On the 40th anniversary of the “liberation” of South Vietnam — three years after the South had cleaned out the hated Vietcong guerrillas, which neutralized the North Vietnamese main force units (think We Were Soldiers Once and Young) who then had no place to hide their supplies (they were eating grass) and finally fended off an outside overt invasion from the North inflicting 50% casualties.
Wild Bill Westmoreland pursued exactly the opposite strategy needed to fend off Ho Chi Minh who would have been happy to see every person in Vietnam die as long as the last breath was taken by a Communist (not much of an exaggeration): attrition. Defense Secretary McNamara wasn’t much brighter with his approach of applying gradually increasing pressure.
Ho started his career in the North by sending terror squads into villages; typically they would read off the names of 5 boys who had participated in some government sports or education program; shoot the boys; and when the village got the idea a maintenance squad would take over while the terror squad moved on to the next victims.
After Ho won the election in the North he shot 50,000 peasants and put 100,000 in reeducation camps for being for being “capitalist exploiters” — according a formula of how many pigs you had, etc. 98% of the peasants in the North owned the land that they tilled (70% in the South) but Communists have to have their land reform. A year after the election Ho’s own home province revolted against the commune-ization of the land and the mind control police state. An infantry division was sent in that killed 6,000 peasants (and wounded ???) Northern population: 13 million.
During the Tet offensive Battle of Hue as portrayed in the movie Full Metal Jacket the temporarily occupying Cong sent out to cops, teachers and anybody who worked for the government to come in for reeducation — who shot instead and buried in trench graves. The move said the body count was 20 — Wiki says 3,000. The biggest effect of the Tet Offensive may have been to make the people in the cities hate the Vietcong as much as the people in the countryside — allowing doubling the size of the South’s army.
The Vietcong were the Communist version of ISIS. This made their critical weakness their lack of genuine support — indeed everybody’s wish to get rid of them which was accomplished once Wild Bill went on his way. Besides the regular South Vietnamese army there were 4 million in various forms of local defense forces. As one writer put it: if the people in the villages opposed the government, why did the government send 600,000 M-16 rifles into the villages to complement their older American weapons?
So what went wrong? Why, almost exactly 3 years after the Northern overt invasion was beaten off, did what should have been an even better trained, even better equipped South get run over in six weeks like there was nothing in the way? Because the South didn’t even have enough ammunition. Six months after the 1972 invasion our brilliant Democratic Congress cut financial support to a trickle and cut all air support.
It still took the North 3 years to come back — presumably needed to raise a new crop of 17-18 year olds.
I read of Ho in the North in French political scientist Bernard Fall’s The Two Vietnams — a book that was too dry and scholarly for me to read in my twenties.
A late entry is The Sorrow of War, an autobiographical novel by a Norther soldier whose Glorious 27th Youth Brigade went out with 500 and came back with 10.
For a picture of life in the countryside see Bing West’s The Village. Too typical Communist action: killing 85 people in one hamlet because “most” of them switched sides — or killing a girl in front of her family for taking in GI laundry.
Well, I’ve read a lot about Vietnam also, including a 700-page biography of Ho Chi Minh ( Ho Chi Minh: A Life, by William J. Duiker), and my understanding of the war is almost the exact opposite of yours. Don’t see much point in arguing about it, though.
I can only guess but the sharpest anti-Ho comparison I can make is the leadership of North Korea invading South Korea: same motive, same scale of human destruction — unfortunately for the South, very different ending.
Not that South Vietnam was on its way to being a manufacturing giant — the Reebok (unless they’re knock offs :-)) shoes I’m wearing and my Cannon printer were made in Vietnam.
Ho was working with the OSS to put the Japanese. Then the US put the French back in.
Denis,
You been reading WSJ myths about the war?
The only folks less popular than Uncle Ho in Vietnam were the US’ puppets, the war lords and the drug lord who raped the south.
To keep the Thieus and Kongs in power would have required the US’ version of the Gestapo to kill them all in the way Hitler planned for Russia and Ukraine.
Yes, the Viet Minh under Ho worked with the OSS in WWII, among other things rescuing US airmen shot down by the Japanese over Vietnam. After the war, the US supported French re-colonization of Vietnam. When the Viet Minh defeated the French in 1954, they were persuaded by the USSR and China to accept temporary partition into regroupment zones, the north for the Viet Minh and the south for the French. Elections were planned for 1956, but it was assumed Ho would win, so elections were never held.
Even after 1956 passed with no elections, Ho ordered the southern Viet Minh to be patient while he tried to obtain a peaceful solution. However, the southern Viet Minh were being attacked by South Vietnamese forces, and ultimately they were allowed to fight back. The US had to send “advisors” and then large numbers of troops to prevent the Viet Minh from winning. North Vietnam sent its army troops to South Vietnam only after the US did. (There were Viet Minh that went to the south before this, but they were almost all southern Viet Minh that had gone north as part of the temporary regroupment.). So essentially, there was a civil was in South Vietnam between the southern Viet Minh and the government of South Vietnam, with the US and then North Vietnam sending troops to support their respective sides.
The US lost very little (strategic “value”) by leaving in Apr 1975.
My view of my generation’s war changed radically from my youth. Most influential was a Special Forces officer I knew from the 80’s on. He had advised at the front line unit level and several years later at a higher level of command. He observed “corruption” in the higher commands.
He gave me a paperback of Prochnau’s “Once Upon a Distant War”. He agreed with the points made by Prochnau, Halberstam, Sheehan and Arnott pointing out the mess the US was getting into in 1963. It is a lot shorter than “Best and Brightest”, which I had read before this.
To win in Vietnam for the corrupt would have demanded killing at Stalin and Hitler proportions.
We would have lost very little (strategic “value”) by leaving Vietnam in 1963 with Diem trying to hold on.
We all lost quite a bit there. All the walls and monuments in the world could not replace one of my friends lost there. It was a sacrifice too great for the 58,000 causalities. Fall does a good job documenting what occurred there with the French and the Americans. We were so young then and vulnerable.
Vietnam was no longer a French colony in 1949. In 1954 the French Army was defending the government from Communist insurgents.
* * * * * * * * * *
Was the Korean War a civil war too? Did the good guys (the North) fail there thanks out our “imperialist” efforts?
Getting maybe 10 million killed and wounded out of a population of 33 million is Hitler/Stalin level killing. What did Ho want to accomplish that justified that level of devastation? If you ask Ho, he would have given an honest answer: his Communist ideology was all.
* * * * * * * * * *
Why were we there? Our knees were still shaking 20 years after WWII whence two little countries with one time zone had almost taken over the world. Now, the two biggest countries in the world — by land and population — with bombs that could leave a half-mile deep crater where Hiroshima used to be — said they were coming after us — “We will bury you” “Your children will live under Communism.” We were afraid that is we let super aggressive Ho (or North Korea) loose to invade where he wanted that other less aggressive Hos and Ches (Che no mass killer) would break out all over the world — whether or not that was realistic, that was the fear of the time.
BTW, Russia was ahead of us in space and jet engine technology (their intercontinental bomber had 4 engines to our B-52’s 8) and its economy was (supposedly) growing 7% a year to our 3%. In 1965, Communism was at very high tide.
By 1975, we had won globally — Communism was receding — we could afford to lose locally. We not the Vietnamese.
Two kids in my Boy Scout “patrol” did not come home from Vietnam. Our leaders were all WW II, we with the rest of the troop marched each Memorial Day in the small town.
America has made the same mistakes, at a small cost in lives but a huge cost in treasure taken from kids in Baltimore, as Vietnam in the greater middle east since 1980.
ilsm
********
Vietnam was no longer a French colony in 1949. In 1954 the French Army was defending the government from Communist insurgents.
* * * * * * * * * *
Who ran Vietnam in 1950? Just wondering. When were the 1954 elections allowed? Never, because the republicans could not gerrymander and deny voters………..!
Was the Korean War a civil war too? Did the good guys (the North) fail in Korea thanks out US’ “imperialist” efforts?
Were the “northerners” in Korea in 1950 Mao’s tools or were they getting support from the nearby powers? Who was “our guy” in the south? Was he a nationalist?
When did the south part of Korea have a real election? Have they threw out their fascists. When did the current regime allow the people of the south to get any information about No Gun Ri?
As an aside: putting Korean police action with Vietnam wars may be false equivalence.
ilsm
Getting maybe 10 million killed and wounded out of a population of 33 million is Hitler/Stalin level killing. What did Ho want to accomplish that justified that level of devastation? If you ask Ho, he would have given an honest answer: his Communist ideology was all.
********
Most; since Vietnam now makes toilets for Home Depot, consider Ho a nationalist. Standing up to Merika justifies Merika killing all that it takes to put them down?
ilsm
* * * * * * * * * *
Why were we there? Our knees were still shaking 20 years after WWII whence two little countries with one time zone had almost taken over the world. Now, the two biggest countries in the world — by land and population — with bombs that could leave a half-mile deep crater where Hiroshima used to be — said they were coming after us — “We will bury you” “Your children will live under Communism.” We were afraid that is we let super aggressive Ho (or North Korea) loose to invade where he wanted that other less aggressive Hos and Ches (Che no mass killer) would break out all over the world — whether or not that was realistic, that was the fear of the time.
*********
Domino theory, a form of insanity that made a lot of people a lot of money.
Irrational fear pumped by Birchers and war profiteers.
ilsm
*********
BTW, Russia was ahead of us in space and jet engine technology (their intercontinental bomber had 4 engines to our B-52′s 8) and its economy was (supposedly) growing 7% a year to our 3%. In 1965, Communism was at very high tide.
***********
From 1972 on I was an Air Force techie. Quite a bit in the strategic forces. The Bears were turbo-props. Saturn put US put in “space”.
ilsm
***********
By 1975, we had won globally — Communism was receding — we could afford to lose locally. We not the Vietnamese.
*********
By 1945 US had won, the rest were paranoid raging for war profits. Why US did not go into China? US military men who had won WW II recognized that Chiang was a fascist with no popular support. Why they made the mistakes in 1950 and 1954 are a mystery, unless you realize the influence of money in war.
In the end I thought the US opposed guys who acted on “might makes right” or a “few eggs need to be broken to make an omelet”…….
On the 40th anniversary of the “liberation” of South Vietnam — three years after the South had cleaned out the hated Vietcong guerrillas, which neutralized the North Vietnamese main force units (think We Were Soldiers Once and Young) who then had no place to hide their supplies (they were eating grass) and finally fended off an outside overt invasion from the North inflicting 50% casualties.
Wild Bill Westmoreland pursued exactly the opposite strategy needed to fend off Ho Chi Minh who would have been happy to see every person in Vietnam die as long as the last breath was taken by a Communist (not much of an exaggeration): attrition. Defense Secretary McNamara wasn’t much brighter with his approach of applying gradually increasing pressure.
Ho started his career in the North by sending terror squads into villages; typically they would read off the names of 5 boys who had participated in some government sports or education program; shoot the boys; and when the village got the idea a maintenance squad would take over while the terror squad moved on to the next victims.
After Ho won the election in the North he shot 50,000 peasants and put 100,000 in reeducation camps for being for being “capitalist exploiters” — according a formula of how many pigs you had, etc. 98% of the peasants in the North owned the land that they tilled (70% in the South) but Communists have to have their land reform. A year after the election Ho’s own home province revolted against the commune-ization of the land and the mind control police state. An infantry division was sent in that killed 6,000 peasants (and wounded ???) Northern population: 13 million.
During the Tet offensive Battle of Hue as portrayed in the movie Full Metal Jacket the temporarily occupying Cong sent out to cops, teachers and anybody who worked for the government to come in for reeducation — who shot instead and buried in trench graves. The move said the body count was 20 — Wiki says 3,000. The biggest effect of the Tet Offensive may have been to make the people in the cities hate the Vietcong as much as the people in the countryside — allowing doubling the size of the South’s army.
The Vietcong were the Communist version of ISIS. This made their critical weakness their lack of genuine support — indeed everybody’s wish to get rid of them which was accomplished once Wild Bill went on his way. Besides the regular South Vietnamese army there were 4 million in various forms of local defense forces. As one writer put it: if the people in the villages opposed the government, why did the government send 600,000 M-16 rifles into the villages to complement their older American weapons?
So what went wrong? Why, almost exactly 3 years after the Northern overt invasion was beaten off, did what should have been an even better trained, even better equipped South get run over in six weeks like there was nothing in the way? Because the South didn’t even have enough ammunition. Six months after the 1972 invasion our brilliant Democratic Congress cut financial support to a trickle and cut all air support.
It still took the North 3 years to come back — presumably needed to raise a new crop of 17-18 year olds.
I read of Ho in the North in French political scientist Bernard Fall’s The Two Vietnams — a book that was too dry and scholarly for me to read in my twenties.
A late entry is The Sorrow of War, an autobiographical novel by a Norther soldier whose Glorious 27th Youth Brigade went out with 500 and came back with 10.
My recent understanding of the first-won/then-lost history comes from probably the best book on the war A Better War: The Unexamined Victories and Final Tragedy of America’s Last Years in Vietnam by Lewis Sorley.
For a picture of life in the countryside see Bing West’s The Village. Too typical Communist action: killing 85 people in one hamlet because “most” of them switched sides — or killing a girl in front of her family for taking in GI laundry.
Oh, oh; looks like I goofed with the stuff somewhere above.
Well, I’ve read a lot about Vietnam also, including a 700-page biography of Ho Chi Minh ( Ho Chi Minh: A Life, by William J. Duiker), and my understanding of the war is almost the exact opposite of yours. Don’t see much point in arguing about it, though.
I can only guess but the sharpest anti-Ho comparison I can make is the leadership of North Korea invading South Korea: same motive, same scale of human destruction — unfortunately for the South, very different ending.
Not that South Vietnam was on its way to being a manufacturing giant — the Reebok (unless they’re knock offs :-)) shoes I’m wearing and my Cannon printer were made in Vietnam.
Mike B,
Ho was working with the OSS to put the Japanese. Then the US put the French back in.
Denis,
You been reading WSJ myths about the war?
The only folks less popular than Uncle Ho in Vietnam were the US’ puppets, the war lords and the drug lord who raped the south.
To keep the Thieus and Kongs in power would have required the US’ version of the Gestapo to kill them all in the way Hitler planned for Russia and Ukraine.
You think John Wayne movies are history!.
“or killing a girl in front of her family for taking in GI laundry.”
Seems like shooting Michael Brown down for being a big black kids is okay now?
ilsm,
Yes, the Viet Minh under Ho worked with the OSS in WWII, among other things rescuing US airmen shot down by the Japanese over Vietnam. After the war, the US supported French re-colonization of Vietnam. When the Viet Minh defeated the French in 1954, they were persuaded by the USSR and China to accept temporary partition into regroupment zones, the north for the Viet Minh and the south for the French. Elections were planned for 1956, but it was assumed Ho would win, so elections were never held.
Even after 1956 passed with no elections, Ho ordered the southern Viet Minh to be patient while he tried to obtain a peaceful solution. However, the southern Viet Minh were being attacked by South Vietnamese forces, and ultimately they were allowed to fight back. The US had to send “advisors” and then large numbers of troops to prevent the Viet Minh from winning. North Vietnam sent its army troops to South Vietnam only after the US did. (There were Viet Minh that went to the south before this, but they were almost all southern Viet Minh that had gone north as part of the temporary regroupment.). So essentially, there was a civil was in South Vietnam between the southern Viet Minh and the government of South Vietnam, with the US and then North Vietnam sending troops to support their respective sides.
The US lost very little (strategic “value”) by leaving in Apr 1975.
My view of my generation’s war changed radically from my youth. Most influential was a Special Forces officer I knew from the 80’s on. He had advised at the front line unit level and several years later at a higher level of command. He observed “corruption” in the higher commands.
He gave me a paperback of Prochnau’s “Once Upon a Distant War”. He agreed with the points made by Prochnau, Halberstam, Sheehan and Arnott pointing out the mess the US was getting into in 1963. It is a lot shorter than “Best and Brightest”, which I had read before this.
To win in Vietnam for the corrupt would have demanded killing at Stalin and Hitler proportions.
We would have lost very little (strategic “value”) by leaving Vietnam in 1963 with Diem trying to hold on.
ilsm:
We all lost quite a bit there. All the walls and monuments in the world could not replace one of my friends lost there. It was a sacrifice too great for the 58,000 causalities. Fall does a good job documenting what occurred there with the French and the Americans. We were so young then and vulnerable.
Vietnam was no longer a French colony in 1949. In 1954 the French Army was defending the government from Communist insurgents.
* * * * * * * * * *
Was the Korean War a civil war too? Did the good guys (the North) fail there thanks out our “imperialist” efforts?
Getting maybe 10 million killed and wounded out of a population of 33 million is Hitler/Stalin level killing. What did Ho want to accomplish that justified that level of devastation? If you ask Ho, he would have given an honest answer: his Communist ideology was all.
* * * * * * * * * *
Why were we there? Our knees were still shaking 20 years after WWII whence two little countries with one time zone had almost taken over the world. Now, the two biggest countries in the world — by land and population — with bombs that could leave a half-mile deep crater where Hiroshima used to be — said they were coming after us — “We will bury you” “Your children will live under Communism.” We were afraid that is we let super aggressive Ho (or North Korea) loose to invade where he wanted that other less aggressive Hos and Ches (Che no mass killer) would break out all over the world — whether or not that was realistic, that was the fear of the time.
BTW, Russia was ahead of us in space and jet engine technology (their intercontinental bomber had 4 engines to our B-52’s 8) and its economy was (supposedly) growing 7% a year to our 3%. In 1965, Communism was at very high tide.
By 1975, we had won globally — Communism was receding — we could afford to lose locally. We not the Vietnamese.
run,
Two kids in my Boy Scout “patrol” did not come home from Vietnam. Our leaders were all WW II, we with the rest of the troop marched each Memorial Day in the small town.
Denis,
America has made the same mistakes, at a small cost in lives but a huge cost in treasure taken from kids in Baltimore, as Vietnam in the greater middle east since 1980.
ilsm
********
Vietnam was no longer a French colony in 1949. In 1954 the French Army was defending the government from Communist insurgents.
* * * * * * * * * *
Who ran Vietnam in 1950? Just wondering. When were the 1954 elections allowed? Never, because the republicans could not gerrymander and deny voters………..!
Was the Korean War a civil war too? Did the good guys (the North) fail in Korea thanks out US’ “imperialist” efforts?
Were the “northerners” in Korea in 1950 Mao’s tools or were they getting support from the nearby powers? Who was “our guy” in the south? Was he a nationalist?
When did the south part of Korea have a real election? Have they threw out their fascists. When did the current regime allow the people of the south to get any information about No Gun Ri?
As an aside: putting Korean police action with Vietnam wars may be false equivalence.
ilsm
Getting maybe 10 million killed and wounded out of a population of 33 million is Hitler/Stalin level killing. What did Ho want to accomplish that justified that level of devastation? If you ask Ho, he would have given an honest answer: his Communist ideology was all.
********
Most; since Vietnam now makes toilets for Home Depot, consider Ho a nationalist. Standing up to Merika justifies Merika killing all that it takes to put them down?
ilsm
* * * * * * * * * *
Why were we there? Our knees were still shaking 20 years after WWII whence two little countries with one time zone had almost taken over the world. Now, the two biggest countries in the world — by land and population — with bombs that could leave a half-mile deep crater where Hiroshima used to be — said they were coming after us — “We will bury you” “Your children will live under Communism.” We were afraid that is we let super aggressive Ho (or North Korea) loose to invade where he wanted that other less aggressive Hos and Ches (Che no mass killer) would break out all over the world — whether or not that was realistic, that was the fear of the time.
*********
Domino theory, a form of insanity that made a lot of people a lot of money.
Irrational fear pumped by Birchers and war profiteers.
ilsm
*********
BTW, Russia was ahead of us in space and jet engine technology (their intercontinental bomber had 4 engines to our B-52′s 8) and its economy was (supposedly) growing 7% a year to our 3%. In 1965, Communism was at very high tide.
***********
From 1972 on I was an Air Force techie. Quite a bit in the strategic forces. The Bears were turbo-props. Saturn put US put in “space”.
ilsm
***********
By 1975, we had won globally — Communism was receding — we could afford to lose locally. We not the Vietnamese.
*********
By 1945 US had won, the rest were paranoid raging for war profits. Why US did not go into China? US military men who had won WW II recognized that Chiang was a fascist with no popular support. Why they made the mistakes in 1950 and 1954 are a mystery, unless you realize the influence of money in war.
In the end I thought the US opposed guys who acted on “might makes right” or a “few eggs need to be broken to make an omelet”…….
ilsm