What is “insane” about trump asking: “would you go to WW III over Montenegro”.
I think it is among the most pertinent questions a US president asked since Ike brought up the military industry complex in 1961.
But I am a repentant nuclear warrior……
The “troll” thing is your answer to not thinking.
When I see through the neoliberal media propaganda aka BS I change my mind!
When I discover/concluded that most democrats including Obama, Clintons, Warren work for Wall St, are war mongering neoliberals, engage in primary tampering, while running national security off the rails, who were funding al Qaeda and otherwise seeking to ruin the world, I change my support, what do you do, Emike?
BTW Samuelson attributed similar alliteration to J M Keynes but it is not proven.
He rejects anything that is not pro-putin. I love the empire thing. Russia had one through military force. Meanwhile, I have no knowledge of the US holding any parts of the countries that were liberated in WW II, nor the newly accepted countries into NATO.
The only invasions and occupation I remember was Russia’s in the past 15 years.
But this russian troll ignores that and spouts garbage. He should be ignored.
I believe and know we did continue to occupy islands in the Pacific such as Okinawa. If you go back to the Spanish-American War, we acquired Puerto Rico and Guam from Spain and occupied the Philippines and Cuba for a few decades. Then there is the Panama Canal Zone, California, etc., Dominican Republic, etc. Little USMC history intermingled there for you. Common thread through all of this is the color of their skin. Going a bit rogue on you here. US does not subjugate white people except for Germans.
This is really a battle in economics with military posturing. Sweden and the others around them are going to test the Russians even more. China forced Russia to build a gas pipeline into Eastern China. Chinese can give a crap about the Russians. It is not the fifties and the sixties anymore. China is telling Trump to go elsewhere. Two biggest consumer markets duking it out. China imports and exports will not be as impacted as the US. Trump is going to blink first. US could flood the market with natural gas too.
NATO is 5o years beyond when it should have been shuttered.
Occupying everywhere only pushed the clash with the threatened East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere.
I was in the nuclear side during a lot of the cold war. NATO was a tripwire from the late 1950’s. If you deny MAD as illogical and immoral, NATO was illogical, immoral and cost a lot of money. Should have been closed down when France pulled out.
I would put US military posture back to pre Spanish War.
US won’t allow Crimea, but the Senate is about to interfere with the constitutional assignment of foreign policy in the executive and vote a “sense” that US recognize Golan Heights as Israel.
Ukraine in NATO makes as much sense as Soviets adding Cuba ti Warsaw Pact.
The DoD Authorization bill for 2019 includes allowances for a new 100kt warhead Small multiple reentry vehicle (mirv) for Trident II D5 sub launched missiles. This implies a tactical usage, less than strategic and begs the question how naval missiles and cruise missile would affect INF.
W76-2 mirv cone and US leaving ABM are tit for tat with Russia’s on hold IRBM ‘departure’.
Seems they are also directing a study of a permanent brigade combat team in Poland…… now a formation is TDY for a year at a time, the congress thinks permanent occupation of Poland will deter…..
I sold my war bonds 40 years ago, still not a good investment with the meddling from the congress side of the Potomac.
Ilsm: What do you believe the pre Spanish (civil? Spanish American?) War situation was in terms of U.S. potential actions in the face of Russian aggression against European countries? Indifference? Make a difference as to which countries were threatened? Which ones? I understand that you want NATO gone. I’m trying to understand what you think would exist, if anything, without NATO.
A weak collection of little countries who would gradually find some manner in which to appease the eastern bear. It is going back to 19th century Europe. A few big bullies in the neighborhood picking on the little ones. Together, Putin can not bully them economically on the west. On the East, Putin is stuck economically with China a much bigger and growing nation. The only player is the US for all three. Trump is playing them all rattling his saber and threatening them with tariffs. Trump thinks it will work and Russia/China now have an uneasy alliance.
If US brigade got bogged down putting down a Russian separatist (1/3 of population) rebellion in Estonia would any American president be wiling to send out the w72-2 nuclear warheads like Truman for MacArthur?
Yes or no anachronist NATO is in the way.
Run,
AF folks call TAD TDY!
Of course in Poland they are under modified field conditions, which for Marines and army is tents and MOB MRE’s, while USAF folks get hotels and rental cars.
“The folks who live above you don’t know right from wrong,
To please their kings (Clintons?) they’ve all gone out to war, ”
later
“Kings up there are bigger Devils than your dad,
They’re breaking the hearts of mothers,
Making butchers out of brothers,
You’ll find more hell up there, than there is down below.”
Irving Berlin+ wrote this in 1914, when America still had a chance to stay out of the craziness in Europe:
[Verse 1]
Down below,
Down below,
Sat the Devil talking to his son,
Who wanted to go
Up above,
Up above,
He credIt’s getting too warm from me down here and so,
I’m going up on Earth where I can have a little fun,ﾝ
The Devil simply shook his head and answered his son.
[Chorus]
Stay down here where you belong,
The folks who live above you don’t know right from wrong,
To please their kings they’ve all gone out to war,
And not a one of them knows what he’s fighting for;
ﾔWay up above they say that I’m the Devil, and I’m bad,
Kings up there are bigger Devils than your dad,
They’re breaking the hearts of mothers,
Making butchers out of brothers,
You’ll find more hell up there, than there is down below.
[Verse 2]
Kings up there,
They don’t care,
For the mothers who must stay at home,
Their sorrows to bear,
Stay at home,
Don’t you roam,
Although it’s warm down below, you’ll find it’s warmer up there
If e’er you went up there, my son, I know you’d be surprised,
You’d find a lot of people who are not civilized
[Chorus]
War is wrong unless you meet St Augustine’s 6 principles of “Just War”. Wars sold by you meet none!
If I understand you, you are saying do nothing militarily no matter what Russia does unless it is a direct attack on the United States. I presume you feel the same as to possible aggressive military actors in the Middle East and Asia. I’m not arguing with you; I am trying to get you to say what you mean.
Why has no one observed the 100th anniversary of the US entering combat in the first militarist morass of modern Europe?
That was not just war.
We are going to hit 75 years since D-Day (1944 to 2019) do you suppose anyone will honor the Ukraine infantry battalions firing German MK 42’s and various mortar calibers on 29 US Inf Divison soldiers Omaha Beach?
WW II is the nearest thing to a Just War, if you ignore the empire v empire dynamics……… If the IJN had bomber Detroit it may be more acceptable.
Everything since 1945 is rationalized murder.
I will not do more Euro-morass, no matter how much anyone equates Putin to Stalin.
Keeping Ukraine (or the former Hanseatic cities) whole is not a moral value!
1. The first thing is the authority of the prince by whose command the war is to be waged.
2. The second is a just cause, so that they who are assailed should deserve to be assailed for some fault that they have committed.
3. The third, a right intention of promoting good or avoiding evil.
St. Thomas: “Eagerness to hurt, bloodthirsty desire of revenge, an untamed and unforgiving temper, ferocity in renewing the struggle, dust of empire,—these and the like excesses are justly blamed in war.”
Well, Hawaii is as American as Michigan but I take your point. One of the problems with your position is the difficulty in staying clear of European and maybe other conflicts. The Lusitania was sunk because the US was shipping “war materiel” to the English and French according to the Germans. It was true. Then there was lend lease leading to war with the Nazis. Tricky stuff despite President Washington’s counsel on leaving office.
Like you, I participated in the Cold War; in my case as part of the 4th Armored Division equipped with, among other things, nuclear artillery shells for our 155’s. Quite independent of that I encountered some people who’d fled Hungary and Czechoslovakia who’d experienced the Russian behavior of the time. It was scary then and scary now because, as you note, of the reality of MAD. I’m not so sure that it’s possible to let it all go on and simply look away.
‘F**k business’ Brexit could be a gift for Ireland
David McWilliams
http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/fk-business-brexit-could-be-a-gift-for-ireland/?utm_source=Website+Subscribers&utm_campaign=64b2998511-22112012_COPY_02&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_861a00f27d-64b2998511-266201441
“Economically, the real story is how the UK went from the herald of free enterprise to “F**k business” in one generation.”
Emike,
I will not cluttering the Helsinki thread!
What is “insane” about trump asking: “would you go to WW III over Montenegro”.
I think it is among the most pertinent questions a US president asked since Ike brought up the military industry complex in 1961.
But I am a repentant nuclear warrior……
The “troll” thing is your answer to not thinking.
When I see through the neoliberal media propaganda aka BS I change my mind!
When I discover/concluded that most democrats including Obama, Clintons, Warren work for Wall St, are war mongering neoliberals, engage in primary tampering, while running national security off the rails, who were funding al Qaeda and otherwise seeking to ruin the world, I change my support, what do you do, Emike?
BTW Samuelson attributed similar alliteration to J M Keynes but it is not proven.
This reminded me of Emike:
https://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=213702&ecd=mnl_day_072418
Ilsm, do you think we shouldn’t go to war over any country but our own being directly attacked?
No. US’ neocon adoration of the NATO “collective security” clause is not the “common defense”.
Forward defense is militarism and empire.
“Peace in our time, heh?”
Expansionism does not have to be militarily. It can be economical. We can cause more harm to Russia by blocking their efforts to westernize.
No? Looks like your answer is yes.
Rather than get into splitting hairs, what do you believe the U.S. military posture should be? Clearly, you reject NATO.
He rejects anything that is not pro-putin. I love the empire thing. Russia had one through military force. Meanwhile, I have no knowledge of the US holding any parts of the countries that were liberated in WW II, nor the newly accepted countries into NATO.
The only invasions and occupation I remember was Russia’s in the past 15 years.
But this russian troll ignores that and spouts garbage. He should be ignored.
EM:
I believe and know we did continue to occupy islands in the Pacific such as Okinawa. If you go back to the Spanish-American War, we acquired Puerto Rico and Guam from Spain and occupied the Philippines and Cuba for a few decades. Then there is the Panama Canal Zone, California, etc., Dominican Republic, etc. Little USMC history intermingled there for you. Common thread through all of this is the color of their skin. Going a bit rogue on you here. US does not subjugate white people except for Germans.
This is really a battle in economics with military posturing. Sweden and the others around them are going to test the Russians even more. China forced Russia to build a gas pipeline into Eastern China. Chinese can give a crap about the Russians. It is not the fifties and the sixties anymore. China is telling Trump to go elsewhere. Two biggest consumer markets duking it out. China imports and exports will not be as impacted as the US. Trump is going to blink first. US could flood the market with natural gas too.
What about those intermediate Russian missiles?
JackD,
NATO is 5o years beyond when it should have been shuttered.
Occupying everywhere only pushed the clash with the threatened East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere.
I was in the nuclear side during a lot of the cold war. NATO was a tripwire from the late 1950’s. If you deny MAD as illogical and immoral, NATO was illogical, immoral and cost a lot of money. Should have been closed down when France pulled out.
I would put US military posture back to pre Spanish War.
Emike,
Wow!
US won’t allow Crimea, but the Senate is about to interfere with the constitutional assignment of foreign policy in the executive and vote a “sense” that US recognize Golan Heights as Israel.
Ukraine in NATO makes as much sense as Soviets adding Cuba ti Warsaw Pact.
I will be nice and stop here.
Run,
The DoD Authorization bill for 2019 includes allowances for a new 100kt warhead Small multiple reentry vehicle (mirv) for Trident II D5 sub launched missiles. This implies a tactical usage, less than strategic and begs the question how naval missiles and cruise missile would affect INF.
W76-2 mirv cone and US leaving ABM are tit for tat with Russia’s on hold IRBM ‘departure’.
https://www.defensenews.com/congress/2018/07/24/tactical-nuclear-weapon-launches-into-development-with-pentagon-policy-bill/?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=EBB%207.25.18&utm_term=Editorial%20-%20Early%20Bird%20Brief
Seems they are also directing a study of a permanent brigade combat team in Poland…… now a formation is TDY for a year at a time, the congress thinks permanent occupation of Poland will deter…..
I sold my war bonds 40 years ago, still not a good investment with the meddling from the congress side of the Potomac.
TAD. It used to come with extra pay per day.
Ilsm: What do you believe the pre Spanish (civil? Spanish American?) War situation was in terms of U.S. potential actions in the face of Russian aggression against European countries? Indifference? Make a difference as to which countries were threatened? Which ones? I understand that you want NATO gone. I’m trying to understand what you think would exist, if anything, without NATO.
Jack:
A weak collection of little countries who would gradually find some manner in which to appease the eastern bear. It is going back to 19th century Europe. A few big bullies in the neighborhood picking on the little ones. Together, Putin can not bully them economically on the west. On the East, Putin is stuck economically with China a much bigger and growing nation. The only player is the US for all three. Trump is playing them all rattling his saber and threatening them with tariffs. Trump thinks it will work and Russia/China now have an uneasy alliance.
JackD,
If US brigade got bogged down putting down a Russian separatist (1/3 of population) rebellion in Estonia would any American president be wiling to send out the w72-2 nuclear warheads like Truman for MacArthur?
Yes or no anachronist NATO is in the way.
Run,
AF folks call TAD TDY!
Of course in Poland they are under modified field conditions, which for Marines and army is tents and MOB MRE’s, while USAF folks get hotels and rental cars.
I guess you don’t want to answer the question.
Run,
I was talking about Europe.
EM:
I said I went rogue.
JackD,
The Devil to his son:
“The folks who live above you don’t know right from wrong,
To please their kings (Clintons?) they’ve all gone out to war, ”
later
“Kings up there are bigger Devils than your dad,
They’re breaking the hearts of mothers,
Making butchers out of brothers,
You’ll find more hell up there, than there is down below.”
Irving Berlin+ wrote this in 1914, when America still had a chance to stay out of the craziness in Europe:
[Verse 1]
Down below,
Down below,
Sat the Devil talking to his son,
Who wanted to go
Up above,
Up above,
He credIt’s getting too warm from me down here and so,
I’m going up on Earth where I can have a little fun,ﾝ
The Devil simply shook his head and answered his son.
[Chorus]
Stay down here where you belong,
The folks who live above you don’t know right from wrong,
To please their kings they’ve all gone out to war,
And not a one of them knows what he’s fighting for;
ﾔWay up above they say that I’m the Devil, and I’m bad,
Kings up there are bigger Devils than your dad,
They’re breaking the hearts of mothers,
Making butchers out of brothers,
You’ll find more hell up there, than there is down below.
[Verse 2]
Kings up there,
They don’t care,
For the mothers who must stay at home,
Their sorrows to bear,
Stay at home,
Don’t you roam,
Although it’s warm down below, you’ll find it’s warmer up there
If e’er you went up there, my son, I know you’d be surprised,
You’d find a lot of people who are not civilized
[Chorus]
War is wrong unless you meet St Augustine’s 6 principles of “Just War”. Wars sold by you meet none!
He did this song on Dick Cavat:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WTkzBRbtZA
You can decide instigating state sanction murder meets ST Augustine on any country, because of Putin, and I tell you NATO is opposed to Just War.
This time listen to the devil and stay out of it.
Run Groucho off against Steppenwolf:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwMmBhKyc7E
I will not follow you down any rabbit holes……..
If I understand you, you are saying do nothing militarily no matter what Russia does unless it is a direct attack on the United States. I presume you feel the same as to possible aggressive military actors in the Middle East and Asia. I’m not arguing with you; I am trying to get you to say what you mean.
JackD,
Why has no one observed the 100th anniversary of the US entering combat in the first militarist morass of modern Europe?
That was not just war.
We are going to hit 75 years since D-Day (1944 to 2019) do you suppose anyone will honor the Ukraine infantry battalions firing German MK 42’s and various mortar calibers on 29 US Inf Divison soldiers Omaha Beach?
WW II is the nearest thing to a Just War, if you ignore the empire v empire dynamics……… If the IJN had bomber Detroit it may be more acceptable.
Everything since 1945 is rationalized murder.
I will not do more Euro-morass, no matter how much anyone equates Putin to Stalin.
Keeping Ukraine (or the former Hanseatic cities) whole is not a moral value!
No more war!
Ahh, “Just War: St Thomas Aquinas:
1. The first thing is the authority of the prince by whose command the war is to be waged.
2. The second is a just cause, so that they who are assailed should deserve to be assailed for some fault that they have committed.
3. The third, a right intention of promoting good or avoiding evil.
St. Thomas: “Eagerness to hurt, bloodthirsty desire of revenge, an untamed and unforgiving temper, ferocity in renewing the struggle, dust of empire,—these and the like excesses are justly blamed in war.”
Are all issues evident?
Well, Hawaii is as American as Michigan but I take your point. One of the problems with your position is the difficulty in staying clear of European and maybe other conflicts. The Lusitania was sunk because the US was shipping “war materiel” to the English and French according to the Germans. It was true. Then there was lend lease leading to war with the Nazis. Tricky stuff despite President Washington’s counsel on leaving office.
Like you, I participated in the Cold War; in my case as part of the 4th Armored Division equipped with, among other things, nuclear artillery shells for our 155’s. Quite independent of that I encountered some people who’d fled Hungary and Czechoslovakia who’d experienced the Russian behavior of the time. It was scary then and scary now because, as you note, of the reality of MAD. I’m not so sure that it’s possible to let it all go on and simply look away.
Nevertheless, I appreciate your candor.