Notice on commenting
Comments have gotten heated and way off base (not a political statement 🙂 if the goal is adding knowledge and a thorough critique of ideas that are presented. I will be taking a more active role in moderation. I think we had crossed a boundary somewhere along the line.
The Brown-Johnston back and forth seemed a good choice because it involved multiple points to address and demanded the reader actually read an entire post and replies. Too often we stop at one point we question or occur to us that is missing, reply, and leave it at that, only to find it was dealt with later in the posting or comments.
(There are a number here that stop conservation completely unless giving each other the finger is debate)
In addition, such as today authors will be coming by to comment such as David Cay Johnston is doing today and later this evening Ian Fletcher should, so there is incentive to behave as if we have guests in the house.
Usually when I end my comment with the “Finger”….That typically means “I Won,” but sometimes I offer the “Finger” as sound advice!
I guess this is somewhat directed at me, since I had quite a few comments on the David Cay post. I felt I was trying to discuss the substance of David’s post, which I did read. I did not read the comments, nor did I read the Brown post when I posted my comment.
I apologize if my posts seemed counterproductive, and yes I know I said things that many here will take issue with. I really had a few points i was trying to make, one was countered well regarding funding. The point on voter perception became heated, though i felt i tried to point to specific examples of where these perceptions are originating. Any discussion of union political contributions is always dynamite.
Feel free to use my recent posts as an example of where commenting is going wrong. I honestly thought i was trying to discuss aspects of this whole government union debate, which is not going away for some time. If people would prefer I just go away, the. I guess let me know, and I will – despite being a reader since this blog was mentioned on Forbes for being a top Econ blog.
Last note, kind of annoying when I am called some sheeple that hates taxes, and am just duped by some conservative message. Yes, I mistrust our government, especially after the 8 bush years, and what I have seen in Baltimore. I am quite independent politically. I also moved to Baltimore to help the city, and knowing the taxes here are way, way higher than the surrounding counties I chose to pay more. I made that choice to help a dying city, but I also expect our city leaders not to take that for granted.
McWop, I think Dan was using that thread as a positive example. His reference was mostly to earlier articles. Don’t take it to heart. Most of your comments are reasonable, even it too often wrong. ;-))
Rdan. We should clone you. Send your doppelgangers to the UN, and there would be no more war.
Mcwop…no, it is not directed at you, and I hope you read this note. Johnston was a bit touchy for some reason, but the interchange between he and Brown caught my attention as useful. I was hoping for a discussion of similar thoroughness. He presents a compelling narrative for me, and is thorough in responses on that thread…
I also haven’t checked comments since early in the thread.
Mc wop
when i looked at the comment thread last night after reading Dan’s post here I did not see anything that looked out of line… not even mine.
I disagreed with you but not violently. Merely, as I remember, tried to urge you to consider further whether you were being misled by a very pervasive propaganda machine.
I don’t care for “polite” argument, because it is usually not sincere and wastes time. On the other hand I don’t care for obfuscation or second grade taunts. I think somewhere in the middle it is still possible to persuade or at least encourage more careful thinking. But you have to be ready to take some pretty frank challenges to your own opinion ..
etc blah blah
trying to say hang in there and forgive us our trespasses. you certainly were not the problem.
Mcwop
For what its worth I don’t find your commentaqry to be offensive even if I don’t agree with many of your expressed opinions. I appreciate that you argue your points without over burdening the discussion with endless lists of numbers which by and large are often flexible, extrapolted or in some way variable and prone to error of measurement. That is the nature of economic measurement. When you see the same financial report being used to justify opposiing points of view you know there is little use to the numbers in setting significant policy.
On the other hand we know enough about the general trend of economic variables to make some decisions in our own minds. Those decisions regarding best policies obviously differ from one observer to the other. We know there is a significant budget deficit. We don’t need fine tuned measures to make that determination. We know there are several ways to approach that problem, if it is actually a problem and that is one ppoint of departure from general agreement. We know taxes rates on high levels of income are at historically low points. We know that certain types of income receive much more favored treatment than they had received in the recent past. We know that income distribution is seriously skewed and a small number of Americans garner a huge share of the income that our economy generates. We also know that military spending is through the roof. Do I have to have precise measures to make that statement? I don’t think so. We also know that a significant chunk of military spending has been going to support a war effort that the majority of the country seems not to agree with. I think it was buff pilot that asked why there seems little “war resistance” or demonstration of such resistance. I can’t answer that, but I suspect that it is because our dutiful MSM is not so liberal as some suspect.
So with all this knowledge, why can’t anyone come to the simple conclusion that the known deficit has a f—-d up tax policy and a decade old war effort to thank for its condition? On budget/off budget isn’t the real issue. Where is the income and wealth and where is the waste? Simple questions with obviousl answers, yet less than six months ago the Congress passed legislation continuing on this reckless approach. That same Congress and its paymasters are still screaming about chump change that is paid out to the working class in its elder years. Chump change that was accumulated into a vast fortune during their working lives and given over to the Treasury Dept for safe keeping. Is there really any rationale to discussing on and off budget as it may relate to the deficit? No way Jose,
but our bought and paid for Congress (which individually enjoys great personal wealth) sees fit to keep the discussion on that track. We are a bunch of asses for listening.
Mc wop
re the last paragraph of your letter here
i hope i did not call you a sheeple. i may have implied that i think you.. as i think everyone… is easily mislead by propaganda.
moreover folks form opinions “early” in life based on very little evidence but the opinions of those around them. and it is VERT hard to change those opinions. people will do any kind of twisting and denying and forgetting of contrary evidence in order to preserve their earlier opinions. this is not a moral fault, it is a simple fact of how human brains work.
it takes work to overcome this, and most people don’t have the time or motivation to do that work unless some catastrophic even forces them to. and then USUally their revised opinions are just as simplistic as the ones they have just given up. again this is not a moral fault… it is just the way brains work.
even mine.
we ALL hate taxes. and politicians are ALL liars. but taxes are necessary, and so are politicians. we have to work with that. with some luck we can control taxes and keep the politicians honest enough. it doesn’t help to just take an attitude that the only politicians we can trust are the ones promising to cut our taxes.
city leaders will ALWAYS take it for granted… republican or democrat… until the people tell them clearly… “no, that is not what i meant at all.”
this is hard miserable work, and, horribly, it is the kind of work it takes politicians to do.
your job, should you chose to accept it, is to try to keep at least your politicians on your side. and there it is critical that you know which side you are on.
Mc wop
re the last paragraph of your letter here
i hope i did not call you a sheeple. i may have implied that i think you.. as i think everyone… is easily mislead by propaganda.
moreover folks form opinions “early” in life based on very little evidence but the opinions of those around them. and it is VERY hard to change those opinions. people will do any kind of twisting and denying and forgetting of contrary evidence in order to preserve their earlier opinions. this is not a moral fault, it is a simple fact of how human brains work.
it takes work to overcome this, and most people don’t have the time or motivation to do that work unless some catastrophic event forces them to. and then USUALLY their revised opinions are just as simplistic as the ones they have just given up. again this is not a moral fault… it is just the way brains work.
even mine.
we ALL hate taxes. and politicians are ALL liars. but taxes are necessary, and so are politicians. we have to work with that. with some luck we can control taxes and keep the politicians honest enough. it doesn’t help to just take an attitude that the only politicians we can trust are the ones promising to cut our taxes.
city leaders will ALWAYS take it for granted… republican or democrat… until the people tell them clearly… “no, that is not what i meant at all.”
this is hard miserable work, and, horribly, it is the kind of work it takes politicians to do.
your job, should you chose to accept it, is to try to keep at least your politicians on your side. and there it is critical that you know which side you are on.Today, 7:23:15 AM PDT– Reply – Delete
Jack
I agree entirely. Sorry if I sometimes try to use numbers to make the same point.
I’m almost that scarey looking before my coffee in the morning cursed, but not enough to think to try it. AB on any day is enough after my coffee.
Well, I guess someone or more people went over the top. i was too busy at work today during the mid-afternoon and missed what ever the commotion was. I think that I’m pleased that Dan is now going to take a firmer stand on the content of comments, though I’m sorry to have missed what eve the fire works must have been.
Dan,
I’m available to assist if you need.
McWop is an honest interlocutor. Nough said by me.
Thanks all. This is helpful feedback, and a worthwhile check on how discussions are conducted. I wish I had more time to get in depth, and maybe someday I will.