Dr. Anthony Fauci kicks some Dr. Rand Paul butt
The lies and politics in this are so deep, it defies explanation. How can someone defend Rand’s decision? I sit and listen to this and then I listen to McConnell say the Repubs will appoint a new SCOTUS Justice shortly disallowing a new president from doing so. There is no honor in these people. They would just as soon sell us into slavery if it allows them the status to maintain their position. How will history judge these liars?
Tony! Tony!
Rand is such a jerk.
Sunetra Gupta of Oxford believes that Sweden has gotten to effective herd immunity with no more than 20% seropositive antibody presence because a large portion of the population has a good immunity from other types of coronaviruses antibodies. Sweden, to say the least, hasn’t followed CDC or task force guidelines. Yet their case and fatality data has moved just as sharply to the good as New York’s over the summer. New York seropositivity is approximately 25%. New York -at least in the NYC metro area – may have an immunity explanation for their good data rather than specific actions. Sen. Paul’s comments are probably misguided, but Fauci is kind of silly to complement the fire chief for the low incidence of fire in the months after the inferno. “Things have been admirably quiet since that one 50 alarm fire”.
Eric:
I am at a point where your naysaying lacking factual evidence is boorish. Sunetra Gupta is speculating and even she admits doing so. Sweden citizens will will follow the guidance of their government. Many US morons will not. Even so, Sweden has experienced higher rates of deaths than its neighbors which is an apt comparison. Spending – an indicator of behaviour as well as economic activity – fell by nearly as much in Sweden as in Denmark: 25 per cent compared with 29 per cent. Citymapper phone app, which helps people plan their travel routes, suggests that travel in Stockholm fell to 40 per cent of the normal level. there was a substantial voluntary lockdown in Sweden and yet it wasn’t nearly as effective in reducing the spread of the coronavirus as the compulsory lockdowns in neighboring Denmark and Norway. Sweden has about 8200 confirmed cases per million people as of August 12, compared with 1780 in Norway and 2560 in Denmark. (For the UK it is 4600 and the US 15,400). The other day the US had 35,000 new cases. We actually reached 200,000 deaths (which they announced a day ago) on September 15 which I predicted in August based upon rate. We have an excellent chance of being at 350,000 deaths by the election in November.
Why is that Eric? Because your right-wing critters refuse to socially distance, wear a mask, and want to cycle out to Sturgis to party. THERE IS NO f***ing VACCINE for this shit and you will catch it. If you do not die from it, you stand an excellent chance of of suffering from other health issues affectiong heart, lungs, blood vessels, brain, etc. And while Joel and I talk about the vaccine he has been given, we still do not know if his vaccine will react to Covid and produce antibodies to combat Covid if exposed to Covid.
Your unwillingness to practice safe measures because it supposedly infringes upon your liberties is a joke. Indeed, your unsafe practices infringes upon my liberty to be in a safe environment and not get ill resulting from your ignorance. You are practicing a tyranny of a minority. I swear to god and having practiced wing chun do for 5 years, somebody’s eyeballs will be on the tip of my fingers if they do not keep distance from us. I am no Ip Man but I can make someone wish they never bothered me. I can not stand stupid and you are practicing such here today.
We have a right wing fascist in the White House today who lies every day of the week. Our country is being ruled out of the Senate by another fascist who was almost kicked out of the Army for unpublicized reasons and was fortunate enough to have a senator save his ass by writing a letter. And you want to dispute whether you can get ill from Covid. Go get it and you can report it to us.
This isn’t a discussion, it is a life’s choice by you of life or death or becoming handicapped through serious complications. That I even have to write this angers me.
Sweden’s population? Area? Culture?
If other corona viruses give you immunity could there be a possible smallpox type vaccination possible? Wonder if somebody is looking at that.
But the result I suspect that “herd immunity” wouldn’t work without widespread use of masks. It is that old R-number. You need to push it below 1. If with masks it is 0.8 but without 1.6 (now 3 before) that is the key.
A US Senator turned rightwing internet troll.
I am certainly not a Rand Paul fan, but I have to be objective and go with the data and evidence. Paul is not alone in the science community to entertain the possibility of some type of herd immunity. Dr. Fauci correctly stated that seroprevalence (he used CDC’s 22% for NY) is too low for herd immunity based on what epidemiologists tell us.
The video however stopped before the next exchange between these 2 where Paul brought up the possibility of cross reactive T-cell immunity – the theory being that prior exposure to 4 other endemic “common cold” coronaviruses (2 of which – OC43 and HKU1 – are beta CoVs like SARS-CoV-2) results in T-cells that partially recognize SARS-2 and likely mitigate disease severity (so T-cells don’t necessarily provide immunity from infection just disease severity which could explain why so many are asymptomatic or have mild symptoms) .
Dr. Fauci countered by saying that a recent study came out that showed such cross reactivity does not exist with SARS-2. Dr. Fauci should identify this study. I cannot find this study nor can anyone in my network of researchers find it. This is a big deal so we need to know where it was published.
I can however point out this BMJ article that outlines “at least six studies that have reported T cell reactivity against SARS-CoV-2 in 20% to 50% of people with no known exposure to the virus.” – https://www.bmj.com/content/370/bmj.m3563
We’ve known for months about the possibility of T-cell immunity: ” Importantly, we detected SARS-CoV-2-reactive CD4+ T cells in ∼40%–60% of unexposed individuals, suggesting cross-reactive T cell recognition between circulating “common cold” coronaviruses and SARS-CoV-2.” – https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(20)30610-3…
Adding T-cell’s detected from the study above to seroprevalence data does get to the threshold level of herd immunity suggested by epidemiologists, especially in hard hit places such as NYC. There is certainly more work that needs to be done in this area. I would be interested in locating and reading the study referenced by Dr. Fauci and getting his thoughts on why he feels that the studies that do show possibility of cross reactivity are not to be relied upon.
John:
Thank you.
We do have a teaching Microbiologist here at AB. Perhaps, he will comment.
There are many recent studies out there which are speculative and have not gone through clinical trial. many have shown some degree of positive result. Henry Ford hospitals conducted their own study on HCQ and AZT with 2500 patients and reported positive results. It still should go to clinical trial, it may have been so, but I doubt it. There is billions to be made inventing something new. The pharma industry of which I was a part of is not prone to accept something which shows a glimmer of hope beyond profit.
I assume we are talking about the same T-Cells which can be found in white cells? A quick glance at the two articles was done and I would have to deep dive into them. One comment in the latter did catch my eye. “A failure to develop protective immunity could occur due to a T cell and/or antibody response of insufficient magnitude or durability, with the neutralizing antibody response being dependent on the CD4+ T cell response.”
What are your thoughts on Moderna’s mRNA which is claimed to induce both an antibody and a T-cell response?
The Politics? To your points, the country beyond the citizenry has know a lot of things for years. I see much of this as a failure of the country’s leaders to protect its citizenry. Rand is not a doctor or a member of the science community, he is a politician whose soul is owned by Republicans and trump for whatever reasons. I have “no” reason to believe him or in him fopr political and moral reasons.
It is hard to get a complete You Tube of the dialogue. I was happy to get this one.
Thank you for your response and welcome to AB
There is no evidence that Sweden has achieved what is conventionally understood as “herd immunity.” None.
To achieve herd immunity in the US without hundreds of millions of citizens dead or with long-lasting pathology will require a protective and durable vaccine and ca. 80% of citizens being vaccinated with it. There is no plausible timeline for that any sooner than next summer.
@Run,
Don’t confuse Eric377 with the facts :<)
Irrational rationalizations dominate the thinking of people in desperation, not that Eric377 is among them, but rather that would be his most susceptible target audience. Friend Eric377 just likes to be a nuisance for liberals by repeating stuff that he has heard from the RW media. However, people that are unemployed from businesses that do not transform well to reduced personal contact are very susceptible. Then it is a matter of livelihoods versus lives.
When the government does too little in the short run to address a crisis, then there will usually be more debt accumulated in the long run. More sovereign debt in the currency of the debtor nation is not necessarily a terrible thing, not so bad as a big increase in private debt, but US fiscal deficits are another topic where irrational rationalizations range free.
Trump has played people's ignorance and fear like a cheap fiddle. He is lucky that Covid-19 did not strike before the final year of his term because there is a limit to how long spin can obscure the rising death toll.
https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/12/outbreaks-trump-disease-epidemic-ebola/511127/
How a Pandemic Might Play Out Under Trump
It’s not clear that the next administration is ready to deal with an outbreak of Ebola, flu, or other emerging diseases.
Ed Yong
December 20, 2016 **********************************
In April 2009, just three months after Barack Obama’s inauguration, a new strain of H1N1 swine flu was detected in the United States. It eventually reached pandemic status, spreading to the vast majority of countries and killing more than 18,000 people. In September 2012, in the dusk of Obama’s first term, a new flu-like disease called Middle East Respiratory Syndrome (MERS) was described in Saudi Arabia; America saw two cases. In December 2013, a year into Obama’s second term, the biggest Ebola outbreak in history began in Guinea before spreading to 10 countries and killing 11,000 people; four cases reached the U.S. And by the time the epidemic officially ended in early 2016, the Zika virus has already started sweeping the Americas.
Infectious diseases are emerging faster than ever before. By encroaching into the territories of wild animals, we provide the sparks for new epidemics. By living in increasingly crowded urban areas, we provide the tinder. And by criss-crossing the skies in countless planes, we transform small fires into global conflagrations.
Obama had a good track record of responding to these threats, and channeling funds into fighting outbreaks around the world—as did his predecessor George W. Bush. As Donald Trump prepares to become America’s 45th President in January 2017, the question isn’t whether he’ll face a deadly outbreak during his presidency, but when?…
BTW, “How a Pandemic Might Play Out Under Trump” from The Atlantic linked above with brief opening excerpt was more than just prophetic and prescient, it is eerie now given that it was written before Trump was even inaugurated.
He’s trying to kill us. Didn’t want testing. Lied about the aerosol xfer, would gladly have sent a million teachers and stunts to their deaths’.
At some point it became criminal.
@Ken,
“…stunts to their deaths’…”
[Holy Evel Knievel, Batman.]
Run75441:
Thanks for the welcome.
Re: “What are your thoughts on Moderna’s mRNA which is claimed to induce both an antibody and a T-cell response?”
It does sound interesting but I am a bit wary. mRNA vaccines like Moderna’s are definitely experimental, novel and untested so far. An mRNA vaccine has never been developed for humans as far as I know. Some things I’ve come across also suggest mRNA response may cause cytokine storms by dysregulating immune systems and they have caused autoimmune disease in laboratory animals. Additionally, past animal trials show fatalities when exposed later to natural virus. Given possible unknowns it should definitely not be rushed, which is true in general for all vaccines developed, but in this case probably more so. We don’t need another resulting vaccine disaster like the Fort Dix outbreak in 1976. Even if/when the Moderna vaccine became available, I would likely wait a while before receiving it.
“I assume we are talking about the same T-Cells which can be found in white cells?” Yes.
I hear you on the politics and failure of leadership. Public health is much too important to become politicized. Unfortunately this entire pandemic has become just that.
John:
In facr Moderna’s mRNA is in Phase III clinical trials. One of our commenters is a recipient of it and believes he may have received the real thing and not the placebo.
Run75441
That’s interesting. Why does the commenter believe he did not receive the placebo?
Ultimately it comes down to individual risk assessment as well it should. Being an overly cautious person that tends not to be an early adopter is what causes me to hit the pause button so to speak. Back in July Moderna made a good move by scrapping the high dose for phase 3 since the high dose was associated with some systemic adverse events in enough people in earlier trials. In terms of short term safety and efficacy I can only rely on the trial data to appropriately judge it. My main concern is the long-term safety of any vaccine developed on this accelerated timeline and in particular very low-frequency adverse events that phase 3 trials, despite their large size, may be unable to detect. Perhaps it will ultimately prove to be an unwarranted concern and I certainly hope so.
The reason I, and a friend in the Emory study, both believe we are in the vaccine arm is because about 12 hrs after the booster, we had headache, muscle ache, joint ache and fever, all typical reactions to a vaccine and none reactions to the saline placebo. The symptoms didn’t include respiratory reactions. I had myself tested with an antibody test to the nucleocapsid protein, which was negative, so I know I’ve not been infected. So far, I haven’t found a commercial antibody test for the spike protein, which is what the antigen is in the Moderna trial.
As a PS, the experience my friend and I had was described in the phase 1/2 data. It is a bit silly to call this a double blind, given the data from phase 1/2 showing patient reaction to the vaccine. But I don’t see any evidence of safety issues. The animal results make me optimistic about efficacy, at least over the short term. Too soon to comment on durability.
Unlike the AstraZentica trial, there is no viral vector in the Moderna vaccine.
Joel:
Thank you for your comments. There is a certain point I will not exceed in answering for anyone out here at AB. I knew you would probably read my comment and John’s and decide yourself. It really is educational to see the process in action.
Joel,
Thank you for the detailed response regarding your experience.