Voting on the Australian ETS bill (similar to our Cap & Trade) has been stalled; moreover, the controversy may very well bring down the government. The Ozzie Govt was trying to get ahead of the Copenhagen conference, but with recent events they were forcing Australia to go it alone. Monday, today in Australia, should tell whether it even goes to vote.
Here’s an interesting link for those who believe, as I do, that most stuff you see advertised on TV is probably something you’ll be better off without and is — in any case — probably inferior to competing products and/or more expensive.
(There are exceptions — mostly stuff that is perishable in one way or another — but for the most part if your product is superior or most cost effective, you shouldn’t need to spend all that much on advertising.)
Anyway, this guy says “Video Professor” is a scam and details why he thinks that
New report on Tora Bora confirms what we already knew….Team Bush blew it and allowed A-Q to escape into Pakistan. Sorry, Cantab, but your version of events just isn’t holding up well.
So Kerry the hack democrat re-hashes this line of BS on the weekend before Obama is to give a policy on his “Afghanistan policy”. Big surprise. This is just a re-release of a stupid story with no new information in it.
Here is the key point again that crushes this ridiculous story. If our troops massed for an attack they would have been observed and OBL just would have left earlier. He was not ready to die that day.
By the way, does Tommy Franks endorse the Kerry report?
No one was talking about massing for an attack. The commaders on the ground at Tora Bora asked for and were promised a couple of battalions to seal off the borders. That is not a mass attack. This would have been a simple operation. Give it up. Team Bush blew it.
2slugs said: “…a couple of battalions to seal off the borders. That is not a mass attack. ” You know in Afghanistan that it is still today, and especially in Tora Bora time it most certainly was.
Can anyone list a two Battalion size action in Afghanistan? Just curious.
Anyone have the manning available within Afghanistan at that time? Anyone have the transportation, mainly Helos, available in Afghanistan at that time? Anyone know what other missions would have been stripped to follow 2slugs’ tactical solution? Does anyone know that the 600-2,000 troops would have been enough to close off the escape paths? Is it even possible today to rapidly move this number of troops in Afghanistan?
If the answer to ANY of your questions is negative, then exactly what the hell were we doing in Afghanistan in the first place? I had and have no problem with an expeditionary force to capture bin Laden. And if he chose to die rather than surrender, that wouldn’t trouble me at all. But if we were not prepared to commit the necessary resources, we should not have been there.
And we should not be there now. Our current war in Afghanistan is illegal, stupid, pointless, unwinnable and morally unjustifed. Naturally, the American right wing loves loves it
Codger said: “..then exactly what the hell were we doing in Afghanistan in the first place?” How about winning with the least amount of force and collateral damage. Because of that “least” part, the policy preferred by folks like you, when it came to go outside the envelope, “least” couldn’t hack it.
***How about winning with the least amount of force and collateral damage. Because of that “least” part, the policy preferred by folks like you, when it came to go outside the envelope, “least” couldn’t hack it.***
Hogwash Minimizing the collateral damage is how you fight a guerilla war if you are stupid enough to get into one. BTW, most of the time the guerillas win.
The objective of an expeditionary force is to do its damn mission. If you can’t do that it then you do not undertake the mission. That is not complicated. A nation that can not understand simple realities should certainly give up militarism because all their expensive military is going to buy them is grief.
“Here is the key point again that crushes this ridiculous story. If our troops massed for an attack they would have been observed and OBL just would have left earlier. He was not ready to die that day.”
Yeah. Just like Saddam and his sons. As soon as our troops massed for an attack, the Iraqi leaders noticed and fled the country. They weren’t ready to die that day.
CoRev,
“Can anyone list a two Battalion size action in Afghanistan? “
Its hard to pull off when our battalions have been in Iraq for the past few years.
Yeah. Just like Saddam and his sons. As soon as our troops massed for an attack, the Iraqi leaders noticed and fled the country. They weren’t ready to die that day.
If you remember we kicked off the war by trying to bomb Saddam at his headquarters, but he had already left so the attack was a failure. But the incident that I have is when we tried to catch Mohamed Farrah Aidid in Somalia.
The strategy in Afghanistan was to avoid the mistakes of the Soviet Union by letting the Afghanis with the help of our special forces and 52’a drive out the Taliban and Al Quida. We never had 2 ballalions to spare — and think OBL knew this and would not have dithered at Tora Bora elsewise. Slugs has a problem with this simple logical point.
No one was talking about “massing” for an “attack” against A-Q. Sealing off escape routes is very different tactically from massing an attack. Ask the Spartans.
As to lift capability. Yes, the lift capability was there. In fact, by coincidence Boeing had proven that shortly before the war with the CH-47F improvments and the new T55-714 engines. Those choppers regularly fly at higher altitudes today fully loaded.
There were no other pressing missions in Afghanistan at the time. The problem wasn’t the availability of troops and equipment. Those were standing by and had been promised. The scandal is that the troops that were ready to deploy were ordered to stand down. So basically your comments are just crap and don’t reflect any knowledge about the logistics of getting troops to Tora Bora. As missions go sealing off the escape routes was a no brainer.
BS. In December 2001 we had almost every FORSCOM battalion in the US Army available. This was a mission that should have been handled by a few battalions from one brigade out of the 10th MTN division. The troops were available, ready and had been told to deploy. They were ordered to stand down. Understand??? They were already to go and told to stand down.
OBL knew this and would not have dithered at Tora Bora elsewise
So that must be why OBL wrote his last will while holed up at Tora Bora? This is one of the stupidest comments you’ve ever made. I don’t think that even OBL counted on being lucky enough to have Team Bush running the war. It was only their sheer incompetence that allowed OBL to escape. Go read Jawbreaker. It has a pretty good account of Tora Bora by the top CIA guy on the ground.
We’re talking about the initial mission back in Dec 2001. Collateral damage and the killing of innocent civilians was not an issue at Tora Bora. They were all A-Q fighters, so I don’t think we need to shed a lot of tears over their deaths.
Now I agree that the situation today is quite different, thanks to Bush’s failed efforts in 2001. The war today is morally a lot more problematic.
CoRev that objection works against Cantab and not Cactus. It is Cantab that says “we never had two battalions to spare” and you that are saying “we had many times that”. Which is it?
VT – And President Obama ran on it has the good war and the Democrats in Congress have backed the Afghanistan War from the start. Basically you are out in the cold politically with that statement. Neither party supports you. Neither Bush or Obama supports this. None of the leading politicians, heck hardly any, in either party support that position.
Check the votes over the past years.
You voted for Obama who explicitly said over and over that Afghanistan was the good was and he planned to send troops there. Or did you miss that part of teh Dem platform?
An update: Monday has come and ogne without a vote on the ETS. The Liberal Party (equivalent to out conservatives) has voted out ist leader, Turnbull. Trunbull negotiated an accomodation with the Labor Party, now on power. It is possible the Green Party,m who think the ETS Bill does not go far enough and tha Liberals may join to kill the Bill.
Rudd has threatened a Double dissolution, of the Government and of the Senate, resulting in new elections. Thusly, the ETS Vote would be fatally delayed as the polling is starting to turn downward the same as our Cap&Trade Bill polling has.
An update: Monday has come and gone without a vote on the ETS. The Liberal Party (equivalent to out conservatives) has voted out its leader, Turnbull. Trunbull negotiated an accomodation with the Labor Party, now in power. It is possible the Green Party, who think the ETS Bill does not go far enough and the Liberals may join to kill the Bill.
Rudd has threatened, if the Bill is killed, a Double dissolution, of the Government and of the Senate, resulting in new elections. Thusly, the ETS Vote would be fatally delayed as the polling is starting to turn downward the same as our Cap&Trade Bill polling has.
Update 2, ETS appears dead for the next few months. The new leader of the Liberal Party (our Republicans) called for a secret ballot to delay voting on the ETS. His party members agreed with that proposal with a follow-on that if delay was not accepted, then they would vote against the ETS.
Wonder if that was noted in the WH last night as the Prez and Aussie PM were meeting?
How is any war a “good war?” What war during the past half century has the US participated in that was acctually for the purpose of enhancing the lilves of the people for whom we were said to be fighting? What attack on htis country was being repelled? What attack on this country was being avenged? The fighting in Afghanistan is now more than eight years on going. It took the Russians about nine years to recognize the futility of their aggression. What is the US accomplishing in Afghanistan? Money for good is being squandered as it has been squandered in Iraq. What purpose was the Iraqi debacle? Democracy? Where, when and by whom?
This is the same bullshit argument that’s been going on for far too long a time. Wars in the name of democracy that result in dictatorial regimes. Wars on terrorism that result in generating the most terrible circumstances which produce the most die hard terrorists. There is no good war. War is certainly the failure of those who claim to lead this country, whether they be from one or another political point of view. That so many members of the Congress follow the lead of our hapless administration is not a justification for their opinions or their actions.
Money wasted is money earned by those who perpetuate the waste of such money. This country is on its economic ass and still money is being squandered on a hopeless and worthless endeavor. Write to your congressional representatives and their buddies in the Senate. Tell them that their support of the war is reprehensible. Not because of the misery we’re causing. Not because of the hatred we’re fomenting in the middle-east. It is a pathetic waste of US resources in the form of both lives and money. There is no excuse for supporting such useless bloodshed and waste of assets.
Maybe rather than thinking about good and bad wars we should thinking about ousting bad people and regimes and if the benefit was worth the cost.
The taliban were taking women to soccer stadiums and executing them. Now they’re throwing acid in the face of school children. I think that qualifies them as bad.OBL and Al Quida attacked the U.S. causing civilians to jump to their deaths rather then get burned alive. That make him bad too. Saddam gassed his own people started two major wars and was a major sponsor or terrorism. So he’s got a place on list. Communism is a virus that needed to re eradicated so I don’t see as valid a moral argument against Korea, Vietnam, or the cold war.
We dithered in the balkans and thousands died for it. We dithered in Africa and hundreds of thousands died. Remember Pol Pot — millions died. We may not want to pay the price of war but regardless of what we do the evil created by evil people and evil regimes impose a cost to humanity.
Glenn Beck in a nutshell:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/nov/29/glenn-beck-obama-fox-opposition
Voting on the Australian ETS bill (similar to our Cap & Trade) has been stalled; moreover, the controversy may very well bring down the government. The Ozzie Govt was trying to get ahead of the Copenhagen conference, but with recent events they were forcing Australia to go it alone. Monday, today in Australia, should tell whether it even goes to vote.
Here’s an interesting link for those who believe, as I do, that most stuff you see advertised on TV is probably something you’ll be better off without and is — in any case — probably inferior to competing products and/or more expensive.
(There are exceptions — mostly stuff that is perishable in one way or another — but for the most part if your product is superior or most cost effective, you shouldn’t need to spend all that much on advertising.)
Anyway, this guy says “Video Professor” is a scam and details why he thinks that
http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/11/28/video-professor-washington-post-scamville/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+Techcrunch+(TechCrunch)
New report on Tora Bora confirms what we already knew….Team Bush blew it and allowed A-Q to escape into Pakistan. Sorry, Cantab, but your version of events just isn’t holding up well.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/11/29/bin.laden.2001/index.html
Slugs,
So Kerry the hack democrat re-hashes this line of BS on the weekend before Obama is to give a policy on his “Afghanistan policy”. Big surprise. This is just a re-release of a stupid story with no new information in it.
Here is the key point again that crushes this ridiculous story. If our troops massed for an attack they would have been observed and OBL just would have left earlier. He was not ready to die that day.
By the way, does Tommy Franks endorse the Kerry report?
Cantab,
No one was talking about massing for an attack. The commaders on the ground at Tora Bora asked for and were promised a couple of battalions to seal off the borders. That is not a mass attack. This would have been a simple operation. Give it up. Team Bush blew it.
Too bad Franks is on team Kerry to back up his fantastic “new” story.
2slugs said: “…a couple of battalions to seal off the borders. That is not a mass attack. ” You know in Afghanistan that it is still today, and especially in Tora Bora time it most certainly was.
Can anyone list a two Battalion size action in Afghanistan? Just curious.
Anyone have the manning available within Afghanistan at that time? Anyone have the transportation, mainly Helos, available in Afghanistan at that time? Anyone know what other missions would have been stripped to follow 2slugs’ tactical solution? Does anyone know that the 600-2,000 troops would have been enough to close off the escape paths? Is it even possible today to rapidly move this number of troops in Afghanistan?
If the answer to ANY of your questions is negative, then exactly what the hell were we doing in Afghanistan in the first place? I had and have no problem with an expeditionary force to capture bin Laden. And if he chose to die rather than surrender, that wouldn’t trouble me at all. But if we were not prepared to commit the necessary resources, we should not have been there.
And we should not be there now. Our current war in Afghanistan is illegal, stupid, pointless, unwinnable and morally unjustifed. Naturally, the American right wing loves loves it
Codger said: “..then exactly what the hell were we doing in Afghanistan in the first place?” How about winning with the least amount of force and collateral damage. Because of that “least” part, the policy preferred by folks like you, when it came to go outside the envelope, “least” couldn’t hack it.
***How about winning with the least amount of force and collateral damage. Because of that “least” part, the policy preferred by folks like you, when it came to go outside the envelope, “least” couldn’t hack it.***
Hogwash Minimizing the collateral damage is how you fight a guerilla war if you are stupid enough to get into one. BTW, most of the time the guerillas win.
The objective of an expeditionary force is to do its damn mission. If you can’t do that it then you do not undertake the mission. That is not complicated. A nation that can not understand simple realities should certainly give up militarism because all their expensive military is going to buy them is grief.
Cantab,
“Here is the key point again that crushes this ridiculous story. If our troops massed for an attack they would have been observed and OBL just would have left earlier. He was not ready to die that day.”
Yeah. Just like Saddam and his sons. As soon as our troops massed for an attack, the Iraqi leaders noticed and fled the country. They weren’t ready to die that day.
CoRev,
“Can anyone list a two Battalion size action in Afghanistan? “
Its hard to pull off when our battalions have been in Iraq for the past few years.
Yeah. Just like Saddam and his sons. As soon as our troops massed for an attack, the Iraqi leaders noticed and fled the country. They weren’t ready to die that day.
If you remember we kicked off the war by trying to bomb Saddam at his headquarters, but he had already left so the attack was a failure. But the incident that I have is when we tried to catch Mohamed Farrah Aidid in Somalia.
The strategy in Afghanistan was to avoid the mistakes of the Soviet Union by letting the Afghanis with the help of our special forces and 52’a drive out the Taliban and Al Quida. We never had 2 ballalions to spare — and think OBL knew this and would not have dithered at Tora Bora elsewise. Slugs has a problem with this simple logical point.
CoRev,
No one was talking about “massing” for an “attack” against A-Q. Sealing off escape routes is very different tactically from massing an attack. Ask the Spartans.
As to lift capability. Yes, the lift capability was there. In fact, by coincidence Boeing had proven that shortly before the war with the CH-47F improvments and the new T55-714 engines. Those choppers regularly fly at higher altitudes today fully loaded.
There were no other pressing missions in Afghanistan at the time. The problem wasn’t the availability of troops and equipment. Those were standing by and had been promised. The scandal is that the troops that were ready to deploy were ordered to stand down. So basically your comments are just crap and don’t reflect any knowledge about the logistics of getting troops to Tora Bora. As missions go sealing off the escape routes was a no brainer.
Cantab,
We never had 2 ballalions to spare
BS. In December 2001 we had almost every FORSCOM battalion in the US Army available. This was a mission that should have been handled by a few battalions from one brigade out of the 10th MTN division. The troops were available, ready and had been told to deploy. They were ordered to stand down. Understand??? They were already to go and told to stand down.
OBL knew this and would not have dithered at Tora Bora elsewise
So that must be why OBL wrote his last will while holed up at Tora Bora? This is one of the stupidest comments you’ve ever made. I don’t think that even OBL counted on being lucky enough to have Team Bush running the war. It was only their sheer incompetence that allowed OBL to escape. Go read Jawbreaker. It has a pretty good account of Tora Bora by the top CIA guy on the ground.
Guest,
We’re talking about the initial mission back in Dec 2001. Collateral damage and the killing of innocent civilians was not an issue at Tora Bora. They were all A-Q fighters, so I don’t think we need to shed a lot of tears over their deaths.
Now I agree that the situation today is quite different, thanks to Bush’s failed efforts in 2001. The war today is morally a lot more problematic.
Not really, Cactus. Battalion sizes range from 300-1,000 troops. We’ve had many times that in Afghanistan except for the very earliest days.
Now, now we’re there to make America safe. You know that, I know that, Europe knows that, NATO knows that. It is a given.
CoRev that objection works against Cantab and not Cactus. It is Cantab that says “we never had two battalions to spare” and you that are saying “we had many times that”. Which is it?
Bruce, my resposne was to this statement by Cactus: “CoRev,
“Can anyone list a two Battalion size action in Afghanistan? “
Its hard to pull off when our battalions have been in Iraq for the past few years. “
VT – And President Obama ran on it has the good war and the Democrats in Congress have backed the Afghanistan War from the start. Basically you are out in the cold politically with that statement. Neither party supports you. Neither Bush or Obama supports this. None of the leading politicians, heck hardly any, in either party support that position.
Check the votes over the past years.
You voted for Obama who explicitly said over and over that Afghanistan was the good was and he planned to send troops there. Or did you miss that part of teh Dem platform?
Islam will change
CoRev asked:
Can anyone list a two Battalion size action in Afghanistan? Just curious.
Yes. Another Team Bush fiasco…Operation Anaconda
http://web.mit.edu/ssp/seminars/wed_archives_06spring/naylor.htm
It included 3 regular battalions (from the 10th Mountain and 101st Airborne) along with lots of irregular special ops and joint force guys.
An update: Monday has come and ogne without a vote on the ETS. The Liberal Party (equivalent to out conservatives) has voted out ist leader, Turnbull. Trunbull negotiated an accomodation with the Labor Party, now on power. It is possible the Green Party,m who think the ETS Bill does not go far enough and tha Liberals may join to kill the Bill.
Rudd has threatened a Double dissolution, of the Government and of the Senate, resulting in new elections. Thusly, the ETS Vote would be fatally delayed as the polling is starting to turn downward the same as our Cap&Trade Bill polling has.
An update: Monday has come and gone without a vote on the ETS. The Liberal Party (equivalent to out conservatives) has voted out its leader, Turnbull. Trunbull negotiated an accomodation with the Labor Party, now in power. It is possible the Green Party, who think the ETS Bill does not go far enough and the Liberals may join to kill the Bill.
Rudd has threatened, if the Bill is killed, a Double dissolution, of the Government and of the Senate, resulting in new elections. Thusly, the ETS Vote would be fatally delayed as the polling is starting to turn downward the same as our Cap&Trade Bill polling has.
Update 2, ETS appears dead for the next few months. The new leader of the Liberal Party (our Republicans) called for a secret ballot to delay voting on the ETS. His party members agreed with that proposal with a follow-on that if delay was not accepted, then they would vote against the ETS.
Wonder if that was noted in the WH last night as the Prez and Aussie PM were meeting?
How is any war a “good war?” What war during the past half century has the US participated in that was acctually for the purpose of enhancing the lilves of the people for whom we were said to be fighting? What attack on htis country was being repelled? What attack on this country was being avenged? The fighting in Afghanistan is now more than eight years on going. It took the Russians about nine years to recognize the futility of their aggression. What is the US
accomplishing in Afghanistan? Money for good is being squandered as it has been squandered in Iraq. What purpose was the Iraqi debacle? Democracy? Where, when and by whom?
This is the same bullshit argument that’s been going on for far too long a time. Wars in the name of democracy that result in dictatorial regimes. Wars on terrorism that result in generating the most terrible circumstances which produce the most die hard terrorists. There is no good war. War is certainly the failure of those who claim to lead this country, whether they be from one or another political point of view. That so many members of the Congress follow the lead of our hapless administration is not a justification for their opinions or their actions.
Money wasted is money earned by those who perpetuate the waste of such money. This country is on its economic ass and still money is being squandered on a hopeless and worthless endeavor. Write to your congressional representatives and their buddies in the Senate. Tell them that their support of the war is reprehensible. Not because of the misery we’re causing. Not because of the hatred we’re fomenting in the middle-east. It is a pathetic waste of US resources in the form of both lives and money. There is no excuse for supporting such useless bloodshed and waste of assets.
Jack,
Maybe rather than thinking about good and bad wars we should thinking about ousting bad people and regimes and if the benefit was worth the cost.
The taliban were taking women to soccer stadiums and executing them. Now they’re throwing acid in the face of school children. I think that qualifies them as bad.OBL and Al Quida attacked the U.S. causing civilians to jump to their deaths rather then get burned alive. That make him bad too. Saddam gassed his own people started two major wars and was a major sponsor or terrorism. So he’s got a place on list. Communism is a virus that needed to re eradicated so I don’t see as valid a moral argument against Korea, Vietnam, or the cold war.
We dithered in the balkans and thousands died for it. We dithered in Africa and hundreds of thousands died. Remember Pol Pot — millions died. We may not want to pay the price of war but regardless of what we do the evil created by evil people and evil regimes impose a cost to humanity.
I left a comment here yesterday. Is there still a problem with comments getting lost into some other dimension?