case. Yet it put them in a bind. How do you actively propose the bill simply on the basis that it would cut your profit margin? Simple. You just get your barking seals in Congress to claim that it is all a matter of principle, that an opt-in Medicare plan that you enthusiastically endorsed three months ago was now a deal-breaker, all without any of the letters R L or M dropping from your lips.
A lot of what is otherwise inexplicable about Lieberman and even Snowe’s current stance falls into place when you rearrange those letters into M-L-R. Don’t wait for the score, don’t insist on a full reading of the bill before passing judgement, insurance companies know all that they need to know for an all-out drive to kill the bill: “MLR 90%”.
What we now have in the Senate bill is higher taxes, higher healthcare insurance prices, a requirement to buy from private insurance providers, fines/prison if said buys are not forthcoming, higher costs, reduced competition, and little perceived advantage to the average voter.
And, y’all question the Tea Party movement? It appears that the counter movement will actually join hands in throwing these useless, clueless, money grubbing drones out of office.
You wanted him. Now we all have to live with him. Obama support 50% and GW 44% ( and rising.) The Prez you love to hate is looking better and better! OH! And you’re blaming Lieberman?
Sheesh!
And, why is the average voter confused over the Dem policy direction?
http://cohort11.americanobserver.net/latoyaegwuekwe/multimediafinal.html
“Fines/prisons”
Bullshit. Representative Camp, ranking member of Ways and Means solicited a letter from the Joint Commission on Taxation on what would be the maximum penalties for violations of tax law THEORETICALLY possible from enactment of the Pelosi Health Care Bill. The bill itself has ZERO references to specific penalties, still less any that would specify jail time, just that violations would make you subject to current law. It turns out that the range of possible penalties runs from civil fines (which were per JCT actually applied 692,000 times in 2008) to in the most egregious of cases to misdeameanors or even felony charges the latter of which (but not only the section of law applicable to this sub-type) could range up to five years in jail and a $250,000 fine. At which Camp’s office released a press release to the effect that Pelosi wanted to put people who refused to buy health insurance into jail for five years and fine them $250,000. Which was a deliberate attempt to create a right wing talking point designed to allow idiots and liars to spread the message.
CoRev you are not an idiot. STFU. Because if you actually read the letter it says nothing to actually support the subsequent press release from Camp’s office.
http://camp.house.gov/webreturn/?url=http://republicans.waysandmeans.house.gov/UploadedFiles/JCTletter110509.pdf
http://camp.house.gov/News/DocumentSingle.aspx?DocumentID=153810
PELOSI: Buy a $15,000 Policy or Go to Jail
JCT Confirms Failure to Comply with Democrats’ Mandate Can Lead to 5 Years in Jail
Probably because he is listening to lying shits like you.
Bruce,
You’re right the 90% MLR requirement is a death sentence to private health insurance companies. Given that their current profit margins are 5% with a 80% MLR, they would have to cut about 10% out of their costs, and you have to assume that the companies have hundreds of billions of dollars in pure waste for that to not put it out of business. It is inconcievable that all the private companies in a highly competitive business would have that much “fat.”
I thought the goal here was to set up a public option that would pick up people who weren’t able to afford, or for other reasons didn’t purchase, private insurance. Not to put private insurers out of business.
I fail to see how this is lifting of any kind in response to posts. This taunt doesn’t even make sense as a piece of logic. Kindly stop, or it becomes moderated. If you have a concern spell it out for the post content, otherwise please do not comment in such a manner. I will moderate.
Please note that the health insurer’s putatative 5% margin (their figures) is _after_ salaries and advertising.
If those highly-compensated CEOs are incapable of cutting the fat expense ratio they’ve enjoyed in the existing cartel to meet a 90% MLR, then they’re overpaid.
The dilemma I think is that health insurance reform has substituted for health care reform, and little is being done to actually look at costs in relation to benefits. There are all sorts of issues to discuss that have not surfaced due to the nature of this business…but if costs continue, the boomer expense will be on the low side comapred to gen xers and such paying for their own insurance.
The intergenerational thing is a myth given current increases in costs. The system is a runaway out of anyone’s control behemoth.
The 5% needs defining for sure.
How about GAAP and the SEC definition? Here is United Health: http://finance.yahoo.com/q/is?s=UNH&annual
Total Revenue: $81.2 billion, Net Income: 3.0 billion. Net Margin: 4%
Sammy they had little problem hitting that 90% MLR back in the 1990s. And the key is not profits but stock price and executive compensation set by that price rather than nominal profits. Insurance companies need to explain what value they added by driving MLR down to sub 80% and in promising stockholders to get in down further.
Bruce – “This was Dec 4th, an open admission that Aetna’s MLR was too high for stockholder comfort and that forcing 600,000 people off their rolls and so perhaps not being able to afford coverage anywhere being just the price they had to pay for profits.”
The Aetna decisions were announced on 29 October.
Amednews didn’t report on this matter until 30 November, and Huffington Post picked it up on 4 December. The souce referencing for both articles was tied directly to the 29 October announcements by Aetna during their earnings conference call.
Aetna Inc. Q3 2009 Earnings Conference Call
October 29, 2009
http://seekingalpha.com/article/169904-aetna-inc-q3-2009-earnings-conference-call?page=1
.
Bruce – “At the last minute progressives apparently in the midst of caving to every demand inserted one provision. They brought back the slain Sec 116 with a vengence by insisting that they get in exchange for the PO a MLR of 90% which was about the same ratio as insurance companies were getting in 1996 but a good ten points higher than they get now, and much higher than their current target.”
Aetna’s full-year outlook for MLR is 85.5% as of 29 October 2009. Third quarter numbers: total medical benefit ratio 85.6%, Medicaid 85.6%, and Medicare 85.4%.
Which healthcare bill are you citing for the 90% MLR figure?
Howard Dean has had enough. So have I.
“This is an insurance companies’ dream, this bill.”
Dean: Health Bill ‘Not Worth Passing’
December 16, 2009 11:37 AM
http://blogs.abcnews.com/george/2009/12/dean-health-bill-not-worth-passing.html
Howard Dean: Health Care Bill ‘Bigger Bailout for the Insurance Industry Than AIG’
Dec. 16, 2009
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/HealthCare/howard-dean-health-care-bill-bigger-bailout-insurance/story?id=9349392
Howard Dean Steps Up Attacks on Health Care Compromise
December 16, 2009 11:09 AM
http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/12/16/politics/politicalhotsheet/entry5986348.shtml
Howard Dean: Scrap the Senate Health Bill
December 15, 2009 5:04 PM
http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/12/15/politics/politicalhotsheet/entry5983608.shtml
.
Bruce – “And the key is not profits but stock price and executive compensation set by that price rather than nominal profits. Insurance companies need to explain what value they added by driving MLR down to sub 80% and in promising stockholders to get in down further.”
Aetna’s third quarter conference call disputes your claim. I recommend a careful read of the transcript, including the Q&A. Profits are the key. Now and always.
Dan, please specify who the moderate/or else message is for!
2008: Revenue $81.2 billion Gross Profit $6.2 billion Operating Income $5.2 billion Net Income $2.9 billion
2007: Revenue $75.4 billion Gross Profit $8.6 billion Operating Income $7.8 billion Net Income $4.6 billion
Meaning that even using Sammy’s identification of ‘Profit’ to mean ‘Net income’ and not ‘Gross profit’ (which figure he helpfully managed to skip over) you get a result of 6% for 2007. And higher than that in 2006 though that seems distorted by some one time event. But using Sammy’s own source Gross Profits in 2008 were 7.6% and in 2007 were 11.4%.
Maybe somebody will do us the favor or explaining why we should be using ‘Net income’ rather than ‘Operating income’ or ‘Gross Profit’ for this equation
It was announced as an element in the Team of 10 compromise agreed to last weekend. The actual text would be in the unreleased bill currently under CBO scoring.
http://wonkroom.thinkprogress.org/2009/12/14/cbo-90-mlr/
“A compromise provision in the Senate health care bill that requires insurers to rebate beneficiaries if they fail to spend 90% of premium dollars on medical care could add new costs to the federal government, limiting health reform’s deficit reductions. Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D-WV) inserted the new medical loss ration (MLR) requirement (for insurers participating in the small or individual group markets) during the Gang of 10 public option negotiations, “
I don’t necessarily disagree. But Dean’s opposition has exactly zero to do with the subject of this post which is instead to suggest a motive for Lieberman. What is your point?
Maybe somebody will do us the favor or explaining why we should be using ‘Net income’ rather than ‘Operating income’ or ‘Gross Profit’ for this equation.
Because they have to pay interest and taxes. Those are the only things subtracted from Gross Income. They have to pay those or they’d be forced into bankruptcy. They are expenses to the owners/shareholders like any other cost.
Price Waterhouse has done an independent review of the Senate Healthcare bill. On caveat is which version of the bill is being reviewed. It can be found here (Warning PDF) : http://www.politico.com/static/PPM116_pwc2.html
It’s summary findings are below.
Key Findings
Well I don’t care whether it was intended for me or not, Dan can do what he wants, it is his blog. I do not consider you an honest interlocutor, instead I see you as a propagandist quite happy to spread a talking point deliberately solicited by Dave Camp which started showing up on right wing blogs within the day. The whole Pelosi Bill=Jail is the kind of crap you expect to see on Glenn Beck. And do. You are smart enough to understand that no one is going to go to federal prison for failing to pay a $750 fine. Moreover it is clear from the JCT letter that the range of penalties referred to apply not to failure to pay the fine, which would just subject you to a tax lien, but to deliberate falsification of your tax form. Rep Camp went cherry picking, got one that was sufficiently ripe that he knew right wing bloggers could bite and swallow it and then reguritate it wherever they went. Many people on the right were stupid enough to fall for it. But you are not stupid. The conclusion follows from there.
Plus your link doesn’t prove anything, not do you attempt to show that it does. When I look at the map it tells me that it kind of sucks to live in Indian Country because you have the highest rates of unemployment in the country. Which is something we knew long before Democrats took power. Your implicit attempt to sell this as some consequence of Democratic policy is itself bullshit. I just shortened the explanation a little.
Dan e-mails me pretty much every day and isn’t shy about lowering the hammer if he feels it necessary.
CoRev,
What we now have in the Senate bill is higher taxes, higher healthcare insurance prices, a requirement to buy from private insurance providers, fines/prison if said buys are not forthcoming, higher costs, reduced competition, and little perceived advantage to the average voter.
And what have the Republicans done to improve on this situation? Most of the bad aspects of the bill have GOP fingerprints all over them. The GOP and conservative Democrats oppose importation of drugs even though this would lower costs. The GOP and conservative Democrats have proposed a couple of alternative bills that CBO has scored as costing significantly more than more liberal leaning House and Senate versions. And just about every economist on both the right and left agrees that mandatory healthcare participation is a sine quo non for cost control. The problem is that GOP and conservative Democratic politicians would rather tell bedtime stories to clueless constituents that don’t know any better. And the GOP and conservative Democrats talk a good game about increasing competition, but every chance they have to prove their commitment to competition they always manage to find some excuse to vote against competition. They oppose a public option as competition. They oppose exemptions to anti-trust laws. They offering people a menu of private plans. Instead they offer some lame, sorry ass version of interstate “competition” that would clearly lead to even greater industry consolidation over the long run. As to what the average voter perceives, the real problem is that most voters mistakenly believe that they have health insurance. The rude awakening doesn’t happen until they actually have to make a claim. I can’t help it if most voters are nitwits.
How does it dispute my claim? Why are profits the key? Given that we have the same problem with non-profits?
For about the billionth time your insistence that a link is an argument and that it is the responsibility of the reader to extract what seems self-evident to you is kind of offensive particularly when it implicitly demands I spend lengthy periods reading often hundreds of pages of text trying to figure out what your point was.
I recommend you carefully read the transcript and identify the key paragraphs that YOU find important rather than sending me on an Easter Egg hunt. If you have a point make it, I don’t take homework assignments from you.
The timing of the actual announcement is not important. What is important is that it is an open admission that the goal of the company is not to provide coverage to those who need it but instead to maximize sharefholder return by deliberately forcing down MLR.
I believe that back in the day most insurance was provided on a mutual basis making management a fiduciary for the insured. Instead companies like Aetna have turned that model on its head.
Bruce, I am happy to say Dan does not email me daily, and I don’t remember him lowering the hammer, although it is easily possible.
OK, drop the contentious jail term issue and discuss the others. You have yet to show how any of your claims re: Lieberman are supported by the article and or any other evidence.
My point was to show that this bill has become a failed abortion. One that both sides are finding common ground to request starting over. It appears that no one likes it but Obama, Pelosi (maybe holding her nose) and Reid in his desperation.
What are the goals of this current bill?
Bruce,
You and your Moveon.org bretheren thought yourself so powerfull after driving Joe Lieberman from the democrat party. And look at you now, yelling, cursing, angry, and frustrated. I call it justice.
The Senate plan now looks more and more like what we have in Massachusetts with the most significant part being the manditory coverage. Prices are not going down here, neither is Energency room use.
Slugs,
And what have the Republicans done to improve on this situation?
They’ve tried to kill the bill. This thing is either going down now or after the Republicans retake the congress.
Also, since the democrats gamed the CBO scoring system their claims that the bill is self funding in the long term is off the mark.
Bruce,
Thanks. Yes, I found that a few minutes ago. The way I understand it the 90% MLR would only be in effect until 2014. And the CBO statements appear to have wounded if not killed that approach.
http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2009/12/14/there-goes-the-rest-of-the-grand-public-option-%e2%80%9ccompromise%e2%80%9d-losing-the-medical-loss-ratio/
Bruce,
You made a phony claim. Period. The transcript is loaded with discussions about profit margins. Apparently, you have no experience with conference calls provided by for-profit corporations to key investor groups. Projected profits are the key issue.
Bruce,
If the timing of the annoucement wasn’t important, why did you erroneously cite 4 Dec as the date of the annoucement?
This isn’t the first time that Aetna has repriced its products resulting in a significant decline in customers. Their pricing actions are focused on profit margins. All of that is explained in the conference call transcript. You know, the one you are too lazy or too busy to read.
Its the Democratic Party. And Joe Lieberman caucuses with the Party, he wasn’t driven out of it. In fact Party leadership went out of its way even before the election to pander to him.
I don’t belong to MoveOn.
MG you need a lesson in thinking.
My post is about the entire insurance industry and not the specifics of the conference call.
That is not responsive to my question. Can you actually point to an SEC definition that equates ‘profits’ to ‘net income’ and opposed to ‘gross profits’? And you are introducing a new term in ‘Gross Income’ are you talking ‘Gross Profits’ or ‘Operating Income’ or something else?
Because I made an honest mistake? The first paragraph of source led me to believe that the decision was pending “Health insurance giant Aetna is planning to force up to 650,000 clients to drop their coverage next year as it seeks to raise additional revenue to meet profit expectations.” I missed or forget two words in he next paragraph “late October”. Nor do I see why an error of some five weeks makes any difference to the argument unless you are so anal as to be focused on details (hey you said ‘lazy’, if we are going to be talking personality characteristics I might as well call it as I see it).
And it is the fact that their pricing actions are focused on profit margins is the problem here, doubly confirming that by detailed reading of the transcript gets me nothing. Plus the whole point is off topic to the post.
And I am too busy to allow you to set my reading list.
I don’t think that is right. The current Senate and House Bills limit their MLR requirements to the period before the establishment of the exchange where presumedly they would be replaced by the price competition set by the Public Option. Now that the PO is out of the equation it would make sense to make these controls permanent rather than relying on the contracting process. We will see when the actual bill is released.
Bruce,
You’re the one that cited Aetna. In fact, it’s the only healthcare corporation mentioned in the main post.
You cited a specific statement from Aetna’s 29 October conference call as a foundation for your main post. Yet, you didn’t know when the conference call was conducted. And apparently, you don’t know what else was discussed in the conference call. MLR 90% wasn’t an issue on 29 October, so your Aetna reference and quote as well as the 4 December supposed date were irrelevant to your personal speculation.
CoRev,
This report is old news. It had a shelf life of about 36 hours before it was shot through to the point where it looked like Swiss cheese. Turns out that most of the assumptions in the report were based on erroneous provisions that the sponsors of the report (the GOP) told Price Waterhouse would be part of the report but were not in fact ever in any part of the bill. Like I said, the think tanks had a turkey shoot with this report. You were snookered.
I think we’re long past the point where Harry Reid needs to start calling some bluffs. That means hauling out the cots and telling Senators that there will be no Xmas recess unless and until the GOP and Lieberman agree to end the filibuster. Make ’em sweat. The argument that a filibuster would impede other Congressional business does not impress me very much because almost no business is getting done due to the threat of a filibuster. The GOP has been setting new records on the use of filibusters to block every piece of legislation. Make ’em pay. Make the old men stand in the well of the Senate and read from the phone book. Turn on the C-SPAN cameras so everyone can watch grown men read from the phone book while the rest of us are opening presents from Santa Claus on Xmas morning. Let them read from the phone book while the rest of us watch college bowl games. Let them read from the phone book while we all watch Dick Clark make a fool out of himself once again on New Year’s Eve. Make ’em pay. Harry Reid needs to start calling some bluffs.
From about.com re: Gross Profits:
Gross Profit
The gross profit is the total revenue subtracted by the cost of generating that revenue. In other words, gross profit is sales minus cost of goods sold. It tells you how much money a business would have made if it didn’t pay any other expenses such as salary, income taxes, office supplies, electricity, water, rent, etc.
When you look at an income statement, GAAP rules require that gross profit be broken out and clearly labeled as its own line so you can’t miss it. Still, you should know how to calculate it for yourself so here is the formula:
Total Revenue – Cost of Goods Sold (COGS) = Gross Profit
Sammy is right. After gross profits, at a minimum comes interest expense and taxes. 2008 Operating Income of $5.2 bn and 2007 of $7.8 bn according to SEC documents, is also before interest expense and income taxes.
Also, comparisons to 1996 are questionable, unless acknowledged that insurers earn money on their investment portfolios as well as on premiums and thus adjusts for the 10-year treasury (for example) which averaged around 6.5% in 1996 is now around 3.6%
Cantab,
What evidence do you have that CBO “gamed” the scoring system? The CBO’s claim was that the bill reduced the deficit over 10 years from where it would be without the bill.
2slugs:
I was just getting ready to answer CoRev and you have beaten me to it. That insurance companiues would commission a consulting firm to audit the Senate bill (Baccus?) was enough to sway me me.
“America’s Health Insurance Plans engaged PricewaterhouseCoopers (PwC) to examine the impact of
four components of the health reform bill being proposed by the Senate Finance Committee”
I agree, no Christmas for the bastards and take away their healthcare insurance since we are subsidizing the majority of it. Of course, they are a bunch of millionaires anyway and can afford full price insurance. As far as the Senator from Aetna and the insurance capital of the US, Lieberman; he obviously is going into retirement and has nothing to lose. Contributions from Insurance companies have been one of his bigger campaign supports. Now if we had a president with some balls who would go on public TV and demand it; perhaps, people would swing behind him and the push. Pretty please isn’t going to work with these under worked desk jockeys
Price/Waterhouse does not do ‘independent’ studies. It is a consultant. For example on page 2 of the document you get the following: “This report has been prepared pursuant to an engagement between PriceWaterhouse Cooper LLP and its Client”. It’s client was AHIP which used the Report to sand bag the White House immediately before the vote on the Senate Finance Committee Bill.
http://tpmlivewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/10/ahip-releases-reportphp.php?ref=fpblg
http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/10/ahip-gave-white-house-no-notice-of-pending-report-despite-meeting-last-wed.php?ref=mp
Moreover as 2slugbaits points out its results are quite dicey, with PWC admitting they didn’t include certain cost savings
http://healthaffairs.org/blog/2009/10/29/the-ahip-report-beneath-questionable-numbers-is-a-serious-concern/
Moreover it is a score of the Baucus Chairman’s mark from October and not of the Bill introduced by Reid and now substantially modified by a series of amendments and an as yet unreleased compromise itself further amended.
AHIP is not a reliable source of data nor are the work product of any of its hired consultants, like many such they return the result they are paid to do.
2slugs and run must never have seen ‘Mr. Smith Goes to Washington’
“What are the goals of this current bill?”
I don’t know. I haven’t seen it.
The article was included to show that the primary goal of at least Aetna and presumedly other companies is to drive down MLR which is what Williams statement means. We have evidence that Lieberman was actually pushing Opt-In Medicare 3 months ago prior to suddenly coming out Sunday and declaring it a deal breaker. Leaving some people scratching their heads over his motivation, hence the opening quote.
Given that I suggested that the MLR provisions was perhaps the most important component of the bill in my late July post, expressed concern some months later that it had been restricted to the pre-exchange period, and that it had seemingly reappeared right at the end of the process and immediately before Lieberman came out against an Opt-In provision he supported just months before I am suggesting that a logical cause of his pivot is in reality that reintroduction of MLR and not the objection he states.
I have no magic x-ray to show me Lieberman’s thinking, I am just trying to make sense out of this.
sammy,
I’ve seen Mr Smith. Mr Smith was a friend of mine. Sen Lieberman is no Mr Smith.
Thanks for the explanation. I would just note that Sammy was using neither Gross Profits or Operating Income and in fact seemingly made a point of ignoring them in his own calculations and instead using Net Income. If you follow his link you will see that both Gross Profits and Operating Income are there and labeled as such. Sammy makes the claim that under SEC definitions Profit=Net Income and NOT Gross Profit. Is this actually true? Because if we use Operating Income you get returns that in a bad year for stocks were still at 6% rather than the 4% he calculates.
Oh and the comparison to 1996 was on MLR and not profit and loss and since I believe MLR is strictly the ratio of premium dollar to claims paid I wouldn’t think it would be affected by investment earnings one way or another.
What evidence do you have that CBO “gamed” the scoring system
The CBO is the gamee not the gamer.
Bruce,
Its the Democratic Party.
Does that make you a democratic rather than a democrat?
And Joe Lieberman caucuses with the Party, he wasn’t driven out of it.
Of course he was driven out since he used to be a democrat, the ultra left funded a serious challenge to him, he lost, became an independent and was elected by a coalition or moderate democrats and republicans. So he owes republicans and democrats that he a peronal bond with him.
In fact Party leadership went out of its way even before the election to pander to him.
They obviously want something from him and most democrats in congress don’t represent the ultra left.
I don’t belong to MoveOn.
Sometimes when you get extra aggressive you seem to more belong there than here.
Sammy,
I know profit margin to mean: Net Income / Revenue
Since we’re blaming profit margins for driving up healthcare costs I wonder why we don’t also blame corporate taxes. The taxes take a part of the premiums and diverts it to the general fund. It does not go to pay for healthcare to those paying the premiums.
2slugs and run, why the anger? Nearly everyone admits this bill is a total mess. Why the rush to pass something from the Senate that will be useless? It will then have to go through conference committee where it will bastardized even more.
Believe me when I say your anger is matched and most probably far out numbered by conservatives. Polls show anything from 53 – 61% do not want this bill, and that number is rising. The bill is bad enough, but the machinations used by the Dems and to a lesser extent the Repubs is off putting.
What amazes me is the apparent rush of Dems to jump off the political cliff that will be 2010.
With the poor quality of this bill and the growing voter distaste, why not just table it and start over with a bi-partisan approach? That might even save the Dems for 2010. To do less is AFAICS is running down the train tracks head long into the oncoming locomotive.
cantab says: Since we’re blaming profit margins for driving up healthcare costs I wonder why we don’t also blame corporate taxes. The taxes take a part of the premiums and diverts it to the general fund. It does not go to pay for healthcare to those paying the premiums.
Good point, United Health paid $1.647 Billion in taxes. The top 5 executives that people have been whipped up into hating as a cause of high costs, earned $25 million in compensation { https://www.sendd.com/~webdrop/ezproxy/200904/58478%5F002%5FUnited%5FBMK.pdf, (page 39)} or 1.5% of the amount sent in taxes.
Is there a movement by the Govt to pitch in to lessen the high cost of health insurance by cutting taxes on the health insurance industry????? I didn’t think so.
Oh Sammy stop it! You know it’s all about the emotion and not the numbers 1.5% is still way more than I ma…, errhhh, umm, they deserved!
I’m sorry folks, but that is how the wage argument comes across. Just envy!
Bruce, if you didn’t know why Lieberman was involved, then why take the pot shots? It diluted your message, and clearly set me off on another track. Regardless the overall point is still focused on this abortion of a bill that continues to worsen daily.
BTW, the point you were trying to make appears to have also been misplayed, so the whole purpose of this article appears to be a rant against … Lieberman, the bill, the moderate Dems, or whoever. By your response to me, you were obviously angered.
CoRev,
The Republicans have even less credibility than the Democrats. The GOP hasn’t contributed a single constructive idea. And that’s no surprise since their only intent was to block anything that Obama proposed. But then again, treason is nothing new for conservatives from the Old Confederacy.
Your argument seems to be that since the GOP has succeeded in taking a decent bill and turning it into a disaster, therefore we should ditch everything and reward the GOP so that they can make an even bigger mess in 2010. Excuse me if that sounds a little insane.
Why the rush to pass something from the Senate that will be useless? It will then have to go through conference committee where it will bastardized even more.
Not necessarily. One looming strategy is to just push through a Senate bill and then have the House pass the Senate bill “as is.” That takes away the GOP’s opportunity to further screw it up during conference.
Also, the GOP is playing a dangerous game here. They are pretty much betting everything on a HUGE win in 2010. If they fall short in 2010, then things look pretty bleak for them i 2012. The GOP’s only chance to make gains is in a low turnout election. Presidential elections probably leave the GOP in the wilderness for the next several election cycles. The math just doesn’t break right for the GOP in Presidential election years.
Bruce,
Your theory about Lieberman’s motives certainly sounds plausible and it’s well researched. You make a good case. One thing that still bothers me is that this isn’t the only issue in which Lieberman has demonstrated a certain amout of mental instability. I think it was Emerson who once quipped that consistency is the hobgoblin of a weak mind. My fear is that Lieberman may be taking that advice to heart just a bit too enthusiastically. But your theory could surely be put to the test by the Democratic leadership. Just propose one bill without the tighter MLR provision, see what he says and then propose the same bill except with a relaxed MLR provision. If he takes the bait, let the world know about it. Then strip him of his chairmanship and have Pelosi reassign his parking space.
Bruce,
Honest mistakes are fine. Particularly when they are corrected.
I have a problem, though, with the manner in which you’re still trying to spin your oversight that resulted in your erroneous statement that all of this occurred on 4 December, implying that Aetna’s decisions were related to the proposed 90% MLR. That is simply not the case. And you haven’t corrected the error in the main post.
What you didn’t explain for the benefit of other readers is that the first paragraph of your main post reference was one sentence. The next sentence, the first sentence of the second paragraph, explained quite clearly that the Aetna position came from information extracted from its October conference call. So, you didn’t grasp the second sentence. It happens. But that oversight affects the implications in the main post regarding Aetna’s statements. Some readers do not bother to read the comments, relying only on the accuracy of the main posts.
Not satisfied, you want to still complain about links and reading lists. That’s a foolish and phony move, considering that you are the source of the information and related embedded links. You whine about someone else’s cited reading list or link when, in fact, what I cited is from a reference in your main post. Apparently, you didn’t bother to read your reference and its embedded links with any particular care or interest. Yet, you cite such references in a main post and then complain when a reader mentions one and cites simple facts extracted from or related to such a main post reference. That’s ridiculous.
Moreover, you act as though you do not yet understand why the actual date of the Aetna conference call has no bearing whatsoever on the speculation that you outlined and made a key point in your main post. Aetna’s decisions had nothing to do with a proposed government mandated MLR of 90%.
MLR 90% was not an issue on 29 October 2009. The decisions of Aetna explained in its 29 October conference call did not wrap around Senator Rockefeller’s request to add-on MLR 90% in the invisible Senate healthcare bill, all of which occurred at a later date.
For the benefit of other readers:
Aetna Forcing 600,000-Plus To Lose Coverage In Effort To Raise Profits
digg Huffpost – Aetna Forcing 600,000-Plus To Lose Coverage In Effort To Raise Profits
First Posted: 12- 4-09 10:57 AM
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/12/04/aetna-forcing-600000-plus_n_380130.html
“Health insurance giant Aetna is planning to force up to 650,000 clients to drop their coverage next year as it seeks to raise additional revenue to meet profit expectations.”
“In a third-quarter earnings conference call in late October, officials at Aetna announced that in an effort to improve on a less-than-anticipated profit margin in 2009, they would be raising prices on their consumers in 2010. The insurance giant predicted that the company would subsequently lose between 300,000 and 350,000 members next year from its national account as well as another 300,000 from smaller group accounts.”
Bruce – “And it is the fact that their pricing actions are focused on profit margins is the problem here, doubly confirming that by detailed reading of the transcript gets me nothing. Plus the whole point is off topic to the post.”
You’re the person who previously engaged Sammy in a discussion about profits.
You stated at 2:51:45 PM on Wednesday, “Sammy they had little problem hitting that 90% MLR back in the 1990s. And the key is not profits but stock price and executive compensation set by that price rather than nominal profits. Insurance companies need to explain what value they added by driving MLR down to sub 80% and in promising stockholders to get in down further.”
Are you saying that discussion was off topic? If so, I disagree. Profits are the primary issue of the for-profit healthcare insurance corporations. Pretending that healthcare corporate profits are off topic when discussing MLR thresholds is unrealistic. Time to come in from Lalaland.
Slugs,
Bruce,
Your theory about Lieberman’s motives certainly sounds plausible and it’s well researched. You make a good case.
It might be a good time to lie down and put an ice pack on your head.
I don’t see “Crouching Jew” as Bruce’s best work.
After dutifully reading through all of the above it becomes clear, once again and once too often, that our two party system of government is seriously flawed. We have two sides of the AB participants disowning the same legislation for different reasons, each claiming to expose significant weaknesses in that legislation. So what else is new? Lieberman is actually the perfect example of all that is wrong with the the Senate. The leadership is little less obnoxious in their dealing with the issues raised. Remember, good cop, bad cop all playing on the same side and seeming to be at odds with one another. That’s our Senate and the House is little different though not as blatant. What’s a voter to do? With only half of a brain the duplicity is obvious. Why anyone would seek to take sides in this debate strikes me as peculiar.
The result is that we end up with no true health finance reform. Health care cost is another issue. They’re both part of a big problem, but have to be resolved independently. In the mean time millions of Americans are one step away from a health care financial crisis. The ones without insurance know it and suffer a lack of care. The ones with coverage are often unable to predict the crisis that may await them, as those being dropped by Aetna are about to experience. There are many different ways in which our health system financing needs to be reformed. That our congressional representatives can’t seem to find a way that is genuinely in the interests of the public rather than the finance industry is a sad commentary on our one party system. Corporate America is well represented in the halls of Congress from both sides of the aisle.
I was referring to Igor Volsky’s statement at ThinkProgress when I stated, “The way I understand it the 90% MLR would only be in effect until 2014.” That’s from the link you cited which I had already read.
If the final bill maintains a provision requiring MLR 90%, I find it highly unlikely that the ratio will be permanent and not subject to review and revision by the lead administrator of the healthcare exchange program.
Moreover, the 13 December letter from CBO raises key issues regarding budgetary treatment of MLRs.
CBO: 90% Medical Loss Ratio Would Make Private Insurance A Government Program
By Igor Volsky on Dec 14th, 2009 at 3:30 pm
http://wonkroom.thinkprogress.org/2009/12/14/cbo-90-mlr/
Budgetary Treatment of Proposals to Regulate Medical Loss Ratios
CBO
December 13, 2009
https://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/107xx/doc10731/MLR_and_budgetary_treatment.pdf
Bruce,
Are you just playing dumb? Or are you really that dumb?
CoRev:
I am sure by now I have a special trash can in Senator Stabenow and Senator Levin’s office with my name on both. Stabenow helped pass the rescent law for banking that failed to have an interest rate limit on it . . . she has a special place in my heart for lack of empathy for the middle and lower class. It is no dark secret that much of the Senate is indeed a millionaire’s club who make a lot of noise and fail to make a stand of any substance. I am holding there feet to the fire the same as I did Senator Durbin at “Showdown in Chicago.” No free rides chuckie!
I am not pleased by this bill; but, I also know that once the bill passes the next two years will be spent in fleshing out the skeleton. This is just the passage of healthcare reform with much more to come. If this was the same GOP of early Bush era, there would have been “NO” discussion and it would have been passed. Its not though and the swifties, lobbyists, and smoke and mirrors are coming out of the closets to pander to the public’s fears.
Jack said: “The result is that we end up with no true health finance reform. Health care cost is another issue. ” But saying health care cost is another issue does not recognize that this bill significantly raises costs, through tax increases, reduced competition, and increasing risk for providers by requiring them to take on pre-existing condition without strings. A horrible bill for all, but …. I guess Dem politicians, No not even them because many will not be reelected.
Cantab:
I will post to this to lock in your comment
Run,
So you agree with me that a little antisemitism slipped out with Bruce’s column?
Oh and the comparison to 1996 was on MLR and not profit and loss and since I believe MLR is strictly the ratio of premium dollar to claims paid I wouldn’t think it would be affected by investment earnings one way or another.
Companies have an equity cost of capital. While this should be dependent on the risk-free rate, i.e., the lower the reference/treasury rate, the lower the cost of capital is, in practice it doesn’t typically work this way. Investors are anchored to historical ROEs. So for insurers to generate the same ROE as historic in a low interest rate environment, requires a higher “underwriting profit margin”, i.e., profit margin on premiums. The MLR isn’t affected by investment earnings, per se, but for the company to generate the same ROE, the MLR needs to be correlated with available investment yields, i.e, high investment yields ~ higher MLR and visa versa.
CoRev,
this bill significantly raises costs, through tax increases, reduced competition, and increasing risk for providers by requiring them to take on pre-existing condition without strings.
All three of those are dubious claims. There is nothing in the bill that raises costs beyond the baseline. The CBO has shown that over 10 years it reduces costs by about $100B. Strike one. The bill does not reduce competition. There isn’t any competition today, so it would be a little hard to reduce that any further. I’ll grant you that the bill does not introduce new competition, but that’s largely because the GOP and a few neanderthal Democratic Senators fought tooth and nail against competition. Strike two. Increasing risk for providers does not mean that there is more risk overall. You seem to think that the reason we have a healthcare system is so that health insurance companies have a way of making money. That’s not the point. The “value added” by insurance is that it reduces total risk. The health insurance industry today does not do that; it simply concentrates risk in specific groups and then excludes that group from coverage. Excluding risky groups does not reduce total costs in the system; it only shifts costs away from insurance providers and onto others. I know this is a hard concept for Republicans to understand, but cost shifting is not the same as cost saving. Strike three.
2slugbaits,
Richard Foster does not agree with you or CBO on the matter of costs. Guess you haven’t read his report.
Richard Foster report
Office of the Actuary
Center for Medicare and Medicaid Services
Subject: Estimated Financial Effects of the “Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act of 2009”
December 10, 2009
http://assets.fiercemarkets.com/public/newsletter/fiercehealthcare/foster.pdf
Medicare cuts could hurt hospitals, expert warns
December 12, 2009
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/12/11/AR2009121102792.html?hpid=topnews
.
No I was angered because your cooments were off topic and disengenuous.
On Sunday Lieberman came out and announced that the compromise reached by the Team of Ten was unacceptable because it included Opt-In Medicare. This struck some people as inexplicable and undermotivated considering his strong support for exactly that three months ago. I presented what I consider to be a plausible alternative that if true makes Lieberman a Lie-berman. You on the other hand seem to have made no effort to engage the argument presented in favor of pushing some bullshit talking points about prisons and then a bunch of ad hom shots at Obama plus some off topic points about tea partiers. And then followed that up with a link to a map that proved nothing.
You tried to hijack the thread with a combination of lies and misdirections and in the end succeeded. Which based on a few years of past experienceed me to believe you were acting with malice aforethought.
You wanted to provoke, succeeded, and then reacted with wounded innocence. That act got tired years ago, like all bullies you start with bluster and bravado and when backed down go crying to the principal.
Cantab the Right uses ‘Demoncrat’ deliberately to piss off liberals. Some of you may recognize that the origins of this were in the ad by Alex Castellanas that ‘accidentally’ had the word ‘Democratic’ rotate on screen in a way that left ‘rat’ highlighted for a few seconds, which clearly struck glibertarian fanboys as hilarious, and led to assholes being able to use the abbreviation ‘rats as shorthand. You are free to snark, after all my side doesn’t say Rethuglican by accident, but we don’t try to pull the ‘wink, wink, nudge, nudge’ approach that insists that ‘Democ-rat’ is just some slip.
This was an AHA-FHA targeted campaign.
Quick. Effective. Done.
The American Hospital Association (AHA) and the Federation of American Hospitals (FAH) are the two key groups that mounted quick campaigns to kill the Medicare Buy-in expansion option. The AHA cites information provided in the December 10 MedPAC meeting as support for killing the option. Senator Lieberman was among those targeted for killing the provision.
AHA has openly acknowledged its role. FAH has taken a lower profile, but it has the FAH Action Network which advocates five ongoing campaigns:
TELL YOUR SENATOR TO OPPOSE ATTEMPT AT CUTTING HOSPITALS
TELL YOUR SENATOR TO OPPOSE AMENDMENT TO STRIKE SELF-REFERRAL BAN
TELL YOUR SENATOR TO OPPOSE MEDICARE BUY-IN COMPROMISE
TELL YOUR SENATOR TO OPPOSE SELF-REFERRAL AMENDMENT
TELL YOUR MEMBER OF CONGRESS NOT TO SUPPORT “CARD CHECK” LEGISLATION OR ANY SO-CALLED “COMPROMISE” BILLS
Here is the key news information:
New MedPAC Data Underscore Hospital Concerns with the Medicare Buy-in Proposal
December 10th 2009
http://www.aha.org/aha/press-release/2009/091210-pr-medpac.html
Hospital, physician lobbyists fought Medicare buy-in plan
Fate of Senate proposal reflects high stakes of health-care negotiations
Wednesday, December 16, 2009
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/12/15/AR2009121505083.html?sid%3DST2009121505173&sub=AR
.
MG of course MLR 90 wasn’t on the agenda on October 29, it had yet to be suggested. What was on the agenda was the admission by an important player that they had a deliberate strategy of driving down MLR even if it meant loss of market share by making people uninsured. If I had similar illustrative examples I would have added them. (Though I don’t share your link-o-mania). You on the other hand seem determined to ignore the argument in favor of some weird fixation on a five week dating error.
Unpucker.
This was an AHA-FAH targeted campaign
Quick. Effective. Done.
The American Hospital Association (AHA) and the Federation of American Hospitals (FAH) are the two key groups that mounted quick campaigns to kill the Medicare buy-in expansion option. The AHA cites information provided in the December 10 MedPAC meeting as support for killing the option. Senator Lieberman was among those targeted for killing the provision.
AHA has openly acknowledged its role. FAH has taken a lower profile, but it has the FAH Action Network which advocates five ongoing campaigns:
TELL YOUR SENATOR TO OPPOSE ATTEMPT AT CUTTING HOSPITALS
TELL YOUR SENATOR TO OPPOSE AMENDMENT TO STRIKE SELF-REFERRAL BAN
TELL YOUR SENATOR TO OPPOSE MEDICARE BUY-IN COMPROMISE
TELL YOUR SENATOR TO OPPOSE SELF-REFERRAL AMENDMENT
TELL YOUR MEMBER OF CONGRESS NOT TO SUPPORT “CARD CHECK” LEGISLATION OR ANY SO-CALLED “COMPROMISE” BILLS
Here is the key news information:
New MedPAC Data Underscore Hospital Concerns with the Medicare Buy-in Proposal
December 10th 2009
http://www.aha.org/aha/press-release/2009/091210-pr-medpac.html
Hospital, physician lobbyists fought Medicare buy-in plan
Fate of Senate proposal reflects high stakes of health-care negotiations
Wednesday, December 16, 2009
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/12/15/AR2009121505083.html?sid%3DST2009121505173&sub=AR
.
Yes and there is good evidence that people don’t like the bill because Democrats gave up TOO MUCH. The PO still polls favorably.
Your main post implies that Aetna reacted to the proposed MLR 90% provision. That simply isn’t the case. You might re-read your main post. It is misleading.
Admission? They’re all trying to do that as MLR is monitored by major investors.
The General Fund pays for about 33% of Medicare, large percentages of SCHIPS and Medicaid, and all of VA. In addition it would be called to pay for subsidies. The notion that corporate taxes do not in fact end up paying for Health Care is nonsense.
Screw you. Crouching Lieberman is a reference to a Chinese movie, dragging in anti-semitism is a low blow even for you.
What part of Podunk do you asses live in that you don’t recognize ‘Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon’ as a cultural reference? Christ you would think I was calling him ‘Shylock of Hartford’, Project much?
Bruce, you wrote an article out of anger, that was poorly organized and researched. Then you spewed that anger over the comments when they did not follow your angry path.
The bill is a horrible mess! It is so because it does not provide what the voters want, follow the promises for which it was started, and primarily because the Dems Senators could not organize around it. Your anger is misplaced at any one Senator or group.
I realize from your earliest articles that you had high hope this bill would help you personally, but it does not. It helps no one but the Insurance providers, which were demonized by Dems from the beginning. The bill is now a piece of crap that belongs in the toilet.
Bruce,
The General Fund pays for about 33% of Medicare, large percentages of SCHIPS and Medicaid, and all of VA. In addition it would be called to pay for subsidies. The notion that corporate taxes do not in fact end up paying for Health Care is nonsense.
Of course your wrong again because the money taken away by taxes don’t go those those that paid the premiums.
Bruce,
Lieberman is not Chinese. Moreover, I don’t think he would be much good flying through the air in sword battle. I saw that movie and really don’t see the parallel to Lieberman.
I guess if you said he was like Fegan from Oliver Twist it would have been too obvious.
Antisemitism is always out there. When it shows up here I generally try to make comments to subtly put its back in its box. Regardless of if you want to admit it or not the crowd that you sometimes run with at places like daily kos and moveon.org have become increasing antisemetic over the years. What have you don’t to stand up to this type of behavior?
Higher taxes, higher insurance, and required to buy private insurance, is it not exactly what the industry, the Republicans, and the Democrats in diguise fought for? They all are against change if it is not increasing the profit of the insurance and the whole medical business complex. By my simple minded thinking Lieberman was for Medicare buy-in as long as he thought it was too good to become true and when it became a real possibility he made sure it would not become true. As far as I can tell all of the blue dogs and Lieberman are a tag team, to bring abortion in in order to stop any kind of health reform as Nelson is doing tells it all. To block abortion is more moral than providing affordable health care to millions of people? Witness how they put the rocks in the road one after another to gain time to tear down on point after another. They think to hell with the country, I want mine, whatever it is.
We owe so much to Zionism:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/dec/17/gaza-israel-invasion-children-traumatised
Lieberman is an extreme Zionist. A Zionist firster, you might say.
Cantab:
The problem is you and your distortion of Bruce’s words in an attempt to portray him in a different light. I object to your continued vile behavior and your attempts to engage in character assination to sway a discussion should not be taken lightly.
The main reason it is a mess is due to GOP tactics to block anything that does something for the uninsured and Democrat attempts to placate them. Put the blame where it belongs, for God’s sake!
CoRev,
Your rhetoric would have a more genuine ring to it if you didn’t keep jumping from one side of a fence to the other. It is becoming impossible to determine how you see the issue from its initial arguments to where it has landed. At one moment you deride the Dems. Then you suggest that insurance providers are being forced to take on too much risk. Then those same providers are too much the beneficiaries of the current form or the proposed legislation. You’re all over Obama and the Democratic Congress, but you don’t make any reference to the destructive efforts of the Republicans in both Houses, nor to their very blatant obfuscation of the issues.
I’d suggest that Howard Dean has it right. Gop to reconsiliation and use the House proposal as a template. Stop the bullshit of people like Lieberman and move on to some worth while transformation of health care financing. Insurance companies, like the investment banking community in another context, has too much influence in the process. Let them vote their own best interest, but stop them from buying the results that they want.
I haven’t counted the % here that want the health care insurance cartel to win on this issue, but if you do so, you will know the % of dupes and fools around these parts.
MG,
The last time I checked the CBO was the recognized authority for determining whether a play adds to or subtracts from the deficit. CBO’s analysis may be right or wrong, but they are the arbiters here. As to Foster’s report, note that the paper explains that the reason the believe costs will be higher is because people will start getting more medical care. In other words, they see higher costs resulting from greater use, not because of inefficiencies. That’s kind of an important quailifer. The paper also says that people will be significantly healthier. Put another way, their own numbers say that we can significantly improve people’s health for an annual net cost of less than 0.2% of GDP.
The CBO does more of a static analysis, so it’s not a surprise that the CBO’s numbers are somewhat lower. And I don’t have a problem with other folks doing a more dynamic analysis, but if you do that, then you have to start including a lot of other factors, which Foster’s report did not include. For example, Foster claims that one of the higher costs to the Treasury is due to businesses shedding health insurance coverage. Okay, but if that’s true than it also means wage incomes will go up and so will employment, which means higher income tax revenues. Foster did not account for that. And Foster did not account for higher labor productivity as employer based healthcare begins to unwind.
The last time I checked the CBO was the recognized authority for determining whether a plan adds to or subtracts from the deficit. CBO’s analysis may be right or wrong, but they are the arbiters here. As to Foster’s report, note that the paper explains that the reason they believe costs will be higher is because people will start getting more medical care. In other words, they see higher costs resulting from greater use, not because of inefficiencies. That’s kind of an important quailifer. The paper also says that people will be significantly healthier. Put another way, their own numbers say that we can significantly improve people’s health for an annual net cost of less than 0.2% of GDP.
The CBO does more of a static analysis, so it’s not a surprise that the CBO’s numbers are somewhat lower. And I don’t have a problem with other folks doing a more dynamic analysis; but if you do that, then you have to start including a lot of other factors, which Foster’s report did not include. For example, Foster claims that one of the higher costs to the Treasury is due to businesses shedding health insurance coverage. Okay, but if that’s true than it also means wage incomes will go up and so will employment, which means higher income tax revenues. Foster did not account for that. And Foster did not account for higher labor productivity as employer based healthcare begins to unwind.
Run,
You’re not getting what you want in the health care bill, you’re angy, you want to lash out at people, you want to kick some ass. I get it. But let me remind you that in life you can’t always get what you want or think you’re entitled to.
The bill is a horrible mess!
It didn’t start out that way. It started out on the House side as a pretty decent bill. It get steadily worse as the Democratic leadership tried to bring in Republicans and conservative Democrats. In other words, as the bill became more conservative, it got worse. What does that tell you about conservative ideas? It tells me that they are crap and belong in the toilet.
It helps no one but the Insurance providers
That’s not true. It does offer help to some people who have no access to health insurance. Not as many people as I would like and the bill is going to have to be worked and reworked over the next 20 years, but it is still better than the current situation even if only marginally better. It is true that the bill is too good for insurance companies. But is that because Senate liberals were pushing for more insurance industry goodies??? I don’t think so. I haven’t heard anyone in the GOP leadership complain about there being too many insurance industry goodies. Just the opposite. All we hear are crocodile tears from Mitch McConnell about how the bill is going to hurt insurance providers, so they special breaks and anti-trust protections.
Jack, what part of saying this is an abortion of a bill is confusing. The Repubs are fighting it because the voters want that. Is there politics involved? Of course, but that is on both sides. This bill is now designed to help NO ONE but the insurance companies. I’m sure that is not what was intended, but the politics of saving Obama’s administration is being trumped by what is going on by the Senate and House leadership.
This bill raises taxes on Insurance companies; therefore, raising the price for us. It raises the tax on us; therefore, raising the price for us. The new law will allow the sick to take insurance at any time, while increasing the risk to insurance companies(not too much); therefore, raising the price for us. It is paid by taking ~1/2 $B from Medicare; wtherefore, raising the price for us. It moves even more into Medicaid, which is largely State funded; therefore, raising the price for us. Lowering the healthcare costs is nonexistant in this current bill.
So what is the purpose of this bill? Why are we being forced to accept this aborted effort? Why do you still support it? Why does anyone still support it? It has gone beyond meaningless into bizarro world, so why do Congressional Dems still support it?
Cantab:
Another distortion of what has been said which is what you consistently present and attempt to pass as valid arguments. If you can’t win the point with factual information you resort to inflammatory remarks meant onlt to skew the discussion. Keep trying though; but, I will no engage your vile behavoir at the same level to which you brought this too.
You are completely off topic with these references and are no longer posting to the topic of the Top post on Angry Bear.
2slugbaits – “As to Foster’s report, note that the paper explains that the reason they believe costs will be higher is because people will start getting more medical care.”
Why do you resort to partial truths and deception? Do you think readers are incapable of reading Foster’s CMMS memorandum for themselves?
You conveniently mentioned only one of three reasons why Foster’s analysis indicates that healthcare costs will rise.
Here is what Foster’s report stated on this matter:
“As described in more detail in a later section of the memorandum, we estimate that the total national health expenditures under this bill would increase by an estimated total of $234 billion (0.7 percent) during the calendar years 2010-2019, principally reflecting the net impact of (i) greater utlization of health care services by individuals becoming newly covered (or having moer complete coverage), (ii) lower prices paid to health providers for the subset of those individuals who become covered by Medicaid, and (iii) lower payments and payment updates for Medicare services, together with net Medicaid savings from provisions other than coverage expansion. Although several provisions would help to reduce health care cost growth, their impact would be more than offset through 2019 by the higher health expenditures resulting from the coverage expansion.”
The Federal Government net cost spread between the CBO and CMMC analyses is $374 billion over the 2010-2019 period. CBO arrives at a net cost savings of $130 billion and CMMC puts the net cost to the Federal Government at $234 billion.
The first major difference between the CBO and CMMC reports is the matter of net costs to the Federal Government. CBO states $599 billion and CMMC states $930 billion in net costs.
MG,
I think you might be misreading what the Foster report says. The main cost increase is coming from expanded coverage and utilization. That’s item #1 and that is the part that I focused on. The three factors that Foster lists are things that go into the NET impact. Not all of them would increase the federal government’s cost. The one factor that would unambiguously increase the federal government’s cost would be item #1.
MG,
I said:
As to Foster’s report, note that the paper explains that the reason they believe costs will be higher is because people will start getting more medical care.”
To which you replied:
Why do you resort to partial truths and deception?
Okay, let’s roll the tape. Here’s what the report says:
The increase in total NHE is estimated to occur primarily as a net result of the substantial expansions in coverage under the PPACA, together with the expenditure reductions for Medicare. Numbers studies have demonstrated that individuals and families with health insurance use more health services than otherwise-similar persons without insurance. Under the health reform legislation, as noted above, an estimated 33 million currently uninsured people would gain comprehensive coverage through the health insurance Exchanges, their employers, or Medicaid. The availability of coverage would typically result in a fairly substantial increase in the utilization of health care services, with a corresponding impoact on total health expenditures.
Got that part about increasing utilization of health care? Sounds a lot like “getting more medical care” doesn’t it. So what part is deceptive or a partial truth?
MM, for heaven’s sake get a clue. It is a Dem run Congress! Repubs had little if anything to do with the current form of the bill. It was changed to placate the Dems special interests.
What I think is happening is that certain Dem Senators up for reelection have seen the Tea Party demonstration in front of the Capital building (two in the past month), and are realizing the anger in their constituencies over this monstrosity.
This thing started as the left’s wet dram of a bill, as passed by the House, and got whittled down to the current inadequate piece of effluvium. It has now activated the conservative beast to rewrite the make up of the Congress in 2010 to rescind or at the very least modify so that it satisfies the majority instead of the left’s minority.
Y’unno, if the Dem leadership had wanted to actually make it a bi-partisan bill it would have been easy after the House bill was passed. Nope! One way! Their way! Was the only way! Now, they will pay for the inevitable over reach. Too bad really, cause I can foresee another two decade loss of Dem control of the Congress with intermittent WH occupation.
Your emotions running away from you is a legitimate topic.
2slugbaits,
Yes, you’re right that the other two considerations do not appear to increase federal government costs. I cited the wrong passage.
There are two primary issues being discussed by Foster. Overall healthcare expenditures and costs to the federal government. What I should have pointed out in that comment is what I posted later, the comparison of net costs to the federal government. Foster and CMMS have determined the net cost to be higher than did CBO.
2slugbaits,
Ok. As I explained in a previous post, I cited the wrong passage. What I should have stated was the following: (posted separately earlier on Thursday)
The Federal Government net cost spread between the CBO and CMMC analyses is $374 billion over the 2010-2019 period. CBO arrives at a net cost savings of $130 billion and CMMC puts the net cost to the Federal Government at $234 billion.
The first major difference between the CBO and CMMC reports is the matter of net costs to the Federal Government. CBO states $599 billion and CMMC states $930 billion in net costs.
If you want to say that the difference is due to increased usage of medical services by consumers as a result of the passage of the bill, perhaps that explanation accounts for some or much of the increase. I don’t know if that is the case.
Bottom line: I cited the wrong reference and made an improper accusation. Apologies to you are in order. Sorry. If you want me to delete all of my comments since the time that posted remarks in response to my follow up, I will do so. But I will leave the 3:19:49 PM Thursday comment up. I would have to study the report again in detail to try to explain the $374 billion net cost difference to the federal government.
Cantab:
I am not the on who has displayed emotional attacks on other posters here. Look to yourself for the stereotyping. Again, you are completely off the subject matter for the post Bruce made.
A Few Words of Well Deserved Praise for Bruce Webb
I understand that emotions are running hot on this Congressional issue. That is to be expected. Thankfully, Bruce Webb has devoted a considerable amount of time to researching the various proposed bills. Bruce is one of brightest individuals I have encountered on any blogs. His efforts at Angry Bear on a number of subjects have been appreciated deeply by me. His analysis is spot on. Bruce’s command of subject matter is something to behold.
It’s true that I bugged him about a minor problem with this main post. I suppose that I want Bruce to always provide his usual perfect main posts. When he doesn’t, it’s no big deal as the thrust of his messages are important and, as evidenced by the number of comments, appreciated by the readers of Angry Bear. He is very smart and he can write. It’s a powerful combination.
Nothing that I pointed out challenges Bruce’s contention that the healthcare corporations are probably in shock over a proposed MLR 90%. Yes, I can imagine that they freaked out. I know that I would have. Bruce was wise to point that out.
I was hoping that Bruce would come back to the comment thread. If he doesn’t read this, I will post the basic message again on another thread. Bruce deserves considerable credit for his fine efforts. I wiish that he would post more often, and on other subjects as well.
Merry Christmas, Bruce. All the best.
PS: Rdan, I recommend that you, Bruce, or someone set up an open thread for the proposed healthcare bill. I would hope that Bruce would weigh in on the open thread and share his knowledge, opinions, and, yes, emotions. We might as well have it out on the whole issue.
MG
i skipped a lot of the comments because they didn’t look to be edifying. Your compliment to Bruce at the end surprised me. And pleased me. My reaction to Bruce’s post was “brilliant!” That doesn’t mean I know it’s true, or that it’s not. But Bruce’s insights are always worth reading.
I was not happy to see the food fight developing. Because I share some of CoRevs feelings about the health care reform in progress. Not all of them, but enough to wish to find basis for discussion, argument even, without the excess anger that I see here.
That said, if I had participated in the comments, I would have been calling someone insane by now.
Coberly,
I’m pretty sure that D.C. has the corner on insanity right now. Must be in the water. Reminds me of a Star Trek episode from the original series.
MG
that’s funny. I keep thinking we are on our way to a Star Trek future. Most of the crew on the starship Enterprise won’t even realize they live in a society completely controlled by its government. They will just be glad they made it to “crew,” and didn’t get left behind to live with the ground dwellers.
Yeah, that’s the truth.
CoRev what in the original is written in anger?
My anger started when a commenter introduced a crap talking point about prisons in turn based on a preposterous distortion of a JCT letter. The letter was solicited by Rep Dave Camp’s which subsequently did the distorting.
Your initial comment was clearly off topic and seemingly designed to hijack the thread. At which point you put on your clinical psychologist hat which fit as badly as your political analysis hat
Thanks MG
I for one am willing to draw a line under this thread and call a Christmas pause. At least until we actually get some bill language.
Happy Holidays