Neither of these tells us how long we need to apply the stimulus. Baker indicates (in the linked post) that there is $6T in lost wealth. If we need to wait until the wealth is going to be recovered until consumers can hold up their side of spending so the government does not need to, it will be years. 15T at 5 percent savings rate => 8 years.
An average of $500B over 8 years is a lot of stimulus. It is quite a bump in debt.
Aside from real wars and Reagan’s star wars, spending has never been the cause of big deficits. As Karl Smith put it: “However, I want to make the more general point that spending is pretty much never the cause of budget deficits. Or, to be a bit more formal, variations in spending do not predict variations in the deficit. Variations in tax revenue, however, do predict variations in the deficit.”
We were in a huge debt sitaution after WWII – Debt/GDP was 120% The slowly decreased over 35 years to something in the low 30% range – not because we paid down debt, but because we grew GDP.
Ww are in a debt situation now because of tax cuts and nfened war efforts. Get rid of those things and we can affort all sorts of stimulus.
I intended a focus on employment. The whole concept of stimulus is that you can improve employment if you are willing to accept debt. If $1.2T would guarantee to move us to a sustainable 5 percent unemployment in a single year …
My question is how long does it really take. You clearly need less stimulus the second year and less yet the third, but (absent a new bubble) how long does it take for consumers to want to spend at the same rate. Is consumer debt overhang enough of an issue to have a strong impact? Is calculating it in actually meaningful?
The basleine spending is increaseing at 8%. The supposed lost revenue is $6.2 Trillion from 2002 thru 2011. The problem here is that the projection is based on an economy that benefited from the tax cut, so is that number accurate?
Assuming the projection is accurate, that leaves a supposed loss of $620 Billion a year. We are running a $1.5 Trillion deficit now, and projected to be over a $1 Trillion as far as the eye can see. This exposes a spending problem not a revenue problem. The War spending during the same Period is only one years worth of Deficit Spending….even though I would like to quit spending money in the Middle East…it is clear that it also is not a main source of the problem in our deficit spending.
Under Bush the deficit was decreaseing when he left, and was manageable based on growth. The origin of the famous comment from Cheney, “Deficits don’t matter.” Besides if we were to eliminate the Obama Tax Cuts now, and we assumed a growth economy as good a Bush’s, then we only get $80 Billion/year from the upper Bracket. So the majority of the money would come from the middle and lower class….and I thought that was off limits to the Left?
Has the past 33 months seen an increase in employment?
Cut the war machine.
A tariff or two hundred and lowered deficts mean less demand filled by India and China.
US needs to balance its trade to get employment up.
May be a bit xenophobic, but the Chinese have pegged on the US$ and we tried that, borrowing like crazies freshly printed money on inflated houses did not work.
Maybe the tea party will try nullification to keep their multi national masters happy.
By the way – spending is up bcause the economy is down — it’s going to unemplyment and other progrms that kick in during hard times. The myth that Obama is a big spender is a pernicious lie.
The deficit is horrible because reciepts are down – now only 14 or 15% of depressed GDP. Debt/GDP is taking a hit in the numerator and the denominator.
The solution is growth, as we saw during the golden age after WW II.
I leave you two to the founding fathers’ north carolina brand.
The calvinists know that big insurance and big pharma are the select of god and must do their duty to him and plunder the unhealthy who by definition are spawn of Cain.
There is the “Commerce Clause”, let’s see how it is interpretted by the SCOTUS.
Let’s wait to see the deliberations in that 9 member panel.
I am waiting for a repeal of emancipation because that is against calvinism as taught by the founding fathers in north carolina, and other true “under god” states.
No, they did not strike down the entre ACA. The objected (in a split ruling) to the mandate of everyone must have insurance. States still ve to expand Medicaid. 6th District ruled in favor of healthcare.
These are dark days for Liberals, er Progressives, worldwide.
First, redistributionist governments are proverbially running out of Other Peoples Money. Conservatives predicted this.
Second, the events in the UK, are showing the degeneration of societies under the welfare state. Conservatives predicted this also.
And lastly, your getaway car – Global Warming!, er Climate Change! has turned out to be a huge lemon, with a transmission that will only shift out of “Park” into “Reverse.” Conservatives predicted this also.
So your only options are 1) Denial, or 2) Claiming your leader, Obama, is incompetent.
you may be talking about uncontrolled entitlements, but i prefer to talk about Social Security which pays for itself and has nothing to do with the deficit, and Medicare which used to be that way, and should be put back that way.
as it happens i don’t like the individual mandate and i hope the Court finds it unconstitutional. i don’t think they will because the justices are pretty good at making their reasons fit their politics, and the Health Care Industry is all for the Mandate.
Nor would I dispute that the left has a sufficiency of hypocrites to make a viable political party. probably about as many as the right. but for the last thirty years or so… sixty if you count the McCarthy era… the left has been saner than the right … and that’s worth a little hypocrisy.
but somehow i think you wouldn’t need any evidence at all to conclude that whatever the left does it is being hypocritical.
Sammy, don’t forget the progressive/liberal environmental and energy policies which have slowed so much of our development. Conservatives have predicted this also.
Sometimes when reading Sammy’s posts I think I’m reading “The Onion.”
Running out of other people’s money. Wow! Great Britain and the U.S are leaders in wealth and income inequality. Over the past 4 decades, redistribution has been from the poor to the rich, and most especially skewed toward the very richest.
Meanwhile, which countries have been among the least affected by the global financial crisis? Those socialist hell-holes Norway, Sweden, and Denmark.
I especially love this:
And lastly, your getaway car – Global Warming!, er Climate Change! has turned out to be a huge lemon,
The two warmest years on record: 2005 and 2010. Any takers that 2011 isn’t hotter still? Either way, the annual global mean temperature has been above the 20th century average for 34 consecutive years. 2010 was also the wettest year on record. Some humid coincidence.
By the way, you are offering a false choice. I do deny all of your bovine excrement, and also claim Obama is not exactly incompetent, but far, far too conservative, which is almost but not quite the same thing.
I recognize you both insist that the poor, aged and infirm, whom the progressive/liberal, environmental and energy tree huggers love, are the “spawn of Cain”. They deserve the suffering of the entire world.
The Euro/US world is/did not bail the poor, they are bailing the rich banksters by robbing the poor and labor.
The Celtic Tiger was running large surpluses when their housing bubble burst and they entered recession, the calvinist German bankers’ loans got into trouble. The Irish gumint robbed the potato farmers for the Germans.
The German bankers are good calvinists predestined to be bailed out! On the back of the “spawn of Cain”.
Then there is Spain, I know a little part of the coast of that country where Brits and other Northern Europeans, the select of calvin, borrowed huge sums on Spanish banks financed by the Germans’ Euros, and when the bubble burst the Spanish banks held the bag and the Spanish poor bailed the Germans out.
This entire depression is a balance sheet depression the Euro/US zone followed the bubbles Bush/Greenspan inflated.
When they went bust they pulled a reverse Robin Hood.
Very calvinistic!
This week those economy ruiners at Freddie magnanimously “bought” $500M of toilet paper called MBS from BoA.
Fred/Fanny should be shut down, so no one can buy any real estate and BoA goes to the liquidation process.
The US wasted $2.4T in accumulated excess payroll tax receipts on war profits and tax cuts for calvin’s select and $750B for MBS from wall st.
Now the war profiteers and banksters don’t want to give any up so the aged get cat food.
Very calvinist.
Historical note, “spawn of Cain” is from a document justifying slave holding in 17th century British colonies in North America.
I find it strange that the same people championing the 50s and 60s also advocate large reductions in military spending. The 50s and 60s were periods when the U.S. governments spent heavily on defense.
Dan Unless they are regarded as comic relief I submit to you that sammy and corev are a stain on this blog site. Strange ideas coupled with falsifications and multiplied by inane conservative, make tha Tea Bagger, talking points. It’s like having Michelle Bachmann and Herman Cain on board to argue the finer points of government and economic development. No, our trolls do not even reach the level of Mitt Romney. That they both harp continuously on the poor and unemployed as though one chooses those lots in life is a sad commentary on their own disregard for what ever good fortune they have both enjoyed in their own lives. Theirs are not conservative values. They are selfish and, to a lesser extent current Republican values.
Today’s NYT brings us the latest in austerity innovation from Central Falls RI where managers are exploring ways to keep bondholders whole while stiffing retired policemen, firefighters and other workers. But fear not, the city promises not to let pensions drop below $10K/yearly.
And of course the city saw fit to exempt their employees from social security to save the taxes so they are doubly screwed. But at least they don’t have to worry about their SS benefits getting whacked, as Dr. Black observed.
So how do we categorize those workers who are now facing hard times in their senior years? Are they welfare recipients expecting a hand out? Are they the “spawn of Cain”? Or, are they rubes having been swindled by the past? I didn’t notice any discussion in that article about cutting the pay of elec ted officials who are deciding to cut the earned pensions of their former employees. Isn’t is peculiar how in our country unearned income is always more favorably regarded than earned income? Too bad that the article doesn’t go into more detail about the portion of the pensions funds, or what is left of the funds, was worker contributions. Has a worker who put aside his own current income, in order to fund his retirement, no standing in court? Were those funds not required to be in some form of a sequestered account?
Maybe if enough middle class workers, which is what it sounds like in the articel referenced by AS, begin to face this sort of legal embezzelmant of their own savings there will be an appropriate back lash against those politicians who regard workers as undeserving of financial protection.
Money quote: “For the first time the letter pegs the cost of bringing AT&T’s LTE coverage from 80% to 97% at $3.8 billion — quite a cost difference from the $39 billion price tag on the T-Mobile deal. “
Explain to me again how corporations are smarter and more efficient than evil government bureaucrats. Type very slowly.
Sure – way better for them to drop $40B buying out a major competitor than bothering with actually competing on service and or price. Nothing corrupt or dishonest about that no sir.
“In Greece it is 70,000.’ To get around pay restraints in the calendar year the Greek government simply paid employees a 13th and even 14th monthly salary—months that didn’t exist.”
The pentagon and cronies are trillions ahead of the Greek government.
In the US congress they see need for the F-35 which cannot be kept in the air, and plan to spend up to $15T so that the Air Force can have the fiction of air superiority over some unimportant territory run by thugs, or against a new generation of SUKHOI that have no engines.
The fiction for justifying 12 100,000 Ton nuclear carriers to fight the Imperial Japanese carriers again.
I could go on about $700B of spending, using borrowed money for war profiteers fictions.
It is easier to steal from the poor than expose the greed and fiction of the war machine.
In fact I don’t think there were any Catholics either.
OK, so Bill Richardson (D) was a Catholic. I’ll see your Catholic and call you with a Mormon. For the record, since your side likes to keep track of these things, there are also a woman and a black Republican candidate.
So the good old race card doesn’t apply here. The truth is, people of all stripes can see the failures of Liberalism, and so are attracted to it’s opposite – Conservatism
Sammy, ever since your comment a week or so ago re: is it liberal beliefs or Obama causing the angst, I have reviewed the many comments here and else where from that criteria. As time goes on your assertions appears to be true.
Furthermore, we have more persistent calls from the liberal wing to close down comments with alternative views. How many times have we seen it here? I also see it on the AGW believer blogs where the realization of their AGW beliefs being wrong is also expanding. The difference between the two groups is there is no Obama to blame for the AGW crowd.
I guess its just another type self preservation denial. Few are strong enough to admit a life time of beliefs are wrong.
Not to mention the way the battle for jobs in the post merger AT&T&T will provide a little extra leverage against the CWA at contract time. This is the kind of twofer that will get CEO Randall Stephenson a few extra million at bonus time.
Good thing he doesn’t need to worry about customers who can actually pay cell phone and broadband bills. Oh wait.
I guess its just another type self preservation denial. Few are strong enough to admit a life time of beliefs are wrong.
It’s more than that. A great deal Liberals’ self estemm comes from their belief that advocating spending Other Peoples Money and expanding government makes them A Good Person. Without access to OPM, they will actually have to DO SOMETHING to get the psychological benefits and accolades that come from benificence. Contributing to charity or volunteering is a lot more work. However, criticizing conservatives’ spending cuts may serve the same purpose.
If we get this thing turned around and get America back to what made it great – limited government, freedom, and self-reliance (a big “if”), then another critical foundation of the Liberal psyche – that Liberals-are-so-much-smarter,-more-enlightened-and-more-well-intentioned-than-the-rest-of us-plebes, and therefore-can-tell-everyone-what-to-do, will be crushed.
So this Obama meltdown is a very serious threat to them, on a personal level.
In some industries, those with large, proprietary capital investment, consolidation is the most-efficient outcome. For example it doesn’t make sense for two different railroads to build paralell tracks, nor is it economic for AT&T to build redundant cell stations to Tmobile.
In fact government supports this. They created the AT&T, Post Office, and local utility monopolies, as well as many other oligopolies like the railroads, airlines, and cable TV. In fact, patents are enforced monopolies.
Well at least Lord Stephenson will still insist on maximizing competition when it comes to paying the workers that create his fat bonus and salary. Hooray competition!
“Neither were there any among the 2008 Democratic presidential candidates” sammy
Nice try Sammy, but I wasn’t referring to candidates running for office. I was referring to attendees at Perry’s National Day of Prayer. Apparently Rick prefers salvation by his god for those who may need our help on Earth. I’d rather rely on Social Security, social justice and a secular government whose elected officials know the Constitution as well as they think they know the Bible.
The late Molly Ivins tried to warn the country against hiring TX governors as president once. The failure to heed that warning in 1999 exacted a terrible price, one we’re still paying. If the GOP and US electorate are gullible enough to buy what Perry’s selling we’ll get what his sponsors paid for.
I’d rather rely on Social Security, social justice and a secular government
When I described what makes America great – “freedom, limited government, and self-reliance” I forgot to add “Judeo-Christian Morality.” It is what makes us do the right thing, even when no one is looking (J.C. Watts).
There is an interesting example of the extremes of adhering of secular vs. religious morality. During the Holocaust, the vast majority of the German people were either secualrist perpetrators or bystanders during the mass murder of not only Jews, but Gypsies, homosexuals and other “undesireables.” The few who selflessly risked life to rescue the would be victims were able to adhere to a higher morality, that of a God, than the secularists. The majority of the rescuers were devout Christians, and surprisingly, Muslims. The secularists, not so much.
I doubt if US voters, as mislead as they are, might be so dumb as to be fooled by the Perry folly. Fox News is good at twisting the truth, indeed, but how might they spin the fact that Texas has the largest percentage of workers earning minimum wage, and the largest percentage of workers without health insurance, and of course the food stamp thing aforementioned, surely there must be some limits to just how far the Fox nonsense can go. Even the dopes at CNN have discovered these simple truths (the CNNers did however fail to mention the Texas-sized food stamp anomoly)!
If Perry is all the Repubs have… they are in trouble. But of course if the choice is between low-paying jobs with no health-care insurance with less funding for food stamps and etc., and homelessness, or… no jobs and homelessness with food stamps and etc., well, it could be a close race. A good vote getter might be: Unrestricted Parking for the ‘mobile homeless’, (we are becoming a voting block to be reckoned with)!
You make these claims as if you took some sort of survey yourself. The simple truth is that Christians have not ceased their killing, usurping, torturing, exploiting, and etc., since they became orginized. Doesn’t it seem just a little too delusional to pluck out “secularists” from a population that is predominantly Christian as if the vast majority is innocent of any responsibility, as if millions of people could be herded out of their cities without them having been complicit. Come on, Sammy.
A secular decision was made to commence the Holocaust. Most people obeyed their government. Those who resisted and did the right thing, be they Christians, Muslims, or agnostics followed a higher morality, one that is embodied in the Christian religion, and perhaps other religions as well.
i realize it is a waste of time to point it out, but since you are going all Xtian on me today, you might want to check out what Jesus said about God and Mammon. Then you need to find out what early Christians thought about “other people’s money.”
if you wish to object that all those early Christians were “volunteers” and that is different from the state collecting taxes at the point of a gun, I’d invite you to meditate on Ananias and Sapphira.
Or, if you prefer the Old Testament, you might think about Deuteronomy 8:17-18 “Beware lest you say in your heart, ‘My power and the might of my hand have gotten me this wealth. You shall remember the Lord your God, for it is he who gives you power to get wealth…”
Of course you will rationalize this so it justifies your worship of wealth.. but Jesus predicted that too.
In public statements, especially at the beginning of his rule, Hitler frequently spoke positively about the Christian German culture, and his belief in the “Aryan” Christ. In a proclamation to the German Nation February 1, 1933 Hitler stated, “The National Government will regard it as its first and foremost duty to revive in the nation the spirit of unity and co-operation. It will preserve and defend those basic principles on which our nation has been built. It regards Christianity as the foundation of our national morality, and the family as the basis of national life.”[10]
I have never said, nor implied, that I worshipped wealth. Because I don’t. So I conclude that your admonition is just an excuse to raise taxes on others.
At best, this is just a substitute for real charity that I alluded to in an earlier comment. At worst, it is just an attempt to preserve your Social Securtiy check at the expense of others.
Sammy Here’s a suggestion for you concerning your faith in the Lord and your fellow man. Go to your church this weekend. Ask the pastor, oriest, whatever, for a chance to address the congregation. Stand before them and tell them what you have said to Dale, “At worst, it is just an attempt to preserve your Social Securtiy check at the expense of others.” Remind your fellow parishioners that those who collect Social Security do so at the expense of others and explain to them that they need to give it up for the good of those still young enough to work and that those who work need to enjoy the fruits of their labor and not have to contribute to the welfare of others who had worked all their lives. Report back to us what the response of your friends and neighbors might have been.
And regarding your use of the word secular as it may relate to the Holocaust, thank you for confirming my assessment of your ignorance.
rllove, Thanks for that citation. I was unaware of Hitler’s devotion to religion and faith. It seems he has much in common with those of the current political class who wear their Christianity on their shirt sleeves rather than keeping Christ in their hearts.
Sammy FYI, a secular government is not necessarily irreligious or, for that matter, amoral or immoral. A secular government is simply one that separates government activities of all forms from religion. Individuals within that government may participate in religious activities in their private lives, but are obliged by our Constitution to keep a wall between their religious practices and their governmental duties and activities. They are permitted to retain their personal morality in the conduct of their governmental activities. That may be related to, but is not required by, religious convictions.
i paid for my social security check, as does everyone else who gets one. even you will have paid for your social security check when you retire, or become disabled, or die leaving dependents. it’s insurance, not welfare. it’s because you are so totally ignorant that you can believe the nonsense you believe.
“real charity” does not work in a nation of 300 million strangers, where most of the people who know each other get poor at the same time because they are all victims of economic forces beyond their control. social security was carefully designed not to be welfare, because it is well known that nobody wants to receive welfare, and none of the people you know want to pay for welfare, even if that was the most efficient way to provide “charity.”
your entire contribution to this “debate” is to convince me that humans are to stupid to help.
“Christianity” was taken over by the anti-Christ while John the apostle was still alive. This does not mean that all people who call themselves Christian are working against the teachings of Christ, but certainly some are, and …. well, Jesus predicted that too: “For false Christs and false prophets will arise… so as to lead astray…even the elect.”
I have no idea… other than my own intuition… whether the story of Jesus is “true,” but it is certain that many of those who claim to be Christian have either never read it, never understood it, or deliberately pervert it.
And no, I tell you which is which… it seems that we are supposed to work that out for ourselves.
As noted earlier, a true Christian has Christ in their heart, not on their shirt sleeve. And that is true of any other person of any religious faith. If god is only a talking point in one’s life then god is not truly in that life. God is faith in the quality of life for all of god’s creations. God is not a frame work of rules and regulations which dictate a life style or manner of living. Perry’s prayer service had iconic leaders praying for their own good and their own salvation. Any reference to the family of man was for popular consumption only.
well, sammy won’t be back for this thread, which is a shame because i wanted to ask him how much of his self esteem he gets from forcing me to pay for his idea of Defense.
or for that matter, police protection. i am kind of frightened by the idea that i can be dragged off to jail while my children are left alone because i failed to reply adequately to an Order to report for jury duty.
A late update from IA brings news of the triumph of Michelle Bachmann. She’s smart, she’s classy she appeals to the midwestern social issues voters who aren’t all about the icky stuff.
ilsm Sorry to display my ignorance, but I don’t see, or understand(?), the connection between Calvinism and evangelicalism. Please explain as we seem headed for a Republican nominee with strong evangelical connections and support. Both Bachmann and Perry are shirt sleevers in a long tradition of religious political campaigners. Has Elmer Gantry risen again?
In my observation: neither calvinism or evangelicals have a thing to do with christianity or civil society.
Calvinism, is an approach to defining the Hindu caste system: predestiny a few select chosen by god defines the rich, as the chosen (comes out of divine right of kings and into divine right of libertarian hoarding).
In this view it is right and ecclessiastical for the poor to be poor and ignored. Nothing from the Savior in this.
It existed in England and Europe from the 16th century, explains Dickens’ observations.
Bachmann or at least a preacher she has listened to thinks slavery was just fine and the “spawn of Cain” are relegated to be abused either by the master or by the KKK. That guy said they would be better off……..
It gets you morally to justify Honduras today or North Carolina in the 1830’s.
Got to keep entitlements from raising those non chosen. It is envy against the god given right of hoarding and ACA is ungodly getting in the way of the chosen plundering the non chosen weak, poor and aged.
Actually to take the railroads, they nearly went broke in the 1970s due to having so many of them competing. At that time due to the ICC it was nearly impossible to get a merger approved. The rules changed and now we have basically 6 big rail systems in the US, The BNSF, UP, NS, C&O , KCS, Candian National, as well as a lot of short lines that were divested in the mergers. In addition a lot of tracks were pulled up where they were running 1 or 2 trains a week. So in fact the railroads were the opposite of a government encouraged oligopolie until perhaps recently. (If you look at RR behavior in the Era of Free Capitalism the 1880-1890 they competed them selves into bankruptcy, as the airlines have done recently) On parallel tracks, drive I-25 north of Pubelo Co and you can see two tracks about 100 yards from each other. (BNSF and UP now). A lot of utilities are locally created monopolies because the city wants to get paid for the use of right of ways.
Just for grins IMHO the worst thing that ever happened to Christianity was the bargin with the devil it made when Constantine made it the religion of the empire.
“Nobody knows how long it takes. And it doesn’t matter.”
I don’t accept that at face value.
If debt overhand is the issue, then a push for increasing the inflation target may be much more useful (in solving the root problem) than a push for government spending.
In my personal experience, I have seen that one response to the depressed economy is that we are reducing the number of teachers we employ in our grade schools. The stimulus allowed us to hold it off, but did not prevent it. Locally, we are using reserves to reduce the rate at which we must cut back. If we do not have an estimate of how long it takes to recover, we do not have a basis to decide how much of our reserves to use in each year. Future students will receive lower quality service at no fault of their own.
I would be all for taxing people who actually have the money and transferring it to the states (or school districts if state funding is not the issue). Whether it is debt or not, it is spending. It is a waste not to use our excess capability in teaching. But the school district still needs to esitmate when it will no longer need stimulus or reserves.
No……you paid a small protion of your check. The majority of the money you recieve will be a transfer of wealth from the generation behind you…….unless of course….you die very young.
You just got down preaching “Jesus” and then you roll out the hypocracy?
Bush was running a FY2009 federal budget deficit of $569 billion by January 31, 2009.
The FY2009 fiscal year budget began in October 2008. Bush left office at the beginning of 2009. He was partially responsbile for the FY2009 end of fiscal year deficit.
The deficit running total would have included all revenues and outlays per month. Changes in TARP would have been included.
Some time ago Krugman calculated the required stimulus http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/01/06/stimulus-arithmetic-wonkish-but-important/ at $300B per 1 percent decrease in unemployment. Thus we need $1.2B in stimulus – annually.
Dean Baker gives us http://www.cepr.net/index.php/beat-the-press/it-was-the-housing-bubble-not-the-damn-cdos/ a $1T number based on lost wealth effect and lost contruction spending. Close enough for engineering a package.
Neither of these tells us how long we need to apply the stimulus. Baker indicates (in the linked post) that there is $6T in lost wealth. If we need to wait until the wealth is going to be recovered until consumers can hold up their side of spending so the government does not need to, it will be years. 15T at 5 percent savings rate => 8 years.
An average of $500B over 8 years is a lot of stimulus. It is quite a bump in debt.
How wrong am I?
All Men are Created Equal.
Expire the Bush reverse Robin Hood tax cuts.
End Wall St acting like Robin Hood.
Sell off the MBS’ in treasury and the Fed. Liquidate the big banks and settle their accounts in bankruptcy.
Force the Fed to divest the banksters.
Tax the wall st gangsters.
M3 got up to $63T (had to stop accounting for it) excise tax some of that.
Cut $400B a year from the war profiteers.
A tariff or two.
Arne –
Aside from real wars and Reagan’s star wars, spending has never been the cause of big deficits. As Karl Smith put it: “However, I want to make the more general point that spending is pretty much never the cause of budget deficits. Or, to be a bit more formal, variations in spending do not predict variations in the deficit. Variations in tax revenue, however, do predict variations in the deficit.”
http://modeledbehavior.com/2011/03/06/taxes-cuts-drive-deficits/#comment-11115
We were in a huge debt sitaution after WWII – Debt/GDP was 120% The slowly decreased over 35 years to something in the low 30% range – not because we paid down debt, but because we grew GDP.
Ww are in a debt situation now because of tax cuts and nfened war efforts. Get rid of those things and we can affort all sorts of stimulus.
Cheers!
JzB
2011 or 1934????
I really was thinking more about unemployment than about debt. How does your list increase employment?
I intended a focus on employment. The whole concept of stimulus is that you can improve employment if you are willing to accept debt. If $1.2T would guarantee to move us to a sustainable 5 percent unemployment in a single year …
My question is how long does it really take. You clearly need less stimulus the second year and less yet the third, but (absent a new bubble) how long does it take for consumers to want to spend at the same rate. Is consumer debt overhang enough of an issue to have a strong impact? Is calculating it in actually meaningful?
Well the Obama care appeal is over, and the ruling is:
11th Circuit rules Obamacare mandate unconstitutional
From here: http://hotair.com/archives/2011/08/12/breaking-11th-circuit-rules-obamacare-mandate-unconstitutional/
Jazz,
I disagree!
The basleine spending is increaseing at 8%. The supposed lost revenue is $6.2 Trillion from 2002 thru 2011. The problem here is that the projection is based on an economy that benefited from the tax cut, so is that number accurate?
Assuming the projection is accurate, that leaves a supposed loss of $620 Billion a year. We are running a $1.5 Trillion deficit now, and projected to be over a $1 Trillion as far as the eye can see. This exposes a spending problem not a revenue problem. The War spending during the same Period is only one years worth of Deficit Spending….even though I would like to quit spending money in the Middle East…it is clear that it also is not a main source of the problem in our deficit spending.
Under Bush the deficit was decreaseing when he left, and was manageable based on growth. The origin of the famous comment from Cheney, “Deficits don’t matter.” Besides if we were to eliminate the Obama Tax Cuts now, and we assumed a growth economy as good a Bush’s, then we only get $80 Billion/year from the upper Bracket. So the majority of the money would come from the middle and lower class….and I thought that was off limits to the Left?
Just like in your own comment the solution is growth.
http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/121xx/doc12187/ChangesBaselineProjections.pdf
Corev,
Now we get Sotomayor to rule on this after she had a hand in it’s implementation…..What a Joke! The hypocracy of the Left never ceases to amaze me!
Darren –
The problem here is that the projection is based on an economy that benefited from the tax cut,
If you read Mike Kimel’s many posts on taxs and growth you wil see that this premise is incorrect.
This exposes a spending problem not a revenue problem.
This is simply a right wing lie. You can check the data yourself.
Expenditures: NIPA table 3.9.5, lines 12, 17, and 22
Or you can have a look at my graphs.
http://jazzbumpa.blogspot.com/2011/01/government-spending-and-great.html
http://jazzbumpa.blogspot.com/2011/03/federal-budget-and-great-stagnation.html
CoRev explicitley refuses to expose himself to the facts and data I present. Hopefully, you are a bit more open to reality.
Cheers!
JzB
Has the past 33 months seen an increase in employment?
Cut the war machine.
A tariff or two hundred and lowered deficts mean less demand filled by India and China.
US needs to balance its trade to get employment up.
May be a bit xenophobic, but the Chinese have pegged on the US$ and we tried that, borrowing like crazies freshly printed money on inflated houses did not work.
Maybe the tea party will try nullification to keep their multi national masters happy.
By the way – spending is up bcause the economy is down — it’s going to unemplyment and other progrms that kick in during hard times. The myth that Obama is a big spender is a pernicious lie.
The deficit is horrible because reciepts are down – now only 14 or 15% of depressed GDP. Debt/GDP is taking a hit in the numerator and the denominator.
The solution is growth, as we saw during the golden age after WW II.
JzB
CoRev/Darrin,
I leave you two to the founding fathers’ north carolina brand.
The calvinists know that big insurance and big pharma are the select of god and must do their duty to him and plunder the unhealthy who by definition are spawn of Cain.
There is the “Commerce Clause”, let’s see how it is interpretted by the SCOTUS.
Let’s wait to see the deliberations in that 9 member panel.
I am waiting for a repeal of emancipation because that is against calvinism as taught by the founding fathers in north carolina, and other true “under god” states.
Back to the founding fathers!
JzB thinks a 13.4% increase in non-defense discretionary spending from 2008 thru 2010 is: “This exposes a spending problem not a revenue problem.
This is simply a right wing lie.”
The kind of nuanced spending, especially when we have been talking about uncontrolled entitlements, does not change the issue of spending.
Jazz:
Yes
CoRev:
No, they did not strike down the entre ACA. The objected (in a split ruling) to the mandate of everyone must have insurance. States still ve to expand Medicaid. 6th District ruled in favor of healthcare.
The gov could ask the entire panel of 11th district coa to rule also. This is fare from over.
http://www.scotusblog.com/2011/08/health-insurance-mandate-struck-down/
These are dark days for Liberals, er Progressives, worldwide.
First, redistributionist governments are proverbially running out of Other Peoples Money. Conservatives predicted this.
Second, the events in the UK, are showing the degeneration of societies under the welfare state. Conservatives predicted this also.
And lastly, your getaway car – Global Warming!, er Climate Change! has turned out to be a huge lemon, with a transmission that will only shift out of “Park” into “Reverse.” Conservatives predicted this also.
So your only options are
1) Denial, or
2) Claiming your leader, Obama, is incompetent.
Dark days indeed.
CoRev
you may be talking about uncontrolled entitlements, but i prefer to talk about Social Security which pays for itself and has nothing to do with the deficit, and Medicare which used to be that way, and should be put back that way.
Darren
as it happens i don’t like the individual mandate and i hope the Court finds it unconstitutional. i don’t think they will because the justices are pretty good at making their reasons fit their politics, and the Health Care Industry is all for the Mandate.
Nor would I dispute that the left has a sufficiency of hypocrites to make a viable political party. probably about as many as the right. but for the last thirty years or so… sixty if you count the McCarthy era… the left has been saner than the right … and that’s worth a little hypocrisy.
but somehow i think you wouldn’t need any evidence at all to conclude that whatever the left does it is being hypocritical.
Sammy, don’t forget the progressive/liberal environmental and energy policies which have slowed so much of our development. Conservatives have predicted this also.
Sometimes when reading Sammy’s posts I think I’m reading “The Onion.”
Running out of other people’s money. Wow! Great Britain and the U.S are leaders in wealth and income inequality. Over the past 4 decades, redistribution has been from the poor to the rich, and most especially skewed toward the very richest.
Meanwhile, which countries have been among the least affected by the global financial crisis? Those socialist hell-holes Norway, Sweden, and Denmark.
I especially love this:
And lastly, your getaway car – Global Warming!, er Climate Change! has turned out to be a huge lemon,
The two warmest years on record: 2005 and 2010. Any takers that 2011 isn’t hotter still? Either way, the annual global mean temperature has been above the 20th century average for 34 consecutive years. 2010 was also the wettest year on record. Some humid coincidence.
http://www.npr.org/2011/01/12/132865502/last-year-was-the-warmest-year-on-record-again
Thanks, Sammy. Best laugh I’ve had all day.
By the way, you are offering a false choice. I do deny all of your bovine excrement, and also claim Obama is not exactly incompetent, but far, far too conservative, which is almost but not quite the same thing.
Cheers!
JzB
JzB,
I guess we can put you in the “Denial” camp.
Sammy/corev,
Your faith is evident, no facts involved.
I recognize you both insist that the poor, aged and infirm, whom the progressive/liberal, environmental and energy tree huggers love, are the “spawn of Cain”. They deserve the suffering of the entire world.
The Euro/US world is/did not bail the poor, they are bailing the rich banksters by robbing the poor and labor.
The Celtic Tiger was running large surpluses when their housing bubble burst and they entered recession, the calvinist German bankers’ loans got into trouble. The Irish gumint robbed the potato farmers for the Germans.
The German bankers are good calvinists predestined to be bailed out! On the back of the “spawn of Cain”.
Then there is Spain, I know a little part of the coast of that country where Brits and other Northern Europeans, the select of calvin, borrowed huge sums on Spanish banks financed by the Germans’ Euros, and when the bubble burst the Spanish banks held the bag and the Spanish poor bailed the Germans out.
This entire depression is a balance sheet depression the Euro/US zone followed the bubbles Bush/Greenspan inflated.
When they went bust they pulled a reverse Robin Hood.
Very calvinistic!
This week those economy ruiners at Freddie magnanimously “bought” $500M of toilet paper called MBS from BoA.
Fred/Fanny should be shut down, so no one can buy any real estate and BoA goes to the liquidation process.
The US wasted $2.4T in accumulated excess payroll tax receipts on war profits and tax cuts for calvin’s select and $750B for MBS from wall st.
Now the war profiteers and banksters don’t want to give any up so the aged get cat food.
Very calvinist.
Historical note, “spawn of Cain” is from a document justifying slave holding in 17th century British colonies in North America.
I find it strange that the same people championing the 50s and 60s also advocate large reductions in military spending. The 50s and 60s were periods when the U.S. governments spent heavily on defense.
Dan
Unless they are regarded as comic relief I submit to you that sammy and corev are a stain on this blog site. Strange ideas coupled with falsifications and multiplied by inane conservative, make tha Tea Bagger, talking points. It’s like having Michelle Bachmann and Herman Cain on board to argue the finer points of government and economic development. No, our trolls do not even reach the level of Mitt Romney. That they both harp continuously on the poor and unemployed as though one chooses those lots in life is a sad commentary on their own disregard for what ever good fortune they have both enjoyed in their own lives. Theirs are not conservative values. They are selfish and, to a lesser extent current Republican values.
At best I consider sammy corev and MG to be the Angry Bear variation on Colbert. Discredited conservative fairy tales mangled into parody of itself.
Kevin,
What is different.
There are no Viet Cong, nor a Red Army with 40000 tanks, nor a Red Bomber Command……….
The US now is the sole plunderer of its people for the war profiteers.
You cannot defend propping Karzai or Malik by pillaging the US economy.
Today’s NYT brings us the latest in austerity innovation from Central Falls RI where managers are exploring ways to keep bondholders whole while stiffing retired policemen, firefighters and other workers. But fear not, the city promises not to let pensions drop below $10K/yearly.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/13/us/13bankruptcy.html?_r=2&hp
And of course the city saw fit to exempt their employees from social security to save the taxes so they are doubly screwed. But at least they don’t have to worry about their SS benefits getting whacked, as Dr. Black observed.
Sorry Darren didn’t mean to leave our newest wingnut out. You’re kinda funny too.
A Pix…………………………O rtwo
Got the point.
So how do we categorize those workers who are now facing hard times in their senior years? Are they welfare recipients expecting a hand out? Are they the “spawn of Cain”? Or, are they rubes having been swindled by the past? I didn’t notice any discussion in that article about cutting the pay of elec ted officials who are deciding to cut the earned pensions of their former employees. Isn’t is peculiar how in our country unearned income is always more favorably regarded than earned income? Too bad that the article doesn’t go into more detail about the portion of the pensions funds, or what is left of the funds, was worker contributions. Has a worker who put aside his own current income, in order to fund his retirement, no standing in court? Were those funds not required to be in some form of a sequestered account?
Maybe if enough middle class workers, which is what it sounds like in the articel referenced by AS, begin to face this sort of legal embezzelmant of their own savings there will be an appropriate back lash against those politicians who regard workers as undeserving of financial protection.
I suggest you take another look at the data.
At the end of the Bush administration the deficit almost reached 10% of GDP.
Remember, the economy was already in deep, deep recession before he left.
Tell MOI again why the AB posts are a day later reaching my in-box?
Money quote: “For the first time the letter pegs the cost of bringing AT&T’s LTE coverage from 80% to 97% at $3.8 billion — quite a cost difference from the $39 billion price tag on the T-Mobile deal. “
Explain to me again how corporations are smarter and more efficient than evil government bureaucrats. Type very slowly.
None dare call it judicial activism!
AS,
AT&T also gets Tmobile subscribers. That’s where the value is.
Sure – way better for them to drop $40B buying out a major competitor than bothering with actually competing on service and or price. Nothing corrupt or dishonest about that no sir.
At TBP: http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2011/08/the-beginning-of-the-endgame/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+TheBigPicture+%28The+Big+Picture%29
“In Greece it is 70,000.’ To get around pay restraints in the calendar year the Greek government simply paid employees a 13th and even 14th monthly salary—months that didn’t exist.”
The pentagon and cronies are trillions ahead of the Greek government.
In the US congress they see need for the F-35 which cannot be kept in the air, and plan to spend up to $15T so that the Air Force can have the fiction of air superiority over some unimportant territory run by thugs, or against a new generation of SUKHOI that have no engines.
The fiction for justifying 12 100,000 Ton nuclear carriers to fight the Imperial Japanese carriers again.
I could go on about $700B of spending, using borrowed money for war profiteers fictions.
It is easier to steal from the poor than expose the greed and fiction of the war machine.
A CNN report on Evangelical did not include the word “christian”. The Evangelicals are not into Christ.
They are not connected to the New Testament.
Just what Calvin said……………..
Maybe the Old Testament.
Norman
check your calendar.
Jack,
No Jews or Muslims need apply.
Neither were there any among the 2008 Democratic presidential candidates http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Party_(United_States)_presidential_candidates,_2008 (unless you count Obama as a Muslim).
In fact I don’t think there were any Catholics either.
OK, so Bill Richardson (D) was a Catholic. I’ll see your Catholic and call you with a Mormon. For the record, since your side likes to keep track of these things, there are also a woman and a black Republican candidate.
Besides ALL of them, have a superior resume of accomplishment than your President, including Herman Cain http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herman_Cain
So the good old race card doesn’t apply here. The truth is, people of all stripes can see the failures of Liberalism, and so are attracted to it’s opposite – Conservatism
Sammy, ever since your comment a week or so ago re: is it liberal beliefs or Obama causing the angst, I have reviewed the many comments here and else where from that criteria. As time goes on your assertions appears to be true.
Furthermore, we have more persistent calls from the liberal wing to close down comments with alternative views. How many times have we seen it here? I also see it on the AGW believer blogs where the realization of their AGW beliefs being wrong is also expanding. The difference between the two groups is there is no Obama to blame for the AGW crowd.
I guess its just another type self preservation denial. Few are strong enough to admit a life time of beliefs are wrong.
Not to mention the way the battle for jobs in the post merger AT&T&T will provide a little extra leverage against the CWA at contract time. This is the kind of twofer that will get CEO Randall Stephenson a few extra million at bonus time.
Good thing he doesn’t need to worry about customers who can actually pay cell phone and broadband bills. Oh wait.
I freely admit it CoRev. Your ignorance is industrial strength.
Co Rev,
I guess its just another type self preservation denial. Few are strong enough to admit a life time of beliefs are wrong.
It’s more than that. A great deal Liberals’ self estemm comes from their belief that advocating spending Other Peoples Money and expanding government makes them A Good Person. Without access to OPM, they will actually have to DO SOMETHING to get the psychological benefits and accolades that come from benificence. Contributing to charity or volunteering is a lot more work. However, criticizing conservatives’ spending cuts may serve the same purpose.
If we get this thing turned around and get America back to what made it great – limited government, freedom, and self-reliance (a big “if”), then another critical foundation of the Liberal psyche – that Liberals-are-so-much-smarter,-more-enlightened-and-more-well-intentioned-than-the-rest-of us-plebes, and therefore-can-tell-everyone-what-to-do, will be crushed.
So this Obama meltdown is a very serious threat to them, on a personal level.
Amateur Socialist,
In some industries, those with large, proprietary capital investment, consolidation is the most-efficient outcome. For example it doesn’t make sense for two different railroads to build paralell tracks, nor is it economic for AT&T to build redundant cell stations to Tmobile.
In fact government supports this. They created the AT&T, Post Office, and local utility monopolies, as well as many other oligopolies like the railroads, airlines, and cable TV. In fact, patents are enforced monopolies.
Well at least Lord Stephenson will still insist on maximizing competition when it comes to paying the workers that create his fat bonus and salary. Hooray competition!
“Neither were there any among the 2008 Democratic presidential candidates” sammy
Nice try Sammy, but I wasn’t referring to candidates running for office. I was referring to attendees at Perry’s National Day of Prayer. Apparently Rick prefers salvation by his god for those who may need our help on Earth. I’d rather rely on Social Security, social justice and a secular government whose elected officials know the Constitution as well as they think they know the Bible.
The late Molly Ivins tried to warn the country against hiring TX governors as president once. The failure to heed that warning in 1999 exacted a terrible price, one we’re still paying. If the GOP and US electorate are gullible enough to buy what Perry’s selling we’ll get what his sponsors paid for.
Jack,
I’d rather rely on Social Security, social justice and a secular government
When I described what makes America great – “freedom, limited government, and self-reliance” I forgot to add “Judeo-Christian Morality.” It is what makes us do the right thing, even when no one is looking (J.C. Watts).
There is an interesting example of the extremes of adhering of secular vs. religious morality. During the Holocaust, the vast majority of the German people were either secualrist perpetrators or bystanders during the mass murder of not only Jews, but Gypsies, homosexuals and other “undesireables.” The few who selflessly risked life to rescue the would be victims were able to adhere to a higher morality, that of a God, than the secularists. The majority of the rescuers were devout Christians, and surprisingly, Muslims. The secularists, not so much.
amateur,
I doubt if US voters, as mislead as they are, might be so dumb as to be fooled by the Perry folly. Fox News is good at twisting the truth, indeed, but how might they spin the fact that Texas has the largest percentage of workers earning minimum wage, and the largest percentage of workers without health insurance, and of course the food stamp thing aforementioned, surely there must be some limits to just how far the Fox nonsense can go. Even the dopes at CNN have discovered these simple truths (the CNNers did however fail to mention the Texas-sized food stamp anomoly)!
If Perry is all the Repubs have… they are in trouble. But of course if the choice is between low-paying jobs with no health-care insurance with less funding for food stamps and etc., and homelessness, or… no jobs and homelessness with food stamps and etc., well, it could be a close race. A good vote getter might be: Unrestricted Parking for the ‘mobile homeless’, (we are becoming a voting block to be reckoned with)!
ray
Sammy,
You make these claims as if you took some sort of survey yourself. The simple truth is that Christians have not ceased their killing, usurping, torturing, exploiting, and etc., since they became orginized. Doesn’t it seem just a little too delusional to pluck out “secularists” from a population that is predominantly Christian as if the vast majority is innocent of any responsibility, as if millions of people could be herded out of their cities without them having been complicit. Come on, Sammy.
Ray,
A secular decision was made to commence the Holocaust. Most people obeyed their government. Those who resisted and did the right thing, be they Christians, Muslims, or agnostics followed a higher morality, one that is embodied in the Christian religion, and perhaps other religions as well.
sammy
i realize it is a waste of time to point it out, but since you are going all Xtian on me today, you might want to check out what Jesus said about God and Mammon. Then you need to find out what early Christians thought about “other people’s money.”
if you wish to object that all those early Christians were “volunteers” and that is different from the state collecting taxes at the point of a gun, I’d invite you to meditate on Ananias and Sapphira.
Or, if you prefer the Old Testament, you might think about Deuteronomy 8:17-18 “Beware lest you say in your heart, ‘My power and the might of my hand have gotten me this wealth. You shall remember the Lord your God, for it is he who gives you power to get wealth…”
Of course you will rationalize this so it justifies your worship of wealth.. but Jesus predicted that too.
In public statements, especially at the beginning of his rule, Hitler frequently spoke positively about the Christian German culture, and his belief in the “Aryan” Christ. In a proclamation to the German Nation February 1, 1933 Hitler stated, “The National Government will regard it as its first and foremost duty to revive in the nation the spirit of unity and co-operation. It will preserve and defend those basic principles on which our nation has been built. It regards Christianity as the foundation of our national morality, and the family as the basis of national life.”[10]
Jack,
As far as I can tell, I have used “secular” exactly as it is defined. It is you that that have perverted the definition as an excuse to rant.
I was going to say that the stress of your ideology collapsing has caused you to become unhinged, but then I realized that you are always like this.
coberly,
your worship of wealth
I have never said, nor implied, that I worshipped wealth. Because I don’t. So I conclude that your admonition is just an excuse to raise taxes on others.
At best, this is just a substitute for real charity that I alluded to in an earlier comment. At worst, it is just an attempt to preserve your Social Securtiy check at the expense of others.
Sammy,
The Truth, Way, Light…………………
Those are some things the Carpenter said.
There is nothing christian about “doing the right thing when no one is looking”.
There is nothing christian about calvinism, or most of what the ownersgip society has done here.
There is nothing economic about your positions nor are they founded on fact.
You are not “doing the right thing where Iam looking”.
Amen
In my family we had a war sovereir from my Uncle who fought in North Africa and Italy.
It was a belt buckle with the phrase Godt Mit Uns in a wreath surrounding a Swastika.
Fascism has come wrapped in a flag clutching a golden cross.
Sammy
Here’s a suggestion for you concerning your faith in the Lord and your fellow man. Go to your church this weekend. Ask the pastor, oriest, whatever, for a chance to address the congregation. Stand before them and tell them what you have said to Dale, “At worst, it is just an attempt to preserve your Social Securtiy check at the expense of others.” Remind your fellow parishioners that those who collect Social Security do so at the expense of others and explain to them that they need to give it up for the good of those still young enough to work and that those who work need to enjoy the fruits of their labor and not have to contribute to the welfare of others who had worked all their lives. Report back to us what the response of your friends and neighbors might have been.
And regarding your use of the word secular as it may relate to the Holocaust, thank you for confirming my assessment of your ignorance.
rllove,
Thanks for that citation. I was unaware of Hitler’s devotion to religion and faith. It seems he has much in common with those of the current political class who wear their Christianity on their shirt sleeves rather than keeping Christ in their hearts.
Sammy
FYI, a secular government is not necessarily irreligious or, for that matter, amoral or immoral. A secular government is simply one that separates government activities of all forms from religion. Individuals within that government may participate in religious activities in their private lives, but are obliged by our Constitution to keep a wall between their religious practices and their governmental duties and activities. They are permitted to retain their personal morality in the conduct of their governmental activities. That may be related to, but is not required by, religious convictions.
sammy,
“Knowing others is intelligence; knowing yourself is true wisdom.”
Meditate.
BTW where does that come from? It was not Sun Tzu; although his prescription for victory included knowing yourself.
I will tell you next time I reply to you.
sammy
i paid for my social security check, as does everyone else who gets one. even you will have paid for your social security check when you retire, or become disabled, or die leaving dependents. it’s insurance, not welfare. it’s because you are so totally ignorant that you can believe the nonsense you believe.
“real charity” does not work in a nation of 300 million strangers, where most of the people who know each other get poor at the same time because they are all victims of economic forces beyond their control. social security was carefully designed not to be welfare, because it is well known that nobody wants to receive welfare, and none of the people you know want to pay for welfare, even if that was the most efficient way to provide “charity.”
your entire contribution to this “debate” is to convince me that humans are to stupid to help.
Jack
“Christianity” was taken over by the anti-Christ while John the apostle was still alive. This does not mean that all people who call themselves Christian are working against the teachings of Christ, but certainly some are, and …. well, Jesus predicted that too: “For false Christs and false prophets will arise… so as to lead astray…even the elect.”
I have no idea… other than my own intuition… whether the story of Jesus is “true,” but it is certain that many of those who claim to be Christian have either never read it, never understood it, or deliberately pervert it.
And no, I tell you which is which… it seems that we are supposed to work that out for ourselves.
As noted earlier, a true Christian has Christ in their heart, not on their shirt sleeve. And that is true of any other person of any religious faith. If god is only a talking point in one’s life then god is not truly in that life. God is faith in the quality of life for all of god’s creations. God is not a frame work of rules and regulations which dictate a life style or manner of living. Perry’s prayer service had iconic leaders praying for their own good and their own salvation. Any reference to the family of man was for popular consumption only.
well, sammy won’t be back for this thread, which is a shame because i wanted to ask him how much of his self esteem he gets from forcing me to pay for his idea of Defense.
or for that matter, police protection. i am kind of frightened by the idea that i can be dragged off to jail while my children are left alone because i failed to reply adequately to an Order to report for jury duty.
A late update from IA brings news of the triumph of Michelle Bachmann. She’s smart, she’s classy she appeals to the midwestern social issues voters who aren’t all about the icky stuff.
Bachmann 2012!!! She’s going all the way!
They’re starting to drop put. 1st is Pawleenty.
Everything ecclesiastical before the Carpenter was to be destroyed.
He tore down the temple.
Today, it is rebuilt.
Only thing I take from all I have read and learned in many years is stated by the gretest preachers of our age:
John Lennon: “All you need is love”.
There ain’t much in the evangelicals, or calvinists of this country.
5000 year old law from the Yoga: “Do no harm”.
Most everything else is herding the human soul.
Calvinism wins in Iowa………………….
ilsm
Sorry to display my ignorance, but I don’t see, or understand(?), the connection between Calvinism and evangelicalism. Please explain as we seem headed for a Republican nominee with strong evangelical connections and support. Both Bachmann and Perry are shirt sleevers in a long tradition of religious political campaigners. Has Elmer Gantry risen again?
In my observation: neither calvinism or evangelicals have a thing to do with christianity or civil society.
Calvinism, is an approach to defining the Hindu caste system: predestiny a few select chosen by god defines the rich, as the chosen (comes out of divine right of kings and into divine right of libertarian hoarding).
In this view it is right and ecclessiastical for the poor to be poor and ignored. Nothing from the Savior in this.
It existed in England and Europe from the 16th century, explains Dickens’ observations.
Bachmann or at least a preacher she has listened to thinks slavery was just fine and the “spawn of Cain” are relegated to be abused either by the master or by the KKK. That guy said they would be better off……..
It gets you morally to justify Honduras today or North Carolina in the 1830’s.
Got to keep entitlements from raising those non chosen. It is envy against the god given right of hoarding and ACA is ungodly getting in the way of the chosen plundering the non chosen weak, poor and aged.
Yes, there are Gantry’s out there.
The Romans ran out of lions.
Actually to take the railroads, they nearly went broke in the 1970s due to having so many of them competing. At that time due to the ICC it was nearly impossible to get a merger approved. The rules changed and now we have basically 6 big rail systems in the US, The BNSF, UP, NS, C&O , KCS, Candian National, as well as a lot of short lines that were divested in the mergers. In addition a lot of tracks were pulled up where they were running 1 or 2 trains a week. So in fact the railroads were the opposite of a government encouraged oligopolie until perhaps recently. (If you look at RR behavior in the Era of Free Capitalism the 1880-1890 they competed them selves into bankruptcy, as the airlines have done recently) On parallel tracks, drive I-25 north of Pubelo Co and you can see two tracks about 100 yards from each other. (BNSF and UP now). A lot of utilities are locally created monopolies because the city wants to get paid for the use of right of ways.
Just for grins IMHO the worst thing that ever happened to Christianity was the bargin with the devil it made when Constantine made it the religion of the empire.
sammy
everything you say tells us that you worship wealth, whether you tell yourself that or not.
Spencer,
If you want to put 2009 on to Bush…go ahead, but it makes your arguement less crediable if you do so.
“Nobody knows how long it takes. And it doesn’t matter.”
I don’t accept that at face value.
If debt overhand is the issue, then a push for increasing the inflation target may be much more useful (in solving the root problem) than a push for government spending.
In my personal experience, I have seen that one response to the depressed economy is that we are reducing the number of teachers we employ in our grade schools. The stimulus allowed us to hold it off, but did not prevent it. Locally, we are using reserves to reduce the rate at which we must cut back. If we do not have an estimate of how long it takes to recover, we do not have a basis to decide how much of our reserves to use in each year. Future students will receive lower quality service at no fault of their own.
I would be all for taxing people who actually have the money and transferring it to the states (or school districts if state funding is not the issue). Whether it is debt or not, it is spending. It is a waste not to use our excess capability in teaching. But the school district still needs to esitmate when it will no longer need stimulus or reserves.
Darren,
If spencer was only trying to compare the Jan 31, 2009 level of debt held by the public to GDP, then the story is quite different.
Federal debt held by the public as a percentage of GDP was 4.5%.
MG,
First of all there is two questioned:
How does TARP get recorded into these numbers, and what about the money that was paid back?
also,
Spencer refered to the deficit.
Deficit(2008) $423 Billion
Deficit(2009) $1.29 Trillion
If Bush’s budget was modified and added on to by the Democratic Super Majorities….then how exactly is that gonna be attributed to Bush?
Coberly,
“i paid for my social security check”
No……you paid a small protion of your check. The majority of the money you recieve will be a transfer of wealth from the generation behind you…….unless of course….you die very young.
You just got down preaching “Jesus” and then you roll out the hypocracy?
Jack,
“explain to them that they need to give it up for the good of those still young enough”
It is the same thing I have seen advocated here many times by you and others. You all call for it to be Means Tested…….the same thing!
Darren,
Bush was running a FY2009 federal budget deficit of $569 billion by January 31, 2009.
The FY2009 fiscal year budget began in October 2008. Bush left office at the beginning of 2009. He was partially responsbile for the FY2009 end of fiscal year deficit.
The deficit running total would have included all revenues and outlays per month. Changes in TARP would have been included.