More than an election message
George Lakoff offers his take on some of the mistakes Democrats are making currently in their overall message to the nation compared to the Republicans, with the backdrop and rulings from Rush Limbaugh on proper behavior for the Republican political leadership:
Why conservative lies_spread_and what progressives can do to fight them
Fit matters. The brain is a “best-fit” system. The better a new frame “fits” existing frames, the more effective it will be; that is, the more people will think, and make decisions, using that frame
For important domains of thought, like morality, religion, and politics, it is commonplace for people to have two inconsistent frame systems that inhibit each other… When you can shift back and forth on an issue, you are bi-conceptual on that issue. That is, you can frame the issue in two ways, using inconsistent higher-level frame systems.
The more the language of frame is repeated, the stronger the frame gets, along with the system the frame is in. And the weaker the frames of the contradictory system gets. The stronger high-level frames are, the more effective frames that fit them will be. And the less effective frames that contradict them will be.
…
Frames are conceptual; they are the elements of thought. Most thought is unconscious. Words activate frames. We are rarely conscious of the frames that are activated by the words we hear. Yet those frames are there in our brain circuitry, and more we hear the words, the stronger the frames get, even though we aren’t aware of it.
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Framing is the establishment of permanent (or long-term) high-level frames and systems of frames with the brains of voters…
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An important part of framing is the establishment of prototypes: social stereotypes, prototypes (typical case, ideals, nightmares, salient exemplars). Stereotypes are used in automatic reasoning and decision-making.
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This messaging system has existed and has been extended and strengthened over many years. Democrats have a few of these elements, but they are relatively ineffective, since they tend to view messaging as short-term and issue-based, rather than long-term and morally based. Democrats tend not to understand how framing works, and often confuse framing (which is deep, long-term, systematic, morality-based, and conceptual) with messaging (which is shallow, short-term, ad hoc, policy-based, and linguistic).
…
Democrats have a few of these elements, but they are relatively ineffective, since they tend to view messaging as short-term and issue-based, rather than long-term and morally based. Democrats tend not to understand how framing works, and often confuse framing (which is deep, long-term, systematic, morality-based, and conceptual) with messaging (which is shallow, short-term, ad hoc, policy-based, and linguistic).
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The “evidence” comes from polls and focus groups that test the normal “mainstream” language and logic, versus language and logic that is not “mainstream.” This is, naturally, conservative language and logic, because the conservative messaging system has systematically made it that way patiently over years. The pollsters therefore report that the “mainstream” of Americans prefer the conservative language and logic, and the policies that go with them. The pollsters then suggest moving to right to go to where the public is. They then construct and test messages that move enough to right to satisfy the “mainstream.” They also construct “good arguments.” If the “good arguments” activate the conservative worldview, the conservative position will just get stronger in the brains of the voters.
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To work long-term, progressive messaging must be sincere and direct, must reflect progressive moral values, and must be repeated. Progressive framing is about saying what you believe, telling the truth, and activating the progressive worldview already present in the minds of those who are partly conservative and partly progressive.
Framing is, of course, about policy, more than about messaging. What you say should go hand-in-hand with what you think and do.
And, of course, the best messaging requires an excellent communications system, or it won’t be heard. Progressives have the money to build such a system. The question is whether they understand the desperate need for such a system, and whether they have the will to build it.
Of course the comments on the post settled nothing. The post is long on intellectual type of thought and short on examples. But it is instructive to note that the energy behind a belief is not something that ebbs and flows simply by vote counts, it is something enduring demanding resources and effort on a daily basis by bearing witness in big and small ways.
And the confusion between ‘frame’ and ‘message’ is constantly displayed in comments when it comes to political messaging…especially in a forced two party system.
To illustrate, allowing the labels ‘pro-life’ and ‘pro-choice’ to define the abortion issue was a major mistake from my point of view. ‘Anti-choice’ keeps the label to the issue and does not allow ‘pro-life’ groups kudos for things not included in their agenda.
Lakoff uses the immigration debate as an illustration, but I wish he would develop better stories. The use of the term ‘illegals’ is a pejorative, but even Mitt Romney trusted illegals to come into his house in MA to take advantage of their work ethic. Americans often invite illegals into their homes and even leave them to walk around unattended, and ask them to care for their children, or cook their meals. There are some bad apples, but crime is down despite this invasion.
More to come.
Dan
sad to say.
the right manages the “framing” because they are professional advertisers. they don’t give a damn about truth. all they care about is making the sale.
the left, bless them, care a little more about truth, but they can’t work together to save their lives. they will, as we do, sit around and talk, occasionally think, but will let petty differences between them prevent any kind of meaningful cooperation, much less “messaging” to reach the public.
Rdan,
I read this twice and still not sure what your talking about. I think this is key:
“Framing is, of course, about policy, more than about messaging. What you say should go hand-in-hand with what you think and do.”
I don’t see that very much on the left, especially from progressives. When they do actually do this they get their ideas repudiated. Often. How many of the progressives will stand up and say what they really want: Large tax increases, more government control over almost everything, but especially government control over economic freedom. Increasing regulation to ‘nudge’ the little people into making the correct PC approved choices. And of course never actuallly placing any restrictions on the elite.
When was the last time anyone won election on these points? Maybe in SF or Berkely but not anyplace else. And when was the last time you had a politicain come out a say,”You rubes are too stupid to know whats good for you. Elect me and I’ll tell you where to live, how to eat and dress, and what to think.” Yet I’ve seen that beleif on so many progressive blogs and comment sections (even here at AB).
At least with the Tea Party types they want to win and leave you alone. Get gov out of your life. I heartily support that idea.
Lastly, the abortion issue, why chose not liking Pro-life vs anti-choice as oppossed to Pro-choice vs anti-life. Two sides of the same coin. In both cases the people involved went with the ‘Pro”, i.e. for something as oppossed to being against (anti) something.
And illegal aliens is the correct term. What else would you use? Hopefully not some orwellian newspeak that hides the facts. You going with passport-challenged? How about temporarily undocumented citizens? Yes, lets try to hide the facts.
Islam will change
There you go…framed nice and neatly and very Republicanly. Thanks for the summary and missing the point,
Then try to explain the point, please? All I got was the fact the left can’t seem to make its product palatible without framing or propaganda. Where’s Kharris when you need him?
What part of my diatrab, admittedly a little over-the-top, was not true?
And I said right up front I didn’t get your point…
Islam will change
The quote about the difference between framing and messaging is priceless. a friend and colleague — who is a Democrat and and who cites Lakoff as his authority — is deeply implicated in “messaging,” which he mistakes for framing. He think “framing” means putting out messages that resonate with people’s current way of thinking.
Is this not what I have been telling you about buffy all along? He is part of the propaganda mechanism of the right. More accurately, he represents the selfish, self-aggrandizing right, rather than the moralizing, intrusive right. That may have something to do with his prefered message about the non-right (there is no “left” in the US, kiddies), which has to do with intrusion.
KHarris,
You seem to be the self proclaimed propaganda expert. So can you explain Rdan’s post?
Or what I got wrong?
And what do you mean there is no left in the US?
Islam will change
Rdan,
Have you ever been shot in the face by an Illegal Alien? Well I have….so spare me the touchy-feely approach toward Illegal Immigration.
The reason why Progressives can’t expose what they really want and win, is because the end result has nothing to do with Freedom, and everything to do with Control, and the result is that the Progressives are left with trying to “Message” policy debates in a fashion that hides what the agenda is. Americans are consistantly fooled by Progressive “Messaging,” but when the rubber meets the road they roundly reject the destination, and they aren’t being told to do so by Republicans, they feel it based on their instincts.
This empire would not last as a “Progressive” culture for very long, and why Progressives don’t understand that is beyond me, but the evidence as to why it would not last, lies in the historical nature of the various cultures that make up America, and the absolute conflict with the Founding Documents…which the majority of Americas respect, believe in, and will fight to protect.
Jimi,
Sorry to hear you got your face shot off by an illegal, too bad you lost it to an ilegal, it should have got shot off fighting a terrorist saving your “liberty”.
What do you know about freedom?
The sound bite term is “liberty”, which is much less than freedom but which is in the “Declaration of Independence” along with absolute rights to property.
Here is the difference between “liberty” and freedom: I decide and define what is freedom, the talking heads define “liberty”. The talking heads decide what “liberty” is, that is why the tea party got started so they can be given their “liberty” and a warm social feeling that goes with being mindlessly ascribed to a group of blitherers.
Freedom is me, no concern for them, “liberty” is social norms whether they be UCC in Concord Ma in 1670 or the 21 st century definition.
Are you free?
Sheeple respond to framing and D’Touqville was right it has been all down hill since the frontiers were “civilized”.
Framing is about judging the opposition.
Framing is villifying them that don’t see that your pro life is so moral.
Framing is black and white and sheep herding the true believers against the libruls.
If I can make you believe you are better than the opposition I can convince you that the enemy is sub human and can be killed and brutilized and suffer atrocities…………….
Framing can make it okay to slaughter an abortion provider.
Buff
you pretty much proved Dan’s point. here you are, well “framed” and preserved in amber.
The only one I know saying the rubes are too stupid to take care of themselves is me. And I apply that description hearilty to the progressives as well as the people who think they are conservative while calling for their destroyer.
well, jimi
that explains why there is no talking to you.
i have been shot at by good ol’ amurrican idiots. that’s why i don’t have a lot of respect for them.
you are suffering from something like PTSD, which does restrict your ability to think. sorry about that. that is just a medical fact. not meant as an insult.
ilsm,
DO I really need to point out the cheers on the left when Cheney had a heart attack?
Or the fact that the two worst mass murderers in history are from the left?
You remind me of son of a ‘progressive” relative who always brings up some nuns who were killed in central america when Reagan was President as some sort of critique of Reagan and the US. Yet seems to totally forget the slaughter and murder under Che and other revolutionaries of the period as they tried (and succeeded in Cuba) to establish leftist tyrannies. And of course never mentions the Soviet Gulags….
So get a grip…
Islam will change
oh, well,
as buff reminds me, there is plenty of framing coming from “the left”, but only from a few groups with special interests (sorry, another expression framed by the right).
what i had in mind mostly was the “framing” of the social security “question.” this is actually a case of framing the problem so it has a solution, which is a matter of good mathematics not political propaganda… or is it?
the Petersons have framed the problem so it cannot be solved. And the left, far from offering a frame in which it can be solved, accepts the Peterson framing and plays right into it by offering the sort of ‘solutions’ the the Petersons are claiming, dishonestly, are already the way social security “is,” the very “facts” they are saying will doom us to fiscal destruction.
i used to think this was a failure of mathematical intelligence. but after a brief encounter with some experts on the left, i can see it is mostly a matter of ego.
So, think back to Harry Frankfurter’s “On Bullshit”. (I love that piece.) coberly’s point about advertisers gets to the heart of Harry’s story – Harry uses advertising as an clear example of bullshit. Harry notes that for a bullshitter, there is no point to worrying about whether what one says is true. The point is whether it serves its purpose. That’s where the sort of dishonest caricature that buffy indulges in here does its work.
Buffy, presumably not a lefty himself, cannot actually know what lefties think or want. (I’m setting aside the fact that the US doesn’t have a left, except as a label slapped on anything non-right.) He can only know what they say and do. Buffy declares that the left wants things that he admits the left is does not generally say it wants. Now, his argument is that lefties don’t say or do what they want to say and do, because it causes them to fail. So the evidence is, by buffy’s own admisstion, that the left doesn’t say or do the things he claims they want to say and do. Buffy is ignoring the only evidence there is, and inserting a fairly villianous caricature in place of the evidence.
So, at this point, we need to take a quick gander at the anti-intellectual element of buffy’s view. By the way, I don’t mean what buffy would like me to mean in the term “anti-intellectual”. I do not mean “opposed to intellectuals or intellectual discussion”. Many on the right revel in spurning “eggheads” and “ivory tower types”. It’s part of their pose. What I mean by anti-intellectual is a rejection of fact and logic, a preference for bullshit and argumentation. Buffy’s claim to “know” that lefties want things that they won’t say they want is contrary to evidence, but that’s OK, cause evidence doesn’t matter. Buffy’s pose as both tough-minded and pure serves as a contrast to the badness he attributes to lefties. This pose is in large part a shibboleth meant for the rest of the bullshit congregation. For all we know, buffy beats his family, cheats on his taxes and teases cripples. The point of the pose is not to reveal one’s actual character. The pose serves as a signal to others on the right who adopt similar poses. Think back to how many of the church-going, family-values-trumpeting accusers of President Clinton were actually adulterers themselves. Hyde broke up a marriage. Burton is a serial adulterer. It is the pose that matters, not the behavior.
Anti-intellectualism is a standard. The various poses that right wing propagandists adopt serve to announce that a disregard for fact and logic is OK – better than OK, in fact. Then, when the facts are against you, well your side knows that facts aren’t what really matters. You’ve all agreed to that from long ago. You all get together and argue by assertion, understanding, as Lakoff does, that a large part of the public will be swayed by hearing the same thing over and over. That’s why, like a broken record, buffy has been claiming that Obama “owns” an economy that was driven into the ditch by his predecessor, right from inauguration day – before, in fact. Say it over and over if you want it to stick.
Now here’s the problem for friendly, polite, honest people. You try to have a conversation with buffy, and CoRev and the squad of others who partake of this dishonest framing exercise that Lakoff describes, as if the conversation is harmless. You treat buffy as if he is offering a legitimate point of view. When you let his calculated nonsense go unchallenged, just for the sake of argument, his nonsense is granted weight. buffy just lied about the way things are, in asserting that there is some significant […]
buff
i disagree with kharris. i don’t think you are a part of the propaganda mechanism. i think you are a victim of it. i perfectly understand your fear about loss of liberty to an intrusive “left.” what i don’t think you are aware of is that the “right” has no intention of leaving you alone after “saving” you from the do gooders.
there is a way that neighbors can work together without sharing their bedrooms.
Coberly,
That’s Rich!
You can’t presude your political enemy into your own belief system, so you drop back and punt, and claim that your political enemy is handicapped and is not up to the challenge.
“It is not a fair fight…therefore I win?”
I can only dream of being that naive and ignorant.
buff,
“DO I really need to point out the cheers on the left when Cheney had a heart attack?”
He did? It escaped me…………….. that anyone on the subject would cheer is just a porogressive thing to do.
Hey if you say so I believe you. Not I am not a tea partier nor a subscriber to FOX news.
“Or the fact that the two worst mass murderers in history are from the left? “
Hitler and Ghenghis Khan………….. “are from the left”?
Or Tojo, Chiang, …….”are from the left”?
Nero and Caligiula “are from the left”?
Hey how about Curt LeMay a leftie? His orders on two days out did almost anyone in histroy for short order mass slaughter.
illegal aliens is as accurate as calling them pre-naturalized citizens. So I propose we adopt the latter description.
coberly,
Well after 6 years of an R president and congress the fears about a rollback of Roe seems to be widely misplaced. Other than that I don’t see your point about bedrooms.
I don’t believe gays have a RIGHT to be married. But we had a large discussion over negative vs. positive rights before. Gays can live together, have union ceremonies et al for all I care. They just don’t have a right to be married. Change the law and I’m all for it. (personally I think they should be allowed to marry by a change in the law through congress).
Otherwise the do-gooders can be ignored. They mostly want to leave me alone.
The left on the other hand actively does want to control everything I read, see and speak. And they are militant about it. The left has already the brownshirts in the SEIU and ACORN. And the left is absolutely horrible on economic freedom. Plus you idea that most people are sheep and must be led by their betters, as a philosophy pretty much sums up the left.
Right now, the left is far more a threat to my freedom and liberty than the right has ever been.
And what part of my diatrab was incorrect?
Islam will change
coberly,
And what part of my statements was factually incorrect?
Otherwise I have no idea what you just said, nor what Rdan posted. You guys always tell me this is a reality based blog. So where did I get away from reality?
Or does reality scare the left that bad?
Islam will change
Kharris,
Name one thing I have said on this thread that’s factually inaccurrate?
Otherwise, nice long post of bullshit.
(apologies for profanity Rdan).
(And I was quoting are esteemed Mike Kimmel about Obama owning it, BTW)
Islam will change
Islam,
Would you just spit out exactly what you are trying to say? There is no information in that comment that leads me in any direction.
Your definition of freedon compared to mine, and your defintion of Liberty compared to mine is going to be completely different, so you have to explain yourself before the question can actually be answered?
Freedom:
individual power to act or speak or think without externally imposed restraints exemption: immunity from an obligation or duty
By this definiton my answer is “NO!” and neither are you…..so what exactly are getting at?
Who are the two leftie mass murderers?
What made them lefities?
ilsm will not change
Horton,
“Illegal Alien” is the terminology used within all Immigration legislation written and enforced by the Federal Government….what excatly is not accurate about that terminology?
I agree that progressives need to learn how to lockstop and work the long term mesage and frame their views in terms of morality. Single payor is consistent with having a right to not die for want of reasonable and necessary medical care. Social Security is a moral imperative because as a society our elderly parents should not starve or not be able to afford a place or even worry about their next meal after what should be a lifetime of work.
Dems have to ignore all the identity politics and BS immigration debate and argue for meat and potato issues and forget all this rainbow bullshit. Immigration debate for a democrat is about the american who’s ability to m ake a living wage has been precluded by an inexhaustible supply of third world labor thattyhe fed has been complicit in allowing to compete w/ citizens for work.
The problem with Dems is they either aren’t progressive, don’t have the intelligence to know that their strength is that they are the party of FDR or don’t have the integrity and strength of character to argue this way in public.
And that american capitalism has grown healthy prior to 1980 when its role was to serve the middle class and building tvhe infrastructure for people and industry which does trickle up and down. Fed subsidy has been essential to the growth and development of our modern economy. Anyone who argues otherwise has no understanding of history or the present. Libertarians are proposing a world that has never existed. They might as well be arguing for the mass production of unicorns.
We have allowed legislation and economic policy to be soley controlled by the financial classes is immoral and undemocratic. That is what has caused the misallocation of capital and the creation of an unsustainable economic structure benefitting only the ultra rich at the great cost of everyone else including most industry.
A democrat has to say these things over and over again to readjust the frames. They have to teach, take risks and lead, like men.
Can I have permission to cross-post the at The Onion?
Islam,
The term “Left” is just a label…call them “Book Ends” if it makes you feel better, but it is just a method of distiguishing the difference in Political Ideologies and/or strategies.
Answer your own question…What makes this a “slightly LEFT of center” blog?
Sure little john. Send me a note as well.
I can’t do justice to the thread as a conversation today. I will try tonite.
buffy,
Dishonesty takes many forms. In this case, a constant repetition of “Obama owns it”, it’s “Obama’s economy” and so on, based on what you claim to be a quote, without attribution, is a great way to provide yourself deniability while doing exactly what Lakoff describes. Repeat, repeat, repeat.
Otherwise, take a stroll through what I wrote. I already pointed out the dishonesty of claiming that people want to do and say what they will not do and say for whatever nonsense reason you can make up. If they won’t say it, and won’t do it, and you aren’t one of them to know that you think it, it is plain dishonesty of the strawman.
You did not say “Obama is a muslim” so you didn’t lie outright. Not lying outright is a different thing from being honest. Deniability is a method of avoiding being caught in a lie, while being dishonest. Kuddos to you. You have real skill at it.
“Why conservative lies spread, and what progressives can do to fight them.”
If that statement were true, then the answer is very clear and simple. Progressive should be able to present the facts that counter the lies, and since the Progressive movement has complete control over the Media, School Systems, most of the State’s and Federal Government the Conservative Movement and the Republican Party would quickly be led to imminent collapse.
Since that has not happend, what does it tell us about the original statement?
And BTW….If your going to throw out that talking point….don’t you think it is only fair to point out some Conservative Lies?
jimi,
ilsm will not change.
To the left leaners, the good of the many matters. Most “slightly LEFT of center” are not beholden to the rich or the few ……..
At the expense of universal health care versus insurance cabal profits.
Or the war profiteering machine against the class of food the poor and elderly might get.
And the leftie is concerned that the firefighters, police and teachers are laid off while the War Machine is rolling war profits into buying congress for more irrational militarism at the expense of the US economy.
Or that militarism helped create the US’ structural deficit because profits on war are concentrated in the few who buy congress at the harm of the many.
Or the idea that marginal tax rates can rise and income taxes on the rich increased for the benefit of the population.
The right, the good of the few wealthy is what matters. The righties enjoy being beholden.
It is like when Spock died to save Enterprise, the left unstood that.
ilsm will not change.
Buff
I just don’t see this conspiracy by the Left to Control your life. I absolutely see a conspiracy by the Right to contol my life. Mostly by guaranteeing that me and my neighbors, fellow sheep, can never get together to stop the Big Man with the Big Money from making our lives nasty, poor, brutal, and short.
When I talk about the inability of the average person to manage his life without guidance from a leader, I should not be saying anything you find strange. Even Ayn Rand believes that. And I only offered it as a way to think about the relation between the rich and the poor. The rich should feel that they have an obligation to see that the poor do not descend into utter degradation. Unfortunately the rich like degradation. Makes them feel good about themselves. I am NOT talking about gummint programs to force feed the poor by taking money from the rich. I am talking about weaning the rich from their Randian stupidity and recognize that yes, indeed,the poor are not as capable (whatever that means) of creating, or even finding, “jobs” as the rich are… by definition.
As anyone who runs a farm can tell you, farm labor offers the farmer a range of abilities. You find the work that the particular person can do. You find it for him. You don’t wait for him to find it himself. That’s basically all I am saying.
I don’t give myself airs about “betters.” I have met my betters in black skin leaning on a shovel in a ditch. But if I am running the farm I might give that particular fellow a job he would never think to get for himself, because part of being the boss is making good use of my “resources.”
and Frankly I don’t give a damn about gays “right to marry.” one way or the other. it isn’t any of my business.
jimi
like i said, didn’t mean to insult you. i’ll try to keep talking, persuading, but i will also tell you that most of the time you sound beyond helping to me.
that person who shot you was a person. lots of people get shot by people who are not illegal immigrants. i have known illegal immigrants who were decent people just trying to make a living for their kids. but i have never been shot by one so i can be a little more “objective” than it looks like you can.
buff
i tried to address this in other comments. let me know if i got through.
sgetz
disposed to agree. but like a typical leftie i dont like “lockstep,” and will insist that Social Security is NOT welfare, which it would be the way you described it.
of course what is breaking my heart these days is that after fighting to get heard, i find that “the left” WANTS social security to be welfare. because they are too stupid to understand that the only reason it has worked so far is because it is NOT. and it has taken the Petersons 20 years…. and the deaths of most of the people who knew… to convince people that it IS, including “the left” so now they are in a position to destroy it, while “the left” wrings its hands and cries for “more welfare.”
kharris
good point about proving that they are evil because they won’t say they are evil.
otherwise my faith in buffy being the victim of the propaganda rather than a conscious conspirator remains. i have just known too many people … otherwise decent people … like him. and i have encounter my share of mindless lefties, and, sadly, highly educated folk who never actually thought about anything in their lives.
ilsm,
Hitler, Khan, Tojo, Chiang, Nero and Caligiula COMBINEd don’t ceom close to either Staln or Mao.
Give it up….
Islm,
“the left leaners” – “not beholden to the rich”
Corporate America and the elite supported the most “Left” president in history, who now seems to be in their pocket. The talking point about about wealth being represented by the “Right” only has been debunked, and has been since 2008, and most who follow politics closely knew it wasn’t true well before that.
“And the leftie is concerned that the firefighters, police and teachers are laid off while the War Machine is rolling war profits into buying congress for more irrational militarism at the expense of the US economy.”
No a big fan of the Tenth Admendment I see? This topic is a State level issue not a Federal issue, so federal money going to fight war has nothing to do with State Level money funding your local “Fuzz.”
“Or that militarism helped create the US’ structural deficit because profits on war are concentrated in the few who buy congress at the harm of the many.”
If it was a War of Choice, then the Left has had their opportunity to fix it as they see fit, they chose the path they are on (both before the War started, and since they have had total power) and this was a clear decision of the “Left’s” leadership, and if the American “Left” does not like the decisions their leadsership has made, then they are the one’s to blame…not the right.
It is not true that an unmanagable Structural Deficit was handed to the left, Democrats have controlled Congress since early 2007. It is true that Republicans spent in a fashion that their supporters do not subscribe to, and that was represented thru the election process of 2006 and 2008. It is true that the spending required to fullfill the agenda of the “Left” has not only dwarfed previos spending, but has eliminated the possiblity for the “Left” to blame the anyone but themselves.
Military Keyensian spending does concentrate money in the elite hands, but not only their hands. Many jobs created and saved, and many new buisness’ created and saved, the most important factor is that the money stays in the country.
“Or the idea that marginal tax rates can rise and income taxes on the rich increased for the benefit of the population.”
Joe Biden told us that “everyone must have skin in the game.” Who exactly is fronting the tax bill for the United States? If you belileve that the wealthy should pay more…….fine, but then don’t turn around and whine about the consequences of doing so.
sgetz,
“Single payor is consistent with having a right to not die for want of reasonable and necessary medical care. “
Define reasonable and necessary. What will poor granny die from that rich granny writes a check for and lives another year?
Social Security is not a moral imperative. THEY ALREADY PAID FOR IT….
And you can count the number of progressives who want to do anything about illegal immigration on one hand, with change. Dems are openly counting on that demographic to win elections.
Islam will change
jimi,
Facts, a ways above you defined freedom as licentiousness.
Did you mean to do that or do you think freedom is really licentious?
The problem with arguing; some people frame the defintions on terms which attempt to put the other side on some unreal defensive.
Freedom includes responsibility like everything else a sentient being does and it is acting responsibly to one’s self with no one defining that responsibility.
But if you are beholding to the man can you be free?
If you have standing army pillaging your economy can you be free? Yes of course, but why have to fight it?
If you have the folk on Wall St losing trillions and too big to fail is them running free? Casting the working sap into the gutter.
Being free is not running wild.
Unless you define free as lacking morals……………………..
Oh!
It is moral to be a good slave, otherwise you are immoral.
Is that Calvinism, that God selects owner and slave?
ilsm,
Hitler, Khan, Tojo, Chiang, Nero and Caligiula COMBINED don’t come close to either Stalin or Mao.
Give it up….
Coberly,
It is not about being “Objective”……….Why don’t you tell us exactly what “Illegal” means.
Just becuase they are generally law abiding and nice people doesn’t mean that there is not a problem.
Your so naive….you framed the arguement within your own belief system…….Why do I know that?
Becuase I never said where “Illegal Alien” was from who shot me…….Pathetic!
Kharris,
Mike’s entire books premise is on the fact that the President owns the economy from the second he said “I do.” Or have you missed the last few years of his posts??? Obama and the Dems own the economy. How’s he doing BTW?
You will also note the fact that the economy started coming off the rails after the 2006 election of the Dems into controll of both the house and senate….
I have no idea where your coming from for the rest of your blathering. Birthers are just as insane as the 9/11 conspiracy theorists.
Come back to me when you can actually attack the facts…
Islam will change
And don’t forget the linky!
coberly,
Show what facts I missed or got wrong….
Islam will change
coberly,
Thats why the left has no power, its too individualistic and it allows its power to be dilluted because it seeks to be too inclusive and nuanced. Thats a luxury that can’t be afforded. If your making a semantic argument then fine but only reason thats necessary is because the left has ceded framing discourse to the right and now has to avoid using the words the right has demonized. So I don’t argue w/ you on chosing the safer terms for message control but progrssives still have to work on long term framing of issues. However, if i’ve missed your point, Can we not argue morality to supportr the notion that our society shouldn’t allow the weakest to die in the street?
So If SS is not “welfare” then what is it?
Buff,
Don’t forget Pol Pot!
Buff,
Reasonable and necessary to sustain life not every medical technology contemplatable. But I don’t want to get into that. the general prop was the message.
Social security is not paid for, its an ongiong cash flow social safety net. you don’t have an account that you pay into during your life to drawn upon when you reach 65. I know the right wants to further that conception of SS. So your just wrong on that assertion.
Your right on the dems being stupid on immigration but thre are a variety of reasons for that. Courting voters among recent immigrants pops is just one reason and I fear not the the predominant one. I think they want to court the businesss vote and undercut unskilled labor. Thats the reason they wouldn’t support the card check legislation either. Many dems are just pro biz, supply side social centrists without a cultural axe to grind.
Islm,
No, as I said, your definition and mine are going to vary…and that’s fine, I just picked one out of a dictionary, and answered the question according to that definition. Of course, that has nothing to do with reality, because the question can only be answered case by case and with specifics.
The bottom line is, your definiton of Freedom may not be freedom to me, and in the end we will both be forced to compromise….and that’s fine too!
Jimi,
Clinton was the biggest friend to big business dems and banking the dems every produced and and so is Obama. However, there is nothing ‘left” about him. Thats a fraud told by the right. Obama is pro big finance and thats why he continued the same disasterous treasury and fed programs initiated under Bush. If anyone paid attention to the people he surrounded himself with when he assembled his cabinet Summers, geitner, bernanke. Its many of the same guys with the same ideology that ran the policy under clinton which was pro big finance and business signing the futures modernization act and killed the last vestiges of the firewall between big banks and speculative finanance under glass stegal when the allowed the citi merger. Both of those moves made it possible for the AIG debacle, warping of the roles of Fannie/Freddie and the creation and sale of derivative financial products like credit default swaps and CDS’s.
Obama left? His healthcare plan is that tax dollars go to buying private insurance for the uninsured, its a massive subsidy and strengthening the entrenchment of private insurance industry. He then told the pharma and medical device industrys he won’t allow the fed gov to negotiate a volume discount. No, the tax payor will take 10 billion of those knee braces and would like to pay full retail. Can’t get more pro biz than that
So your damn right in suggesting they are both the parties of big biz and Nader was wrong when he said the only diff between dems and repub is the speed at which they hit their knees before big business. Either of them cant hit their knees fast enough.
Buff, nice job. I’ve stayed out because I’ve been working another AGW thread a Econbrowser. Kharris, comes in makes a sly sneak attack with really, really well written messageless personal attacks masquerading as responses. He usually then runs for the hills. At least today he has come back.
Basically folks, this framing issue is not about how the message is presented but what the message entails.
Buff, nice job. I’ve stayed out because I’ve been working another AGW thread at Econbrowser. Kharris, comes in makes a sly sneak attack with really, really well written messageless personal attacks masquerading as responses. He usually then runs for the hills. At least today he has come back.
Basically folks, this framing issue is not about how the message is presented but what the message entails.
Sgetz,
It is not just his Health Care Plan that makes him “Left.” Although, I think your perspective misses you from seeing how the Health Care is a cog in the “Left’s” agenda.
Forcing people to buy private health insurance is only good for the private health insurance industry on the surface. In the long run it bankrupts them, and the plan for single payer stays on track.
Anyway….what makes Obama far left of any other American President is the Social Justice Agenda with the emphasis on Wealth Redistribution, which in the big picture, is exactly what the Health Care Bill (refer to Obama’s appointee on Medicare-Medicaid), Cap & Trade, Immigration, and Financial Reform is all about, and there is no question that Obama himself not only supports those efforts, he is driving the bus behind the scenes.
Sgetz,
“Many dems are just pro biz, supply side social centrists without a cultural axe to grind.”
Look…not trying to get under your skin…you seem like a reasonable person, but my god…how can that statement be true when all we hear from the Left is class, race, and gender warfare?
We are in one of the worst financial crisis this country has ever seen, and we have spent a tremendous amount of time in the public air debateing Gay Marriage, and Gays in the Military, not to mention how Racist Tea Partiers are, and how the greedy evil Capitalists have ruined the World.
All this comes from the Democrat Island does it not?
buff,
Mass murder!!!
Stalin, it was mass murder what he did to the Nazis’ SS and Wehrmacht, and Mao killed a lot of fascists!!
Vinegar Joe Stillwell was howling mad at Chiang for leaving the Japanese alone and garnering his US arms to use on Mao who was training the PLA on the Japanese Imperial Army. You know how that ended.
You should filter your propaganda. There are bad people all over the place and the targets of the nukes your B-52’s used to carry may or may not have been as bad as the legends made up so that B-52 pilots would drop their thermo- nuclear loads.
What kind of person for whatever reason would drop a few megatons? On cities or the bases nearby?
SAC got around it by having “Peace is Our Profession” on the footer of their letter head.
Those Russians, and Ukrainians sure were evil letting Stalin and his crowd kill fascists.
Okay to nuke them all.
jimi,
This is truth, war profiteer “spending does concentrate money in the elite hands,”
“Military Keyensian spending” Keynes had no use for war profiteers pillaging the consumption sectors.
War profiteering is expensive welfare for the wealthy , and the employees who are over paid and not productive.
Not Keynesian!!
This is pure blither:
“……..but not only their hands. Many jobs created and saved, and many new buisness’ created and saved, the most important factor is that the money stays in the country.”
The important thing is the money is concentrated to buy congress to waste money that should have gone elsewhere.
It is undue influence of the concentration in the conglomerates and the over paid unproductive tech workers which is costing the US job shipped to China.
It is now pet food for granpa versus the concentrated economic power of the war profiteers.
War profiteering will lead to the want for blue jeans and other staples of modernity which destroyed the Soviets being waged against the US.
ilsm will not change
jimi
and did i ever say where the illegal alien was from?
i am guessing, but i suspect you fill in the blanks and then believe sincerely that the other guy said what you “heard.”
i never said there was not a problem. i just said that not having been shot by an illegal alien, i suspected i could be more objective than someone who had.
of course i framed the argument within my own belief system. that’s the way the human brain works. what you should try to be careful of is letting someone else frame HIS argument in YOUR belief system, because that is how he fools you into thinking you agree with him.
Buff
i don’t know but i been told there were no cheers from the left, but Rush said there was.
This reminds me of all the spitting on veterans after Vietnam. didn’t happen.
sqetz
it’s insurance for workers paid for by the workers themselves. it is not from taxes on the rich. it is not “government” money.
the government runs the program, but it uses the workers money to do so. and it’s function is essentially to manage the insurance via a system called pay as you go with wage indexing.
welfare is when you show up at the welfare office and say you need help. they examine your assets and decide if you are worthy. then they tax the rich guy to give you a dime.
does that help you see the difference. i am not talking sematics here. i am talking a real difference in what is done and how it is done. a difference you are all too likely to feel when you retire. of course you won’t know what “insurance” felt like so you won’t know you are being screwed. you’ll think you are getting a gift from the rich man. and you will be so grateful. sitting there in the welfare office waiting for the proctologist.
Coberly,
“i suspected i could be more objective than someone who had.”
How could you ever come to that conclusion? Pure Arrogance!
doesn’t mean i don’t think we need welfare from time to time and in some cases. but as the way of handling the normal way of paying for retirement… no.
sgetz
you are dead wrong when you say “you don’t have an account that you pay into…” what the hell do you think your payroll “tax” is? and yes, you get to draw it out, with interest, when you reach 65, or 62.
Under US law illegal immigrant parents may be seperated from their legal children and deported to their country of origin. The progressive frame that comes to mind is that there is a great moral and ethical failure for those that choose, support and approve of efforts to break up a family. It is despicable to break up a family this or any other way. Once the basic tenant of family is foresaken there are no bounds to any extreme actionable view that may be entertained by those who believe it is acceptable to break up the family unit.
Put simply, US law should not force the break up of a family.
Buff
You have mostly seemed like a reasonable man but this?????
“The left has already the brownshirts in the SEIU and ACORN.”
The union of maids, janitors and cooks and an organization that stands up for low income communities and organizes voter registration is a THREAT!!?? Wow you have drunk the koolaid. Yep those poor people are fucking up the world left and right. Man….. get a grip.
Jimi loves him the federal gubmint when it labels people they way he likes!!
MarkJ
i agree wholeheartedly. I don’t know that it is a “framing” issue, as merely another illustration that “the law” can be used as an instrument of evil, I’d like to think it would be sufficient to tell people what happens when they get all righteous about deporting “illegals.” But my guess is that we’d be shouted down by the Limbaughs.
The failure of the left may not be so much in failing to “frame” the issues to their advantage, as failing to agree on a message they can get behind and take to the public. Please note, that is not the same as all agreeing about what is THE most important. It’s about agreeing what will likely carry the argument. And putting resources into telling that story.
Coberly
All people receiving SS payments haven’t paid into. My grandmother, when she was alive, received it and never worked outside the home. You are making a semantic argument and I think I see why. And your correct is saying its not need based. Its just that your facts are a little off. SS is a program designed to promote social welfare or well being that we all pay into and receive benefits. Not sure what point your making besides your a little pissed with how the right frames programs as welfare for the lazy poor.
SS isn’t insurance, don’t know where your getting that.
Dems aren’t left or progressive. With the exception of Bernie Sanders from Vernmont, I think. There is no “left” in congress. The only person on the “left” in the media is Katrina VanDen hueval and even she tempers her progressive comments when on tv. or maddow. Commentators speak of the left but there is no left in mainstream american politics or media. The accepted and discussed political spectrum goes from right to moderate centrist right w/ some liberal social issue discussion (Ala gay marriage/military.abortion)
I totally agree that the media discussion is dominated by BS discussions you refer to. Thats why I don’t watch tv media. I’m long past frustration. I don’t think regular people care at all about gay anything or tea party, it just doesn’t really affect most people. media specializes in superficial inconsequential crap.
People care about the fed bailing out banks, failed job policy, afforable healthcare and the declining standard of living and no one covers that. they might mention healthcare or one of these topics or discuss superficially some proposed legislation but regular people’s concerns aren’t reflected in the media or by our politicians. they don’t explore these issues.
When I write ” “Many dems are just pro biz, supply side social centrists without a cultural axe to grind.” The facts support that idea, dems aren’t progressive or left, they don’t advance policies that help working people or enagage in discussions of issues that concern regular people. They, by and large, support giving the majority of fed money to banks on th emisguided incorrect assumption that it will trickle down to the rest of us. Republicans share this notion of econoic ideology. This used to be called reaganomics but now its largely a settled issue among the entire political spectrum that its the wisest course toward broad based economic growth.
Coberly,
My point was that its not an individual account but a large aggregated pool of money for all of us.
coberly,
Then you were lied too. It was practically defening in some places…
And I flew with two officers who were spit on coming back from Vietnam (and one was also assaulted). So yes, it did happen.
Islam will change
Cheney is at about the same moral level as Saddam Hussein. He’s jealous that Saddam had all that power to punish people the way he wishes he could. Of that I have no doubt. It will not be a sad day for humanity when Cheney dies. I lose no sleep wishing Cheney gets his due, either in an international court or at St Peters gate. He’s scum.
Dale, this is a scarily false comment. Wishing away bad actions of your cohorts doen’t work. don’t go to a VFW or Am. Legion group and make that statement. You might be surprised by the reaction.
buff corev
unless you saw it yourself, i’ll say it didn’t happen. because my cohorts were trying to save the lives of the troops. we were not spitting at anyone.
what your cohorts have convinced themselves they saw because they heard about it in an emotional condition may be something else entirely.
funny that its called “Old Age, Survivors, and Disability Insurance” then.
you have reached the point where it is getting hard for me to be polite.
sgetz
your grandma either paid in, or she was the widow of someone who paid in.
i am trying to get you to understand the facts. semantics is not my game.
whereas you become just incoherent when you say “it’s not need based… we all pay into and receive benefits” as an argument that people are receiving benefits they haven’t paid for.
sgetz
when you go to collect your benefits you will find they are based on what you paid in. not the “aggregated pool”
except in the same way any insurance is an “aggregated pool.”
Jimi
you might be right about your last paragraph, but someone else might think that some kind of universal health care was necessary to the security of the country, after all, if the “your money or your life” bif business takes half of the money of the rich while the poor get sick and die needlessly, that is going to affect the strength of the country.
or you could ask yourself this: suppose there is an epidemic of, oh, say, ebola. and suppose further that there is a vaccine that is, oh, say, 80% effective. so the government reasons, if we can cut the rate of infection by 80%, then the 20% of the people who would still get the infection even though vaccinated would become 4%.
in other words, getting vaccinated yourself reduce your chances of getting sick to one in five. if everyone gets vaccinated your chances go down to one in 25.
now are you going to agree that everyone should be required to get vaccinated?
this is the kind of “freedom” vs the other guys rights that is what government is all about.
MarkJ,
The U.S. Law does no such thing. It is the family itself that has chosen to be broken. If the family does not want to be broken, then the kids leave with the parents.
If it upsets you that family’s are broken…tough..I don’t care…shame on the parents for breaking our laws and subjecting their childern to such situations.
Put the blame where it belongs!
Jimi
I don’t know what the options of the parents are. But i have heard too many stories of “illegals” being held in jails for long periods of time to believe they are not true.
We could have humane laws, and we could have humane judges. But I hear too many judges twist themselves into knots justifying inhumanity and calling it “the law.”
There you go…. framed with a “since.” which you appear to think that “since” means fact. You are surrounded by lefties…
Jimi,
There is no “left” and therefore no agenda. I think the discussion of this nefarious “left” is language used by conservative commentators to create a booogeyman to energize and coalecse their base.
I have the polar opposite view of what will occur. Forcing people to buy private health insurance is only good for the private health insurance industry on the surface. I agree that its only good for private insurance industry but it will cost the fed way too much money, have poor health outcomes and then it will support the right’s logic that “See, the gov can’t do anything right” which will ruin the possibility of single payor.
What wealth distribution is Obama engaged in? some facts please?
Sgetz,
Well if you support Single Payer….I’ve just learned everything I need to know about you….and why you have such a deep lack of understanding about American politics.
Rdan,
After the shift in power from Republican majorities to Democrat super majorities, we were told by you guys that the Conservative Movement would struggle just to exist in the future.
The reality, only 18 months later, ended up being that is was the Progressive Movement that would struggle to exist in the future….so please forgive me…when after being right time after time…calling B.S. on the idea that Conservative=Liar and Progressive=Angel.
Coberly,
Then how do you explain lifelong housewives, like my grandmother, who receive lifelong SS monthly benefits and never paid a dime in?
Jimi,
I’m not insulting you, I’ve just asked you to provide facts to support your allegation, Aren’t you capable of supporting your argument? or is it because your just parroting what you hear on fox news and you don’t, in fact, have any facts to support your argument?
coberly,
illegal alliens are detained while they fight to avoid deportation – that’s what your hearing (correctly). Otherwise if they don’t fight the deportation order they are gone fairly quickly (like in 2-3 days at most, usually the same day). Almost all lose the fight but the lawyers can stretch it out (and increase their fees) for quite some time.
Jimi is correct here. Its the parents decision to break up families, not the judges. Same with long stays in the detention areas. We have humane laws and people are sent back pretty efficeintly. In some cases they have had ICE agents catch them one night, deport them, just to catch the same guy the next night.
I know your not an open borders guy, so what’s inhumane by sending them back?
Islam will change
Buff
to be perfectly honest with you i do not know of my own knowledge what is the truth here. i know what i have heard. and while i believe the media lies all the time, i simply cannot imagine people chosing to stay in jail in order to avoid being deported.
jimi
i guess its fine if you want to argue with the other crazies. i know i never thought for a second that the conservative movement was dead. except when Nixon decided to sell the Republican soul to get the Southern vote. see, i already knew that when you dance with the devil, the devil calls the tune.
not to bend your head too much… ike and nixon were conservatives. since then the repubs have been insane. that’s what happened to “conservatives.” but i didn’t expect the insane right to go away because they lost an election. i am not so naive as the insane left.
Sgetz,
I have gone thru the same senerio with several people here at AB. I have shown it, proved it, yelled it from the roof tops (and BTW if you hang out here long enough there are some here who opening advocate). There is no one single piece of evidence to help you see it, and it takes along time and lot of work to lay it all out for you, and to be quite frank…..if you can’t even meet me half way….and are going to require absolute every detail explained to you…then I’m sorry you just aren’t crediable, or your to far behind for me to catch you up.
I’m not going to accuse you of being a “Fill In,” and if your not, then you don’t need to worry about it, and if you are, then you know that you are just playing the typical game as your masters have instructed you to, which are circular arguements nuanced and designed to divide and conquer debates, where the political opponent has to prove each indivdual piece of evidence while the original arguement can easily be conterfitted, or where the original arguement gets lost. (Reference Rules for Radicals)
It is clear as a day to me, and I suspect if we did the dance your gonna find that you already know it to be true, and are just in denial, which is the typical position of many who do not subscribe in the enjoyment of the Political BloodSport.
But since I do not recognize you name: I’ll give you a hint of where I will take the Debate.
1.) Cloward-Piven and the Deficit spending & Stimulus
2.) “I believe in Single Payer System” and the many quotes attacking the Capitalist System-Barack Obama-Barney Frank-Nancy Pelosi
3.) The realtionships of The Democratic Socialists Party and the Democratic Party
4.) Health Care Bill-Cap & Trade-Immigration-GM-IMF-Student Loans
5.) Obama Czars, and his past relationships
etc..etc..etc.
sgetz
like i said before, her husband paid in. it was insurance that covered her as well as him. try not to be any more stupid than you have to be.