Understanding the Responsibilities of Democracy
As usual and as expected (for me anyway), I pulled up Abdul – Jabbar to get his perspective on the first presidential debate between cough-cough x-president trump . . . a proven liar and President Joe Biden. I read the other blog sites and substacks that want me to pay to read them plus an ability to comment.
They are all clanging a 4-alarm fire. And why would I pay to comment there when I can do so at Angry Bear? Just some commentary between us all including the unsupported remarks.
Not all of the pundits, but many are suggesting Biden is done, done after producing the best economy over 4 years given two years of a pandemic. Kareem suggests we vote based upon their records and what they have done over 4 years and not decide based upon 60 or so minutes of an uncontrolled TV WWDebate lacking the necessary referring to smack down the lies and not answering questions. What we had was 60 plus minutes of truth versus the lies.
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I tend to lean towards the truth all the time . . .
Why I Hate Presidential Debates
A presidential debate can gather 80 million or more watchers. That is sad news. Nothing of substance ever happens during a debate. Candidates bluster, insult, throw around dubious statistics, virtue signal, and even outright lie. But nothing new is learned at a debate that should influence a voter one way or the other. The important information is already out there: what have they done, what plans have they made to solve our problems and what do the experts say about the viability of those plans? Both men have been president and their records are all the evidence required. Anyone who makes up their mind about a candidate based on debates is the worst kind of voter: delusional that they have some special power to see into a person’s heart just by watching them on a stage. It’s lazy, insulting to democracy, and detrimental to the country.
In general, those who support a candidate always believe their candidate “won” the debate. But it doesn’t matter either way. The person who wins the debate isn’t necessarily a better candidate for president, they’re just better at debates, which is not a skill necessary to be a good president. It reminds me of Black Panther when M’Baku challenges T’Challa to be the leader of their country. What people would choose their leader based on hand-to-hand combat, the most useless skill for a modern leader? Fun in a movie, but dumb in real life.
What does it say about us as a society that we insist on this form of ritualized verbal combat that is nothing more than strutting and fretting their hour on the stage filled with sound and fury—signifying nothing?
If you watched just for the entertainment value of two codgers arguing in Real Housewives style, then that’s legit. Grab the popcorn and enjoy. If you’re watching to help make up your mind about which candidate to support, you don’t understand the responsibilities of democracy.
Bill
just so you know, i agree with that entirely. Hard to tell where you leave off and Kareem begins or vice versa. Moreover, I don’t trust the pundits. They all lie about Social Security or just talk about something they know nothing about. It took me awhile to not overreact to the debate…and the pundits. But “no reaction” may not be right either. Biden needs to look good from here on. And his people need to learn how to talk to the voters. Buttigiege (sp?) did a good job today. Of course, what i think is a good job doesn’t look at all like what politicians have won on since I have been old enough to notice.
” And why would I pay to comment there when I can do so at Angry Bear? Just some commentary between us all including the unsupported remarks.”
Glad to hear that.
This is a good read the day after the trump lies and failure to answer question Biden answered. You may have to click continue to get through it all.
President Biden Delivered The Biden We Need At His NC Rally | Crooks and Liars
This article in the NYT talks about how rural voters, who tend to vote Republican, are seen as different from urban voters. It talks about the difference between rural rage and rural resentment. But it also indicates rural voters are only 20 percent, so there is more going on.
I think that in focusing on the politics of resentment, it misses that Republicans (more so than Democrats) are about the politics of pandering. They have found it easy to pander to those who do not like how things have changed. There is a difference between the politics of change in rural and urban areas, so there is definitely something for academics to study, but refusing to analyze whether the resentment is justified limits the value of that pursuit.
Trump tells people he can put things back to the way they were. That appeals to both rural and urban resentment. (The relative power of rural and urban resentment could be another discussion.)
I consider this on topic because I think one of the responsibilities of democracy is to understand the people you need to compromise with. Both parties are poor at that, but Republicans are the ones who refuse to compromise. Even if “own the libs” is about trolling for a reaction, there is no Democratic counterpart.
Arne:
Pandering with lies created by Republicans. Didn’t we get enough of pandering with lies to voters by trump? Forty-five minutes of lies and the only one who called trump out was Biden? Do you have to be an intellectual to understand you are being lied to by someone who can not compete on a normal, regular plane? Not one of the monitors of that debate called trump out. And they knew.
Back to the way it was? Black Americans in the back of the bus? Separate but equal? The rich in income and status have top priority. Reductions in healthcare for those who can not afford it. Draft the poor kids and grant 4F to the wealthy kids. No leniency in tuition for college. Certain neighborhoods for certain people.
I believe what trump thinks the way it was is far different than what rural and some city folk belive it was.
“Do you have to be an intellectual to understand you are being lied to by someone who can not compete on a normal, regular plane?”
No, but it is intellectually interesting to understand how trump (and many other Republicans) have figured out how to get supporters to accept the lies. From understanding may come a solution.
Arne:
Not everyone reads or writes at Angry Bear. You guys and women know because we talk to each other, argue, and test our beliefs. Thank you Arne, and thank you all for contributing.
Best . . .
Hopes and prayers that what trump promises they will receive. They will not. Trump is a liar and a fraud,
Arne,
I agree with you, but it’s hard. Politics is the art of telling people what they want to hear. But yes, definitely, it would be a huge improvement if “the Left” took the trouble to find out why “the Right” hates us. I think the politicians on the Right know why. They plan it that way.
So, in reverse, do the politicians on the Left. But their brand is not selling very well these days.
Personally the only thing I dread more than walking on hot coals is watching politicians’ jibber jabber. Needless to say, I didn’t watch the debate.
However, I do think the panic of pro-Biden talking heads during and after the debate to be highly significant. And to think that these hired promoters were touting Biden’s mental acuity right up to the debate. (Krugman included.)
If the reaction to the debate showed anything, it’s just how far media outlets will go in shovelling out BS and misinformation…and not just on Biden’s mental fitness.
John:
It was needless to say as I knew it and Joel probably recognized it. It says more about your leanings and bias. Give it up on the mental illness trolling. It is a red herring. I will not rise to take the bait. Maybe Dale will grant you a boon? I doubt Joel will either.
Dale here. I don’t feel like granting no boons. Too confusing.
My political bias? Flawed logic–if I seriously question Biden’s mental acuity and ability to lead, you come to the conclusion that I must necessarily be pro-Trump? Wow! Talk about a knee-jerk, tribalist reaction!
The current election cycle is an extraordinarily perfect example of “a choice between the lesser of two evils” on steroids…and I will vote for neither…as I have done all but once for thirty years–ever since the Ds abandoned New Deal principles.
JohnH:
Good, you do that. So many did similar in 2016 with Clinton v trump. That is how we were stuck with trump as a result of not voting, voting for dogs, cartoon characters, the Greens, Communists, etc. And then they started to whine afterwards.
Trump lied throughout the whole 90 minutes and you have no problem with that. Just Biden . . .
On target JH. The last NDD was ironically independent Ross Perot, who fought corporate America’s political push to move middle class industrial jobs out of America. It was easier for them to make profits by outsourcing industrial jobs with less annoying interaction with unions. Republican tax cuts from Reagan on, have delivered 10-20 trillion to corporations for corporate buybacks (and not R and D and industrial investment), the top ten percent, and primarily by the top one percent
Gary:
Where did John say anything you mentioned past “America.” He didn’t and you did.
Sure you can source to China and spend 5-6 weeks on the ocean and in customs. It may be more if your poorly maintained ship hits a bridge. It easily 21 days on the ocean. A week in customs or loading/unloading on either end. A week to get to the final destination. The costs balance out pretty much.
Cost of inventory plus $3500 for a container and then trucking from LA.
JohnH
well, if you insist, here is a boon. People who tout their “logic” are mostly fooling themselves.
There is nothing “logical” to yur conclusion that Bill’s conclusion is illogical. Assuming the election results are indicative, Bill has about a 55% chance of being right. Logic, either way, has noting to do with it.
Humans are not built for logic. They are built for fast responses to situations about which they have only probabilistic knowledge..and that is not formal double blind random control probability. It’s just “have I seen this before” probability base on limited experience.
Lew Alcindor is a basketball phenom went to catholic high school in NYC. Played for John Wooden at UCLA, a few years before Bill Walton.
He is well spoken.
The recent debate was full of information that both campaigns specifically invited viewers to have. Kareem can hate debates, but that creates no reason to not assess the debate information in considering your vote. I did not see the debate, but reading the coverage and reaction the last couple days has been interesting. It feels orchestrated to pressure Biden to withdraw. And much of this post-debate reaction goes on to make sure we hear that “insiders” and “party elites” very much do not want VP Harris either. It reminded me that months ago a Wisconsin democrat told me she felt that Harris actually was the main target, but that blowing up Biden was the most certain manner to get her, too. There’s a chance that this debate functions as more a part of the Democratic Party nominating process than as a kickoff to the general election.
@Eric,
Interesting and provocative perspective. Thanks for posting this.
Eric:
What debate? Trump dodged answering the questions asked of him (WaPo) and instead filled it with lies. The moderators should have insisted he answer. Since you did not see the so-called debate, there is no basis for your commentary. Biden trusted and should not have done so. As I answered one group:
If democrats did choose another person to run for the presidency, you would not change your vote. You would still vote for trump, a rapist, bigot, liar, and a bully who never soiled those pretty “little” hands of his doing a days labor. What is in your character which forces you or allows you to suport such a person?
You kind of make my point here. You found information from the debate. You are seem inclined to use that information in your assessment of this election campaign. That’s what both candidates expected from this. Had Kareem published this a week ago, it would have likely been little noted, but would have at least felt more authentic. Here he comes off – to me, at least – as both unrealistic and disingenuous. Unrealistic as both candidates wanted this to be seen and disingenuous as it follows what is mostly described as a poor effort by what I feel certain is his preferred candidate. No way he writes this if JRB knocked it put of the park is what I think.
Eric:
I do not make any of your points and you are making things up and failing to recognize your assessment of trump as a sound candidate is erroneous and badly flawed. Your points are the extreme opposite of mine.
I can not support a rapist, a liar, a thief etc. Apparently, you can which speaks loudly to your morality and ethical faults. You do not get to lie in business unless you are a thief. You do not get to cheat. etc. All of this is your foundation for supporting trump.
If Kareem had a crystal ball to see into the future, he would have written about trump’s issues as reflected in this public showing. As it is, he has discussed trump’s foibles in past commentary and one day after the meeting as this was not a debate.
Everything I have written about trump in factual and true. And yet you support him. Do you need a strongman to protect white America Eric? Just wait, the nation will no longer be majority white.
You are the dangerous one posting at Angry Bear. A black man discussing trump. How can that be?
So you do not like very tall black basketball players who have a brain too?
Eric
“unrealistic and disingenuous”
just so you know…i did not think so. I do think you are rationalizing your own political preference. No crime. We all do it. Can’t help it. So I’ll give you my take. I was very unhappy with what was happening to Biden in front of the whole country. My unhappiness did not rise to the level of “he must quit” but to my expectation that this would cause many if not most people to believe that he was too old to be president. I don’t know if he is or not. and after thinking about it, and in view of what he did the next day, i am inclined to hope there may be some explanation for what happened, and nothing like it will happen again. And that “foreign leaders” will be too sophisticated to think that it reflects on “America’s weakness.” They are more likely to look at Trump and think about “America’s unreliability.” But if it happens again, or good doctors examine him carefully and think it is likely to happen again…and they don’t need to tell US what they find…then i hope Biden would withdraw gracefully whil endorsing his successor. It is a tragedy for the country. Not a reason to say “I told you so.” or hope, or allow, a Trump victory, which I think would be the end of the last hope for mankind.
As for you, it is no problem for me if you believe whatever you believe, but I hope for your sake you learn to recognize when you are just believing what you want to believe…and learn to question why you want to believe it.
Lincoln said
for some reason i can’t make this fit on the page. look it up yourself. might inspire you to think about what this country means to the world. once meant.
since allthe above was written the Dems appear to be rallying. I don’t think they would be doing this if there was not some good reason to believe another episode like what hpened during the debate would not occur.
in any case it makes me feel better that they are fighting back.